Shame on Ubisoft (Splinter Cell Conviction)

heatlesssun said:
Yes, I'd love for you to be able to leagally enjoy these games. But I honestly have no idea how to make that happen. I just don't.
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Here's a novel idea, have DRM that doesn't require us to be online all the time :p

Frankly, I dont really care what you and Wabe's experiences have been. You have, what, $4000 worth of computer? You live in the US I assume in a major city with good internet with little to no bandwidth limit that you probably pay less for than my 20gb limited internet. Wabe I'm sure is similar, I know he's the sort of gamer who's been happy to dish out for a brand new GTX480, so probably has a very good set up with good reliable internet.

Now that's fine, I'm happy you guys are in such a position. I personally would never dish out that sort of cash for a PC, but if that's how you guys feel, more power to you. But you surely understand you are in the vast minority.

The majority have more mid-ranged PCs with some what questionable internet quality, maybe want to play on laptops. These are the people who will be hurt by this DRM. No one gives two tosses what your experiences with it have been.

I think Ubisoft have had some good franchises which I have supported on the PC previously, but if their aim is DRM like this I'd rather they just get the fuck off PC and stick to their consoles. I'd rather lose 1 publisher on PC than that 1 publisher fuck over half of PC gamers, and I'm sure you can at very least realise that this DOES fuck over a lot of PC gamers. Of course you have the option not to buy the game, an option which many have taken, but the very existance of DRM like this is screwing over PC gamers as a community.
 
I have a good internet connection and could do the online connection to play. However there is no way I'm going to install someone's software on my PC and then log into their servers. Doesn't matter with AC II as I have no desire to buy that game. I would have bought settlers as I have 6 and like it. Lost sale to Ubi and a lost game experience to me. I don't care which came first, Pirates or DRM. I only care about the result. I'm not going to log on for a single player game to begin with. I'm sure as hell not going to pay $60 for the privilage of handing over the keys to my computer to someone else.
 
heatlesssun said:
So you admit that they have great games and franchises. So how would these be replaced then? Another developer is just going to step in and do Prince of Persia or Splinter Cell? And you'd rather give up the great games over the DRM?
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Yes, Yes I would.

That's your choice of course but to me that's letting the politics of an old and never ending issue that we're not going to solve get in the way of enjoying games. It simply hasn't come to this for me, not at this point. And I've been in this from the begining myself, I've never read the novels but I've been around as long as you, I remember the 2600 when it was new and all of the cheap TV consoles lile the Colecovision.
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It really isn't politics. It is letting a company know that it isn't right. Purchasing the goods from a company that has practices that do not suit myself or the goodwill of the consumer, within reason, makes me culpable to the practices and agenda they are supporting. It may sound stupid, it may seem totally asinine to you or others, but I don't shop at wal-mart for that very reason and I go out of my way to purchase goods made locally, then in the state, then nationally.

Ubisoft is the same way. As consumers if we buy their goods we are saying it is ok to go ahead with your plans and vision. You yourself said you don't agree with their choice of DRM but it doesn't affect you so it isn't a big deal. To me and my way of thinking this is 100% hypocritical. It is all fine and good when things are going your way, but what is the next step they plan to take? Whatever DRM they come up it will be broke. That is 100% fact. Where in the sand do you draw the line and say enough is enough. Just deal with the pirates legally and give legitimate buyers an incentive to purchase the game and use the online services you provide while providing DRM that is non-intrusive. This is what Stardock, EA, and Steam have all done.

What is wrong with that concept? Why do we need such invasive DRM? What if their next step is to require you to have a web-cam and microphone which ties your cd-key and game authorization to a visual and voice activated biometric key? Or how about a regional time program that you have to input your daily schedule and what time you plan on playing for the week and your cd-key is only authorized during those times. Seems far-fetched but those will all help keep piracy to a minimum keep zero-day piracy from occurring. So are those plans ok? Will you agree to those DRM schemes?

