Server Rebuild - few questions...

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jnick

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I'm a college student (now a senior) and being an IT major, I decided to create a server just for the experience and knowledge. It's running off an old Dell Dimension 8200 (P4 2.6, 768mb RD-RAM). I have it loaded with CS:S, Ventrilo, and FTP all running on Server2k3.

Since then (about 2 years ago), we have built a home theater system, and run an HTPC. Currently, we have 1TB of data and we're due for new drives. Instead of scattering the hard drives throughout three desktop machines, I figured now's the perfect time to upgrade the server and actually make use of it. I already have the CPU and the Case. The specs are below:

Lian-Li PC-65 (can fit 9HDD :D)
Pentium Dual Core 1.6Ghz (Allendale I think)
2GB DDR2 800
XCILO 500W PSU
ASUS P5Q SE
Sapphire HD3450

Here are my goals:

1. Continue to run CS:S Server, Ventrilo and FTP. All of which are private and are only hitting a max of 5 people. FTP is RARELY used.

2. Store all my media files on here and stream over the network to the HTPC. I do not care about RAID

3. Want to setup automatic backups of our main desktop PCs on the network. This would include the HTPC OS drive, and two data drives on the gaming machines. I figured I'd use Acronis for this?

Now that brings me to my main question...what OS should I use? I have a legit copy of Server2k3, which is what I'm using now. However, I think it may be overboard for my needs, especially since products such as AVG will not work on it, do to it's server platform. This leaves me at a loss for things like anti-virus software.

I can either use Server2k3, XP Pro 32bit (both of which I have) or purchase WHS. What do you see as the best option? If it's WHS...whats better to backup the NETWORKED PCs? ACronis? Or WHS backup?

Finally, the specs above should be plenty for what I need, correct? I'm slightly worried that the CPU won't be enough, but once I upgrade my PC, I'll throw the E6600 in the server, if necessary.

Thanks!
 
I'm a little puzzled you put this in the Data Storage forum, while you said you do not care about RAID.

Linux and FreeBSD often have game-servers allowing you to run a server free of charge and - best yet - without Windows.Regarding your hardware, try to avoid power consuming hardware:

Intel E8xxx series dualcore (45nm; the new E8600 only consumes a few watts)
2GB DDR2
motherboard with nVidia GeForce-chipset, with onboard graphics. GF9300 is a very good chipset for example but you can use an older chipset too.
notebook HDD

With such hardware you can buy a really small casing too, and it will run without any noticeable noise.
 
I put it in the Data storage forum because the main use of the server will be backing up the main PCs on the network. I'm not concerned with running a game server either. The only game server I run is CS:S only for my nephew. When he wants to play, I start it up, and we play with a few bots. My big concern is backing up the main PCs, streaming media, and running a ventrilo server (which is cake).

I will look into a new mobo with onboard video though, thanks for the suggestion! The chip I have is 65nm. I don't think it will be THAT big of a difference, in regards to 45nm.

Also, not to be rude, but did you read my whole post? I'm looking to expand on HDDs. I's have 4 hard drives to start, and looking for more in the future. A small enclosure is NOT something that fits my needs!

[Edit] What's better GF9300 based boards or the Intel GMA4500 (more specifically http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131332). The G43 should be fine, no? Hell, it will rarely output video or process video for that matter. I'm just looking for a stable platform with 6 onboard sata ports.
 
E6600 and such draw about 20-26W idle, which is a sure difference with the new E8600 doing only 3-4W. That means it can run without fan when it's not hard at work; so this makes it very easy to build a quiet and power efficient system. AMD also has great 35W dualcores that are very efficient when idling.

I did read your post, but i'm not sure i understand all of it. You stated 3 requirements for your new server, now you say you are not "concerned" with running a game server. What exactly do you want the new NAS (am i right its going to be a NAS?) server to do?

In any case, the hardware should prove enough in terms of performance. As for disks, i suggest buying the WD Green 10EADS 1TB disks, those only consume 2,9W watt and are ideal to use for mass-storage, perfect for NAS systems. 1TB is also a nice amount that you can still use in the future.

As for backing up, i don't know Acronis. I do know normal syncronisation software like Rsync which can act as nighly/weekly automatic backup over the network, or Samba to use your NAS as mounted disk under your desktop. If you prefer Windows, WHS is an obvious choice. But if you're considering FreeNAS and want something a little more advanced, checkout the journaling options for extra reliability. FreeNAS can't run other software, like a game server. But from your last post i got the impression you use a different system for that.
 
