This. +1
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Schiit Audio
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This. +1
Godmachine
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I think its much easier to hear differences on headphones than speakers honestly because the environment is much easier to control. Speaker environments can cost 10's of thousands to properly isolate and setup. Headphones often only require a quiet environment and some end user tweaking. This is the greatest appeal of headphones but the majority of music out there is mastered for speakers so the actual dimensional quality of music is altered but often higher quality for far less money through a nice pair of cans.
While I agree there are differences between HD800's/Stax's versus HD600's I just don't think the MASSIVE increase in cost justify's the actual quality. HD800's for instance are very flexible but they are also extremely critical. Play 128k MP3's through them and it'll sound like utter trash but play properly mastered SACD (like Pink Floyd's DSOTM) and you'll be rewarded with lush and damn near complete studio quality sound.
I think the best test of a good can is how well it handles non-reference material. If a $1500 pair of HD800's can manage to not only open up a new maximum of sound quality as well as retaining the ability to not over analyze and sonically dismantle lower quality music then its likely worth its much higher premium cost. But this is often not the case. I find people who buy cans like that also buy or hold on to lower end headphones that aren't over analytical for the vast majority of there music collection. So for the small fraction of higher end audio they have , they use a very expensive pair of headphones and for the other 99 percent they use something down to earth in cost. It makes it harder to justify to someone who isn't a "dyed-in-the-wool" audiophile.
The headphone re-cabling market probably bothers me the most. The amount of money some people will spend on cables and then convince themselves of the difference is staggering. Cardas cables for HD800's for instance for 10ft start around $699 ... that's not even a balanced cable just a clear , Cardas cable...
I still find that my HD650's can pretty much handle anything I throw at them and they don't cost a fortune. I've yet to find a headphone that can match the value they've provided. I've had the opportunity to get the HD800's for around $800 but after spending time listening to them I just can't justify the cost difference for a tiny selection of music (compared to my FLAC/MP3 collection) that would actually take advantage of it.
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Godmachine
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Ya well, that's part of the reason I warn people so much about spending a lot on audio stuff. There is tons of bullshit out there. There is nothing at all in any kind of real test to even hint that "better" cable improves sound. None the less there are people who will swear by them and spend tons of money (and you can do way worse than $700, I can find IEC-C13 power cords that cost 10 times that).
There is just so much BS, so much "Oh this is something that is so totally amazing even though you can't measure it and it doesn't show up in blind tests!" crap going around. I love me some good audio and spend more than I should on it, but you need to be careful not to waste your money, particularly when you DON'T have a lot to spend.
timestretch
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I will say that I've seen and felt a $699 cable (custom braided cable for LCD-3), and although I am positive it had no effect on the sound, it was actually really cool-looking and fun to hold in my hands while I wore the headphones. Still, you'd be mad to spend $700 on a cool cable.
Again, "audio jewelry." The problem simply comes from when people believe that audio jewelry has audible functionality, and the sellers market the jewelry dishonestly (or deludedly - -either way: incorrectly) as such.
Again, "audio jewelry." The problem simply comes from when people believe that audio jewelry has audible functionality, and the sellers market the jewelry dishonestly (or deludedly - -either way: incorrectly) as such.
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For sure, cables are by far the biggest rip off, period.
Although, I hear scrap yards love them some 100% non-oxidized copper cables...
One thing I have found with the HD800's is that it's very revealing of your signal chain. Stock it does have a tendency to be slightly over-revealing, but it can be remedied with the anaxilus mod. I've done it on mine and really enjoyed the change. Personally speaking, I don't have any issue with listening to 128k mp3's (at least the equivalent via pandora streaming). The you can hear the compression artifacts but it's not painful. What was your dac/amp combination when you tried the HD800, Godmachine?
As a DIYer, I've recabled headphones on my own but primarily for ergonomics (stock cable too stiff, too heavy, too self-kinking...etc).
As a DIYer, I've recabled headphones on my own but primarily for ergonomics (stock cable too stiff, too heavy, too self-kinking...etc).
