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Schiit Audio

I have a Schiit Lyr and Schiit Bifrost. Pretty good Schiit!

Lyr sounds warmer than my old solid state amp for sure even with the stock tubes. Don't get them if you have low impedance phones though, the Lyr can destroy both your cans and your ears if you aren't careful.
 
Ha good stuff im trying to put together a headphone rig and schiit looked like a good route to go for an amp. Im thinking of pairing with AKG 701.
 
Valhalla and Bifrost with HD 650.

Loved the amp, but thought the dac was too bright. It grew on me, though.
 
I wish I had the Bifrost. I hope I can snag one at some point soon.

The amps are great. Well built and affordable. They're made in the USA with mostly USA sourced components.

The downside is that you're not supposed to use the amps as coffee warmers. This could be a problem for some.
 
I emailed Jason Stoddard back and forth for over a week and his replies were only minutes behind my questions. He gave me no bullshit answers and seems like a great guy.

I had my sights set on a Lyr + Bifrost combo for awhile but the Lyr would have been problematic for almost all of my headphones outside of the LCD-2 I have ordered so I then began looking seriously at the Asgard.

After emailing Jason back and forth he was completely honest about how his products would work for me as I was really trying for an all-in-one solution amp-wise. That eventually led me to getting the Burson HA-160D, but that's a different price category.

His last response to my question about middle ground:
Jason Stoddard said:
Bingo. There's no universal solution. Except our upcoming amp Mjolnir, which we'll have information on in a few days--but it will require re-termination of every single one of your headphones, since it's a balanced amp--and balanced only. And it's $750.
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Ya I've heard great things about their customer service. I think I'm gonna send him a message and see what he thinks my best option would be.
 
If you are thinking of spending that much money either buy the Objective2 or wait until NwAvGuy releases the ODAC and buy the O2 + ODAC combo. At least these products have measurably-excellent sound quality that isn't based on brand names and FOTM chips. NwAvGuy himself classifies Schiit as one of the FOTM companies that puts a bunch of cool-sounding parts inside the same box, unfortunately with shady engineering.

EDIT: change measurably-excellent to transparent in the above post. The sound of the O2 is not something you compare other devices to, it is the benchmark. Its sound quality is imperceptible to that of the Benchmark DAC1 PRE ($1400 studio quality interface).
 
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XacTactX said:
NwAvGuy himself classifies Schiit as one of the FOTM companies that puts a bunch of cool-sounding parts inside the same box, unfortunately with shady engineering.
Click to expand...

This is completely wrong as far as I know. NwAvGuy got banned from Head-Fi over a discussion on the Schiit Asgard and it's DC power down transient but he has never tested nor listened to any Schiit products as far as I know.

Beyond that, Schiit eventually stepped up and addressed the problem and NwAvGuy states so on his site.
 
Right, the power down transient is what I was referring to. I didn't know Schiit had corrected that issue, that's good to know.

My point still stands about the O2, go do some research on it OP, its by far the best headphone amp in your price range, at least TMK. (and I've been wrong before, like ^^^)
 
guitarslingerchris said:
This is completely wrong as far as I know. NwAvGuy got banned from Head-Fi over a discussion on the Schiit Asgard and it's DC power down transient but he has never tested nor listened to any Schiit products as far as I know.

Beyond that, Schiit eventually stepped up and addressed the problem and NwAvGuy states so on his site.
Click to expand...

The only thing to address is objective measurements. Anyone who tells you that you can't measure sound is either lying, or deluding themselves. It isn't magic, it is electrical engineering. For something to be worth paying for over something else it needs to measure better in some way. There's no point in paying for voodoo.

In the case of a headphone amp what you want is low output impedance (most important if you are using low impedance phones, but there are a lot of real popular low impedance phones), low noise, flat frequency response, and low distortion. If an amp can't do better in those regards, and really the output impedance, noise and distortion are the big ones, a flat FR in the audio range is trivial, then you aren't gaining anything audibly.

You really don't want tubes. Tubes are not as good as transistors for audio reproduction. They just aren't. They don't do as well for any of those things in a well designed circuit. While you can make a tube amp that measures pretty good, you can make a transistor amp that measures better for less. There's a reason they are pretty much only in the audiophile voodoo market. Where tubes are used today is when their distortion is desirable. Like guitar amps. Even a clean electric guitar has a good bit of distortion to its original signal. A completely dry electric guitar sounds like crap. Well tubes, when driven in to their non-linear region give really sweet guitar sound. Hence they are used for the very reason that they distort the audio.