Intel chipsets are known to be power mongers, generating excessive heat while doing absolutely nothing. nVidia's integrated chipsets are much much better, unlike their SLI chips which are also power mongers. Chipset power consumption in schema:

Intel -> Worst
nVidia
VIA
AMD
SiS -> Best

But there are exceptions, such as Intel G43/45 you mentioned. That chipset should be one of the first low-power chipsets, but still more than AMD or nVidia. If you're going to use FreeNAS you should look at compatiblity first. All of these boards, even those under 35 euro, will supply 6 SATA ports, by the chipset. Most are micro-ATX form factor.
 
The E6600 was only going to be used IF the E2140 isn't enough. I'll definitely look into the green disks, thanks!

When I say I'm not concerned with running a game server, I'm referring to the fact that this isn't a server being used by 32 people. It's a private server for my nephew to use with a few family members. The most amount of human players connected at once is 5, we throw in a few bots (7+) and call it a day. Sorry for any confusion on this point.

The server will be Windows based, since I already own two of the three windows based options, so I'm not going to mess with FreeNAS. I'll either run WHS, Server2k3, or XP Pro. I guess whichever suits the situation better.

In regards to the onboard video, the only viable option for a GF9300 solution is the XFX board. Or am I missing something?
 
Alright thanks for the clearification. I think the E2140 should be enough; game servers don't use that much CPU at all if they run dedicated (without graphical interface).

There are alot of IGP (Integrated Graphics Processor) boards for both AMD and Intel. Almost all of them are Micro-ATX, so look at that form factor instead. ECS has some cheap boards:

http://ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/Produc...goryID=1&DetailName=Feature&MenuID=44&LanID=9

This one should be fine for a server, not requiring any special video processing to be done. Some more boards:

http://ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/Produc...goryID=1&DetailName=Feature&MenuID=44&LanID=9
http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=P7NGM-Digital&class=mb
 
@jnick

Ok all that looks great except two things

1)get a different board with an IGP, and lose the VideoCard, waste of money and electricity
2)So you want a good automated backup system. Well Since you have a 2k3 License you could buy Acronis which is awesome software...that what we use at work and it works great.
But with Acronis you would have to buy a license for every computer or buy a business edition which is a couple hundred. So I suggest WHS because the backup features are great and are super easy to setup and even easier to restore a computer.

Have you bought any of the components yet?

This is what I would buy
$63 - AMD Athlon 64 X2 5050e Brisbane 2.6GHz
$65-$15MIR Foxconn A78AX-S
$70-$20MIR PC Power & Cooling Silencer PPCS500 500W ATX12V / EPS12V

So $163 of Low Power reliable, Efficient, yet plenty powerful for your needs.
 
No solid caps on that Foxconn board, plus ATX; does he really need that?
Also the cpu is quite expensive. a 35W dualcore is enough. But i think he wants to use his current Intel CPU instead.

As PSU a more energy efficient choice is Amacrox 400W Fanless Active-PFC - totally silent and high quality power supply. 89% efficient.
 
where are you seeing 35w dual cores? I havent seen any is why I ask

ATX because his case holds an ATX board and has more expansion capabilities.
If you want to save $15 you can get a 4850e AMD 45w DualCore.

I recommend PCP&C because they are efficient and they are the best PSU's IMO
Theses things are beast and use a single 12v Rail which I love because you dont have to worry about whats plugged into what rail and do amp calculations and all that shit.
 
I already have the case and the processor. Everything else is up for grabs. So, unfortunately, I am bound to intel based mobos.
 
AMD Athlon 64 3800+ EE SFF (35W TDP) that's the 35W CPU i meant. I got 5 of them here; they don't need a fan if you have a large heatsink.

This CPU is not new, but has now been re-introduced. I got mine for just 29 euro, which is in the Sempron pricerange. About the PSU; virtually all power supplies are extremely inefficient on low loads. They measure 20% load; but they do not measure 10% or 5% load; at these load levels the PSU starts to get really inefficient, down to 50% while it is an "80-plus certified" power supply. That's why i like to spend a few bucks extra for a highly efficient power supply: Amacrox 400W Fanless. It's not generally available though, but if you can buy for a reasonable price (under 100 euro) then i can highly recommend it. You are right however about the single +12V line; that's much better than multiple lines IMO. But many PSU's just say they got 2 independent 12V-rails while in fact they are soldered together; they just want the ATX v2.3 (or smt) label provided by Intel, that demands seperate power rails. But in reality they are just the same. Oh i love marketing! So shameless...

jnick: i know that, ive given you a few intel mobo's, just see if they suit your needs. I'm more familiar with AMD-based boards though.
 