I think there are times when reWIRING not recabling, really does make a big difference.
I have had two headphones that were completely rewired in the interior as well as the cable. A pair of AKG 340s from Headphile and a Jena labs Ultrasone 780. Now, I only paid $400-500 for the entire headphone in each case. So no $699 recable bs.
The AKG 340 was astonishingly different from the stock. I had both pairs at the same time. Not close. The Headphile was much more realistic than the stock. Tear inducing midrange. So sweet.
The 780 was like a small, really tight gem. Super deep soundstage but too small for gaming. Awesome for specific music though. On that one, they remove the diode board and straight wire it which really improves the speed and dynamics imo.
For the most part though, recabling is bs unless you actually rewire it all the way to the driver. Even then, don't pay much for it.
I have had two headphones that were completely rewired in the interior as well as the cable. A pair of AKG 340s from Headphile and a Jena labs Ultrasone 780. Now, I only paid $400-500 for the entire headphone in each case. So no $699 recable bs.
The AKG 340 was astonishingly different from the stock. I had both pairs at the same time. Not close. The Headphile was much more realistic than the stock. Tear inducing midrange. So sweet.
The 780 was like a small, really tight gem. Super deep soundstage but too small for gaming. Awesome for specific music though. On that one, they remove the diode board and straight wire it which really improves the speed and dynamics imo.
For the most part though, recabling is bs unless you actually rewire it all the way to the driver. Even then, don't pay much for it.
Rewiring makes sense when you're going to use a quad-wire amplifier. Otherwise it's a waste, because you're just going to convert it down to a 1/4" or 3.5mm connection, which is tri/stereo/mono. Of course, everything above is just IMVHO
Cheers,
Gmok Bonecrusha
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Godmachine
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SPL Phonitor + Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC. SACD material and 192/24 jazz material from HDtracks and a ver large collection of various bit rates of MP3's. So about $3000+ worth of gear with standard HD800 cables. I felt the analytical nature of the HD800's was fantastic for high end music and even sounded pretty great for movies. Thanks to the Phonitor's huge Crossover features I was able to dial it in really nice. If I were to buy the HD800's I wouldn't except anything less than the Phonitor which I know is overkill for a user setup since its designed for studio mastering.
I just don't feel that investing $4500 into equipment for only a "nice" bump in quality was even worth while. The increment nature of the upgrade turned me away from even considering it. Most people don't even come close to spending that kind of money and I felt like I hit a tipping point. I would rather spend $300 or less once in a while for new cans just for fun and perhaps along the way I will find the ones that best fit how I perceive sound. I think the biggest issue with headphones and users in general is that you don't buy headphones because everyone else loves them , you buy them because they sound great to YOU. It doesn't matter if they cost $100 or $4000 but when you start advising people to buy high end gear you have to take into consideration that they might not perceive a real difference and could easily end up with buyers remorse.
I don't think I've hit that "Zenith" yet or even close to hitting it but I also no I won't get there by investing thousands and thousands into equipment to make one high end pair of headphones really shine.
I'm somewhat in-between DIY builds at the moment, so I'm driving my HD800 with a Bottlehead Crack and sourcing it with an AMB Gamma2. I'd say it's quite the frugal HD800 rig and that you definitely don't have to get the HD800 most of the way there.
Personally, I was originally interested in the HD800 based on the technical merits alone, then when I gave it a try I liked the sound signature so I bought it.
That's a very good point. Many times people buy a headphone based on a recommendation and then try to "fix" the sound with additional gear such as amps/sources. People really should try a multitude of headphones (in a good environment...most meets are bad auditioning places due to noise) and choose a headphone that has a sound signature that they like.
Personally, I was originally interested in the HD800 based on the technical merits alone, then when I gave it a try I liked the sound signature so I bought it.
