I suppose a more succinct question for SaperPL and Zombi would be, which of the tasks above have been completed and which are currently pending?
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SENTRY: Console-sized gaming PC case project
- Thread starter SaperPL
- Start date
I suppose a more succinct question for SaperPL and Zombi would be, which of the tasks above have been completed and which are currently pending?
how about an updated version of the checklist?
*Christmas seems viable this time
OUR NEXT MOVES
1. Final improvements of SENTRY (according to our external reviewers suggestions)
We improved design of stand (new mounting), we changed tolerances in some places, we shortened a main hdd holder and also we decided we will go with screws with more magnetic content (We will use galvanized or blackened screws instead those made with stainless steel).
2. Waiting for our two more external benchmarks, to get better view if we made everything right
We sent both SENTRYs to our external reviewers, and we still didn't get information about the results of benchmarks. We're waiting.
3. Finishing design of rubber-pads serial cutter for SENTRY vertical stand
I've designed a special cutting machine for rubber-pads for the stand, but its efficiency was too low for us. Now we redesigned the main idea of the cutter to make it more effective for serial production. I sent an order for the parts for our new serial-cutter, and i am waiting for the parts. Many of you don't know that, but cutting the rubber straight is a very complex process, and it takes time to design the proper machine for the different shapes and types of rubber-line. In our situation, we have a very flexible rubber, so now we will be testing our new faster cutting process including such operations like pre-cutting or freezing the rubber. If someone will ask, why we are doing such crazy things, then the answer is simple: to keep the final price of sentry at a level we showed before. If there are places where we can make something cheaper, then we are doing it. No-one said it will be simple... right?
4. Signing a contract for a bigger batch with our metal-parts manufacturer
We still didn't get the information about the time which our metal-parts manufacturer will need to make 100,200,500 or 1000 pcs. At this moment we can't estimate how many people will order Sentry, so we have to assume many different scenarios. I'm calling to the factory almost everyday, to get some news, but i still couldn't get the answer which will satisfy me. Maybe this week i will know something more.
5. Getting better prices of SENTRY components from our suppliers
When we made our calculations and we were asking about the prices, almost every from our suppliers gave us +100pcs offers. Now after some conversations, we know, we will have to get the 500-1000+ order to get better prices per pcs, but (as i wrote before in the price calculation) this won't change the Sentry price, because this is the place where we will try to get that 5% personal profit. So from customer's point of view, this only takes some time in the whole process, but nothing more. We will have to talk with some more of our suppliers, but we are doing it simultaneously with other moves, so it isn't slowing us down so much in this point.
6. Preparing a promotional intro-video for indiegogo campaign
Last weekend we've made first initial video-shooting of sentry, but we weren't happy with the result. Now we ordered some additional lamps, stands, video-backgrounds, diffuser, softboxes and other stuff, to make the good-quality promotional video which will satisfy us. Next weekend we will make another video-shooting for the campaign purposes.
7. Preparing an indiegogo campaign
Like you can read in point 6, we are fighting.
8. Start of indiegogo campaign
When we will have our promotional video and we will get the information from our metal-parts manufacturer about estimated time of production of different sizes batches, then we will start our campaign. At this moment we ordered 5 more prototypes of Sentry, to check the repeatability of improvements we've made. It also is a factor which can change the time of start of the indiegogo campaign. Keep fingers crossed
The answers about the progress of other "points" can be given during, or at the end of crowdfunding campaign.
9. Finish of indiegogo campaign
10. Renting facilities and hiring staff for assembling purposes
11. Ordering metal parts and SENTRY components
12. Production/assembling
13. Sending SENTRY to the indiegogo backers
I hope those answers satisfied you (at least for now). We're doing our best so you could get your Sentrys before Xmas.
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While I understand offering two different SKUs with different fastener options is not feasible for efficient production, could a fastener list for the finalised case be made available so we can acquire alternate fasteners? While many cling to mild-steel Phillips head fasteners, I'd prefer to use Torx/hex stainless fasteners when possible.
Seconded, that would be lovely.
The manual that either comes with the case or will be available for download will probably include a fastener list.
