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Rubber Gloves and PCBs

N

Notquiteanewbie

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 9, 2004
Messages
221
Wasn't quiet sure where to post this, but I was wondering if anyone uses rubber gloves while working on their system. I have the wrist strap but I've seen those anti static gloves and was wondering if regular latex gloves would work, to some degree, just as well.

(Coming to the realization that I might have fried my first PCB)
Not too happy with myself
 
I have NEVER used any kind of static strap or anything for protection, never really killed anything either. If I did screw something up it was for an obvious reason.
 
i dont wear either, and i never will. ive never fried anything due to static.

rubber golves IMO would just be a huge PITA
 
It should work fine, latex isnt a conduct of electricity

just watch out for your wrists and arms touching anything while handling and you should be set.
 
actually, rubber gloves might just cause problems, because they can build up a static charge. Static is due to a potential difference between two parts, and the 'zap' is the potential evening itself out. The best way to avoid static discharge into your expensive parts is to make sure everything is at the same potential. the best way to do that is to make sure you and your parts are electrically connected to a common ground. i.e. touch your case while it's plugged in, before touching your parts.
 
i dont wear either, and i never will.
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seems to be asking for trouble but who knows maybe your in a friendly environment, where static electricity doesn't exist.

this is my first computer failure has definitely done a number on my ego and has humbled me to a great deal.
 
Of the many thousands of computers I've worked on and built, I've never killed anything with static. In fact most experienced techs laugh when we see the wrist straps.
 
Originally posted by tdg
Of the many thousands of computers I've worked on and built, I've never killed anything with static. In fact most experienced techs laugh when we see the wrist straps.
Click to expand...

If I was paying somebody to work on my computer, I would DEMAND that they wear a strap. If it's your own stuff, fine, but you don't mess with other people's stuff. Most people use an anti-static pad or something, but you can't risk screwing your customers because one day you happen to zap their stuff. That's unprofessional.
 
I would rather be safe thats all. I mean I'm from Boston, its cold as hell up here right now, half my room is carpet, and its WICKED dry.
 
well really it boils down to common sense.
if you know your in an environment that has static, how do you get rid of it? grab the case while its plugged in, it goes right to ground.
 
I would not use latex or rubber gloves while working on a system. As someone already mentioned, they will more than likely build up a charge and in the long run fry something. If you want an example, just think of what happens when you rub a balloon on your hair or something. Something simlar would probably happen while wearing the gloves while working on a computer.
 
Originally posted by Notquiteanewbie
I would rather be safe thats all. I mean I'm from Boston, its cold as hell up here right now, half my room is carpet, and its WICKED dry.
Click to expand...

There is a very easy way to solve the problem of it being dry. Get a humidifier and run it. They don't cost much and you'll probably be more comfortable anyway.
 
Originally posted by defcom_1
If I was paying somebody to work on my computer, I would DEMAND that they wear a strap. If it's your own stuff, fine, but you don't mess with other people's stuff. Most people use an anti-static pad or something, but you can't risk screwing your customers because one day you happen to zap their stuff. That's unprofessional.
Click to expand...

I rarely see techs wear those ridiculous straps...

The fact is static *rarely* harm if any at all. There a far better chance of accidently ripping a cap off a motherboard then static discharge hurting anything.

I have talked to friends that graduated electrical engineering, they tend to think that more of a myth in the electronics world. Even way back when electroic devices were finding themselves in most common products that were used for medical/automotive testing, the companies would recall the products and refit them with supposed static protection inside around the electronics. Later it was found it was just a cash grab and it did absolutly nothing.

I havent even really ehard of someone frying something from static, more like user error or an error in instalation, mabey overvolting, possibly overheated etc.

Blaming static seems to be as common as always blaming the powersupply for things.
 
I no first hand static ,can cause major problems ..aka Las Vegas ,NV. Worst static ..ever seen in my life..would use all tools there ..then again that was 1980-83..not much in the pc world then ..I have never used (besides grounding my-self first ) any type of stactic grounding device ( dude what else is going on with those gloves ? ) lol
 
Originally posted by Big Worm
I rarely see techs wear those ridiculous straps...