I'm somewhat in-between DIY builds at the moment, so I'm driving my HD800 with a Bottlehead Crack and sourcing it with an AMB Gamma2. I'd say it's quite the frugal HD800 rig and that you definitely don't have to get the HD800 most of the way there.
That's a very good point. Many times people buy a headphone based on a recommendation and then try to "fix" the sound with additional gear such as amps/sources. People really should try a multitude of headphones (in a good environment...most meets are bad auditioning places due to noise) and choose a headphone that has a sound signature that they like.
Personally, I was originally interested in the HD800 based on the technical merits alone, then when I gave it a try I liked the sound signature so I bought it.
I think this is more difficult to do for the average consumer and even audiophile than these posts make it sound (no pun intended). There really aren't many stores that will let you audition the higher end headsets (or sometimes the lower end ones too). I hate to say this, but outside of BBY in my area you're SOL if you want to audition pretty much any headphones.
Thus people are forced to make an upfront payment (5% restocking or whatever) just for the luxury of auditioning a set of cans. Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Godmachine
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Amazon will take back cans without any issue. And they even got my money refunded within 1 business day after receiving my return. They are a great way to try them out.
Oh that's pretty cool. I will make sure to use this "feature" going forward.
Cheers,
Godmachine
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Side note for anyone that cares , Schiit just announced there long overdue Balanced DAC :
http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=11
I just ..Schiit my pants.
http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=11
I just ..Schiit my pants.
Any solid state amp will generally have a very low output impedance, on the order of 1 ohm or less...
thehybridfrog
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I think the second full bells/whistles balanced amp will be hybrid like the Lyr. I'm fine with the Lyr/Bifrost for my 800's though, I haven't really bought into the whole balancing thing.
timestretch
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Yeah, for example the extremely underrated HPA2 amplifier built-in to every Benchmark DAC1: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/discuss/feedback/newsletter/2011/12/2/0-ohm-headphone-amplifier-sonic-advantages-low-impedance-headphone-amp -- output impedance of 0.01 ohms with an absurdly high damping factor. Very clear, and precise sound and drives everything short of an HE-6 or a K1000.
And for the record, haha, I don't work for Benchmark, although I probably ought to, given how much I praise the product on different forums. It's just that it happens to be my favorite piece of gear that I own...
So you just took my statement that any solid state amp will have a very low output impedance, and somehow turned it into a boast about the HPA2 amp? Wow.
Damping factor is a direct function of the output impedance and the load, so almost any solid state amp will have a high damping factor.
Stating that an amp will drive everything short of an HE-6 or a K1000 is nothing but hyperbole and really provides no information other than showing how much you love the HPA2/Benchmark DAC.
I understand you really like the Benchmark DAC, but you should probably tone down the enthusiasm a bit.
timestretch
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You make a good point. I am a bit ridiculous in this aspect.
Sort of ridiculous like the ridiculously low total-harmonic distortion of the benchm-----
Right, right. Nevermind...
I'm only a crusader for it, though, because all of my experience with other amps and DACs continually reaffirms in my mind that the DAC1 really is genuinely the closest thing there is to a single-device headphone holy grail.
But -- I think I'm either at risk of becoming the village idiot over this, or I already am, so I'll just be quiet about this from now on, before I destroy what little credibility I might have on these forums.
Sorry for being so... out of hand.
Sort of ridiculous like the ridiculously low total-harmonic distortion of the benchm-----
Right, right. Nevermind...
I'm only a crusader for it, though, because all of my experience with other amps and DACs continually reaffirms in my mind that the DAC1 really is genuinely the closest thing there is to a single-device headphone holy grail.
But -- I think I'm either at risk of becoming the village idiot over this, or I already am, so I'll just be quiet about this from now on, before I destroy what little credibility I might have on these forums.
Sorry for being so... out of hand.
It is impossible to argue with the fact that lower output impedance is better, I agree 100%. But also, don't let the perfect be the enemy with the good. The lowest impedance earphones I have ever read about were 12 Ohms IIRC (Some custom molded IEMs,I don't remember exactly but it's on Head-Fi). Even with a more "pedestrian" output impedance of 0.6 Ohms, for example on the Objective2, the damping factor is 20. That is plenty, and if you use the O2 with something more mainstream, for example 64 Ohms, the damping factor is over 100 (to be exact, 106.xx).