My question from day 1 of this mess is why can't companies think proactively for the legitimate consumer instead of punishing DRM measures that generally have no affect on pirates or piracy. There are companies that do and have been stated as examples numerous times. Stardock, EA, and Valve have all done noteworthy jobs of combating piracy without implementing draconian DRM measures and have seen financial success as compared to before their removal of the DRM. The only thing I ask is that you look at it removed from your viewpoint. Can they still offer a great game with minimal DRM and still have a successful launch? If not why?

Companies that put their consumers ahead of the bottom line are companies that need to be supported and that is really where I stand. No company is perfect and they are in the business of making money and securing profits for shareholders and I don't fault a company for looking after the bottom line, just not at the expense of what is ethical and more subjective...moral. Ubisoft doesn't fit that mold in my opinion, but I'm just a couple 0's and 1's on the vast internet so I don't expect anyone to listen to me. You and everyone else is free to spend your money where you choose. I've never been against anyone buying the game; I didn't criticize my friends when they bought MW2 for the PC, as they are all grown men and able to make their own decisions on what they want. However, when they found out that the game didn't have dedicated servers, despite the warnings I gave before they purchased, they all quit.

I never should have got involved in this discussion before hand as it serves no purpose other than to argue dead horses and tired points over and over again. The only reason I take some offense and post in the threads is to try and refute the accusations that Wabe seems to throw out which is if you don't buy the game because of the DRM that is just an excuse to pirate it. For me it is more to the fact that I'm concerned about their future practices and how far will they go. So perhaps an ethical stand is where I'm at now.
 
Tudz said:
Here's a novel idea, have DRM that doesn't require us to be online all the time :p

Frankly, I dont really care what you and Wabe's experiences have been. You have, what, $4000 worth of computer? You live in the US I assume in a major city with good internet with little to no bandwidth limit that you probably pay less for than my 20gb limited internet. Wabe I'm sure is similar, I know he's the sort of gamer who's been happy to dish out for a brand new GTX480, so probably has a very good set up with good reliable internet.

Now that's fine, I'm happy you guys are in such a position. I personally would never dish out that sort of cash for a PC, but if that's how you guys feel, more power to you. But you surely understand you are in the vast minority.

The majority have more mid-ranged PCs with some what questionable internet quality, maybe want to play on laptops. These are the people who will be hurt by this DRM. No one gives two tosses what your experiences with it have been.

I think Ubisoft have had some good franchises which I have supported on the PC previously, but if their aim is DRM like this I'd rather they just get the fuck off PC and stick to their consoles. I'd rather lose 1 publisher on PC than that 1 publisher fuck over half of PC gamers, and I'm sure you can at very least realise that this DOES fuck over a lot of PC gamers. Of course you have the option not to buy the game, an option which many have taken, but the very existance of DRM like this is screwing over PC gamers as a community.
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I was referring to something that I could do as an individual. I've sent Ubi a message letting them know that while I understand why they did what they did that I didn't think it this DRM was in their best interest as so many people have started to criticize their games and that it was difficult for me to make the purchases that I did because so many have said that the DRM makes these games unplayable and that I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt more so than most people.

And yes I invest a lot in my rigs and if you don't care about my experiences that's fine. That goes both ways I guess but at least as a paying customer Iwas willing to convey a message.

And while I can understand on some level that you think this DRM is hurting you what I don't understand is how Ubi ceasing PC development would help you. Somebody else can't step in and do another Splinter Cell or Prince of Persia unless Ubi sells the rights. And if this DRM is a bad as you say nothing is stopping someone right now from stepping in. I mean accordingly to you these games have sold very little, right?
 
Climber said:
The only reason I take some offense and post in the threads is to try and refute the accusations that Wabe seems to throw out which is if you don't buy the game because of the DRM that is just an excuse to pirate it. For me it is more to the fact that I'm concerned about their future practices and how far will they go. So perhaps an ethical stand is where I'm at now.
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People keep on putting those words into my mouth: if a person decides not to buy an Ubisoft game because of the DRM, then I don't automatically assume that that person is going to pirate the game.
 
