Senators to Unveil the 'Ex-Patriot Act'

[Mr.Cheap]

Bullshit. If you're getting 4 billion and you renounce your citizenship to keep a paltry 67 million of that, you're simply a dirtbag.

yeah something's not right with the numbers here. going by US standards, he would be paying 2 billion??

given that 4 bill sitting in a bank pay out 120 mil a year (a paltry 10 million per month .. how can a man survive on that), that figure doesn't make sense ..

 

[kac77]

Where are you getting that he isn't/didn't pay his taxes?

I'll say it again for those who chose to not listen - he pays $365+ million in exit taxes based on the value of his stock.

The value of the stock is assessed at the going market rate (mark to market). If he leaves before the value of the stock is worth anything there is a chance he could pay absolutely nothing. The amount owed is assessed the day before expatriation. The value of the stock wasn't determined until today. If he filed for expatriation say a week ago then the value of the stock is $0.

Count your blessings if you've never been apart of a company that promised you stock as a means of compensation.

 

[Retronym]

Why do people cling to this notion on people only being able to keep a portion of their money that enables them to "survive"?

Some people want to prosper, which is more than simply surviving. I want to live in a country that encourages that notion, not condemn it.
I certainly don't want my homeland to jettison that possibility simply because someone else who has no involvement with my personal finances feels differently about my money.

 

[Hamish Campbell]

Democrats in the Federal Government have this idea that what people make belongs to the government first, and they get to keep whatever the government decides to let them hold onto. This is proof of that behavior. The man is breaking no law, but since it might deprive the government of some tax money then he MUST be punished at all costs, including passing new laws. Yet, the overly complicated tax code allows wealthy lawyers (who else can understand it?) and congressmen (often lawyers prior) to avoid paying taxes on a lot of what they make. Talk about a load of hypocrisy.

How about stop spending the people's money before you've even taxed it from them? Before Schumer and his ilk go griping about a single private citizen they could, I don't know, actually pass a budget for the first time in three years and stop spending the country into oblivion. How many trillion in debt is the US up to now anyway?



The sub prime mortgage crisis occurred precisely because the market was NOT free. Fannie and Freddie, which were being managed by Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, bought up troubled assets in bundles from banks that wanted to dump them. Why did they want to dump them? Because of the Community Reinvestment Act, signed by Jimmy Carter in 1977. Banks were forced to make high-risk loans or face the wrath of federal regulators. Sub-prime lending made it possible to make high-risk loans that otherwise would not have been made. Any sane person would not loan large sums of money to people that were not likely to be able to pay it back, but because the Federal Government, and in particular, Democrats decided that banks were being "unfair" to minorities by simply doing what is fiscally responsible, they had no choice. Then when the economy went sour and people started losing jobs and defaulted on their loans once the payments doubled after the full interest rate kicked in after the introductory rate expired (as if nobody could see that coming) the whole house of cards came tumbling down. Yet, that's Capitalism's fault? I thought that when the State made major economic decisions, especially for social reasons, that it was called Socialism.

Free market Capitalism doesn't work because it does not exist. As long as government regulators and bureaucrats keep telling businesses what they have to do and keep meddling in the market there can be no free market. Some regulation is necessary to prevent fraud and abuse, that's only sane, but if you want to blame someone for the sub prime crisis the blame goes to idiot politicians that don't understand squat about how Capitalism is supposed to work. Frank, Dodd, Carter... those are the idiots responsible for this mess. The invisible hand can only work if politicians stop swatting it all the time. Maybe if people would stop brainwashing college kids that Capitalism equates to greediness and evil it would not be used as such a dirty word either.

That you took the time to write this nonsense gives away how blinded by partisanship you are. Blaming Carter for the sub-prime mortgage crisis? Are you crazy?

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Isn't that the point of this? He's isn't going to pay them by skipping out on America? Now that I reread the OP, it's the quote that Steve quoted. What are you confused about?

I'm confused to why you're still incorrect. He will not be paying 2012 income tax because he renounced citizenship in 2011. If he doesn't live here and doesn't hold citizenship, why would he still be paying the same tax as if he lived here?