So my point is that yes, damping factor closer to 0 is always better, but if it's <= 1 then in real life you're golden.
EDIT sorry the last line in this post does not make sense. What I meant to say is, if the output impedance of your headphone output is <= 1, then that is plenty good for 98% of the headphones that are available. IMO that's good enough.
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You aren't being out of hand, some people are just haters. The DAC1 does have a superb headphone output. No it isn't a dedicated headphone amp, but then you don't need to be dedicated to do pretty damn good at headphone output, just a properly designed circuit with a couple opamps and buffers. The small signal stuff is much easier to do well cheaply, particularly because of opamps.
It certainly isn't the best headphone amp possible to build, but it really is up there in terms of quality and probably is as good as makes no difference meaning that you likely wouldn't hear an improvement of a numerically better one as it is already beyond the limits of human perception.
There's not a lot not to like about Benchmark stuff, other than the price. Not saying it isn't justified, just that it is pricey, no question.
+1 epic, this needs to be said more often. Unlike headphones, you can have a "perfect", or transparent DAC/amplifier. Things like the Benchmark DAC1 (and the O2, which sounds identical), are not far away from that. It's great to live in the age of technology!
I wasn't hating on the gear, I agree the DAC1 is a great piece of equipment and the DAC and HP amp are quite good. My issue was with the particular claims used to state that it was good.
Checking around various reviews, it looks like the HPA2 consists of a NE5532 op-amp buffered with a BUF634, possibly being powered at +/- 18V. Looks like a solid design that should be quite versatile, from what I remember matches with my experiences with the DAC1. It's just that at that price I'd much rather build my own DAC and Headphone amp.
Checking around various reviews, it looks like the HPA2 consists of a NE5532 op-amp buffered with a BUF634, possibly being powered at +/- 18V. Looks like a solid design that should be quite versatile, from what I remember matches with my experiences with the DAC1. It's just that at that price I'd much rather build my own DAC and Headphone amp.
I know I'm resurrecting a relatively fresh thread, but I thought I would post my experiences with the Schiit Products I own. This will be a kind of mini-review, open to questions/comments which I will do my best to answer.
Schiit Lyr & Bifrost Mini-Review
1) Packaging
The products came double boxed (together since it was one order), although each had it's own box, with a label stating the product name. The outside of the box had the Schiit logo on it, as well as a series of squares which were filled in with the model (L for lyr, etc) as well as some retailer identifying marks. The packaging was excellent, as the outside box was well packed with air cushions, and the inner boxes had foam inserts and antistatic packaging.
Both the Lyr and the bifrost came with 3-Prong power cords, as well as attachable feet. In addition also came a multipage manual which was full of humor and gave good details on the product. Warranty and other information was laid out in an orderly fashion, but was terse. Exactly what one would want in a manual. The Lyr also came with a third box which was the tubes. These were packed in foam cut outs.
2) Design
The design of the products is sleek. Brushed aluminum. Surprisingly hard to scratch. Nothing more to really say here, it's exactly as advertised.
3) Performance
The Bifrost was a real treat. I enjoyed listening to my lossless collection immensely through this DAC. Really revealed a lot of details my on-board audio simply couldn't. I had the USB add-on and this is what I primarily used. Getting the drivers were kind of a head-ache as you have to use the website listed in the manual to get to the download page, as it isn't readily accessible from the main website. Really I have no complaints about the Bifrost, it works as advertised.