...

Blaming static seems to be as common as always blaming the powersupply for things.
Click to expand...

Just because you rarely see techs wear static straps doesn't mean that people shouldn't while they are working on their machines. If static wasn't a problem, why would companies make tons and tons of ESD safe items, such as soldering irons, work mats, tools, straps, etc? Yes, they are in buisness for a profit in the end, but if it wasn't a problem, the *real* techs wouldn't buy them at all. Ever heard of anyone buying elephant repelent in America? You get the point. All I am saying is that the potential of static electricity to damage electronics is too great to risk not using a static strap. Also, saying that since it's never gotten you that it is a myth is ridiculous. I've stood in the middle of the street before, but never been hit by a car. Therefore, I declare that looking both ways before crossing the street is unnecissary.
 
Originally posted by Vertigo Acid
Just because you rarely see techs wear static straps doesn't mean that people shouldn't while they are working on their machines. If static wasn't a problem, why would companies make tons and tons of ESD safe items, such as soldering irons, work mats, tools, straps, etc? Yes, they are in buisness for a profit in the end, but if it wasn't a problem, the *real* techs wouldn't buy them at all. Ever heard of anyone buying elephant repelent in America? You get the point. All I am saying is that the potential of static electricity to damage electronics is too great to risk not using a static strap. Also, saying that since it's never gotten you that it is a myth is ridiculous. I've stood in the middle of the street before, but never been hit by a car. Therefore, I declare that looking both ways before crossing the street is unnecissary.
Click to expand...

They sell static protection because people believe it will kill here PC equipment like the black plague.

Hmm I wonder if I should look into some kind of protection for me dropping my PC or harddrive on the ground.. Since you know That has claimed a few of my purchased computer parts in the past, while static has claimed zero:rolleyes:
 
simple solution is to leave ur case plugged in while ur working on it...just turn off the mains switch and PSU switch, the case will be without power but very much earthed
 
ESD is definitely not a myth. However I think it's a bit overstated. The chances of actually killing something with a static electricity shock are slim. However slim, I've seen it happen more than a couple times.

ESD control in a manufacturing facility, make sense, because the components are handled by different people, multiple times. If there were no ESD control, each person handling a component would discharge static electricity (even slight amounts that they can't feel) which could cause the component to fail.

Technicians and Engineers don't usually worry much about ESD because most have built a habit of grounding themselves to a grounded chassis before touching ESD sensitive parts.
 
I just make sure the PSU is plugged into the outlet and i frequently touch the back of the metal plate before i handle my hardware. IF the PSU isn't plugged in, the case is NOT grounded. Other then that i just try to stay away from things that build up alot of static like carpeting and beds. My room downstairs is alot concrete so i have plenty of room to work.
 
Its been half a month since I posted my ESD rant :p

http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r10/bombay/news2/story11.htm
According to recent studies conducted by the AT & T Bell labs, 25 % of all component failures today are related to E.S.D and out of all defective components that arrive 50%are damaged by E.S.D. the annual damage due to these failures is estimated at 25 Billion dollars

An Integrated Circuit (IC) consists of several transistors fabricated on one chip. Due to the advances in L.S.I and V.L.S.I thousands of transistors are crowded on a single chip. By decreasing the thickness of the gate oxides and interconnecting lines the manufacturers hope to achieve much higher speeds at very low power consumption. But under these conditions if the Electrostatic Discharge passes through an IC and the current that results is not diverted or diminished by a suitable protective mechanism, the discharge may raise the temperature of the junction inside the component to melting point which will cause damage to the junction or interconnecting lines. Since surface mount devices are smaller than conventional ICs they are even more susceptible to E.S.D damage. E.S.D causes two main types of failures: -

