SBS 2K3: How Can I demote DC to Workgroup?

Cannibal Corpse

Cannibal Corpse

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
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Hi All,
One of my clients, has a small dental office that has about 8 PCs connected to Server running Small Business Server 2003 (I believe R2?). The problem they are issuing is that the network is very slow (lot of crap on the Server).

All Workstations are running XP Pro SP2.

They have some proprietary dental software that can not be reinstalled (at least at the moment since they have lost the CDs) and in a sense, rebuilding the Server from scratch is out of question. (for now)

Believe me, I have assessed the environment and for such a small office, being on a domain is not worth the pain.

I really would like to know if there is a way to demote this Server from a Domain to a Work group environment. If so, would you be kind enough to let me know the step-by-step process (still learning! :)) and also I need to know if they still would be able to access all the data and shared resources on the server after this process.

Many thanks in advance.
 
What are the specs of this server? For only 8x PCs..there shouldn't be much CPU overhead with SBS. esp if you aren't using Exchange. Overhead from just the point of being a DC really isn't much at all.

What software are they running?

I've seen posts on preventing SBS from being a full blown DC...killing the sbscore process (sbscrexe.exe) and not continuing on with the install during the build. Haven't seen posts on if you're able to demote with another DCPROMO...I imagine it's possible, just wouldn't try it on a production server first.

Is this standard edition or premium? (ISA and SQL in the mix)

You would have to create new local user accounts, since domain user accounts would no longer be there. And flip the workstation over from logging into the domain, to local user accounts also in peer to peer mode.

What antivirus software? Tried tweaking it from that aspect?
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
Hi All,
One of my clients, has a small dental office that has about 8 PCs connected to Server running Small Business Server 2003 (I believe R2?). The problem they are issuing is that the network is very slow (lot of crap on the Server).

All Workstations are running XP Pro SP2.

They have some proprietary dental software that can not be reinstalled (at least at the moment since they have lost the CDs) and in a sense, rebuilding the Server from scratch is out of question. (for now)

Believe me, I have assessed the environment and for such a small office, being on a domain is not worth the pain.

I really would like to know if there is a way to demote this Server from a Domain to a Work group environment. If so, would you be kind enough to let me know the step-by-step process (still learning! :)) and also I need to know if they still would be able to access all the data and shared resources on the server after this process.

Many thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


Just curious what is the SW called? I've done some work at dental offices with network attached x-ray equip.

What do you hope to accomplish by demoting the server?
 
I haven't had chance to log into the server, they need to get the password from their previous IT guy, but I was hoping by doing so, I ease up the process, because as you know SBS has many services running in the background that they don't need it at.

In my experience, in such a small environment, Workgroup always works smoother, the thing that they are experiencing is that during crunch time and busy time, the server is really slow, and they have to reboot it (sometimes it helps but not always).

I definitely would like to take a look at the server and see what crap is installed on it (I saw an error message from PCAnywhere, and God knows what other clean-up it needs)

The other thing is early next year, they are going to add couple of more PCs and will be in a transition mode (will move PCs around, mostly in the back office), so I think even if they would be able to go into a Workgroup environment, it would be a temporary fix for them.

At that time, I guess we have no choice but to rebuild the server from scratch.

What do you recommend? I am hoping to accomplish this soon.
Many thanks again.
 
Since you haven't even logged into the server yet, i would wait on your plans to undo the domain.

When you actually get access to the server, check the logs to make sure nothing is going on that shouldn't be. I've had performance issues with machines that turned out to be bad blocks on the hard drive.

8 clients shouldn't be able to swamp much of any server, much less one that beefy enough to run win2k3.

Also, what is the networking setup like, switches/hubs? what speed are they running, what speed is the server connected to the network?

Just make sure you are careful, make sure you plan out exactly what you are doing, make backups, check for needed files in the domain user profiles, just CYA bigtime before screwing with someones business network.
 
I recommend keeping the domain. I also recommend bringing another server online; I would spec out about a 3-4 grand server with a dds backup solution and a full version of win2k3 server.