Notice how Heatlesssun posts, and then I post immediately afterwards - planned? Who knows, maybe The Dynamic Duo are really just Ubisoft plants who have come to spread propaganda! Mwhwahahahhahahahahahah!
 
heatlesssun said:
If you do play PC games I stand corrected.
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I wouldn't be posting in here if I didn't.

heatlesssun said:
However not caring about a major developer ceasing PC development, no matter your opinion of their DRM, is a bit shortsighted I think if you care about the platform. That will just lead to fewer choices on the PC.
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That's the great thing about an open marketplace: when one falls, another will invariably rise to take its place. This industry is mostly populated with a limited number of major players, producing games with the biggest budgets and the most impressive marketing campaigns, but what they're producing are predominantly uninnovative DRM-infested sequels (we're on what version of Call of Duty now? Six?), producing little of interesting value. Independent developers have been falling by the wayside in favor of publisher-owned sequel-churning machines. The CEO of Activision specifically admitted to wanting to take all the fun out of game development, turning an exciting profession into glorified data entry and, as a result, producing formulaic, bug-ridden, poor-performing borefests and charging a premium for it.

If you think Ubisoft pulling out of the PC market (with a gaming-capable install base growing like clockwork year by year if the Steam hardware surveys are any indication) would have severe repercussions on PC gaming as a whole, you're unbelievably naive. I haven't bought an Ubisoft game in seven years — am I really suffering?
 
spindoctor said:
Suffering? Maybe not. But you've missed out on lots of games that were great fun to play.
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Too an extent. Most are just glorified rehashes of one another with a twist. Like Phide said Independent developers have made some of the most fun and innovative games the last few years. Playing a new CoD, Rainbow Six, Splinter Cell, Prince of Persia, etc...etc...every year while fun to see stories develop and progress gets a little stale.
 
I said:

heatlesssun said:
However not caring about a major developer ceasing PC development, no matter your opinion of their DRM, is a bit shortsighted I think if you care about the platform. That will just lead to fewer choices on the PC.
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Which in response you said:

phide said:
If you think Ubisoft pulling out of the PC market (with a gaming-capable install base growing like clockwork year by year if the Steam hardware surveys are any indication) would have severe repercussions on PC gaming as a whole, you're unbelievably naive. I haven't bought an Ubisoft game in seven years — am I really suffering?
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Whoa Nellie! You must have me confused with someone else. I never came even remotely close to saying anything like this. But if Ubi were to pull out the PC market that means no more Prince Of Persia or Splinter Cell games which I like and apparently some of the DRM complainers as well. And I'm not the one going around saying how Ubi is screwing PC gaming, wheather they are in or out of the PC market.
 
Climber said:
So perhaps an ethical stand is where I'm at now.
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I can appreciate your stand just as long as you understand these are YOUR ethics. As far as I know Ubi hasn't broken any laws, I'm not a lawyer maybe one of you DRM complainers thinks so or has proof to the contrary. And also as far as I know no animals were killed or toxic mortgages underwritten because of this DRM. Again, maybe someone has proof to the contrary.

So you have a disagreement over a company's DRM policy to which there is FAR from any moral consensus and no laws have been broken to my knowledge. Yeah, its politics. Nothing more, nothing less to most of the rest of the world. I can appreciate your ethics, I just don't see any broad consensus or moral imperative involved. And throw piracy into the mix and yeah, this all becomes a morass. Sorry, just no clear moral issue I see here over this DRM.

And as far as the DRM being draconian. What you call draconian I call a paycheck. I have 3 independent 3G connections, one on my phone, one on my personal Tablet PC and one on my work laptop and a business class cable modem, which is supposed increase reliability not speed and not for games but for my livelihood.

And sure, it doesn't matter to you and that's fine. Your circumstances are yours and mine are mine. It's called life and its why reasonable SHOULD be able to disagree without duels to the death.
 
Well, just got through playing for about an hour. I'm very dissapointed. It doesn't even feel like a Splinter Cell game. What a let down.
 
phide said:
Ah, the old bait-and-switch. As for as trolling techniques go, that method isn't very effective. (It's a little too obvious)

Have fun.
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Go back and find the post where I said Ubi leaving the PC market in your words "would have severe repercussions on PC gaming as a whole".