I cant find those in US, and as I recall they were discontinued because the 45w dual-cores provided almost twice the performance.
 
Can WHS run a CS:S dedicated server and Ventrilo server?
 
nitro: the 3800+ EE SFF is just a 90nm K8 dualcore at 2.0GHz, nothing special. It shouldnt be slower than others 3800+ cpus. It was an OEM-only product, recently AMD has opened orders for non-OEM market, so they should be on sale on the net. Some links:

http://66.102.9.104/translate_c?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=de|en&u=http://www.au-ja.org//review-amdx2-3800-35w-7.phtml&prev=/language_tools&usg=ALkJrhhTvkLx2FTiufh7IE1P2LUnb4sdDw

The product code starts with "ADD", which should mean its the 35W version. :)
 
Holding on to an "Intel" system (though I am not bashing Intel) because you already have an Intel processor is "wrong thinking". You are building pretty much a new system to do something specific. To save an old processor and use that as the core of a new system just flies against the grain. It would be different if the processor was going to add 40% to the cost of the new system but it isn't.

I am not saying dump the processor either, I am saying build a new Intel system, and a new AMD system (on paper). Look at the costs, efficiencies etc of both. It is very likely that you can build a new AMD system and come in at or below the cost of an Intel system even AFTER keeping the processor, and it is very likely that you will have a more modern chipset, more power efficient system etc.

If you eval both and the new Intel (using the old processor) wins, so be it.
 
jcolby said:
Holding on to an "Intel" system (though I am not bashing Intel) because you already have an Intel processor is "wrong thinking". You are building pretty much a new system to do something specific. To save an old processor and use that as the core of a new system just flies against the grain. It would be different if the processor was going to add 40% to the cost of the new system but it isn't.

I am not saying dump the processor either, I am saying build a new Intel system, and a new AMD system (on paper). Look at the costs, efficiencies etc of both. It is very likely that you can build a new AMD system and come in at or below the cost of an Intel system even AFTER keeping the processor, and it is very likely that you will have a more modern chipset, more power efficient system etc.

If you eval both and the new Intel (using the old processor) wins, so be it.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was trying to get across.
 
Blue Fox said:
If you use RDC instead of the WHS console, you can install pretty much anything you want.
Click to expand...

Hmm..what is RDC? I'm new to WHS. It's normally a non-gui console? Is RDC something free? Or will that cost more money? I'm know next to nothing on WHS in all honesty...time to google :D

jcolby said:
Holding on to an "Intel" system (though I am not bashing Intel) because you already have an Intel processor is "wrong thinking". You are building pretty much a new system to do something specific. To save an old processor and use that as the core of a new system just flies against the grain. It would be different if the processor was going to add 40% to the cost of the new system but it isn't.

I am not saying dump the processor either, I am saying build a new Intel system, and a new AMD system (on paper). Look at the costs, efficiencies etc of both. It is very likely that you can build a new AMD system and come in at or below the cost of an Intel system even AFTER keeping the processor, and it is very likely that you will have a more modern chipset, more power efficient system etc.

If you eval both and the new Intel (using the old processor) wins, so be it.
Click to expand...

Worthy advice that I shall give a shot. I'll draw up a wish list on newegg and see what's the better bargain. Seeing as we're talking AMD now, any particular chipsets and processors I should be looking at?

nitrobass24 said:
Exactly what I was trying to get across.
Click to expand...

Sorry! I must have had a blonde moment :p
 
RDC is remote desktop connection.

imho, for game hosting Linux or BSD would be better suited. When I was in college I used to run the campus CS server out of my dorm on an refurbished dell tower running Slackware 9. As a bonus I also used it to back up my personal computer as well as a sandbox for testing my programs. I ran it headless and either used SSH (for console) or VNC for remote desktop. Worked great.
 
Oh ok, RDC makes sense now :D. I will most definitely be using RDC as the server will not have it's own monitor. However, to understand the situation better, why can you only install CS:S or Ventrilo over RDC rather then setting it up on the server while sitting AT the server.