He still pays $365 million + whatever else for the Facebook IPO.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

The value of the stock is assessed at the going market rate (mark to market). If he leaves before the value of the stock is worth anything there is a chance he could pay absolutely nothing. The amount owed is assessed the day before expatriation. The value of the stock wasn't determined until today. If he filed for expatriation say a week ago then the value of the stock is $0.

Count your blessings if you've never been apart of a company that promised you stock as a means of compensation.

He left last year. I can't honestly believe I have to repeat this. He pays it in exit tax either way.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

He can never naturalize again under current law. The US never took kindly to renunciation of citizenship.

This.

I agree with the sentiment that using the structure providedin America to make ones wealth and then ditching to not have to pay for that structure is shitty, but current law already covers this.

This seems like nothing else than a political attention getter.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

This.

I agree with the sentiment that using the structure providedin America to make ones wealth and then ditching to not have to pay for that structure is shitty, but current law already covers this.

This seems like nothing else than a political attention getter.

If he doesn't want to live here, fine. Maybe he'll have his house raided by corrupt banana republic police forces, like John McAfee...

 

[Aki]

I still think he could have picked a nicer country to go to.

Hint: I'm a Singapore citizen.

 

[Azhar]

I still think he could have picked a nicer country to go to.

Hint: I'm a Singapore citizen.

I've been to Singapore 7 times. I disagree, the country's beautiful. More so than our cities. Singapore isn't called the cleanest country in the world for nothing. I envy the guy for being able to move there.

But it *is* hot though! I don't miss that part, lol.

Perhaps like all countries, there's a ghetto? I stayed at Pasir Ris and frequented Kalang, Orchard Road and the City Hall.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I've been to Singapore 7 times. I disagree, the country's beautiful. More so than our cities. Singapore isn't called the cleanest country in the world for nothing. I envy the guy for being able to move there.

But it *is* hot though! I don't miss that part, lol.

Perhaps like all countries, there's a ghetto? I stayed at Pasir Ris and frequented Kalang, Orchard Road and the City Hall.

The Singaporan legal system leaves something (well, a lot) to be desired.

Their perverse justice system in many cases not being based on the presumption of innocence is an extreme liability, especially since they have VERY harsh punishments.

(Hint, if you don't like someone in Singapore, plant drugs on them and call the cops. They will have to prove they are innocent rather than the prosecution proving they are guity, and if they fail, they face a mandatory death penalty...)

Also, while in Singapore, spit your gum on the sidewalk (intentionally or not) and see what happens if you get caught.

Singapore is a clean - on the surface - hospitable city, but it achieves this through extremely harsh means resulting in strict punishments of many times innocent people.

I wouldn't want to live there...

 

[dr.stevil]

stupid kneeejerk reactions as usual. I wouldn't expect anything less.


Not that what he did was right, but don't these guys have larger issues to deal with? This nation and it's leaders boggles my mind sometimes. It's like it's being run by highschool kids (no offense to the youngsters on here)

 

[Azhar]

The Singaporan legal system leaves something (well, a lot) to be desired.

Their perverse justice system in many cases not being based on the presumption of innocence is an extreme liability, especially since they have VERY harsh punishments.

(Hint, if you don't like someone in Singapore, plant drugs on them and call the cops. They will have to prove they are innocent rather than the prosecution proving they are guity, and if they fail, they face a mandatory death penalty...)

Also, while in Singapore, spit your gum on the sidewalk (intentionally or not) and see what happens if you get caught.

Singapore is a clean - on the surface - hospitable city, but it achieves this through extremely harsh means resulting in strict punishments of many times innocent people.

I wouldn't want to live there...

I know all about that too. There's an ongoing joke in Singapore:

Singapore is a fine city. Urinating in lift, $500 fine. Spitting, $500 fine. Smoking, $500 fine. Wasting water, $500 fine. Feeding birds, $500 fine. Picking flowers, $500 fine. Chewing gum, $500 fine. Not flushing, $500 fine. Dumping trash, $500 fine. A real FINE place!

As for spitting gum, actually if you're caught chewing gum, you'll get fined. Not for spitting it out.

Regardless of all that, it's not that bad of a place to live. It's not China or Myanmar by any stretch of the imagination. The lifestyle there very closely imitate ours in the US.