In the carton-box we are including only one sheet of paper with a QR-code and a link to the manual. In situation when someone will find a mistake in our instructions, we will be able to change it, so everyone will always have the most current version of it. We think that, if you were able to find and buy a pc-case through the internet, it means you can also download the manual. In that way we are forcing people, to have the always the most current version of our instructions. For example: Two weeks ago we sent SENTRY to one of our external reviewers, and we found out, that he disassembled the vertical toolless stand with the screwdriver to attach it to the case. Firstly we thought, that he didn't read the manual. To be sure, we checked our instruction, and we found that we made one misleading picture where, screws have their heads in the other direction. Now we have to change this picture, and thanks to this reviewer we all will have better manual.
And Yes, in the manual we are providing the list of screws, so everyone can check which lengths will be needed in which operation (we are using only M3 screws, so only length, color, material and type of head can be different. metric-size will be always the same).
The manual will be available for download from the link, which we are providing on SENTRY's website: http://zaber.com.pl/sentry/manual.pdf
Thanks for clarification. I couldn't remember if you two had decided to print manuals or provide it on your website. Download makes sense. Always up to date. Can't wait.
dondan
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You know that it isn't allowed to not include a manual. You have to remove your CE label if you don't include it.
The User Manual As Part of CE Marking
The User Manual As Part of CE Marking
hmmm, i will think about it. In most of our products we provide user manual with it, but in this situation our manual is changing so often, that we wanted to make it more up-to-date for everyone. What is more, we are not providing a whole device but only a part of some bigger thing, so we should provide the most important information with it, like "do not eat" in case we would sell something dangerous for children. I have to check how it applies in our case, because with many products we're not getting manual, but only product itself (for example, i just bought SIEMENS S7-1200 PLC driver, with CE mark of course, and the only thing i received is a carton box with PLC driver and a sticker with barcode, serial number and address to siemens website).
I will check if we really need so big, written instruction with our case. If You are right, then we will add it. Thanks mate for the tip
dondan
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E.g. in Germany if there is no manual included and the user failed in mounting the parts. The user has the right to send your product back to you.
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D
Deleted member 222586
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I'm pretty sure that nation-wide laws only apply to goods bought under said country. So.. the German law you comment probably has no bearing for them since they are polish.
From our point of view, we (Poland, Germany...) are in the same country called European Union, and such laws like rules saying when You can give Your product a CE mark, are unfied. Some countries have more strict laws than those in EU, but with CE mark, there is a set of rules which is the same for everybody. It means, in that matter dondan can be right. We just have to check what we really can do and what we have to do, and just do it.
If improvements are still being made, an extra 2 or so rows of holes would make a HUGE difference to thermals imo...
If not, can you take a prototype, punch some extra holes in it, and disprove this?
It seems odd that a case that has so many questions thermally, wouldnt have complete openings for the intake fans. I understand its not a huge difference, but this is the type of case where a small difference has a huge impact.
Something like this may make me wait around for a future version, as opposed to buying one sooner.
Nah
we like CE marks Adding a paper manual (even a 1 page with small images) isn't a problem. We just thought it is waste of paper, money and time. This is a community project, so after 1st day (when people will get their SENTRY's) this manual will be out-of-date, because our backers will be giving us their feedback, saying what to change or improve in it. We will try to choose the best option, so we could use CE mark, and not send unnecessary tons of paper to SENTRY's future users.
Did You see Linus benchmark with 22 core 145W Xeon? While designing SENTRY we didn't think it will be a target for such CPU's, but please see the results of this test. While stress-test in open-air benchmark (without cover), he had 85 deg C on CPU. When he closed the cover, he got 86 deg C in vertical direction and 87 deg C in horizontal direction. So the difference between open and closed cover was in a range of 2 deg C. Adding 2 more rows of venting holes will add some more to the current SENTRY's price (probably not much), and You will get maybe 1 deg C improvement. We made many flow simulations and current number of holes is the most optimal for different locations of CPU socket and for different sizes of coolers.
Nevertheless, maybe on Saturday, if we will have time, we will try to make a test, which You described.
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I wouldn't worry about it. People begging for more holes should stick to their 40 liter cases. The cooler is so close to the vent holes already, it's almost exclusively drawing in cool, exterior air, not it's own warm exhaust like in a larger case. Given that Linus kept a 145W Xeon in the 80C range. My 65W i7 will be chilly. I'm not worried about the design. I'd much rather have the case as is, and maybe worry about a version 2.0 later.
I understand Your point of view, but remember this is a community project. What would be the reason for us to come here and write essays? This is how the progress is made. People are asking if we can do something, and we are trying to do it.