Hmm, granted Linux would be a cheaper solution, however would it be as effective? Again, the main priority of this server is for the data storage and streaming over the network, as well as network based backups. The game server, while important, is rarely used with minimal connections. Therefore, I'm more concerned with tailoring the server OS based on the data storage needs other then the game server needs.

If I go Linux, is Fedora a feasible route? I only ask because that's the Linux OS I used in my college classes, so I'm slightly familiar with it.

[EDIT] jcolby and nitro...you guys were right. The following system comes out to $200 below. The intel system came out to $203, without counting the cost of the processor that I already paid for, not to mention, this processor seems more efficient and powerful at the same time.

$57.00 - AMD 4850e 2.5Ghz
$66.99 - Foxconn A7GM-S
$49.99 - XCLIO GOODPOWER 500W 500W
$26.99 - A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800

How's that look? If you think I could sub something out for a cheaper item, I'm all for it. This is really targeted to be a low budget build, since I do have other bills haha. I guess it looks like I'm going to be selling that E2140!
 
That looks good to me.
As for that intel cpu you could always sell it and get some cash.
 
You can do all kinds of network file transfers with linux. FTP, Samba, etc. Fedora is more of a desktop linux (someone might come along and correct me on that though), however you can use CentOS which is in the same "family" so-to-speak (It's based on RHEL which is a server-side Red Hat product, Red Hat is the company behind Fedora as well). I'm not gonna bullshit you here with FOSS rhetoric, wrestling with linux can be difficult at times (but so can Windows) I find it really rewarding though when I finally get something working just perfect. You can also give linux a whirl and ditch it if it's to problematic for you, it will cost you nothing but time :D
 
jnick,

That looks like a very nice "basic build"! I don't see you getting much cheaper than that and staying quality.
 
Thanks for the confirmation jcolby and nitro!

My next juggle is between OSes. I have legal licenses of Server2k3 and XP Pro that I could use. Or I'm willing to shell out the cash for WHS. I just want to be sure that WHS will allow me to run my ventrilo and CS:S server. Also, will WHS give me any kind of experience in regards to actually setting up and administering a server? As an IT major, this is something I'm also doing just to toy around with and gain experience. Or is WHS to "automated"?
 
jnick said:
Oh ok, RDC makes sense now :D. I will most definitely be using RDC as the server will not have it's own monitor. However, to understand the situation better, why can you only install CS:S or Ventrilo over RDC rather then setting it up on the server while sitting AT the server.
Click to expand...

Running headless (no monitor) you'll have to log in via RDC to do any installs other than WHS add-ins. Or you can hook a monitor up (temporarily, or not) to the WHS box and it'll be just like a normal pc setup. The point is you'll need to be logged in as an administrator to install, RDC allows you to do that.

Oh, and I endorse WHS for your needs here too.
 
WHS is a shell running on Windows 2003. As such it can do anything that Windows 2003 can.
 
jnick said:
Thanks for the confirmation jcolby and nitro!
As an IT major, this is something I'm also doing just to toy around with and gain experience. Or is WHS to "automated"?
Click to expand...

That kind of depends. You'll see lots of Windows in networks that support people doing there jobs, email, network shares, active directory, sharepoint. You'll see Linux a lot as part of business infrastructure, web servers, server farms (for various things), etc. There is a lot of both and its helpful to know both. I am very glad I got an intro to Linux during college as it has been immeasurably handy. I also did some of small business server work when I was a technician which was mostly Windows server products.
 
Thanks for the information everyone!

Devman - I have done basic linux work in college as well. I will agree, that it's definitely been handy as without it I would have never of touched Linux before. However, we only used Fedora, so I'm sure I BARELY scratched the surface.

It looks like I WILL be using Windows Home Server! I will not have over 10 clients on my network. Here's an odd ball question though. I also own a Macbook. Would I be able to backup my macbook through WHS? My initial guess is no, but I figure it wouldn't hurt to ask :p
 
Not using the included software. You can run your choice of Mac backup software and have it store the backups on the server, though.
 
ghostee said:
Not using the included software. You can run your choice of Mac backup software and have it store the backups on the server, though.
Click to expand...

Hmm, that works for me :D. Could I store it on the same HDD WHS will use to backup the Windows based PCs? Or does WHS lock you out of that drive?

Thanks!
 
you can set timemachine to backup to a network share..... there is some hack to enable it...
 
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