Also getting banned from headfi isn't something I would see as a mark of shame, particularly. They have a LOT of audio voodoo people on there. I used to hang out there but I got really tired of all the bullshit arguments that more or less came down to "I spent a lot of money on my gear so I feel the need to believe it is better than everything else, without any evidence."
 
I'm not sure you understood the post at all. I stated that NwAvGuy had never reviewed or measured a Schiit product and that the previous poster was incorrect.

If all you want to do is reproduce the mixed sound you get then A LOT of stuff is painful to listen to because of bad mastering or bad recording. Tubes absolutely do cause distortion and definitely change the sound but I fail to understand how that is simply "wrong".

I own different headphones because I like the specifc way they taint the music and I own different amps for the same reason. Majority of the time I listen to stuff through my ATH-A900s fed by my STX from foobar bitperfect, blah blah and it's great but when I want to rock out I go for the Grados and my Little Dot MK III because the Grados have the crunch and the speed the AT's lack and the Little Dot rolls off the highs and makes their harshness more palatable.

I'm perfectly aware that what I'm listening to isn't identical to the recording but most of the time I'd rather it not be. Hell, my gear right now isn't even well matched but I still love the way that it sounds.
 
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That's OK when it comes to headphones, but the DAC and HPA sections are different. It is pointless to get a DAC or an HPA if it does not reproduce the original signal, as intended. Distortion and an inability to reproduce the amplified signal is unacceptable, period. On the other hand, if you like a certain headphone, as long as it sounds good to your ears (hopefully not just good, but ahhh-mazing) then more power to you. I just got the HiFiMan RE0 and it is so crisp, clear, and detailed. The instruments have solid placement and separation in the sound stage. Either way, jam!

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html

There are a few models on eBay, and JDSLabs also sells it, as well as Epiphany Acoustics. There's one on eBay that only costs $140 shipped, or $145 shipped with a solid aluminum front faceplate for $145. It is a steal in terms of sound quality. If I did not have a Titanium HD coming in the mail for $77 shipped I would get one of these. I'm a cheapass :p, but the O2 is a better investment in the long run. I'm sure I will not settle on the TiHD, but I think I will when I get the ODAC + O2 combo. :cool:
 
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Ok... but the thing is you can generally get that quite cheaply with digital filters. If I want to roll off the high end I have about 20 ways I can do that in the digital domain for no cost. Why would I want to spend more on an amp that does less just to do something I can do better, and more customizable, another way?

I certainly can get behind getting different headphones because there aren't any perfect ones, even at very high dollar amounts. Amps though, seems silly unless you have a LOT of money to spare. The Schitt amps do not seem like a good choice as a first headphone amp, particularly since they cost more than most headphones. It just defies reason to me when people will suggest getting an amp that costs more than what it is driving because I can tell you which one creates more sonic problems and is more costly to get right.

If you've plenty of money to spend on it, then do as you please. However to someone looking for a first headphone amp, I'm going to recommend something cheap that measures well because that is most likely to make people the happiest. You want rolled highs? Fire up an equalizer, they are cheap to do in digital.

Ideally, I think you really want a sound reproduction system that just disappears, it doesn't exist, or alter sound at all. You can't have that, but the closer you can get the better. Then, if there's anything you don't like, changing it is easy in digital.

So I say get something like the O2 because it is cheap and can back up what it does with numbers. When I am looking at something, I wish to see the tests behind it. Same reason I read HardOCP to decide about what graphics card to buy. I'm not interested in bullshit, I'm interested in numbers. Little harder with audio gear, you have to take some time to educate yourself as to what they mean, how to properly interpret AP/LinearX test results.

I'd say even more worth it though. At least with videocards, neither of the companies is selling bullshit. In the audio world, a lot of bullshit being sold.
 
mannyman said:
I have heard only good things.
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I have only heard bad things.

NwAvGuy has mentioned that they don't measure particularly well, and add coloration to the sound. Some people like this, interpret this as you see fit.
 
Schiit makes very good products, and if you have an issue their customer service is excellent. That being said, I've built two O2 amps and have the parts for a third. I'm nothing but happy with the amp, and if you're not into building your own JDS Labs should be your first choice imo. John at JDS has excellent customer service and will treat you right.

dcfn00022.jpg


dcfn0006.jpg
 
One can measure sound with objective charts (like frequency response curves), but in my opinion those are pretty meaningless overall. It turns out noise (crackling/hissing) in tracks is intentionally added more often than not (depending on genre of course). Distortion is going to be vastly more perceptible given the sound signature of your source and your headphones than the amplifier.