Find ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE, I'll give you some lattitude, and I'll buy you ANY GAME OF YOUR CHOICE ON STEAM!

Put up or shut up!;)
 
WabeWalker said:
Notice how Heatlesssun posts, and then I post immediately afterwards - planned? Who knows, maybe The Dynamic Duo are really just Ubisoft plants who have come to spread propaganda! Mwhwahahahhahahahahahah!
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I knew it. Now I can justify this tinfoil hat I've been wearing. :rolleyes:


Seriously. Guys. This horse is dead. The glue has been used in some 7 year old's diorama of the desert.

1) Some people will buy the game despite the DRM.
2) Some people will not because the game because of the DRM.
3) People who always pirate games will continue to always pirate games.
4) Everyone likes cheeseburgers.

I fall into category 2. I'm currently enjoying my 60 cheeseburgers instead of AC2 or Conviction or Settlers.
 
So, was this whole fiasco worth stopping AC2 piracy for a month? Because Splinter Cell is 0 day cracked. ROFL @ ubisoft.

I certainly hope nobody opposed to the DRM buys the game and then cracks it. You're just sending them a message that this DRM is ok. They need to lose sales and be bashed across the internet like EA was when it released spore. If you're opposed to this DRM but just can't go without playing splinter cell, I think you know what needs to be done. At worst, Ubisoft's console ports won't be missed on the PC. There are plenty of worthier publishers who could use the increased sales from filling that void.
 
anonmoniker said:
So, was this whole fiasco worth stopping AC2 piracy for a month? Because Splinter Cell is 0 day cracked. ROFL @ ubisoft.

I certainly hope nobody opposed to the DRM buys the game and then cracks it. You're just sending them a message that this DRM is ok. They need to lose sales and be bashed across the internet like EA was when it released spore. If you're opposed to this DRM but just can't go without playing splinter cell, I think you know what needs to be done. At worst, Ubisoft's console ports won't be missed on the PC. There are plenty of worthier publishers who could use the increased sales from filling that void.
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This.
Posted via [H] Mobile Device
 
heatlesssun said:
And while I can understand on some level that you think this DRM is hurting you what I don't understand is how Ubi ceasing PC development would help you. Somebody else can't step in and do another Splinter Cell or Prince of Persia unless Ubi sells the rights. And if this DRM is a bad as you say nothing is stopping someone right now from stepping in. I mean accordingly to you these games have sold very little, right?
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Why exactly would that be a problem, though? I mean, you're saying someone else can't come and do a 3d adventure game that plays exactly like anyone would want Prince of Persia to play? Because they absolutely can. The name means NOTHING as we've seen recently; Command and Conquer 4? Yeah, fans of the series just LOVED the treatment it got.

Whether or not someone can make "Prince of Persia 18: Sand in my undies." isn't the issue. It's whether or not someone can make a 3d adventure game that is as entertaining or more entertaining than Ubisoft could. I see no reason why that can't happen. I had more fun playing Saints Row 2 than I did playing GTA4. I see no reason why I won't be able to have more fun playing the next C&C clone than C&C4, or a Prince of Persia clone more than Prince of Persia.

Thinking you're the only game in town is a great way to go out of business.
 
Spewn said:
Why exactly would that be a problem, though? I mean, you're saying someone else can't come and do a 3d adventure game that plays exactly like anyone would want Prince of Persia to play? Because they absolutely can. The name means NOTHING as we've seen recently; Command and Conquer 4? Yeah, fans of the series just LOVED the treatment it got.

Whether or not someone can make "Prince of Persia 18: Sand in my undies." isn't the issue. It's whether or not someone can make a 3d adventure game that is as entertaining or more entertaining than Ubisoft could. I see no reason why that can't happen. I had more fun playing Saints Row 2 than I did playing GTA4. I see no reason why I won't be able to have more fun playing the next C&C clone than C&C4, or a Prince of Persia clone more than Prince of Persia.