I would make this new box a DC of the domain ( I would also transfer the fsmo roles too, but that's just me ). I would also load this dental software server crap on the new server as well.

As it stands, your network is one server away from killing the entire network.

edit: What's the dental software? I used to work in a large dental office myself. :)
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
because as you know SBS has many services running in the background that they don't need it at.

and busy time, the server is really slow, and they have to reboot it (sometimes it helps but not always).

At that time, I guess we have no choice but to rebuild the server from scratch.

What do you recommend? I am hoping to accomplish this soon.
Many thanks again.
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Well..for one thing...I'd not look at such drastic actions in a production environment. I have a few dentists clients myself, usually running Dentrix, and more commonly...Eaglesoft/Patterson and PracticeWorks, Dexis, Sidexis, etc.

Does SBS have more running as far as processes than an average server? Yes. However...IMO, do these processes slow it down? I doubt it. A domain controller/infrastructure server...at your sized network..really doesn't do much work at all. For under 20x nodes...that thing is sitting there at idle. Maybe a spike of like 3% on the CPU for a few brief seconds.

Is this server really old? Like some Pentium 2 or 3 with less than 512 megs? That'd be a main reason I see it being slow...if that's the case, rebuilding it as a workgroup box isn't going to speed things up much.

Also tweaking things...antivirus, real time protection, etc. Stuffing RAM into the server is a cheap and effective performance boost often.

If you haven't even logged into the server yet to see the specs, to see how it's setup, tuned, etc...rushing to the idea of dcpromo'ing down..seems hasty to me. You'll probably have an easy 1/2 dozen hours or more in doing so. And what other services on the server would have to be reconfigured...online credit card batch processing. You go to try to ease things up for 1 program...reconfigure it..and find out later on that 11x other programs are now hosed.
 
Thanks for all your inputs. I will definitely make another trip and get the server specs first. As you mentioned there is no way I am going to touch or demote the server in this state, I will definitely backs its data up and clone it (using Acronis) on couple of different drives.

The thing is, this is my first major Networking and I don't want to screw it up! :)

Thanks for being so patient with me!

I will update you on the progress.
 
Good luck.

Demoting the DC to a workgroup, not sure if it can be done, but the workstations would still connect to it if they are now.

Is that software data stored on the server, but run locally?
Also check the DNS on the workstations, they should all be pointing to the server, NOT the ISP's dns server.
 
Ok, after reviewing the information, you will want to leave all systems in the DC. Reason being that dentrix seems to be installed in a flat file setup; You will want a central repository for user creds instead of maintaining 8-12 seperate boxes for this.

Go with my original idea, and throw in an extra DC so you can take one of the other DCs down without risking the entire network. This is a dental office, so they have the money to do it right ( and even if they don't, ask how much downtime is worth to them ).
 
You can jstu run DCpromo again to remove active directory and essetially remove the DC. However DONT DO IT!!!!!! adding extra machines to a DC is very easy and takes about 2 minutes. as far as the server goes with a password as long as you can touch it with your hand i can show you how to beat that password with out touching the OS or the AD. PM me and ill hook ya up.
 
I don't think a SBS server can be anything but a PDC. At least, that's in my experience.
 
XOR != OR said:
Ok, after reviewing the information, you will want to leave all systems in the DC. Reason being that dentrix seems to be installed in a flat file setup; You will want a central repository for user creds instead of maintaining 8-12 seperate boxes for this.

Go with my original idea, and throw in an extra DC so you can take one of the other DCs down without risking the entire network. This is a dental office, so they have the money to do it right ( and even if they don't, ask how much downtime is worth to them ).
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yes,

Apteryx is a flat file DB system as well. I don't think going to a workgroup is going to solve anything. You need to determine if the hardware meets their requirements. You can turn of MS SQL if they don't use it for anything.
 
