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SFF Poll -- SFF Growing or Going Away?

If SFF Getting Bigger, Smaller, or is the Same

  • Total voters
    72
  • Poll closed .
S

Steeeeve

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
2,596
I want to know if the idea of "small form factor" is getting stronger, going away, or staying the same.

I personally think it is getting taken over by laptops. DIY SFF computers haven't really advanced much and DTX didn't go anywhere....yet.

I've been out of the loop for some time though!
 
Definitely growing, especially with the cheap high end parts you can get these days. Core 2 Duo's and cheap and powerful cards available from both NVIDIA (8800GT, 9600GT) and ATI (3850, 3870) will blow away any notebook, you can throw it in a bag and take it with you, use it in your living room, set up an HTPC, etc.

I have been through the desktop phase, the notebook phase and now I've settled on an SFF and don't regret it a bit. Any role an SFF can't fill can be filled by a $400 sub-notebook like an Asus Eee PC. I will probably pick up the new 9" one when it comes out.

I can't see myself ever plopping down $2k on a gaming notebook again like I did in 2005. They are slower out of the gate than any decent desktop/SFF and you're stuck with the config you get for the most part, and modding is out of the question. It's also a shitload of money not many people can justify these days.
 
i think its growing, not only am i looking for a sff for a media rig but pretty much everyone i know is as well
 
It's growing. My company is looking to replace our large power sucking boxes with SFF machines. We're looking at going with mini / nano / pico-ITX systems later this year or early next.
 
id have to say growing as well.ive built several sff systems lately for clients.everything from game rigs to office computers.i personally am back into sff for myself with my microfly build.if ya look at the number of new sff cases that have come out.it becomes obvious that sff is growing,and definetly not the same,or dieing out.
 
Do you think the DIY SFF Market is growing or perhaps just the computer manufacturer area (such as the Dell's)??

I haven't seen many cases come out and DTX is not going anywhere so far. ITX has grown a little but matx is still behind many atx boards just like it was 2 years ago. Shuttle hasn't come out with anything that blows us all away and I see less and less articles on SFFtech.

I dunno :(
 
It's definitely growing. People didn't like caring a 3-1/2 lb Ipod, the same with CRT monitors and now with the advent of multi-burners Id definitely say it's growing. The only thing we like big are TV's, monitors, and cars.
 
I think its growing but its also in a transitional stage at the moment. I dont ever see it as big as the ATX side of things but its definately growing. Just my own opinion. :)
 
Growing, but it seems like there is a stagnation in hardware - motherboards in particular. I've converted our whole office of 19 computers to SG-01's in the last 2 years. I also have been building SFF rigs whenever I can for others. I've never had someone tell me they want a bigger computer.

I agree that laptops are becoming more popular, but I think they are stealing more from desktops than from SFF - but they do have an impact on SFF growth. Short of SLI or enough space for larger RAID 5 arrays there really isn't any advantage to desktop over SFF.

Heck, my server in my sig is in an ATX case with 10 hdd's plus DVD, but is running off a mATX motherboard (GA-G33M-DS2R).

It'd be cool if some manufacturer came out with a SLI board like the old s939 EVGA one a couple of years ago, and if it had decent OC ability.

What I'd also like to see is a 'crossover' type SFF chassis, something like Dell did a while back but as just a case or barebone. Maybe from Shuttle or Asus. Think Commodore 128 - with the advantages (small, slim DVD, integrated keyboard) of laptops without the disadvantages (instead with regular keyboard with keypad, regular video card, 3.5" hdd's, possible mATX format). Keyboard up front, thicker in the back for cooling and hard drives. No trackpad and meant to be used with a mouse. Possible proprietary motherboard mainly because of cooling and fitting the video card. Standard RAM, but maybe in horizontal slots like on laptops or canted at an angle. Slimline DVD bay. Overall a thicker laptop base, with better keyboard, no monitor, external PSU.

Ok, I just drew this up in Autocad:
sffso8.png
 
My last gaming computer was a Shuttle, and I really liked it, but I bought a full sized case for my new rig. I missed being able to get in and muck around easily.

Having said that, I still think it is a growing sector. I design workstations for oil rigs and all of those systems are being switched over to SFF. My office space is starting to use a lot of SFF as well.

As for my old shuttle; it is currently my media PC. I plan on upgrading it soon to another custom SFF. A lot of my friends are planning on building or already have SFF for their media PCs.