I just made quick load test for my CPU, to check what temperatures You might have. I have 65W i7-6700 Non-K with box-cooler from Intel. For the stress test i used prime95 with "Maximum Heat" option. Looking through the internet, it looks like everything below 85 deg C with this processor is a normal, standard and fine temperature, and people with bigger pc-cases are claiming that 80 deg C is something that they often see during gaming sessions. So i was expecting even higher temperatures with synthetic prime95 benchmark...
After my 20 minutes of full load benchmark, i saw that, for about 95% of time temperatures were about 65-69 deg C, and those last 5% were spikes to 73-75 deg C (conditions: ambient room temperature-21 deg C, cover closed, vertical position on a stand). Idle temperatures are something like 28-31 deg C. I think this is quite good result. We'll check if there will be improvement with this additional row of ventilation holes...
Edit:
Saper's standard benchmarks with some demanding games with very high settings, showed that his average CPU temperature during gaming-load with Cryorig C7 was something like 57-60 deg C. He has 80W Xeon E3-1231v3 which is similar to i7-4770, but with no integrated gpu. Intel claims, that the temperatures for this CPU should be below 72 deg C, and people in forums are getting temps over 80 deg C. It means with this CPU we are also way below the line of maximum allowed temperatures. We will see if those holes will improve something...
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Thermals was never really a concern for me with this case. Even when you two put up that first table of temps I was happy. Linus's build was crazy, absolutely crazy, fun to watch, but still crazy. At this point if the holes make it 1C cooler, and you decide to do it all I ask is do the same for the other side. I like the symmetry. All or nothing with the holes
dondan
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If they skip CE mark, they aren't allowed to sell the case in the EU.
Keep in mind that your product has to comply with the following EU directives:
• 2011/65/EU RoHS
• 2014/35/EU low voltage directive
For computer cases there are two norms to verify that your product comply with the directive:
• EN 60950-1/IEC 60950-1
• EN 50581
The norm EN 60950 is for "Information Technology Equipment - Safety".
You need standardized labor equipment to test your product against this norm.
For the A4-SFX I send my case to an accredited CE-Test-Laboratory so they did the test for me.
The result is a test report.
The next important CE mark is the EN 50581. This is for RoHS. If you can get a RoHS certificate for every part inside your case from the manufacturer you are done.
So if you test your product against EN 60950, EN 50581 you will fulfill both directives (2011/65/EU, 2014/35/EU) and you can create your declaration of conformity. With this document you guarantee that your product complies with the necessary CE directives.
By the way: Check that you register your company and product to your appropriate WEEE authorities. Otherwise you are also not allowed to sell your product.
For myself I can say, finalize the case is only the first step into getting your product on the market. There are many other things you have to think about, like laws, logistic and customs, marketing, account staff . If you have more questions feel free to ask me.
I'm glad to see these results. Given what you see I'd say it's fine the way it is. Try more holes though if you like. At some point though you may as well just make it a metal mesh. Where do you decide to stop? Too many holes could ruin the looks while only providing minimal benefit.
I've actually found with my Silverstone pt13b that closing off all the holes but those directly over the cpu intake on the top/cpu side gets me better Temps because it forces the cpu cooler to only draw in cool air and focus the exhaust out the sides (the narrow sides) so it can't recirculate back to the cpu cooler. Cpu exhaust is forced to flow over all other components pushing any hot air out with it. It's extremely positive pressure and stays cooler and quieter than having all the vents open. People are used to large cases with large volumes of internal air which can operate almost passively. With small cases you need highly directed, focused airflow. Passive doesn't work well in small cases with no case fans. Sometimes to direct airflow you need to cover some vent holes to get air where you want it. We'll see how it goes with Sentry.
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Thank You for Your support mate. We really appreciate it.
Firstly i have to say that we made SENTRY to comply with higher standards than only those which need to be made to give CE mark. We work in heavy industry and we treat all of those currently made pc-cases on the market as a toys. Sentry isn't a toy and everyone who will buy it will notice the difference. For example, show me one pc-case in which manufacturer added another, separate grounding cable to the power cable to improve the safety of their product. If you have fully painted pc-case without additional grounding cable, then with our standard it is a toy for us. There are many other similar examples, but that's not the point right now.
Secondly, we were also designing SENTRY to match high european standards. Not in the other way. If you design something and after making a product you have to send it to someone else to check if it matches those standards, then you are doing it wrong. Our approach gave us a possibility to make something better than other companies do, because we decided we wanted to give user a product made with higher standard than this described in EU directives for home-use. Thanks to that, the only thing we have to check are manuals, which You noticed we probably need also in a printed version (even if it will be out-of-date in a few days after sending our product to the customers). For us this is an archaic rule, but we understand where it came from.