I was thinking:

1- Build a new PC and install Server 2003 on it

2- Join this new Server 2003 to the existing domain

3- Disjoin all Desktops from the Domain and add them to a Workgroup

4 - Promote this newly built Server 2003 to a DC

5 - Transfer all user profiles and data from SBS to this new Server 2003

6 - Demote this newly built Server 2003 and join to the workgroup

7 - Take SBS out of the pictture

The software that they use is Dentrix that has a flat database residing on a share in SBS, so theoretically, it should work.

Please correct me!

Thanks for all your patience with me!
 
AMD[H]unter said:
I don't think a SBS server can be anything but a PDC. At least, that's in my experience.
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yeah i was going to say the same thing. the one time i set up a SBS at one of my customer sites, the only option was a domain controller. SBS doesnt appear to be designed to run as a stand alone.

if you do successfully demote the server, the client will all lose their connections, as the domain accounts they were using to access the server will be vapor. each computer would have to be manually reconfigured, and then you run the risk of unsuccessful profile migrations, and the list of risks goes on and on.
 
They definitely don't need SQL, Exchange and none of that.

The workstations are ALL XP Pro. Memory wise they have 256 (only one system has 512, I guess).

4 of them (out of 8) have P4s, rest are Celeron 2.5s.

I HAVE to get into the Server (soon) so I need to determine its characteristics.

When they were noticing the lag yesterday, the office manager reset the system (was told to do so by the previous IT guy I guess), so I noticed it was on a RAID configuration. (didn't catch it, the message went away real fast), but I can tell you it is a MONSTER (huge case, lot of removable racks) and such.

The sad thing is that none of these matter when the system is slow (the manager and rest of front office crew don't understand the technology, no disrespect to them obviously). All these are good for learning, but the question remains:

Does a small dental office really requires SBS, SQL, Exchange? NO.

In my opinion even a XP Pro (10 connection) would do a better job. You have to realize the requirements:

Each PC doing their thing, then they hit the server using a share folder and lastly share a Printer or two. As simple as that! Why complicate things? I mean I understand the need for a Domain and its importance, but its application in this context is equal or less than even an XP Pro (as someone mentioned, the max spike on its CPU might be 3%).

Please correct me if I am wrong...
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
I was thinking:

1- Build a new PC and install Server 2003 on it

2- Join this new Server 2003 to the existing domain

3- Disjoin all Desktops from the Domain and add them to a Workgroup

4 - Promote this newly built Server 2003 to a DC

5 - Transfer all user profiles and data from SBS to this new Server 2003

6 - Demote this newly built Server 2003 and join to the workgroup

7 - Take SBS out of the pictture

The software that they use is Dentrix that has a flat database residing on a share in SBS, so theoretically, it should work.

Please correct me!

Thanks for all your patience with me!
Click to expand...

this is a hell of a lot of work, and at great risk to your clients medical practice. you really need to get to the bottom of why its running so slow.

exactly what actions run slow? how is their dns? when was the last time basic maintenance was performed, such as defragmenting the filesystem, and other basic nonsenses that microsoft needs?
 
agreed that a domain on a 10 user set up is a lot of over kill that probably was not required. However if the network is already set up with that and you add to that proprietory software that you dont know how to admin. Leave the DC in place and move on.
 
believe me, keep it simple.

IMO, SBS is set up exactly like it was supposed to be. reconfiguring *every* in their office is not going to be the way to go.

if it was 3 computers, i would set up a domain. the advantages of having a domain significantly outweigh the advantages of not having one. remember, that this dentist office is... "a small business". im sure this server and the 10 XP clients are functioning exactly as microsoft intended.

(and ill be surprised if a SBS can be demoted)
 
Sharaz Jek said:
great risk to your clients medical practice.
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Agreed. you are talking about a medical practice whihc is heavily regulated by the law. If you mess that up they stand to get sued and in turn you would to. Leave the DC alone and find the root cause of the other issues. Much safer that way.
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
They definitely don't need SQL, Exchange and none of that.

The workstations are ALL XP Pro. Memory wise they have 256 (only one system has 512, I guess).

4 of them (out of 8) have P4s, rest are Celeron 2.5s.