So I think SFF is alive and well and growing, but I think its focus has changed. I think full sized cases will always be king for the enthusiast/gaming machine. As we incorporate more computers into our homes and workplaces, I think SFF will be the first choice for everything else.
 
sff is growing without a doubt...hell, I even just switched from atx to matx, simply b/c I can pack all the stuff I need/want in a smaller box. That's cool
 
[LYL]Homer;1032350641 said:
Growing, but it seems like there is a stagnation in hardware - motherboards in particular. I've converted our whole office of 19 computers to SG-01's in the last 2 years. I also have been building SFF rigs whenever I can for others. I've never had someone tell me they want a bigger computer.

I agree that laptops are becoming more popular, but I think they are stealing more from desktops than from SFF - but they do have an impact on SFF growth. Short of SLI or enough space for larger RAID 5 arrays there really isn't any advantage to desktop over SFF.

Heck, my server in my sig is in an ATX case with 10 hdd's plus DVD, but is running off a mATX motherboard (GA-G33M-DS2R).

It'd be cool if some manufacturer came out with a SLI board like the old s939 EVGA one a couple of years ago, and if it had decent OC ability.

What I'd also like to see is a 'crossover' type SFF chassis, something like Dell did a while back but as just a case or barebone. Maybe from Shuttle or Asus. Think Commodore 128 - with the advantages (small, slim DVD, integrated keyboard) of laptops without the disadvantages (instead with regular keyboard with keypad, regular video card, 3.5" hdd's, possible mATX format). Keyboard up front, thicker in the back for cooling and hard drives. No trackpad and meant to be used with a mouse. Possible proprietary motherboard mainly because of cooling and fitting the video card. Standard RAM, but maybe in horizontal slots like on laptops or canted at an angle. Slimline DVD bay. Overall a thicker laptop base, with better keyboard, no monitor, external PSU.

Ok, I just drew this up in Autocad:
sffso8.png
Click to expand...



Here ya go:
http://www.cybernetman.com/Default.cfm?DocID=9000
 
That's close, but fails in not having at least a standard single slot PCIe card ability like a 8800GT, and I think 2 hard drives is doable. If it could fit a 9800GTX that would be even better, but I wouldn't hold my breath on a design like this.
 
I personally feel like it's growing. Powerful, energy friendly hardware coupled with increasing platter density really steals thunder away from the traditional ATX.I personally have a laptop, SFF, and desktop system and each of them has differing roles.

I love using the laptop for my portable needs and web design work that requires me to be on the go. My SFF serves as a FTP server for my work and it will eventually be a game server. It's powerful enough to do video encoding and HTPC functions adeptly too. My main desktop rig is still my speed king for getting things done when I need them now. I love being able to fiddle around in a big roomy case that can handle large graphics cards, tons of HDD's, and watercooling all in one setup.

Each area really has a strength... I personally expect SFF to outlive the traditional ATX desktop.
 
the return of steeeve! I think mATX is growing in popularity. Witness the recent boom of cube style mATX cases. SFF on the other hand seems to be in decline. Shuttle has not had a decent AM2 offering since the SP35P2 and they have pretty much no competition in the shoebox sector. There have been some recent offerings by Sony, Acer, etc in the itx or smaller market which is a good sign that bigger names are looking to do more with tiny chasis designs. I believe we will see a migration towards using more laptop drives (both optical and hard drives) in desktop machines and X2 type cards for gaming rigs rather than two separate cards in crossfire / SLi.
 
I think its growing and grow much more in the next couple of years. With Intel announcing that they will begin making ITX boards on their new chipsets. Their Atom cpus are another new thing that should also expect to expand the market.

Via has its new 64-bit CPU coming and with Nvidia making chipsets it should take off well. Maybe DTX will see the light of day:/ If these things are successful, it can lead to other companies getting involved. And now with some competition in the market, hopefully the prices will come down some.

I think that price is one of the main things that makes SFF so restrictive. The major players have always been small companies so production was low and prices were high. With the bigger companies and mass production, things should become much more affordable.
 
Everyone seems to think it is growing haha. I wonder if I should have kept my SFF Store open ( I guess I still can...although it made me have to pay the IRS a lot this year because I actually made money).

I kinda liked have SFF computers at a low low price. For those that remember my site...did you like the review site of the purchase site better? More so in terms of what is more useful to you.
 