For example, if you are a person that listens to a lot of metal (which happens to be a genre with a lot of poorly mastered material), you're going to find that you hate reference headphones, because they will make the music sound awful. This doesn't mean that poorly mastered music is necessarily bad, just that listening to it on reference type gear is going to be a horrible experience. My point here is that getting every last little detail out of a track isn't necessarily beneficial. At times, it can be detrimental.

I would say that claiming the only way to measure sound quality is through objective measurements is inadequate, unless your only goal is to get as close to reference as possible. To my ears, and I'm sure for many others, reference gear sounds extremely cold, metallic, etc. Why would I want to spend money on a type of sound that is "correct" but makes me cringe?

Full disclosure: I have a Schiit Bifrost and Lyr. I have listened to both with HiFiMan HE-500s, Denon Ah-D5000s and Ultrasone PRO 900s.

Sycraft said:
The only thing to address is objective measurements. Anyone who tells you that you can't measure sound is either lying, or deluding themselves. It isn't magic, it is electrical engineering. For something to be worth paying for over something else it needs to measure better in some way. There's no point in paying for voodoo.

In the case of a headphone amp what you want is low output impedance (most important if you are using low impedance phones, but there are a lot of real popular low impedance phones), low noise, flat frequency response, and low distortion. If an amp can't do better in those regards, and really the output impedance, noise and distortion are the big ones, a flat FR in the audio range is trivial, then you aren't gaining anything audibly.

You really don't want tubes. Tubes are not as good as transistors for audio reproduction. They just aren't. They don't do as well for any of those things in a well designed circuit. While you can make a tube amp that measures pretty good, you can make a transistor amp that measures better for less. There's a reason they are pretty much only in the audiophile voodoo market. Where tubes are used today is when their distortion is desirable. Like guitar amps. Even a clean electric guitar has a good bit of distortion to its original signal. A completely dry electric guitar sounds like crap. Well tubes, when driven in to their non-linear region give really sweet guitar sound. Hence they are used for the very reason that they distort the audio.

Also getting banned from headfi isn't something I would see as a mark of shame, particularly. They have a LOT of audio voodoo people on there. I used to hang out there but I got really tired of all the bullshit arguments that more or less came down to "I spent a lot of money on my gear so I feel the need to believe it is better than everything else, without any evidence."
Click to expand...
 
Going to have to disagree with the Objective 2 being the "benchmark" reference amplifier. The high end electrostatics (Blue Hawaii), outclass it in every way possible.

XacTactX said:
If you are thinking of spending that much money either buy the Objective2 or wait until NwAvGuy releases the ODAC and buy the O2 + ODAC combo. At least these products have measurably-excellent sound quality that isn't based on brand names and FOTM chips. NwAvGuy himself classifies Schiit as one of the FOTM companies that puts a bunch of cool-sounding parts inside the same box, unfortunately with shady engineering.

EDIT: change measurably-excellent to transparent in the above post. The sound of the O2 is not something you compare other devices to, it is the benchmark. Its sound quality is imperceptible to that of the Benchmark DAC1 PRE ($1400 studio quality interface).
Click to expand...

EDIT: changed definitive to benchmark
 
shadow_419 said:
Schiit makes very good products, and if you have an issue their customer service is excellent. That being said, I've built two O2 amps and have the parts for a third. I'm nothing but happy with the amp, and if you're not into building your own JDS Labs should be your first choice imo. John at JDS has excellent customer service and will treat you right.

dcfn00022.jpg


dcfn0006.jpg
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So jelly :(
 
Don't want to turn this into an Objective 2 vs. others thread, but as an O2 owner/user I'll say it's a excellent little amp. In the cost : performance : size ratio, it punches way above it's price but it isn't the end all. It's a great amp that measures excellent, but it's not anywhere near a "benchmark" amp. Just search for "The Wire" amp and you can find an amp that has better measurements and power for an amp not much bigger. Working on putting one of those together, just waiting on parts to get shipped. :)
 
Benjus said:
Going to have to disagree with the Objective 2 being the "benchmark" reference amplifier. The high end electrostatics (Blue Hawaii), outclass it in every way possible.



EDIT: changed definitive to benchmark
Click to expand...

NwAvGuy engineered his amp to measure as well as the Becmark DAC1 does, and hes done a good job of achieving that. So you will be able to buy a amp for ~$150 that measures 99.99% as well as the Benchmark does. In my mind this clearly qualifies the amp as the "benchmark" reference.
 
shadow_419 said:
Build one! It's cheap and easy. I'm not exactly a soldering expert. I built each of mine for just under $100 total including shipping.
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I was going to ask you to build me one :) I am waiting on the upcoming Dac/Amp combo to be released.
 