I HAVE to get into the Server (soon) so I need to determine its characteristics.

When they were noticing the lag yesterday, the office manager reset the system (was told to do so by the previous IT guy I guess), so I noticed it was on a RAID configuration. (didn't catch it, the message went away real fast), but I can tell you it is a MONSTER (huge case, lot of removable racks) and such.

The sad thing is that none of these matter when the system is slow (the manager and rest of front office crew don't understand the technology, no disrespect to them obviously). All these are good for learning, but the question remains:

Does a small dental office really requires SBS, SQL, Exchange? NO.

In my opinion even a XP Pro (10 connection) would do a better job. You have to realize the requirements:

Each PC doing their thing, then they hit the server using a share folder and lastly share a Printer or two. As simple as that! Why complicate things? I mean I understand the need for a Domain and its importance, but its application in this context is equal or less than even an XP Pro (as someone mentioned, the max spike on its CPU might be 3%).

Please correct me if I am wrong...
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A freind and i spent a lot of time fixing a setup that you are talking about moving to. XP 'server' is bad. here is the deal you get 10 connections

you map a drive to the apteryx share then lauch apterex from the drive and that burns 2 connections.

It does sound like SBS was a poor choice. The issue here is you have a bunch of services you don't need. And SBS CALs cost more because of exhange and SQL.

Before you look at anything else. I would identify the server hwardware specs. Then look at the system performance. how cpu is it avg, how much free physical ram, how much is it paging. waht kind of disk subsystem?

Also checkout out the network. This is key. make sure you get 100 Full connections without any errors. could have duplex mis-mtach which might cause the "server' to appear slow because of all the retransmitted data.

At the Dental office Nybbles82 and I worked on they din't even have UTP cable. There were no twists in the wire at all when we inspected it. Which explains why they couldn't even get 10Mb/Half duplex to be stable. we we had to run all new cat5e.
 
Well....here's some main problems right there.

Windows XP...and 256 megs. :rolleyes:
Celeron processors..and Windows XP :rolleyes: Celerons have had no purpose in life since the Win98 days and overclocking the snot out of 300a processors on Abit BH6's to 504MHz to play Quake 2.

Celerons and any PC below 512 megs on a business network. :rolleyes:

What's next....some 9 dollar CNET 10 base hub connecting the network?

It doesn't matter how "monstrous" the server is...it could be some old 7200rpm SCSI drives with a P2 400 processor. Matter of fact..if it's HUGE...I'll bet it's ancient. So doesn't matter what you strip down on it...if it's old and slow..it's old and slow.

On any network above 1/2 a dozen PCs...I would take a full proper server OS over any desktop OS any day of the week. Yeah desktop OS's have that 10 concurrent connection limit..but they lose efficiency before that. Servers are designed to be much more efficient..even SBS with all those extra services which are needlessly being blamed for perceived sluggishness..will run circles around some XP box trying to run as a server when it comes under a good load.

SQL....do you know for a fact this is SBS Premium? It may not have SQL installed..even if so...you can...oh my gosh...UNINSTALL SQL!!!! Exchange...if they're not using Exchange...it's not doing much at all..my SBS box here at home...I have one active mailbox on it...and it uses a whopping 65 megs. If I'm not sending lots of mail back and forth...not really any measureable CPU usage.


Cannibal Corpse said:
They definitely don't need SQL, Exchange and none of that.

The workstations are ALL XP Pro. Memory wise they have 256 (only one system has 512, I guess).

4 of them (out of 8) have P4s, rest are Celeron 2.5s.

I HAVE to get into the Server (soon) so I need to determine its characteristics.

but I can tell you it is a MONSTER (huge case, lot of removable racks) and such..
Click to expand...
 
I think I can sum up this thread;

1) The desktop machines are part of the problem. They need to be upgraded. Given the size of the dental office, I can well imagine the mentality of the purchaser when these were bought. Further, I can imagine telling them they need to replace it all. So while it's a very good idea to upgrade them now, you will likely be waiting for them to fail before that happens.

