SFF Build in Need of a Once Over

S

Savior1

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Mar 12, 2006
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Hey guys (and gals)
I'm getting ready to enjoy my Christmas present to myself with a new SFF box, but being as I've never worked with size constraints like this before (I've always done full tower) I was hoping some of you guys with some experience in small size hardware could make sure I wasn't heading the wrong direction.
For $1000 budget, I was looking at a SUGO SG02B, with the DFI LAN Party JR P45 (it does seem to be the popular choice) and crossfire 4870s from HIS or Sapphire with a Q8200 2.33Ghz run by the corsair 750W.
My main concern is the 4870s fitting on the DFI board and into the SUGO SG02B. I read the sticky and I'm lead to believe that, yes, "it will fit" according to the spreadsheet, but I'm a bit shaky, the cards themselves are 12.5" according the the HIS site.
Regardless I'm all a bit on the fluttered side, and I was hoping to count on you guys to make sure I don't blow a grand and regret it.
Pointers? Pro-Tips?
Thanks a lot for anything you can offer!
 
1. Why a quad? You're better off with a fast dual like E8500 or E8600. Those will overclock very well (much better than a quad) and in the large majority of games it's clock speed that matters, and very few of them make use of the 2 extra cores of a quad.

2. I know your budget is quite significant, but a pair of 4850s is a much better value for money proposition. I don't think you will see a significant increase in performance by choosing the 4870s, especially when you consider the difference in price (by the way you're sure it's the cards that are 12.5"? I thought that nVidia's were the biggest at 10.5").

3. I'd say you're better off choosing the 620HX from Corsair. It's got modular cables (a plus in SFF builds) and should handle even a pair of 4870s.
 
Please answer these questions so that we can help you better:

Danny Bui said:
If you're gonna ask us to build/list a PC for you or seek advice about a build, please answer all of the following questions:

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
3) Where do you live?
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. Please be very specific.
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
6) Will you be overclocking?
7) What size monitor do you have or plan to have?
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc.

By answering these questions you help us help you build a PC that's of better quality, better performing, cheaper or all of the above.
Click to expand...
 
all good components listed, NichoTL might be onto a better value choice with 2 4850's. They are much shorter aswell removing the problem with fitting in the case.
I only have a single 4850 and im having no touble running new games at 1600x1200 with high settings.

Coming from bigger cases isnt a problem, its basically the same thing just a little smaller.

enjoy the new build
 
1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
LAN party and general Gaming, and "general" PC use (video encoding, photoshop, outputting to an HD TV, office work, web surfing, network streaming) nothing "system critical" as this is going to be my mod/fun box.
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
$1000, tax and shipping not included
3) Where do you live?
Central California, (coastal if it matters :p)
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. Please be very specific.
Case, RAM, HDD, CPU, MOBO, PSU, GPU(s) I will use an external DVD drive for installing Vista, afterward, I don't anticipate needing one, all my media (games, movies, audio) are all on NAS
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
None, clean slate.
6) Will you be overclocking?
Most likely in a month or so, once I'm confident such a small box can support the temps, in which case I will be swapping out the CPU HSF, and in all likelihood the GPU heat sinks as well (assuming they fit).
7) What size monitor do you have or plan to have?
24" 1920x1200 I currently do not have this monitor, so I can't give you a specific make/model, but it has already been budgeted out apart from the actual rig.
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
Within the week, if not sooner.
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc.
Crossfire and/or SLI. Obviously I was planning on AMD for the cards, but if Nvidia is the new way to fly I'm open to that too. I was under the impression that the 4800 series was where it's at currently. I like firewire (mac user here) but really, gigabit LAN will be my main method of transfer here. eSATA would be a plus for future proofing, but non-essential and definitely not a deal maker or breaker.

Why Quad?
Personal preference really, I do know that higher clock speed takes the cake for speed, but I do like the advantages for having programs running in the background without the performance hit, and at this level of machine, I didn't anticipate the CPU being the bottleneck. Was this foolish on my part? For the price of the Q8200 I could easily swap it out with an E8400 or an E8500 dual core if there is that much of a difference.