Battou62 said:
NwAvGuy engineered his amp to measure as well as the Becmark DAC1 does, and hes done a good job of achieving that. So you will be able to buy a amp for ~$150 that measures 99.99% as well as the Benchmark does. In my mind this clearly qualifies the amp as the "benchmark" reference.
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Well you have to remember it's a Benchmark DAC, not a Benchmark amp. The amp in the Benchmark DAC 1 isn't a benchmark headphone amp imo, just a very good/excellent one.
 
shadow_419 said:
Schiit makes very good products, and if you have an issue their customer service is excellent. That being said, I've built two O2 amps and have the parts for a third. I'm nothing but happy with the amp, and if you're not into building your own JDS Labs should be your first choice imo. John at JDS has excellent customer service and will treat you right.

[]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3315/dcfn00022.jpg[/]

[]http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/5125/dcfn0006.jpg[/]
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Any chance you could list where you sourced the parts from?
 
I am not sure specifically where shadow got his from, but most DIY audio projects source from Mouser or DigiKey.
 
If all anyone cared about was perfect reproduction we'd be swimming in all manners of electro-stats all the way down to the budget mid-fi phones, or a bunch of K70X's and solid state amps.

Fact of the matter is a lot of people like the coloration of tube amps like the Valhalla/Lyr so they buy them. It's not a knock on the O2 at all to say that some people prefer the Lyr, or the Valhalla, or even the Asgard despite it not measuring as well as the O2. Keep in mind in comparison to amps of similar power and specs, the Lyr and Valhalla are bargains, honestly. Same with the Bifrost.
 
shadow_419 said:
Well you have to remember it's a Benchmark DAC, not a Benchmark amp. The amp in the Benchmark DAC 1 isn't a benchmark headphone amp imo, just a very good/excellent one.
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Still, the amp is pretty solid in the DAC1. If only my HE-6 didn't need so much power to sound decent, I would use its amp still. It is clear and precise and powers almost every headphone. 1.26 watts in 32ohms, less than 0.1 output impedance - it's great stuff for sure and matches well against plenty of more expensive standalone amplifiers.

I have a Schiit Lyr and it is affordable and excellent. Very clear, very strong, whatever. It amplifies strong enough for an HE-6 without clipping; something that honestly not many headphone amps can do.
 
So is the general consensus that the quality of the sound is all relative? I mean one would have to consider music type, whether you like a more warm or neutral sound, these sorts of things when purchasing an amp. I'm guessing my best bet is to audition the schiit and maybe build or buy an O2 to see what fits my needs better.
 
phreak144 said:
Any chance you could list where you sourced the parts from?
Click to expand...

Enclosures and spun aluminum volume knobs from Newark.

Guts (resistors/caps/opamps/ect.) and AC/AC adapter from Mouser.

PCB's and front panels were from group buys at DiyAudio, but you can get the PCB's, front panels, and enclosure from JDS Labs if you wish.

If you're really interested in building one yourself, check out NwAvGuy's blog.
 
Cubism Dream said:
So is the general consensus that the quality of the sound is all relative?
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You'll never get a consensus. Different people have different opinions. My opinion is that what you like in terms of sound is what matters most BUT I think expensive headphone amps are a waste. If you like something like recessed mids, just use a digital parametric EQ to get it cheaper, rather than getting an amp that has problems.

Ultimately you only need to make yourself happy. I'd just try and do it is economically as feasible. I wouldn't go and buy something expensive if there is a cheaper way to get the same thing.

However others will disagree with me. You won't get a consensus.
 
Sycraft said:
You'll never get a consensus. Different people have different opinions. My opinion is that what you like in terms of sound is what matters most BUT I think expensive headphone amps are a waste. If you like something like recessed mids, just use a digital parametric EQ to get it cheaper, rather than getting an amp that has problems.

Ultimately you only need to make yourself happy. I'd just try and do it is economically as feasible. I wouldn't go and buy something expensive if there is a cheaper way to get the same thing.

However others will disagree with me. You won't get a consensus.
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This , personally I think once you get past a certain spending point you get only incremental differences that will appeal to your sense of justification but ignore your sense of value.

I've heard DAC's and Amp's from the dirt cheap range up to around $4000 and I justify my opinion by observing this rule :

If I have to pick out the differences individually and its not blatantly apparent , then I've spent too much.

Don't run out and dump $500+ on a DAC/AMP without first listening to a cheaper solution (something under $100). And whatever you do , don't let someone tell you convince you otherwise. I'm sure if you could run a blind test for gear the results would send the audiophile world into denial.
 