1. Immediate failure where the effect can be readily seen by the equipment manufacturer.

2. Delayed failure where the device is damaged only upto the point where it may pass quality control tests, but wears out sooner than its rated time


http://www.esda.org/esdbasics1.htm

Table 2
Examples of Static Generation
Typical Voltage Levels

Means of Generation .........10-25% RH ......65-90% RH
Walking across carpet ......,35,000V ...........1,500V
Walking across vinyl tile ....12,000V ............250V
Worker at bench ................6,000V .............100V
Chair with urethane foam ..18,000V ...........1,500V

ESD Damage—How Devices Fail
Electrostatic damage to electronic devices can occur at any point from manufacture to field service. Damage results from handling the devices in uncontrolled surroundings or when poor ESD control practices are used. Generally damage is classified as either a catastrophic failure or a latent defect.

Catastrophic Failure
When an electronic device is exposed to an ESD event it may no longer function. The ESD event may have caused a metal melt, junction breakdown, or oxide failure. The device's circuitry is permanently damaged causing the device fail. Such failures usually can be detected when the device is tested before shipment. If the ESD event occurs after test, the damage will go undetected until the device fails in operation.

Latent Defect
A latent defect, on the other hand, is more difficult to identify. A device that is exposed to an ESD event may be partially degraded, yet continue to perform its intended function. However, the operating life of the device may be reduced dramatically. A product or system incorporating devices with latent defects may experience premature failure after the user places them in service. Such failures are usually costly to repair and in some applications may create personnel hazards.

It is relatively easy with the proper equipment to confirm that a device has experienced catastrophic failure. Basic performance tests will substantiate device damage. However, latent defects are extremely difficult to prove or detect using current technology, especially after the device is assembled into a finished product.


Static Electricity - Electrostatic Discharge (ESD)

"Most books or articles indicate that a spark can't be seen until the voltage on your body reaches between 450 to 750 VDC. Others indicate that they are very hard to notice until it reaches 1000 VDC. For most people, to feel a shock from a static electricity discharge the voltage is between 2,000-4,000V. A 0.5mm arch of static electricity carries approximately 2850V."

Semiconductor Electromigration In-Depth

Ground that mat, wriststrap and if possible humidify the environment ;)

Originally posted by SB22
. As long as you didn't feel any sort of "shoch" between you and your equipment, you should be fine.
Click to expand...

ESD Susceptibility Analysis

"ESD votages sufficient to damage semiconductor devices are often lower than the threshold of human sensory perception, making a person unaware that a static discharge has taken place"


Originally posted by Deadlierchair
Wow, good post Ice Czar...but to not be totally anal about all of those things, would it be pretty much safe to touch stuff if I touch the metal on my case while it is off, but still plugged in and grounded?
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thats the basic proceedure most employ, its best if you do that like every other move, and be aware of exactly how much RH (Relative Humidity) influences Static Discharge
Taking great care to never touch any chip or lead, handling only the PCB, perferably by the edges.

the other point of my post is that while the immediate cause and effect relationship of catastrophic failure, using the "typical" proceedure is low...

This board is filled every day with people who have developed RAM errors, data corruption problems (generally RAM) ect, Most of which can be traced to either poor power regulation (Transient Response) of the PSU, or ESD

Latent defects caused by ESD in any IC (and they are just everywhere from HDDs to NIC, CPU, RAM ect) are massively underated as a cause of problems. If you have eliminated power fluctuation problems (PSU voltage regulation and power conditioning) and still experience a component failure, odds are that it was a latent defect, either from installation, or one that wasnt caught during manufacturing.
the membership displays a cavalier attitude towards this issue for 2 reasons, RMA's are pretty easy, and they rarely employ the same component for its fully rated lifespan, upgrading before the eventual premature failure becomes appearent.

But
a latent defect, not only effects the lifespan, it degrades the performance of the IC as well, and is often the difference between the "Golden Chip" benchmark leader, the norm, and "why cant I get the same OC as this guy? Ive got the same components"

:p
 
I would expect rubber gloves to make it worse. Conduction is the best way to prevent static, not insulation.
 