The Lyr on the other hand gave me nothing but problems. I was aware it didn't handle sensitive headphones well, but really, it was ridiculous. My initial pair of tubes were bad (one channel rang, the other didn't. Switched the tubes and the ringing reversed channels). I tried it with my Ultrasone Pros, and it was unlistenable between ringing and hiss. After getting a fresh set of tubes, the ringing actually was WORSE, since it now alternated between channels, and was consistent. The hiss was less persistant. It was so bad that I had no choice but to return the Lyr. The problem was no better on my Denons (obviously since they are even more sensitive). I was really hoping that the warmth added by tubes would be for me. I was so wrong!
4) Support
One word: Excellent. It didn't matter what time of day or night, if you emailed support, you got a response in 6 hours, from one of the founders. They worked above and beyond to try and help me, but in the end there really wasn't much that could be done. 10/10 here.
5) Conclusion
For an introductory DAC, the bifrost is hard to bead. Especially at it's price point. The Lyr, and I really cannot stress this enough, requires two things: Supremely hard to drive, inefficient headphones (I'm talking Sennheiser HD650s or higher in terms of input impedance. This means 300 ohm plus). Support was amazing, and the design great. In the end, the products just weren't for me. For $1k, I'm going to return them both (I love you amazing Amazon return policy) and instead find myself a Violectric V100+USB for a little bit more.
Cheers,
Schiit Lyr & Bifrost Mini-Review
1) Packaging
The products came double boxed (together since it was one order), although each had it's own box, with a label stating the product name. The outside of the box had the Schiit logo on it, as well as a series of squares which were filled in with the model (L for lyr, etc) as well as some retailer identifying marks. The packaging was excellent, as the outside box was well packed with air cushions, and the inner boxes had foam inserts and antistatic packaging.
Both the Lyr and the bifrost came with 3-Prong power cords, as well as attachable feet. In addition also came a multipage manual which was full of humor and gave good details on the product. Warranty and other information was laid out in an orderly fashion, but was terse. Exactly what one would want in a manual. The Lyr also came with a third box which was the tubes. These were packed in foam cut outs.
2) Design
The design of the products is sleek. Brushed aluminum. Surprisingly hard to scratch. Nothing more to really say here, it's exactly as advertised.
3) Performance
The Bifrost was a real treat. I enjoyed listening to my lossless collection immensely through this DAC. Really revealed a lot of details my on-board audio simply couldn't. I had the USB add-on and this is what I primarily used. Getting the drivers were kind of a head-ache as you have to use the website listed in the manual to get to the download page, as it isn't readily accessible from the main website. Really I have no complaints about the Bifrost, it works as advertised.
The Lyr on the other hand gave me nothing but problems. I was aware it didn't handle sensitive headphones well, but really, it was ridiculous. My initial pair of tubes were bad (one channel rang, the other didn't. Switched the tubes and the ringing reversed channels). I tried it with my Ultrasone Pros, and it was unlistenable between ringing and hiss. After getting a fresh set of tubes, the ringing actually was WORSE, since it now alternated between channels, and was consistent. The hiss was less persistant. It was so bad that I had no choice but to return the Lyr. The problem was no better on my Denons (obviously since they are even more sensitive). I was really hoping that the warmth added by tubes would be for me. I was so wrong!
4) Support
One word: Excellent. It didn't matter what time of day or night, if you emailed support, you got a response in 6 hours, from one of the founders. They worked above and beyond to try and help me, but in the end there really wasn't much that could be done. 10/10 here.
5) Conclusion
For an introductory DAC, the bifrost is hard to bead. Especially at it's price point. The Lyr, and I really cannot stress this enough, requires two things: Supremely hard to drive, inefficient headphones (I'm talking Sennheiser HD650s or higher in terms of input impedance. This means 300 ohm plus). Support was amazing, and the design great. In the end, the products just weren't for me. For $1k, I'm going to return them both (I love you amazing Amazon return policy) and instead find myself a Violectric V100+USB for a little bit more.
Cheers,
Godmachine
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Interesting impressions. I've had nothing but glowing things to say about the Valhalla , zero hiss or anything else but dead silence unless there is sound being sent from my DAC. But based on the threads about the Lyr on Head-Fi I'm surprised you ran into so much trouble. Denon's are awfully picky with tube amps so I'm not sure that was even a good match up to consider as they seem to respond to solid state amps with extremely low impedance driving ability (the E7 actually drives the 2000D incredibly well for instance). It sounds like your Lyr was defective as well.