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Cubism Dream said:
So is the general consensus that the quality of the sound is all relative?
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Words like quality are incredibly misleading in the audiophile realm. To me, quality means uninhibited and unmolested sound. To the more extreme quality can mean that unidentifiable X-factor that cannot be measured but their "trained" ears can pick up.

You can go pretty far with a parametric EQ and a sine wave generator but, to my knowledge, you won't recreate the tube noise "smoothness" without actual tubes mucking everything up. It's not what I want for everything but it definitely is for some. Honestly I'm somewhat concerned my Grados will become too harsh for me once I eventually grab a Violectric V100 or V200 later on and my Grados actually have proper damping.

In the end, regardless of what you want you really don't need to approach the realm of diminishing returns for audio gear to get incredible sound. As long as you can afford it and approach a purchase with a reasonable level of research beyond subjective voodoo then I see no problem in it.
 
Godmachine said:
If I have to pick out the differences individually and its not blatantly apparent , then I've spent too much.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. This may sound silly what I type, but bare with a brother.

That person needs to find that price point that works for them. 100 bucks was used as an example, so lets start there. HD555's (100bucks?) compared to the HD650's (400 bucks?) is very apparent in every aspect of...sound I guess. Amp may run you 150-200 bucks? I think most people will agree with that. 600 bucks might be the starting "audiophile" price point for most. To actually find that sound that satisfies. Where you can tell a night and day difference.

Going from the HD650's to the Denon AHD2000's was subtle, but a MUCH different sound. One that I preferred, so that cost again is worth it to me. There was no way I could "EQ" the Senns to sound like the Denons...nor would I personally want to. Just buy the Denons IMO. (This obviously isn't for everyone). This is where that "is it worth it" to YOU price kicks in, IMO. So again, 600 bucks or so...

Going from Denon to Hi-Fiman, again was subtle but not all that different. To me this was not worth it, but again liked the sound more so. Especially when it came to the soundstage. I absolutely would recommend the HiFiman's over the Denons. And I would say go straight to the 700 dollar headphones, and 400 buck amp to power em well. That's just me.

Once passed this price point though...I personally have not heard anything worth me spending 1k or more for headphones, and another 1k for the amp. My cousin lives by Senn and Woo Audio. He is rocking the 800's and a WA5 setup. We must put on a specific genre, look for a specific part of a song to be able to tell the little differences with his setup, and mine. He also has some BD T1's...and some Grado GS1K's. (which BTW I wonder how people like Grado's) Neither I would spend that type of money on. And fuck 3 grand on an amp...christ.

So to me, 1200 or so I can find audio happiness, and feel I have found that nice price sound/price median.
 
Another thing to remember is that fancy amplifiers and DACs are often just 'audiophile jewelry." Many audiophiles really would go into denial when presented with double blind tests -- hell, they do already! how many of them buy expensive cables and swear they hear the difference between 24/96 and 16/44.1? Goodness, it's extremely challenging in 99% of cases to even ABX 320kbps mp3 vs flac, and people still swear that 24/96 vs 16/44.1 is a gargantuan gulf of difference...

My rule of thumb: if it is endorsed and used by legitimate audio labs and studios, and its performance is measured on audio precision tools like what nwavguy uses, then it is legit. For example, the Benchmark DAC1 -- that is a seriously praised piece of very functional and versatile gear that measures well and is used by studio engineers. Or really expensive speakers -- some of the finest mastering studios in the world make good use of some of those ultra expensive 5-figure-cost audiophile speakers you see on 6moons or stereophile. The boutique amps and dacs and cables might be silly, but even the most exotic and exorbitant speakers still tend to be the real deal.

On the other hand, half the DACs made by those obscure, small-shop boutique audiophile companies are probably internally only as good as, or worse than a Benchmark DAC1, but with a fancier-looking case and triple the cost.

Speakers and headphones are really easy to test audible differences on, though. For example - headphones: it can be subtle, but I challenge anyone to go to a head-fi meetup, and personally try out the LCD3s and HE-6s HD800s and Stax SR-007s, and say that the difference between them and the $300 HD600 is difficult to notice. Now, the difference between and LCD-2 and an LCD-3 is going to feel more like an EQ difference than a quality difference. To be fair here, right around the $800 mark you hit some EXTREME diminishing returns on headphone "clarity" gains. I can totally agree and understand when people don't feel that the difference between $300 phones and $1000 is worth the horrifyingly large cost, but the difference is sound quality is totally present, in a big way.
 
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