 

[JoeUser]

stupid kneeejerk reactions as usual. I wouldn't expect anything less.


Not that what he did was right, but don't these guys have larger issues to deal with? This nation and it's leaders boggles my mind sometimes. It's like it's being run by highschool kids (no offense to the youngsters on here)

This is how I feel...I mean, is this really THAT important as to warrant this type of reaction? Not to mention the millions of dollars I'm sure the government has spent already on this "problem".

HEY GOVERNMENT! Could you PLEASE focus on the REAL problems we are facing?!

 

[Tudz]

I know all about that too. There's an ongoing joke in Singapore:

Singapore is a fine city. Urinating in lift, $500 fine. Spitting, $500 fine. Smoking, $500 fine. Wasting water, $500 fine. Feeding birds, $500 fine. Picking flowers, $500 fine. Chewing gum, $500 fine. Not flushing, $500 fine. Dumping trash, $500 fine. A real FINE place!

As for spitting gum, actually if you're caught chewing gum, you'll get fined. Not for spitting it out.

Regardless of all that, it's not that bad of a place to live. It's not China or Myanmar by any stretch of the imagination. The lifestyle there very closely imitate ours in the US.

Sounds fair to me.

Don't urinate, spit, dump trash and smoke in public areas, I'm down with that. Don't deface gardens by picking flowers, don't harm birds by feeding them, again, sounds fair. Chewing gum sounds a bit harsh, but I can see the logic.

Wasting water, that's a fair fine if you live in an area which has water supply problems. After many years of drought in areas of Australia you could be fined for wasting water because the population needed to be careful with water to keep low level dams from getting any lower. You want to fly in the face of the community's needs by wasting water then you can fuck off and pay the fine.

 

[Azhar]

Sounds fair to me.

Don't urinate, spit, dump trash and smoke in public areas, I'm down with that. Don't deface gardens by picking flowers, don't harm birds by feeding them, again, sounds fair. Chewing gum sounds a bit harsh, but I can see the logic.

Wasting water, that's a fair fine if you live in an area which has water supply problems. After many years of drought in areas of Australia you could be fined for wasting water because the population needed to be careful with water to keep low level dams from getting any lower. You want to fly in the face of the community's needs by wasting water then you can fuck off and pay the fine.

Yeah it's fair to me too. I never got the uproar about Michael Faye being caned either. He fucking spray painted cars. He wouldn't get caned if he did that downtown Detroit. He'd get shot! Me? If he spray painted my car, I'll cane him with a baseball bat!

 

[kac77]

He left last year. I can't honestly believe I have to repeat this. He pays it in exit tax either way.

You have to repeat it because the exit tax is assessed at the time of expatriation. It doesn't run to infinity. At some point a person who applies for expatriation is expatriated. If you have an asset that has no value how exactly are you going to pay taxes on it? You can't. It has no value. What you're going to pay taxes on $0 before it equals 4 billion? He's going to pay taxes on stock that has no value? That's basically what you are saying and the legislation passed in 2008 doesn't say anything of the kind.

Since we are talking about stock here, the only exit taxes he would pay is on unrealized gains. Unrealized gains are assessed at the time of sale. He didn't sell the stock when he expatriated it had no value.

Future exit taxes are only assessed on people who make over 120K year and have over 2million dollars of assets (houses, boats, planes, etc). If he made under that and had assets worth under that 2 million mark the 10 year window of future gains would not be applied to him. If he does make more than that, again he would only pay taxes on what he sells before the 10 year window is up. Afterwards he would pay a lower rate associated with captial investments.

 

[TheWeazmeister]

This is how I feel...I mean, is this really THAT important as to warrant this type of reaction? Not to mention the millions of dollars I'm sure the government has spent already on this "problem".

HEY GOVERNMENT! Could you PLEASE focus on the REAL problems we are facing?!

Considering that "tax evasion" of this sort is done by MS, Google, Apple, GE, etc etc etc every day of every year with the "blessings" of Congress I do find this amusing. For all of the red v blue people, are you seriously that deep in the BS that both parties throw out there that you can't see through it? It DOESN'T matter which party you champion or support, they are both in the pockets of their donors.