Finally You wrote:
There is no such thing like ACCREDITED CE-test-laboratory !!! If someone used this word, then he probably wanted to fool You to get Your money for giving You a CE mark, or this person simply do not know the history of CE mark and he doesn't know what it is. If You gave Your pc-case to a company who said they are accredited in terms of giving CE, then You got simply fooled. Don't worry. in Polish market we also have many companies who try to make money writing they are "accredited" for CE testing.
To sum up, i have to say we are going to give CE mark for SENTRY, because our product meets many higher standards, than only those included in European directives.
If You find something else, where You think we are making it wrong or we forgot about something, please write, and we will check it.
Once again thank You mate for You help.
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dondan
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Maybe for Poland you are right, but in Germany it is possible to accredit a laboratory for different DIN norms like 60950-1.
If Dr. Zaber has standardized test equipment then you can make the test report by yourself. But only designing a product and think you did everything right without verifying is useless. Because if a control instance will contact you to verify that you fulfill the directive, you need to show them the test report. If you can’t this could be very expansive. So without a test report a CE logo on a product is worthless.
Many companies out of China make it the same way. They print a CE logo on the product to have no problem with the customs of the EU countries, til they will be checked by the government. Same with the cross trash can (WEEE).
At the end it is your decision, I can only warn you, because I don’t want that a great SFF product will not become real because of legal problems.
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I'll explain this point by point:
1. What CE really is:
wikipedia said:
Which means this is a marking that states our product is compliant with safety requirements in the CE and if anything happens to the user we're taking full responsibility if it happened by our product not meeting those requirements to the fullest.
2. Why CE was introduced:
The sole purpose of introducing the CE mark was to enable self-certification over B-mark which required certification at laboratories when the cold war ended and opening markets made it impossible to wait for certification for every product.
3. CE marking requires certification from laboratories for selected types of products that bear greater risks like for example elevators, cranes etc.
wikipedia said:
So essentially there's nothing like accredited CE laboratory, it's rather a state accredited laboratory that specialises in testing particular requirements.
This means for example that you can only certify your product there if your client is a state and your contract states that you need to get tested for CE requirements from a state accredited laboratory for those risks/subjects.
Other than that if you have a product of greater risk it only means that you need to test some of it's safety requirements of CE rules in a laboratory that is accredited by state for testing this particular risk/subject.
4. We (as DR ZĄBER company) know our stuff about safety
While we're a small engineering company, we've designed and built countless industrial machines for public and private clients that required safety marking to be put into exploatation and it was strictly controlled by the clients and/or authorities.
Our portfolio gathered over 20 years of company existence consists of:
- Wind turbines / Farms
- Hydroplants / Dams
- Towers for telecommunication and wind measurements
- Heavy Lathes modernisation to CNC for ironworks/steel mills
- Highly specialised custom tooling
- Cash registers (mechanical/ergonomy side of project)
- Custom production lines for wooden products like lolipop sticks, parquet staves etc
- Pipe bending machines
- Water flow control system for olympic kayaking track in Kraków
- Machines for automated lead and asbestos removal from the walls as well as concrete flooring smoothing
- Air dedusting stations for such machines
And big part of those projects were made for clients in other countries all over Europe.
I myself am not part of the crew responsible for all of this projects, I'm a remote IT guy (admin, help-desk, web developer and tools programmer) for our company and game developer in my main job, however Zombi did work on quite a lot of these and we can always count on help and feedback from the whole engineering team.
5. We're also new to packaging products like this
For small products similar to sentry in size, we've always designed the product itself and/or manufacturing process and the packaging was then implemented by the client (the manufacturer who ordered this manufacturing process or product design from us).
Because of this packaging for sentry is something new for us and thus I have designed the package with two sides being clear for additional information we may be required to add, so depending on how much we will need to add and how will the campaign go, we'll either add printed stickers on those sides, make stamps or update the package printing.
6. Why Germany is fixated all over certification in the EU
So essentially Germany is always lobbying for certification of everything for the EU, because if they design the certification process, then they can easily be the first ones to have it implemented in their own certification laboratories which in the end means they are ahead in this race every time.