Card Length: NichoL, I rechecked and you were absolutely right, I saw 12.5 and assumed inches, being the cocky american bastard that I am, and checking again I see that the dimensions are in cm, and I am in fact a tool. (12.5cm in height x_x) Disregard my concerns for size in that case, as they are just under 10" in length.

Also, I did originally look at the 4850s, as they seem to be the perfect price/performance point, but being as I was feeling generous and in the holiday spirit, I bumped it up for the 4870s, (512MB, not the 1gig they just breached that magical price mark) while still staying under the 1K mark. (OK OK, technically $50 over, but with 80$ in mail in rebates I'm still OK with it :p)

Now, with all that being said, does that help? I'll swap out the PSU from the wish list ATM and I await further instruction :p
 
Is modular *that* big of a deal in an SFF case? The only reason I ask is because the 620HX is actually more money than the 750W Corsair PSU I was already looking at and if it has more power and is cheaper, by the same manufacturer I'm feeling I should roll with the 750W. Thoughts?
 
Modular is a big deal if you care about cable management, interior looks, and for the SG02 with suffocating breathing room - cooling.

There are other PSUs y'know, like Silverstone's own Strider line.
 
About the Q8200. I have a feeling it's gonna be the limiting factor in most games (being that it's only a 7x multiplier and that quads don't overclock that easily). Again I'd say you're better off with a 8500, 8600, or one of the better quads (9400, 9550, 9650) with the money you save by getting the 4850s. If for example you're running a E8500 at FSB1600, that's 3.8GHz max, at this speed you'd have to be running some very heavy-duty apps in the background to notice a degradation in performance IMHO.
Personally I'd get a E7300 (with its 10x multiplier) and try to push the overclock and get the 4850s. With the money saved, you could for example get yourself a high performance SSD. Or change the basic components in 6 months when new (better?) stuff comes along.
 
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 CPU - $184
DFI Lanparty JR P45 T2RS Intel P45 mATX Motherboard - $125
G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ 2 x 2GB DDR2 800 RAM - $40
Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - $75
Silverstone ST75F 750W Modular PSU - $120
2 x Sapphire 100258-1GL Radeon HD 4850 1GB PCI-E Video Card - $340
---
Total: $844 plus tax and shipping. ($957 after CA 8.25% tax if my math is correct)

Use the remaining $156 for the case and/or HSF.

I personally think that the Q6600 is the better choice over the Q8200 since it's significantly easier to OC with than due to the Q6600's 9x multiplier (7x multi for the Q8200). In addition, more and more games are becoming more quad-core aware. Left 4 Dead and Far Cry 2 are some of the more recent examples of this.
 
Now ideally I'd suggest to anyone wanting a quad system is to get a i7-920 cpu but we wont see the mATX mobos to run them until latter half of January when DFI releases theirs (I'll assume for sake of argument it'll be a good mobo and overclocks well). But since the OP is wanting to build now another plan is needed.

NichoTL makes some good points but for a budget quad system Danny is on the right track I believe. Because the OP has 'video encoding and network streaming' listed this just screams for a quad core cpu. These are the areas where quads really shine above dual cores. If it was just gaming and internet surfing then I'd say do like Nicho suggested and get a dual core cpu like the 8400. That Q6600 should be able to hit 3.2GHz easily enough on that DFI mobo and for less than $200. If you want a lot higher quad overclock you would need to to jump up to a 9450 or 9550 as Nicho suggested but it'll cost you much more.
 
When you say SG02B, you mean SG02B-F right? The F revision fits longer graphics cards I think.

Looks similar to the build I will be doing very soon, since my SN25P just died.
 