2) Test the backbone; Setup an FTP server and transfer a large file back and forth. Measure the throughput.

3) You need a domain. It's not slowing anything down, and is in fact providing a much needed central auth repository.

4) Bring more AD servers online. At least two more. Move the dentrix file folder off the SBS box and on to one of the new ones ( a thought just occured to me; What some techs enjoyed doing was to store everything, including the exes, on the network share. During peak load times, this would cause slow downs. Move the exes local if that's the case, and see if it perks up ).

Now, to add to this, I would recommend getting a tape backup solution. Small office could probably get away with a dds drive, but don't sell yourself short; Evaluate your needs, and if you look to be using 100gigs of data over the next 5 years, go DTL or LTO. They can afford it, more than likely.
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
The thing is, this is my first major Networking and I don't want to screw it up! :)
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Nothing personal, but if you really don't want to screw it up, back away from the job and let someone who knows and understands what they're looking at do it. Sound harsh? Maybe. But you're making uninformed decisions about a BUSINESS. If they've retained you, they apparently think you have the knowledge to troubleshoot this and make good decisions on their behalf.

SBS is not overkill for an 8 client network, especially in a medical environment. If there are extra features running, they can be removed or disabled. Ever hear of HIPAA ? Your client has. It's the law for medical service providers. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. They focus heavily on security, and an audit trail. Due diligence to prevent unauthorized access to information. A domain environment provides part of this was user authentication and permissions, and its ability to provide security audits. This is serious stuff. A workgroup environment in a medical office would be a circus.

This is not a training ground.
 
twwabw said:
Nothing personal, but if you really don't want to screw it up, back away from the job and let someone who knows and understands what they're looking at do it. Sound harsh? Maybe. But you're making uninformed decisions about a BUSINESS. If they've retained you, they apparently think you have the knowledge to troubleshoot this and make good decisions on their behalf.

SBS is not overkill for an 8 client network, especially in a medical environment. If there are extra features running, they can be removed or disabled. Ever hear of HIPAA ? Your client has. It's the law for medical service providers. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. They focus heavily on security, and an audit trail. Due diligence to prevent unauthorized access to information. A domain environment provides part of this was user authentication and permissions, and its ability to provide security audits. This is serious stuff. A workgroup environment in a medical office would be a circus.

This is not a training ground.
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I agree and disagree. I agree that i dont think you know exactly what your getting into however the first rule that any one should follow is that admit you dont know it all. Take this as a learning experience. Find someone who is knowledgable in this type of work and have them do the work with you. Everything this practice is going to pay you will go to this other person but you will learn valuable things that will help you down the road. Not to mention the practice will be appreciative that you where able to facilitate their repaires even though you personally did not do it your self and will probably call on you again.
 
Well, as it turned out, I have agreed to not touch the domain at all and leave it be.

The only thing that I will be doing is to first clean-up the workstations, and copy their data to a removable drive. When the time comes for a major upgrade, I will upgrade their workstations (or replace them with new ones)

This network system has been created by three different individuals, at different times, for example I notices they had 'AnyDVD' (with some VIDEO_TS files in the Recycling Bin) along with SpyWare removal, iTunes, and crap like that.

I am asking only a $999 per month for service and support (no trip charges, phone support included, three monthly backups, etc., not exceeding 20 hours per month. Do you think it is fair? (the guys is really cheap and a sharp businessman and negotiator)

At this point, am I open to all your suggestions.
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
I am asking only a $999 per month for service and support (no trip charges, phone support included, three monthly backups, etc., not exceeding 20 hours per month. Do you think it is fair? (the guys is really cheap and a sharp businessman and negotiator)

At this point, am I open to all your suggestions.
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If you feel your services are only worth about $50 an hour thats your business but I can't see you charging any more since you have little to no experience in business IT.

If the backbone of the network isn't functioning correctly, then it does not matter if a workstation is new or not, the network will not perform as expected. Ideally the base infrastructure should be assessed and functioning prior to upgrading workstations.

