160 and FLAC I can do, with good equipment. (I've done it before, and on my own equipment. New standardized environment, maybe not.)
At 256 Kbps MP3 and FLAC.. I can't tell.
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Should You Buy A Sound Card?
- Thread starter Megalith
- Start date
160 and FLAC I can do, with good equipment. (I've done it before, and on my own equipment. New standardized environment, maybe not.)
At 256 Kbps MP3 and FLAC.. I can't tell.
I've spent some time with the Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 software now to figure out what was going on.
It will only work for virtual surround with a supported on-board audio codec. (ALC892 in my case)
With any other output device - even my Sound Blaster Z - it only acts as a stereo device.
So you can use all of the processing effects: the equalizer, crystalizer, smart volume etc. but enabling "surround" with anything other than the Realtek codec is just a stereo enhancement, not a downmix from 5.1/7.1 for true positional audio.
With the Realtek drivers installed, it's possible to use the "Stereo Mix" recording device and Windows' "Listen to this Device" option to forward the downmixed audio to another sound device such as an S/PDIF or HDMI output.
I only tested to see if this worked - and it did - I did not test the quality or latency of doing this.
In addition, with the MB3 software installed - even with the tray application closed - it takes over some of Windows' audio mixing.
Most people probably don't have a setup like mine, but I have many audio devices in my system - real and virtual - and I use AudioSwitch to change between them.
Well with the MB3 software installed, it would transfer the current volume level over to whatever Windows' default device was. So I could no longer keep one device at 50% and another at 100% - whatever the current level was, would be applied to the new device when I switched it.
And it seemed to interfere with dynamic switching with non-exclusive audio outputs.
So for example, instead of being able to change audio device during YouTube playback in Firefox, it would freeze the video and I would have to refresh the page for it to play again.
Now neither of those things are going to be a problem for most people who use a single audio device, but it's something to be aware of.
I can see that it might be an issue if you normally swap between speakers and headphones, and those are separate audio devices on your system.
In that setup you might have the speakers at 100% (external volume control) while the headphones might only be at something like 20%.
When connecting your headphones to the system and having the device switch over, MB3 might keep the volume at 100% instead of staying at 20%.
So MB3 might be a decent option if you're using the on-board audio codec, or if you want to use SBX surround and don't mind using the "listen to this device" option to forward that audio to another device.
But I wouldn't recommend it if you plan on using something other than the on-board audio as your output device, unless you want the effects.
I still don't know what the situation is with ALchemy and MB3, since I already have ALchemy working with my Sound Blaster Z.
If MB3 enables you to use ALchemy, and it works with all audio devices in your system, it's probably still the best way to restore DirectSound3D and EAX effects without buying a Creative sound card.
If you play a lot of older games, it may be worth the price for this alone. There are other options for restoring DirectSound3D and EAX support, but people seem to report a lot of issues with everything that's not ALchemy.
It will only work for virtual surround with a supported on-board audio codec. (ALC892 in my case)
With any other output device - even my Sound Blaster Z - it only acts as a stereo device.
So you can use all of the processing effects: the equalizer, crystalizer, smart volume etc. but enabling "surround" with anything other than the Realtek codec is just a stereo enhancement, not a downmix from 5.1/7.1 for true positional audio.
With the Realtek drivers installed, it's possible to use the "Stereo Mix" recording device and Windows' "Listen to this Device" option to forward the downmixed audio to another sound device such as an S/PDIF or HDMI output.
I only tested to see if this worked - and it did - I did not test the quality or latency of doing this.
In addition, with the MB3 software installed - even with the tray application closed - it takes over some of Windows' audio mixing.
Most people probably don't have a setup like mine, but I have many audio devices in my system - real and virtual - and I use AudioSwitch to change between them.
Well with the MB3 software installed, it would transfer the current volume level over to whatever Windows' default device was. So I could no longer keep one device at 50% and another at 100% - whatever the current level was, would be applied to the new device when I switched it.
And it seemed to interfere with dynamic switching with non-exclusive audio outputs.
So for example, instead of being able to change audio device during YouTube playback in Firefox, it would freeze the video and I would have to refresh the page for it to play again.