PSUs, yes, I see there are others than corsair, and I definitely see what you mean about the advantages of modular, and the Silverstone 750 looks just fine from here, so I'll stick with that.
RAM will be 4 gigs of Patriot Viper (with rebate its $22, hard to argue with that :)
NichoL, I wasn't aware of the clock issues with the new series. I was focusing primarily on the 45nm tech vs. 65nm, and was hoping for better temps in an already admittedly warm box. I also saw that they were comparable in performance. Now if the Q6600 really does pull that kind of performance off an overclock whereas the other chip just can't match that, then I think I was duped by the "upgrade now" mentality. A 3.0-3.5Ghz quad core is just what I was expecting from the chip, and if I can rely on the Q6600 to handle this speed for that price, that sounds right good and proper to me.
Admittedly, it's not a hard swap to make, as they are within a few bucks of each other (perhaps I should've realized how similar they are from that obvious point :p ). Of course you just mentioned Left 4 Dead, and I just had one hell of a blast with some friends on that game, so you're preaching to the choir here :)

Msdmoney, yes, I did mean the SG02B-F and it seems to be a good choice.

With regards to the GPUs there is the general consensus that the 4850s are the way to fly. Now the card you linked, for the 1Gig version, in crossfire comes out to $320 after an addition $20 in mail in rebates. For 345 (after 2x $20 mail in rebates and $15 off coupon) there are the 4870s with 512Mb.
So basically, what I see is about 25$ for GDDR5, but with a smaller available memory. I'll be perfectly honest out of a grand, $25 isn't going to do much in the big scheme. At this point, with the majority of the budget in the graphics cards, I'd prefer them to pull the most weight. In this vein of thought, I'm inclined to believe that a $25 bump would provide at least 25$ worth of added benefit. I was under the impression that the added memory speed helped with high resolutions. If I'm wrong, and it really doesn't matter then there's no point in the cost, but I must believe there are advantages.
That having been said:
DFI Board
Patriot 4 gigs
4870 x2
SUGO SG02B-F
Western Digital 640gig
Silverstone 750W
Q6600

It all comes out to $1032 right around budget, as far as I'm concerned. Now, when I look at this, it *seems* A-OK to me, but of course I'd like your input.
Also, I was making rounds at Costco today and snagged a Samsung 2443BWX for $270, so that looks to be my new monitor.

I'm really liking the help guys, keep it up!
 
Re: your memory. You need Windows XP 64-bit or Vista 64-bit to use your entire 4GB. On the 32-bit systems, you may only see 2.5GB (since you're using two 512MB video cards).

Re: your processor. The Q6600 has the headroom to overclock to 3.2-3.6GHz and beyond. The problem is your case. You ideally need a full-size tower heatsink to get those overclocks, which won't fit in an SG02. You can use a low-profile aftermarket heatsink (such as the canonical NT06-E), which will get you to around the 3.0GHz mark. Maybe a bit higher, if you attach a fan to the heatsink and make it spin like a vacuum cleaner. Or you can get that E8400 and be running at 3.0GHz from day one...

I would seriously reconsider your need for a quad-core processor. It sounds great in theory and it's very "feel-good", but in practical terms... well, I bought one, and in the year I've owned it, I have had zero use for the third and fourth cores.
 
This Q6600 is an amazing bang-for-buck quad with its 9x multiplier. The only problem is heat: will a 3.0GHz (or beyond) OC be manageable in a SFF case? I don't have enough experience to be of help here.

As for the gfx cards: I agree that if if the difference between 2x 1GB 4850s and 2x 4870s is only $25 then you should get the 4870s. Now is there a big difference between a 1GB 4850 and a 512MB 4850?
 
Re:Re: Memory: I totally hear you, and will be running Vista Ultimate 64, and I will be adding another 4 gigs as soon as I find decent enough reason for the $40.

Re:Re: Processor: I do see where you're coming from, and it makes a lot of sense. If I roll Q6600, I'll through something aftermarket in there with some Arctic Silver 5 and be at 3.0-3.2(ish) right? of course, for the same expenditure, the E8400 would be at what 3.6-3.8(ish) in terms of over clock. Honestly, at this point I'm weighing performance, future proofing, OCing, heat, and wow it's hard to come to something concrete.
My main concern is the added benefit of the higher clocked dual core over the quad. I really don't care if the quad ends up having utility that I don't use, as they have roughly the same price (E8400 being about twenty bucks cheaper). I mainly care about how much of a difference a 3.6-3.8 Dual core offers over a 3.0Ghz(ish) quad core.