Backups should be done daily and a copy rotated offsite everyday.
 
since you have little to no experience in business IT.
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Wow, talk about harsh. Just because I don't have enough experience with Small Business Server, it is not fair to say that I have NO experience in IT.

The reason I am charging 'low' is because he negotiated it a lot, it doesn't mean I don't know 'anything'.

I don't take it personal at all, thanks for your comments anyways.
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
Wow, talk about harsh. Just because I don't have enough experience with Small Business Server, it is not fair to say that I have NO experience in IT.

The reason I am charging 'low' is because he negotiated it a lot, it doesn't mean I don't know 'anything'.
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Harsh yes, but that is only because I have seen my fair share of screw ups done by very inexperienced "techs". Others here have also pointed out your lack of business IT experience as well. Your posts about what to do with the customer's environment reveal you have a severe lack of experience in not only SBS, but dealing with business IT environments as a whole.

We don't negotiate our rates because our time is very valuable in the knowledge and experience we provide to a customer. If they don't like what we bill, then they can find someone else for less, but we guarantee they will not get the same level of service.

You charge what you feel your time is worth, nothing more and nothing less. The customer negotiated you down because you let him.
 
I know you've made your decision but here's something you might want to know about SBS. It HAS to be promoted to a DC shortly after install. It is the way the license for the OS is. I can not be run as a workgroup "server". It will b*tch and moan about wanting to be promoted. I installed the OS on a test machine and after a week or so, it complained.
 
It can be the DC, but you dont have to have the workstation joiined to the domain, thay can be on a workgroup
 
dbwillis said:
It can be the DC, but you dont have to have the workstation joiined to the domain, thay can be on a workgroup
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what the hell would be the point of that?

You still need to size up this server and make sure its running ok.
 
Cannibal Corpse said:
Wow, talk about harsh. Just because I don't have enough experience with Small Business Server, it is not fair to say that I have NO experience in IT.

The reason I am charging 'low' is because he negotiated it a lot, it doesn't mean I don't know 'anything'.

I don't take it personal at all, thanks for your comments anyways.
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I kinda agree with him on this just by reading how you wanted to go about the removal of a domain when you hadn't had a chance to really even look at the server.

Really when you start hitting 5 or more users a server starts to become an option in most networks. Really the advantages of having a domain far outweight your want to remove it. Hell I would think it would be more of a pain to run without a domain. SBS can have a lot of extra process running or you can clean them up if you are not going to use functions of it. Considering SBS is cheaper then standard server it is a very good deal. As others have said I would look into any errors on the server and check the specs of it. Make sure it has enough memory in it and that it is not some real old POS. I would put in an upgrade plan for you to start to drop 512 stick of ram in those machines as well. Also look into the network equment. Make sure you are on a pretty good switch and make sure DNS and DHCP are setup right. Really if you don't have any experience with SBS or Server with the various addons that SBS comes with you may want to pass this off to someone who knows what they are doing.
 
As a bit of side income i dont see that you undercharged simply for this reason. If you seriosly spend 20 hours per month working on 5 workstations there is seriously something wrong with them and you should format and start over. Go thru them and get them set up properly and they should be very self suffient. As well depending on the length of contract you signed, If its a guarenteed 1k every month for 12 month supporting 5 workstations then to me thats ok. If it was a one time deal I personlly would charge more but I feel i have a few years experience on you. For your first contract and the learning experience it should work out. However please heed this advice. Admit when you are over your head!!!!! and get assistance from someone who has more experience then you.
 
delemorte said:
As a bit of side income i dont see that you undercharged simply for this reason. If you seriosly spend 20 hours per month working on 5 workstations there is seriously something wrong with them and you should format and start over. Go thru them and get them set up properly and they should be very self suffient. As well depending on the length of contract you signed, If its a guarenteed 1k every month for 12 month supporting 5 workstations then to me thats ok. If it was a one time deal I personlly would charge more but I feel i have a few years experience on you. For your first contract and the learning experience it should work out. However please heed this advice. Admit when you are over your head!!!!! and get assistance from someone who has more experience then you.
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That makes it a better deal for the op. Most months I would think he will spend less then 10 not counting travel time. Big thing is how does he do the minimum charge. In the firm I work for we have a minimum of an hour and a half per visit. That pretty much makes up for travel time as most minor visits can be done in 45 minutes or so and most of are clients are in less then a 30 minute drive. We plan the day well and you hit them in order of distance.