Now neither of those things are going to be a problem for most people who use a single audio device, but it's something to be aware of.
I can see that it might be an issue if you normally swap between speakers and headphones, and those are separate audio devices on your system.
In that setup you might have the speakers at 100% (external volume control) while the headphones might only be at something like 20%.
When connecting your headphones to the system and having the device switch over, MB3 might keep the volume at 100% instead of staying at 20%.
So MB3 might be a decent option if you're using the on-board audio codec, or if you want to use SBX surround and don't mind using the "listen to this device" option to forward that audio to another device.
But I wouldn't recommend it if you plan on using something other than the on-board audio as your output device, unless you want the effects.
I still don't know what the situation is with ALchemy and MB3, since I already have ALchemy working with my Sound Blaster Z.
If MB3 enables you to use ALchemy, and it works with all audio devices in your system, it's probably still the best way to restore DirectSound3D and EAX effects without buying a Creative sound card.
If you play a lot of older games, it may be worth the price for this alone. There are other options for restoring DirectSound3D and EAX support, but people seem to report a lot of issues with everything that's not ALchemy.
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Zarathustra[H]
Extremely [H]
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Hmm.
If I plug in an external DAC, using on board Realtek optical SPDIF, I wonder if this will work...
GotNoRice
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Just curious, why did you order a Titanium HD then? The only real advantage the Titanium HD has over the regular Titanium is it's superior DAC. The regular Titanium can be had much cheaper usually. I ran a regular Titanium for a while, with the digital output looped back into a PCI EMU 0404 I had (a Creative Professional card with no game features but a nice DAC). It worked great, I only eventually got a Titanium HD for the sake of having a one-card solution.
The Titanium has 16MB X-RAM while the Titanium HD has 64MB.
There are also the Titanium Fatal1ty Champion/Professional cards with 64MB, but the only ones I could find for sale were twice what I paid for the Titanium HD.
If it turns out that the CA20K2 does not have hardware EAX support, I will have to try one of them (EMU20K2) and if they don't, then I'll have to get one of the PCI X-Fi cards. (EMU20K1)
The Titanium HD also has THX TruStudio support (said to be the same thing as SBX) while the older cards only offer CMSS.
My understanding is that CMSS-3D is best for games with DirectSound3D support, but THX/SBX are better for downmixing 5.1 audio than CMSS.
I had also heard that support for the Titanium HD in newer operating systems is better than the older cards.
Daroller
Weaksauce
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I never use onboard sound. Ground loop noise is too prevalent with onboard audio, and discrete cards completely resolve that. Yes yes yes, I can do all kinds of stuff to eliminate it or I can just keep using my Xonar DX and Auzen XPlosion.
The audio quality is fine when you don't have that noise.
The audio quality is fine when you don't have that noise.
Tyler-Durden
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I've not used a sound card in many years. I just run a digital line (coax or optical) from the onboard to my amp/receiver. I only do 2.1 with my PC audio, so this solution works well for me.
320 FLAC? What's that?
I assume he means 320k MP3, because the FLAC files in my library range from 126kbps (chiptunes) to over 6000kbps. (FLAC level 8)
Just because I don't think that "high-res" matters for music playback, doesn't mean that I didn't buy some to test it out for myself...
Looking at only CD-quality audio (16/44) there are still FLAC files which are over 1000kbps in my library. (uncompressed would be 1411kbps)
Those are the ones likely to lose the most when compressed to a 160k MP3.
Gmok Bonecrusha
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Criticalhitkoala
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Gmok. I don't care much for virtual surround solutions that aren't paired with a hardware backbone. But I'm sure the software probably works.
I prefer sounds cards because amp and lack of electric interference. Which I can't seem to not get any sort most on board sound while using headsets. I hear crackling all the time with my headphone but perfect without.
I prefer sounds cards because amp and lack of electric interference. Which I can't seem to not get any sort most on board sound while using headsets. I hear crackling all the time with my headphone but perfect without.
Uncompressed 32-bit 96 KHz stereo is about 6000 kbps. What on earth are you encoding in FLAC that compresses to 6000 kbps?