Steeeeve said:
Everyone seems to think it is growing haha. I wonder if I should have kept my SFF Store open ( I guess I still can...although it made me have to pay the IRS a lot this year because I actually made money).

I kinda liked have SFF computers at a low low price. For those that remember my site...did you like the review site of the purchase site better? More so in terms of what is more useful to you.
Click to expand...

Well, the more money you make the more the IRS gets. Thats how it works. They always get their cut. Thats how taxes work in this country which I'm sure you already know that. Anyway, personally for me I used your site more as a info, discussion, and review. But thats just what I got out of it. Do I understand you correctly you dont think the SFF is growing?
 
Yeah, I don't think it is growing and probably shrinking. Businesses don't see a need because a normal sized Dell tower actually saves more desk space than say the SG01. Furthermore, the computers that have the monitor and computer all in one will really take away from any SFF case (although you can claim those kinds of computers are SFF). The enthusiast is also stagnant in my opinion. You are not seeing many new cases come out and the mATX market is probably growing but not really for the SFF crowd but for the budget and HTPC crowd.

Perhaps I am missing something though. Any thoughts?
 
Steeeeve said:
Yeah, I don't think it is growing and probably shrinking. Businesses don't see a need because a normal sized Dell tower actually saves more desk space than say the SG01. Furthermore, the computers that have the monitor and computer all in one will really take away from any SFF case (although you can claim those kinds of computers are SFF). The enthusiast is also stagnant in my opinion. You are not seeing many new cases come out and the mATX market is probably growing but not really for the SFF crowd but for the budget and HTPC crowd.

Perhaps I am missing something though. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I agree that the HTPC is fueling alot of it lately but those people are using SFF cases for some of that. Also more people are building their own and that has them buying more SFF cases other than Shuttle units. The case manufacturers have also needed to make the typical SFF case larger to handle the larger video cards like the GTX and Ultra. They been slow about doing it but some are just starting to do it. mATX mobos that have HDMI like the P5E-VM HDMI, are better OCers than previous models but my time with SFF has been short so maybe its just me seeing the changes? Others here have been into SFF much longer than I.

My reasons for switching to SFF from ATX towers had to do with size. Get them off the floor and on top of my desk where less dust and fur are moving about. Since they started making Intel mATX mobos that overclock nicely in the last year or so it has had prompted me and some others come over to SFF. Hopefully the mobo manufacturers will keep up with this trend.

Like I said in my original post I think we're in a transitional period right now when it comes to SFF. Whichever way its going it'll be interesting to see where it leads to. :)
 
Steeeeve said:
Yeah, I don't think it is growing and probably shrinking. Businesses don't see a need because a normal sized Dell tower actually saves more desk space than say the SG01. Furthermore, the computers that have the monitor and computer all in one will really take away from any SFF case (although you can claim those kinds of computers are SFF). The enthusiast is also stagnant in my opinion. You are not seeing many new cases come out and the mATX market is probably growing but not really for the SFF crowd but for the budget and HTPC crowd.

Perhaps I am missing something though. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
I think your interest has waned so that's probably clouding your perspective somewhat. My interest has too. I've been through socket 462, 754, 939 and now 775 boards and and right now is sort of the "golden age" for this generation of motherboards. It's totally cyclical. For gear, every new type of architecture has forced us to wait 6 months to a year before a truly decent board appears. Each generation, the wait period was somewhat quicker than the one before it and the one before that... Now that these are out and all the crappy boards in between, the market is somewhat saturated and there is not a lot of new development. While this means we don't have any reason to tinker with our case, it means we don't have to waste time fixing things we broke by tinkering with our case! :p For me, I'm stoked. :cool:

The great news is, we have had more feature filled motherboards and case choices than ever before! The quest for me has always been to find that perfect motherboard that can overclock and the case to fit it. In the past, there have always been major issues with the boards that held back the overclock. This is the first generation of boards that has allowed people to overclock their CPUs to the maximum, even going so far as to include just about every feature imaginable on boards like the ASUS P5E-VM HDMI! Never have manufacturers offered a mATX board with a no holds barred BIOS with enough volts to actually kill a chip or memory. The new intel CPUs are going to have lower multis, but for now, there really is no point for any other manufacturer to bother releasing something new.

Cases... when I first started looking for a SFF case, the choice was an ARIA or a Shuttle. That was it. Now there are around a dozen cases with a new clone popping up every couple months! Here is a new one that popped up.