As far as SJ's we don't negotiate take I don't fully agree with that but you need to be careful when you do negotiate with someone. Are rates varry by client based on setup and other factors. For the most part we don't negotiate on rates but hours can be lowered every once in a while. IE we had to go fix someone and it turns out one of our guys should have set it up different or we made an error so we eat some hours. A lot of our clients would have barked at not being able to negotiate. The process is kinda simple though. We just start higher with the rates and let them think they are getting a better deal then they are. I also think my boss will drop the rate if we do a lot of work somewhere in a short time. IE we put in 20 hours at a client in a week for whatever reason when we maybe do 10 a month normal then he would give them a discount because of theextra business. Really seems to make a lot of them happy as it shows some appreciation.
 
I dunno about you folks, but I won't sign contracts that don't pay me hourly rates. A flat fee is a dangerous thing; The only way I'll sign one of those is if that flat fee can support be solely very well. People have a way of monopolizing my time, so I won't get myself stuck in a trap where I'm contractually obligated to not eat for a month because I couldn't work other jobs due to a single client.

The other way I'll sign one of those is if there is an escape clause; One which allows me to terminate the contract with no penalties to myself.
 
swatbat said:
As far as SJ's we don't negotiate take I don't fully agree with that but you need to be careful when you do negotiate with someone. Are rates varry by client based on setup and other factors .
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Different areas require different tactics and rates I agree. All too often I get phone calls asking how much we charge, I quote an hourly rate and get hammered with "well I can go to XYZ and they don't charge that much". I'll explain to them why we charge what we do, but damn, I am not lowering our hourly rate just because some other place charges less. We value our time highly so in effect we charge accordingly.

swatbat said:
For the most part we don't negotiate on rates but hours can be lowered every once in a while. IE we had to go fix someone and it turns out one of our guys should have set it up different or we made an error so we eat some hours. A lot of our clients would have barked at not being able to negotiate .
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That is not negotiating, but good customer service. If a tech doesn't do the job right the first time, then the right way to handle things is to fix the problem and not bill for the 2nd trip.

swatbat said:
I also think my boss will drop the rate if we do a lot of work somewhere in a short time. IE we put in 20 hours at a client in a week for whatever reason when we maybe do 10 a month normal then he would give them a discount because of theextra business. Really seems to make a lot of them happy as it shows some appreciation.
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I look at it differently, if we spend 20 hours on a client site where normally they do 10, they get billed for the entire amount at the expected rate. We were hired to do a job and we are certainly not a charity.
 
OK, we seem to have covered everything relating to what the OP knows and doesn't know. Lets forget about that for a moment and try to understand what the actual problem is with the network.

Your customer is complaining that SOMETHING is slow. What exactly is it they are describing? Is it a long login in the morning when they first come in? Is the actual process of using their Dental software slow? Do they use the internet at all in the office?

Let us hear some details so that we can help teach you how a SBS network is supposed to be setup properly.
 
Thanks for all your input. I have signed this contract on a 12 months based agreement, the limit that I have it if it goes over 20 hours, I will charge hourly ($40), and if they terminate the contract, they have signed to pay 1 month worth of service.

I am planning to upgrade 8 workstations one by one, then troubleshoot the server.

Then, if everything is all well (domain and SBS intact that is), routinely service them.

Its like, they are having an IT person in their office, everyday for 1 hour.

Oh, I have a very close friend that is very knowledgeable in Severs, so I will split (or give 75%) the profit, when it comes to touching the Server or optimizing the domain. I just sit, watch, take notes and learn ;)

This is my very first contract, give me a break guys! :rolleyes:
 
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