24/192 tracks which actually contain a decent amount of high frequency data, instead of being upsampled.
I'm not suggesting that's reasonable, I was just pointing out that FLAC files can range from about 128k to 6000k or more.
With CD-quality audio (16/44) 1100-1200k is about the highest bitrate that I've seen for a level 8 compressed FLAC file.
With the compression ratio being so low for those tracks, it seems ridiculous to think that you could compress it to a 160k MP3 without any perceivable loss.
As I said before though, I don't think that "high res" audio is worth it at all.
I bought some tracks because I wanted to test this myself.
Lossless encoding vs Lossy? Absolutely worthwhile. Disk space is relatively cheap now, and there can be an audible difference depending on the track, in my testing.
High bit-depth? 16-bit source files are fine 95% of the time. If there's an improvement moving to 24-bit, that's almost certainly a mastering problem.
24-bit output from your player/audio device is important though, if you use digital volume control/DSP. (and internal processing should be even higher bit-depth)
Most DACs can resolve more than 16-bits, and the best DACs can resolve around 21-bits, so you are not taking full advantage of your hardware with a 16-bit output.
High sample rate music files? Doesn't matter at all. If there's an audible difference between "high-res" and 44.1kHz it is either a mastering problem, or what you're hearing is distortion introduced by the presence of high frequency signals that your gear wasn't designed to handle.
Humans can only hear 20-20kHz, and most adults are far lower than that. My hearing extended up to 18kHz or so when it was last tested, and that was higher than most.
High-res can matter when recording/mastering content. It doesn't matter for playback.
Fancy high-end DACs? Shouldn't matter. Only buy a better DAC/sound card if you have audible problems - and typically the only audible problem these days is a hiss coming from your speakers/headphones when connected.
Most of the time, the noise floor of your amplifier is going to be higher than the DAC, so it's actually the amp at fault instead of the DAC anyway. (disconnect the source and see if you still get a hiss from your speakers/headphones)
If you have grounding problems (humming/buzzing) then you can use audio transformers to isolate it.
Switching to a toslink (optical) DAC is the best way to guarantee that the device is completely isolated though, since there is no longer an electrical connection between the PC and DAC/Amp at all.
But you shouldn't have to spend crazy amounts of money for that.
I recommend sound cards for their audio processing capabilities more than anything else.
I did not find it to be as effective as SBX Surround, and it has the added downside of Razer software being installed on your PC.
It is probably better than no virtual surround though.
If you're using on-board audio, I would recommend Creative's X-Fi MB3 software, though Razer Surround may be the better option if you're using other audio devices.
Gmok Bonecrusha
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I looked at this twice. I have NO idea what that shit means.
dark_reign
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Yup. It's works pretty good except for the rear channel effects. The sound is less pronounced and narrow. The free version doesn't have the stereo enhancement option which to me makes it sound better with movies/TV shows with 5.1 audio but not so much with games.
I agree with another poster about SBX surround. It's the best virtual surround sound I've heard for games and does well on movies and TV shows with 5.1 audio. I'd go for the sound card option via the Sound Blaster Z or Sound Blaster 5.1 Omni. The latter is an external USB sound card and sounds nearly identical to the internal one. I own both. I had to switch over to the USB card due to coil whine from my GTX 970.
It also seems less troublesome. The internal SBZ sometimes would not get recognized on boot.Quoting myself here, but the X-Fi Titanium HD arrived today and I can confirm that it has hardware EAX support - and it appears to be the last card from Creative which does.
I've been doing some testing today, and it seems that the X-Fi Titanium HD (or anything from that generation) is probably the best card to get for anything that has EAX/DirectSound3D support.
However in newer games, it seems that SBX Surround does a better job downmixing a 5.1 signal for headphones.
I thought that the Titanium HD was supposed to have THX TruStudio support, which many people said was the same thing as SBX, but I can't find any options for it. Apparently THX was renamed SBX due to the license expiring, so maybe they removed it from the Titanium HD drivers altogether?
Here's a comparison between on-board audio, hardware EAX, and emulated EAX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM5EqI23Lq0
A few things to note:
I'm not sure why the video seems to be dropping frames. I'm new to recording footage with ShadowPlay and editing video so perhaps one of those is the cause. The game was locked to 60 FPS on my display.