While there are still "new" ones being developed, the basic build has been pretty much ironed out and there is less and less a new case can bring to the table, other than looks. Using the existing dimensions, I think there is still room for improvement, but unfortunately case designers seem to be content with what is safe, rather than trying something new and so we have seen less of that. Once a new concept shows up, the flood of clones will follow. That's all it will take.

Compare the interest on the forums versus just 2 or 3 years ago and you will see a huge difference. XS even had a massive thread tracking all of the developed mATX 775 boards, as they were released. Now Fry's even has a section dedicated to selling Shuttles and MicroATX cases. That's pretty cool.

For the time being, things have slowed, but over the long term the market is still growing. But once you watch it for a few years, you see how agonizingly slow it grows. Just be patient. ;)
 
I still follow it very closely actually and talk with folks about it.

I guess we will see. I think DTX would have really picked up the SFF market.
 
I plug in about once a week myself, but it's not the same as being engaged daily. It seems like there have been less new developments in the forum, but it's just part of the downcycle.

DAAMIT is too preoccupied with trying to survive than pushing another format. Besides DTX has really has been in place for awhile with Shuttle's motherboard format and flexATX - it's just marchitecture for something that practically already exists. People who would buy a DTX board are most likely already the same people who are buying Shuttle systems. That market might be shrinking as Biostar, AOpen, Jetway all dropped out of the race and there have been rumors Shuttle is looking for alternatives.

microATX became the primary SFF standard, because it offers something closer to what users had with ATX, without having to sacrifice much. With 2 slot video cards being common, it's a tougher sell when you risk alienating a larger part of your consumer base for a few centimeters saved by slicing off two more slots. Then look at the trend of microATX cases - they have only gotten larger. From Shuttle to ARIA to Fragbox to X-Qpack to Microfly and beyond. For some people, SFF even means the SG02 or SG03 minitowers.

I have long been in favor of a 3 slot board, because this would accomodate 2 slot video cards and one other peripheral. For gamers, this would give you the flexibility to add a sound card and for an HTPC you would probably have 3 slots of extras you could add. With 3 slots, the front of the case would look square without having to be too tall and it would give you just enough room with existing dimensions to add watercooling without having to make major sacrifices.
 
Looks like they are going another route, where everything is in the monitor: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=abcat0501005&type=category

These types of systems are proprietary like laptops. They are made ffor people that do not upgrade their systems and will most likely not have grraphics upgrade options.


[LYL]Homer;1032350641 said:
Growing, but it seems like there is a stagnation in hardware - motherboards in particular. I've converted our whole office of 19 computers to SG-01's in the last 2 years. I also have been building SFF rigs whenever I can for others. I've never had someone tell me they want a bigger computer.

I agree that laptops are becoming more popular, but I think they are stealing more from desktops than from SFF - but they do have an impact on SFF growth. Short of SLI or enough space for larger RAID 5 arrays there really isn't any advantage to desktop over SFF.

Heck, my server in my sig is in an ATX case with 10 hdd's plus DVD, but is running off a mATX motherboard (GA-G33M-DS2R).

It'd be cool if some manufacturer came out with a SLI board like the old s939 EVGA one a couple of years ago, and if it had decent OC ability.

What I'd also like to see is a 'crossover' type SFF chassis, something like Dell did a while back but as just a case or barebone. Maybe from Shuttle or Asus. Think Commodore 128 - with the advantages (small, slim DVD, integrated keyboard) of laptops without the disadvantages (instead with regular keyboard with keypad, regular video card, 3.5" hdd's, possible mATX format). Keyboard up front, thicker in the back for cooling and hard drives. No trackpad and meant to be used with a mouse. Possible proprietary motherboard mainly because of cooling and fitting the video card. Standard RAM, but maybe in horizontal slots like on laptops or canted at an angle. Slimline DVD bay. Overall a thicker laptop base, with better keyboard, no monitor, external PSU.

...
Click to expand...
 
Those all in one units where its all in the monitor or in the keyboard is for the non gamer types IMO. Someone that just serfs the net or does window suites like word processing, spreadsheets, and etc.,. Nothing wrong with it per se but gamers and enthusiasts wont use them for the most part. Too restrictive in performance and expandability.
 
Plus for those prices, you could just buy a laptop and a widescreen. That would make more sense.
 
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