 

[Phoenix333]

QUIT WITH ALL THE LIBERAL-DEMOCRAT-REPUBLICAN CRAP! (Unless you want me to be "liberal" with the bans)

That you took the time to write this nonsense gives away how blinded by partisanship you are. Blaming Carter for the sub-prime mortgage crisis? Are you crazy?

Steve told us to play nice so I cannot respond beyond saying that I am not partisan - I hate politicians in general, just some more than others - and please don't accuse me next time; ask me what I think. It works better and is more polite.

And yes, I am crazy. What's it to you?

 

[Monkey34]

My 2¢....

If the guy wants to, let him.

I would use every loophole I could, and so would you if you were in any of the situations that allow it - to save every penny we could. If you say otherwise, you're a liar.

If it angers you, get involved and do something to get the tax loopholes closed.


NAH.........just keep stroking the e-peen, and shaking your fist at everyone. That works.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

You have to repeat it because the exit tax is assessed at the time of expatriation. It doesn't run to infinity. At some point a person who applies for expatriation is expatriated. If you have an asset that has no value how exactly are you going to pay taxes on it? You can't. It has no value. What you're going to pay taxes on $0 before it equals 4 billion? He's going to pay taxes on stock that has no value? That's basically what you are saying and the legislation passed in 2008 doesn't say anything of the kind.

Since we are talking about stock here, the only exit taxes he would pay is on unrealized gains. Unrealized gains are assessed at the time of sale. He didn't sell the stock when he expatriated it had no value.

Future exit taxes are only assessed on people who make over 120K year and have over 2million dollars of assets (houses, boats, planes, etc). If he made under that and had assets worth under that 2 million mark the 10 year window of future gains would not be applied to him. If he does make more than that, again he would only pay taxes on what he sells before the 10 year window is up. Afterwards he would pay a lower rate associated with captial investments.

His exit tax is $365 million based on the value of the IPO, which he will pay the US tis year.

 

[obs]

Isn't this what the government defenders always say about the US tax system - "If you don't like it, move"

Sounds like he's taking their advice.

 

[kac77]

His exit tax is $365 million based on the value of the IPO, which he will pay the US tis year.

If it's considered unrealized gains. He has to sell the stock. He is not going to get taxed on income he doesn't have.

If the stock is considered an asset based on the value at IPO, then it's only subject to the exit tax if he makes above the threshold I gave earlier at the time of expatriation.

I'm reading this from the legislation. I'm not making it up in case you were wondering.

 

[Aluisious]

Except no one "gave him" the money, sport.

You seem to have real trouble with the concept of income and taxes.

Yes, someone gave him the god damn money. They're called "investors." Facebook did not find a magical pile of 100 billion dollars under their building.

 

[Aluisious]

The value of the stock is assessed at the going market rate (mark to market). If he leaves before the value of the stock is worth anything there is a chance he could pay absolutely nothing. The amount owed is assessed the day before expatriation. The value of the stock wasn't determined until today. If he filed for expatriation say a week ago then the value of the stock is $0.

Count your blessings if you've never been apart of a company that promised you stock as a means of compensation.

The stock was worth hundreds of millions last year. Just because it's private doesn't make it worthless, that's absurd. VC and other investors were buying private stock for the last couple years, some deals valuing it at 10 billion if I recall. 4% of 10 billion is still 400 million dollars. And what's 15% of that...pretty close to 67 million.

 

[Aluisious]

Why do people cling to this notion on people only being able to keep a portion of their money that enables them to "survive"?

Some people want to prosper, which is more than simply surviving. I want to live in a country that encourages that notion, not condemn it.
I certainly don't want my homeland to jettison that possibility simply because someone else who has no involvement with my personal finances feels differently about my money.

If you think the US condemns billionaires you're a fool.

 

[Retronym]

You seem to have real trouble with the concept of income and taxes.

Yes, someone gave him the god damn money. They're called "investors." Facebook did not find a magical pile of 100 billion dollars under their building.

Was he handed money for walking down the street in a Che Guevara T shirt rocking a slurpee, or did he show up to work at a job 5+ days a week?

 

[Retronym]

If you think the US condemns billionaires you're a fool.

I'm referring to a certain subset of the population. And you certainly could have fooled me.