I re-used the same video clip for all audio recordings if you notice any discrepancies.
The audio recordings were done using the optical output to another system. ShadowPlay didn't want to record audio for me.
With on-board audio only offering a 2.0 output, audio does some nasty hard panning left and right, and there's very little sense of distance.
With EAX emulation, most of the effects seem to be very exaggerated and sound wrong.
With hardware EAX, the effects are a lot more subtle, and sound is more natural. It's more like you're in a "space" than in a game.
Of course some of these differences are lost with YouTube's compression, but hopefully it will still be noticeable.
I always have a problem with this when I wake my computer up from sleep. The audio through hdmi doesn't work and then I either have to disable the device and re-enable it or restart the pc to get it working again.
Any way to avoid this?
I just finished reading this thread, completely, and I have to say it is interesting timing. I've been having problems with my computer audio for a while. I have a gigabyte z97-mx gaming 5 board that is supposed to have a decent isolated dac with its own power source.
But I've been experiencing lots of static. I use klipsch pc speakers or headphones plugged in the back. The whole setup is next to a tv and some powered m-audio speakers. I don't know if the powered speakers are interfering with the pc audio or if its something to do with me installing the motherboard improperly.
I finally said screw it and bought a 30 dollar fiio dac and its been pretty decent so far. I went this route because I didn't really feel like opening up the case and installing a new sound card only to have not fixed the problem. Also, its an m-atx board and things are pretty tight in there.
But I've been experiencing lots of static. I use klipsch pc speakers or headphones plugged in the back. The whole setup is next to a tv and some powered m-audio speakers. I don't know if the powered speakers are interfering with the pc audio or if its something to do with me installing the motherboard improperly.
I finally said screw it and bought a 30 dollar fiio dac and its been pretty decent so far. I went this route because I didn't really feel like opening up the case and installing a new sound card only to have not fixed the problem. Also, its an m-atx board and things are pretty tight in there.
edit: I am going to ramble some more. The discussion here on whether or not people can tell the difference is pretty interesting. About 90% of the music i listen to on my pc is done by streaming via youtube, spotify, or songza. I did buy the sennheiser hd 598's that are always on sale at amazon and am pretty happy with them.
I wonder what bit rate music publishers use for videos on youtube...
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That's a common problem. It's a HDCP handshake error and the EDID doesn't pass right. You can try this fix:
http://www.thehtpc.net/htpc-tips-and-tweaks/solving-your-hdmi-handshake-issues-once-and-for-all/
I tried it on my HTPC and it did not work for me. How I get around it on my HTPC is I start playing something with audio and turn the AVR off and on and then sound works again.
If that doesn't work you can buy the Dr. HDMI device:
http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14106
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Tyler-Durden
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Thanks, that looks interesting.
That is what I am thinking of doing. I have powered speakers for my TV, so I am thinking that I can do optical out to my new DAC and then analog out to the powered speakers.
Keep in mind that this will only get you stereo audio unless you are using Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect to compress the audio to a 5.1 stream.
Unless you have a sound card to do this in hardware, this can add quite a bit of latency and CPU overhead.
And of course you still end up with compressed audio compared to uncompressed LPCM via HDMI. (or analog out via a sound card)
... Wait, what? Why would you say that? Are you talking about Dolby Digital Plus or DTS HD exclusively?
Tyler-Durden
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^^ All true. I only run 2.1 audio for my PC, so DDL and DTS:C aren't an issue. If I ran 5.1 or 7.1, I'd definitely use a nice sound card.
S/PDIF only has enough bandwidth for two channels of uncompressed audio.
5.1 has to be compressed to a lossy AC3 (Dolby Digital) or DTS audio stream.
HDMI can do 8 channels of uncompressed audio. (7.1)
porkiescratchings
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you know unless you are bothered about sound quality onboard is usually ok. mind you i despise soundblaster with a passion. I have never trusted them since the daniel k fiasco......
I prefer the ASUS xonar essence STX range
I prefer the ASUS xonar essence STX range