Tube amps in general , even hybrid tube amps just don't like low impedance headphones. I'm sure there are higher end tube amps that can and do a great job with them but not within the price range of the Lyr. However the AKG K701's are well driven according to the Head-Fi forum threads by the Lyr.
I hear nothing but great things about the Bifrost and plan to get one myself at the end of the month. It has everthing I'm pretty much looking for in a DAC right now with an excellent price point.
Tube amps in general , even hybrid tube amps just don't like low impedance headphones. I'm sure there are higher end tube amps that can and do a great job with them but not within the price range of the Lyr. However the AKG K701's are well driven according to the Head-Fi forum threads by the Lyr.
I hear nothing but great things about the Bifrost and plan to get one myself at the end of the month. It has everthing I'm pretty much looking for in a DAC right now with an excellent price point.
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Thanks for the comments.
The Bifrost was a great piece of equipment, especially if you have the need for a discrete DAC. Unfortunately I couldn't justify keeping it if I was sending the Lyr back. It's very possible mine was defective, I just don't know. I didn't mind hiss coming from the Denons, and it's true that they are extremely efficient so I actually expected it. However the Ultrasones aren't as much. Furthermore, when I borrowed a coworkers Beyer Dt770 80Ohm, I still could hear everything.
One thing that Jason (of Schiit) pointed out to me is that there could have been a problem with the wiring of my AC sockets in the room, or that there was wireless interference. However, I have a hard time believing that there isn't any protection for the Lyr from wireless signals. Setting my phone to airplane mode didn't seem to help in that respect either so I feel pretty skeptical.
Yeah, this means I will most likely shy away from tubes for now. My current audio plan is to acquire a Violectric V100+USB for home, and then when the ODA+ODAC combo comes out in a month pick one up for work.
It's very possible my situation was a one off. I don't know. Thank the heavens for Amazons amazing returns policy though!
Cheers,
HammerSandwich
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What other DACs have you tried? If you've compared only to onboard, your conclusion is a bit of a stretch.
I have tried a couple of vintage receivers (mostly Pioneers), as well as auditioned a friends Benchmark DAC1. For portable I have auditioned the FiiO E7 and E17.
Cheers,
Godmachine
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What did you think of the E17? I've heard lots of good things.
I guess tubes aren't for you. They aren't for everyone and its understandable. But hey look at it this way , no worry of dieing tubes , no worry of waiting for them to warm up. Solid state is much more convenient anyway. I'm not getting rid of my Valhalla since it compliments the HD650's I have so well.
I guess tubes aren't for you. They aren't for everyone and its understandable. But hey look at it this way , no worry of dieing tubes , no worry of waiting for them to warm up. Solid state is much more convenient anyway. I'm not getting rid of my Valhalla since it compliments the HD650's I have so well.
guitarslingerchris
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I don't know, I'd have sided with you about him spouting nonsense or far-fetched ideas until the point in time where I got a G19 and a smartphone on the same desk. They have to be more than 2 feet away from each other or my G19 goes absolutely apeshit, even when the phone is in airplane mode.
Godmachine
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GSM network phones interfere with just about everything. It use to drive me fucking nuts. I'll borrow my brother's phone (At&t iPhone 4S) and see if it makes my Valhalla go apeshit.
The difference is most audio equipment is designed to be shielded from interference from wireless signals, especially that which can be pretty pricey. However, tubes may be especially vulnerable, and I just couldn't be sure. Setting my phone to airplane mode and removing my wireless keyboard seemed to make little to no difference. Changing the distance of the receiver for my computers wireless also had no bearing. This led me to conclude, right or wrong, that interference was not the issue at hand.
Godmachine
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Hmm well then. Probably a defective unit then , which can happen.