This works like this:
- EU proposes to co-fund some type of projects (like for example water heating with energy of the sun on school roofs)
- Germany lobbies for certification requirement
- Projects are timed to close the EU budget for current EU parliament term of office
- Germany has its own certification laboratories ready while all over the EU laboratories are stuck with meeting requirements to be able to certify those new products
- Projects are made with only certified, most likely German products certified quickly by their labs
- Profit? Germany gets it's money back to their economy
So we essentially get that Germans are indoctrinated for certifying everything everywhere
7. We will stick to the legal requirements when shipping final product.
We'll most likely need to some additional signs on the packaging and make the safety instruction on paper. Review units may not represent final packaging in terms of legal requirements
For example we promote carryability, but sentry-based computer will be considerably heavy(there's still a full fledged PC inside), so we'll have to add some stuff about this to the printed safety manual like:
- not edible
- small parts, not for small children
- handle with care, do not drop on your feet
- minimum weight of the person carrying it in a backpack/bag so the children won't be affected (legally speaking)
- put your backpack/bag with sentry on the floor of the vehicle while travelling, because worst you can do is to put it in overhead shelf on the bus or on the trunk cover behind back seats
So we're kinda thinking about how instruct you guys what NOT TO DO with Sentry
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iFreilicht
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Fun fact: The CE logo on chinese products looks slightly different and actually means "Chinese Export".
Yes, it needs to be 60mm wide with 48mm distance between screws. The one in the link will be all right. The length of the cable is also the same 50cm as ours.
Note the fact that the one you're showing has still blue connectors so it won't look different on the front. Are you sure you only want to change the internal look of the cable?
We've talked about this with our supplier, but they said we'd have to order 10 000 pcs to choose a different colour.
MrNateTheGreat
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I like seeing another perspective on the case. I disagree with a few points in the video and agree with ZombiePL and SaperPL when hey talk about concessions being made for the purpose of the case.
Removing screws to get into it and build inside isn't a worry for me. It means it ships as a unit instead of bags of parts. It may or may not be easier to do it that way, but it's not a deal breaker. I disagree that it needs to be "simpler" to disassemble. All of the screws and panels are made for rigidity and need to fit together tightly and precisely to keep everything together properly.
I'm an engineer and the mechanical engineering design of this case is what has kept me excited. I work a month at a time on a merchant ship and want to take my PC with me so I'm eager to sign up for the first one. I'll be putting money down ASAP. This is because the case fits a need and is designed well to fit that niche. So I'd hate to see a sacrifice in rigidity or size for the sake screws.
I'm really really excited about this case. If you even launched a beta version I'll be jumping onboard. Hardware canucks gave an estimate of 6-12 months before shipment. That's a bit longer than initial estimates on the timeline, but I appreciate you wanting to do it right instead of fast. Keep us posted. Thanks
Yeah. It's an extremely minor detail; I just don't like how you can see the blue cable through the perforated panel.
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overall I thought it was a good vid. but yeah I don't think that he understood that this is being built to pretty much industrial spec.
Case feet are 20mm diameter, holes are 8mm diameter and you can fit 30mm diamater feet to the edges of the case bottom (15mm radius from the feet hole center).
The bigger problem is that those 8mm holes are not going to be compatible with M3 screws
Whats your reason for wanting to change feet to those particular ones?
The bigger problem is that those 8mm holes are not going to be compatible with M3 screws
Whats your reason for wanting to change feet to those particular ones?
D
Deleted member 222586
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Now that vessel is gone... any other uploads for Hardwarecanucks's review?
Good point.
Basically he liked the look and feel of it. Didn't like the time to disassemble and using hex screws for the case.
Anyone check YouTube? Strange they would upload it to a platform just days before its demise.
D
Deleted member 222586
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I bet they didn't know about vessel going down.
We're finishing some paper work with taxes and customs and we will be ready. We finished shooting cut-scenes for our promotional video for indiegogo campaign, and on next weekend we are going to prepare this video. There are several things, on which we have no influence, so we have to wait a little bit. We want to start campaign this November, but we will see how fast our public offices will be with their paper work.
Dmitry said 6-12 months, because originally we wanted to start production a year ago, but people wanted to change this, add that, switch this to that, etc.... and we were just doing it. And also many people are still asking to change something, and we are checking it and debating about it, so for someone who is looking from outside, this could be seen as project, which will be finished in a far future. This is how community projects work, so it always can be a chance, that someone will find an obvious mistake in our design, and we will have to postpone the production... again. At this moment, as i said before, this November is our target for the start of the indiegogo campaign. Keep fingers crossed