 

[Aluisious]

I know all about that too. There's an ongoing joke in Singapore:

Singapore is a fine city. Urinating in lift, $500 fine. Spitting, $500 fine. Smoking, $500 fine. Wasting water, $500 fine. Feeding birds, $500 fine. Picking flowers, $500 fine. Chewing gum, $500 fine. Not flushing, $500 fine. Dumping trash, $500 fine. A real FINE place!

As for spitting gum, actually if you're caught chewing gum, you'll get fined. Not for spitting it out.

Regardless of all that, it's not that bad of a place to live. It's not China or Myanmar by any stretch of the imagination. The lifestyle there very closely imitate ours in the US.

Politically and when it comes to the law, Singapore is right along the lines of China. No one hassles you on a day to day business, but you better keep your mouth shut, and don't make powerful enemies or you'll just disappear.

 

[Aluisious]

Was he handed money for walking down the street in a Che Guevara T shirt rocking a slurpee, or did he show up to work at a job 5+ days a week?

You really have no idea what he did, do you?

 

[Aluisious]

I'm referring to a certain subset of the population. And you certainly could have fooled me.

Uh huh. So far it's looking like nuance isn't in your wheelhouse, so I'm not surprised.

 

[XacTactX]

Considering that "tax evasion" of this sort is done by MS, Google, Apple, GE, etc etc etc every day of every year with the "blessings" of Congress I do find this amusing. For all of the red v blue people, are you seriously that deep in the BS that both parties throw out there that you can't see through it? It DOESN'T matter which party you champion or support, they are both in the pockets of their donors.

bump, this is worth repeating. The American tax system loses billion and billions of dollars every year to tax havens like Switzerland and the Cayman Islands.

http://www.tackletaxhavens.com/Cost_of_Tax_Abuse_TJN_Research_23rd_Nov_2011.pdf

This report puts the amount of money lost to tax evasion for the US at $450 B. For the Senate to respond to $67 M (a microscopically small sliver in comparison) shows how little it really cares about ending the real injustices in our tax code.

And like TheWeazmeister said, this isn't just Senate Democrats, this is politicians in general. If their donors pay them, their donors get what they want.

 

[Azhar]

Politically and when it comes to the law, Singapore is right along the lines of China. No one hassles you on a day to day business, but you better keep your mouth shut, and don't make powerful enemies or you'll just disappear.

And you know this, how?

 

[Retronym]

You really have no idea what he did, do you?

You have no idea that my comment was referencing what you said earlier, do you?
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1038740978&postcount=119

Don't hurt yourself.

 

[tubular]

63 million my ass. That would be capital gains taxes which would be $600,000,000 (15%). Then don't forget the state income tax if he doesn't live in one of the couple states that don't have one. That could be up to $400,000,000 more.

Thing is he'll have to pay about that much anyways because of an "exit tax" that already covers things like this. He'll still have to pay that 600 mil on his way out. This is just typical liberal behavior in using class warfare so they can raise taxes and expand government. It never ceases to amaze me how hard liberals will work to get more of other peoples money.

Cool story bro

 

[chockomonkey]

bump, this is worth repeating. The American tax system loses billion and billions of dollars every year to tax havens like Switzerland and the Cayman Islands.

http://www.tackletaxhavens.com/Cost_of_Tax_Abuse_TJN_Research_23rd_Nov_2011.pdf

This report puts the amount of money lost to tax evasion for the US at $450 B. For the Senate to respond to $67 M (a microscopically small sliver in comparison) shows how little it really cares about ending the real injustices in our tax code.

And like TheWeazmeister said, this isn't just Senate Democrats, this is politicians in general. If their donors pay them, their donors get what they want.

Yea. It's really a shame how much the smoke screen works. Wake up people, stop fighting each other--that's what they want you to do. Take the fight to the politicians where it belongs. We all need to band together to pull their dicks out of our asses.

 

[Despotes]

All the churches in the USA don't have to pay taxes but someone who actually WORKED for his money does?

Listen, I am NOT against taxing at all...its just that if you are going to tax ME, the individual, I want MY money to go towards things that I want it to fund.