Thinking you're the only game in town is a great way to go out of business.
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Could someone make Prince Of Persia or Splinter Cell clones? Of course. Would we ever see them? Who knows.
 
heatlesssun said:
Could someone make Prince Of Persia or Splinter Cell clones? Of course. Would we ever see them? Who knows.
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The point is Ubisoft owns the name "Prince of Persia", they don't own the people capable of producing a Prince of Persia game. Besides, like I said, having the name doesn't guarantee ANY measure of "goodness" from the game. Far Cry 2 anyone?
 
Yeah I was planning on picking up Darksiders. I buy a lot of games and I support a lot of companies. My rule is if I think I'll like the game I'll buy it. There are actually some positive reviews for Conviction. And of course there are a lot of bad ones. On the forth level now, a nice little game. Maybe a bit easy and it's short of course and expensive but I like it, is that a crime?

But as soon as Darksiders goes on sale on Steam I'll probably pick it up.
 
anonmoniker said:
So, was this whole fiasco worth stopping AC2 piracy for a month? Because Splinter Cell is 0 day cracked. ROFL @ ubisoft.

I certainly hope nobody opposed to the DRM buys the game and then cracks it. You're just sending them a message that this DRM is ok. They need to lose sales and be bashed across the internet like EA was when it released spore. If you're opposed to this DRM but just can't go without playing splinter cell, I think you know what needs to be done. At worst, Ubisoft's console ports won't be missed on the PC. There are plenty of worthier publishers who could use the increased sales from filling that void.
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I would agree if the DRM was ridiculous. But people are making this DRM sound worse then it really is.
 
Disposed said:
How so? This is the worst DRM scheme to date.
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Nope. Starforce still gets that honor. Starforce caused real damage and the company refused to update the DRM to work with any OS beyond XP. Ubi's DRM is annoying thats about it.
 
Game is disappointing. I alert enemies by shooting a light in an empty room with my silenced pistol when the enemies are a good distance away in a hangar, but I can shimmy along a pipe and pop two guys in the head, having one shout as he dies 20 feet from two others, and not alert the others... The mechanics are very clunky, not unlike the predecessors, but it just feels alot worse this time around.
 
Derangel said:
Nope. Starforce still gets that honor. Starforce caused real damage and the company refused to update the DRM to work with any OS beyond XP. Ubi's DRM is annoying thats about it.
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Starfoce was never *intended* to damage anything, though. Ubi's DRM does exactly what it's supposed to do, and what it's supposed to do is worse than any DRM yet.
 
Spewn said:
Starfoce was never *intended* to damage anything, though. Ubi's DRM does exactly what it's supposed to do, and what it's supposed to do is worse than any DRM yet.
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Doesn't matter what Starforce was intended to do, it did what it did. Using intent over results is a bullshit argument. Something that damages computers and prevents games from working on modern operating systems is far worse than something requiring you to be online. Ubi's DRM sucks, but in the grand scheme of things its more annoying than anything else. I'll take annoying over harmful.
 
Just enjoying this game, it's nothing fancy and a little more action oriented than the others but I think it's enjoyable. It's gotten some pretty decent independent reviews on the PC.

Yeah they charged too much for it and the DRM needs to go but gee, I like it.
 
heatlesssun said:
Just enjoying this game, it's nothing fancy and a little more action oriented than the others but I think it's enjoyable. It's gotten some pretty decent independent reviews on the PC.

Yeah they charged too much for it and the DRM needs to go but gee, I like it.
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If I were to judge Conviction based on this thread, then I would have to say that Conviction is an absolutely horrible game that's buggy and runs like crap, and that its maker, Ubisoft, is the most evil company on the face of the planet, and only cares about screwing its own customers.

I'll bet that when I buy Conviction I won't encounter any bugs, that the game will run beautifully, and that I'll love the look of the thing (the screenshots look fantastic).

Whine, whine, whine, whine...
 
phide said:
You do realize that you're whining about whining, right?
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No, I didn't realize that, until you pointed it out. I was protesting the protesters. Ah well, 50% of this forum is just about whining and complaining anyhow.
 
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