On the note of fans, I anticipate the fans in the machine being replaced with Noctuas within a relatively short time, because yes, vacuums suck.
 
Calroth said:
Re: your memory. You need Windows XP 64-bit or Vista 64-bit to use your entire 4GB. On the 32-bit systems, you may only see 2.5GB (since you're using two 512MB video cards).
Click to expand...

I would have thought than a 32-bit Windows OS sees 3.5GB no matter what. Gfx card memory has nothing to do with system memory. Am I wrong?
 
NichoTL said:
I would have thought than a 32-bit Windows OS sees 3.5GB no matter what. Gfx card memory has nothing to do with system memory. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you're wrong. Explanation:
What's this deal about Windows not being able to see 4GB of RAM?

32-bit versions of Windows (both XP and Vista) can address 4GB MINUS the sum total of all component memory installed in your system (i.e. memory in your video card.) In other words, it has one 32-bit memory map which can address up to 4GB of memory, including component memory. Component memory is addressed first because the system has to assume that a component must have access to all of its memory to function correctly. As this is not a requirement for system RAM, it is addressed after component memory. For example, with a Radeon HD3870X2 card, you will lose at least an entire gigabyte (GB) of usable RAM if you chose 32-bit XP.

32-bit versions of Windows have a physical address extension (PAE) switch that enables Windows to utilize 4GB or more RAM. The server versions of Windows have the PAE switch activated by default, possibly due to the limited hardware and software environment the servers have to contend with. There was an ugly hack to activate the PAE switch on pre-SP2 versions of Windows XP, but it introduced significant driver and application stability issues. This very switch was removed from XP SP2 and Vista as it was incompatible with many third party drivers and was known to trash stability.
Click to expand...
 
q6600 - 65nm
e8400 - 45nm
done. e8400 ftw hands down

with extra 500mhz-1ghz, even running 10x background programs is fine
since the cpu processes things faster
i run spore and fallout3 at the same time and no lag
my only problem is i run out of memory even with x64 and 4gb ram.
time 2 upgrade to 8gb. =P

i highly doubt we will see games utilize those 2 extra cores within the lifetime of your system (1-2yrs)
i bought mine a yr ago and had the same dilemma.
went with e6750. no regrets, yet. =)
 
hakkafusion said:
i highly doubt we will see games utilize those 2 extra cores within the lifetime of your system (1-2yrs)
Click to expand...

Left 4 Dead will and does utilizes the extra two cores on quad-core CPU. IIRC, the same CPU updates for L4D was or will be provided to TF2 as well. Far Cry 2, Assassin's Creed, Supreme Commander, Bioshock, and Mass Effect takes advantage of quad-core CPUs as well. So yes there are already games out there that do take advantage of quad-core CPUs, many of them released this year.
 
Can anyone recommend a good HSF for the Lan Party Jr?

I went with the Zalman 8700 and it doesn't fit owing to the other heatsinks around the CPU socket.

Can someone recommend the best cooler that will fit in both SFF and full-size case configurations? Would the Arctic Cooler 7 work in a full-size case?

This board has all I need, the price is right, but I'm unsure whether to house it in an SFF or mid-tower. It may even be both over a period of time, so I'm definitely getting this board rather than a standard ATX one.
 
grandmaster said:
Can anyone recommend a good HSF for the Lan Party Jr?

I went with the Zalman 8700 and it doesn't fit owing to the other heatsinks around the CPU socket.

Can someone recommend the best cooler that will fit in both SFF and full-size case configurations? Would the Arctic Cooler 7 work in a full-size case?

This board has all I need, the price is right, but I'm unsure whether to house it in an SFF or mid-tower. It may even be both over a period of time, so I'm definitely getting this board rather than a standard ATX one.
Click to expand...

I used an Alpha Pre9060 when I briefly had the DFI board it was a snug fit but it worked fine.
 
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