I'm sick of taxes being STOLEN from me to fund more bombs, missiles, bullets, tanks, jets, soldiers, bank bailouts, corporate bailouts, etc INSTEAD OF USEFUL THINGS like public education, health care, and other things that CONTRIBUTE TO THE GENERAL WELL BEING OF THE HUMAN RACE!

Fuck the government, screw those that support this shit and OPEN YOUR EYES TO WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON!

Education on these matters is your best friend. Stop the whole "people are unpatriotic and hate their country" because all that shows is that those who say these things are the ones who are the actual unpatriotic ones...not people like me who KNOW that this country is corrupt, unfair, and doesn't give a DAMN about their civilian population.

If anyone can show me UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE AND PROOF that our government is perfectly fine and has OUR best interests in heart I'll actually ship you a real, freshly baked cookie (your choice of peanut butter, sugar, or chocolate chip)!

Good job Eduardo Saverin, you are a true patriot and thank you sooo much for not funding this corrupt government. You just did your fellow human race a favor.

You're joking right? "Instead of useful things..."? That's funny.

 

[Serpent]

I'm confused to why you're still incorrect. He will not be paying 2012 income tax because he renounced citizenship in 2011. If he doesn't live here and doesn't hold citizenship, why would he still be paying the same tax as if he lived here?

He still pays $365 million + whatever else for the Facebook IPO.

I know that. What I meant is that he seems to have done that with the pure intention of not having to pay taxes. Not that he should pay taxes now, because he is no longer a citizen.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

I know that. What I meant is that he seems to have done that with the pure intention of not having to pay taxes. Not that he should pay taxes now, because he is no longer a citizen.

That could be, but it seems to have been his plan since 2009 to invest in asian markets directly. It's tough to tell his motives - as his public statement on the issues is rather well thought out.

Either way, it isn't criminal in at all, and the morality of it is subjective.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

You're joking right? "Instead of useful things..."? That's funny.

Nah, he is spot on. Military spending is a huge waste.

We have accomplished nothing really in Iraq or Afghanistan, and it has cost a fortune. In fact - one could argue that no military conflict we have part taken in has been necessary since World War II. People talk about honoring the men and women who serve to protect our freedoms. If you are talking about the revolutionary war, the war of 1812, the civil war, WWII and maybe a handful more during the 19th century I'd agree with you, but the people who are serving now are doing little if anything to protect our freedoms, and them putting their lives on the line is on them, not on the rest of us.

The armed forces today do nothing for me, do not represent me, if anything have done more to soil my name as an American abroad, than anything else and make me less safe by pissing people off to the point where they'd be willing to kill me. I don't feel obliged to honor or respect anyone who has served in the military since the 50s any more than I honor and respect anyone else.

If we had invested that same amount of money at home on things like healthcare and traffic safety we would have saved many more lives, and maybe - just maybe - people in these foreign countries would hate us less...

~3,000 people died in 9/11. We were willing to go to war over this. spending trillions, and resulting in the death of thousands of our soldiers and even more foreign civilians.

Over 40,000 people die in the U.S. each year in traffic accidents. Since 9/11 that's more than 450,000 deaths. Where is our several trillion dollar war for traffic safety?

Every year in the U.S. almost 600,000 people die from heart disease, and ~550,000 people die from cancer. Where are ou several trillion dollar wars on these diseases? In fact, even THE FLU kills over 50,000 people a year. We are talking 6.6 million people for heart disease, 6 million for cancer etc. etc. since 9/11.

As an engineer professionally, when we look at issues we need to solve we use the Pareto principle. In other words, we arrange our problems by size (largest on top, smallest on the bottom) as the truth is you'll do better by solving your biggest problems first.

The 3,000 people that died on 9/11 - although horrific - are a drop in the bucket. It would be so far down the list that it's not even worth spending our time on, let along going to war, getting more people killed and spending trillions of dollars.

People talk about programs that are causing our deficit. If you add up military spending from the regular budget and from emergency and supplemental spending bills to fund our wars, the military is BY FAR the biggest driver of our deficit.

The solution seems simple. Want to get rid of our deficit? Cut the military.

Our real heroes are those who spend their time developing new medicines, new treatments and those who use them to save lives.

IMHO, our military is more of a liability to us than it is an asset.