Your welcome :)

It boils down to this, reasonable precautions will normally suffice
I practise only reasonable precautions when working on antiques
(today a Tyan Titian AT-2)
but I follow strict ESD Protocols when working on serious investments like my Tyan K8W w\ 4GB ECC and Dual Opterons.

Its really important that your aware of the relative humidity
it can make a huge difference as illustrated above

If your looking for a massive overclock, or the full lifespan of a component,
take the full precautions,
everyone that says they have never fried anything,
cant definitively say they have never degraded anything. ;)

Id use the strap and a pad, but not the gloves
let me dig up a thread addressing insulators
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=711257&perpage=15&pagenumber=2
last post on that page where Magic H8 Ball
hands me my hat, with my head still in it :p
 
I work for a tier 2 PC manufacturer where it seems that the ESD precautions can never be enough. Each person who walks on the manufacturing floor MUST wear an ESD heel strap, which touches the floor, which is painted using ESD paint. The pads which people stand on are also ESD safe and connected to a grounding source. Their straps and pads are tested daily. The manufacturing employees are tested on a machine that looks like bathroom scales, where they stand on it and touch the top. If it beeps they're good.

In the engineering lab, things are different. The engineers, who support the manufacturing floor, usually wear their straps, because it beats putting it on each time they're needed on the floor. The rest of us ground ourselves on whatever it is we're working on at the time.
 
here in the caribbean thanks to the humidity/moisture in the air the chances of us frying any sort of pcb by esd by your bare hands are slim to none.
 
Nice read Ice Czar. Although all those steps seem a bit far fetched for the common pc builder. For businesses its a must. But for a home user buying all that equipment just to build a PC would be a hassle. Wrist straps are pretty cheap though and if you use one of those thats properly grounded whats the point in the floor mats and humidifiers and what not?

The majority of people never use anything but i can see how alot of computer failures can be linked back to ESD. The actual percentage would be hard to calculate. ESD is definately real and affects alot of hardware components but what exactly is enough precausion and whats too much?
 
*you're

Originally posted by Ice Czar
Your welcome :)

It boils down to this, reasonable precautions will normally suffice
I practise only reasonable precautions when working on antiques
(today a Tyan Titian AT-2)
but I follow strict ESD Protocols when working on serious investments like my Tyan K8W w\ 4GB ECC and Dual Opterons.

Its really important that your aware of the relative humidity
it can make a huge difference as illustrated above

If your looking for a massive overclock, or the full lifespan of a component,
take the full precautions,
everyone that says they have never fried anything,
cant definitively say they have never degraded anything. ;)

Id use the strap and a pad, but not the gloves
let me dig up a thread addressing insulators
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=711257&perpage=15&pagenumber=2
last post on that page where Magic H8 Ball
hands me my hat, with my head still in it :p
Click to expand...
 
When i used to work for the other evil empire (sony) They had anyone touching equipment to wear a heel ground strap.

The biggest thing at sony though wasnt ESD, it was to make sure we took care of solder.

Not a bad company, and they make some decent products.
 
Originally posted by Notquiteanewbie
Wasn't quiet sure where to post this, but I was wondering if anyone uses rubber gloves while working on their system. ...
Click to expand...

Never. It just doesn't feel as good.
 
Originally posted by burningrave101
whats the point in the floor mats and humidifiers and what not?
Click to expand...

I'd argee on the floor mats, but dont shuffle on carpet, the mat\pad I was refering to was a benchtop job, and in addition to grounding the component makes a nice cushion for HDDs which can be important

a Humidifier on the other hand can make a huge difference in a dry climate (Im on a high desert plateau ) especially when you use alot of Air Conditioning which dessicates the air, or in Winter when home heating does the same thing
and firing it up doesnt take alot of effort ;)


Originally posted by Whatsisname
*you're
Click to expand...

ack the spelling Nazi :eek:

Miss Smith is that you?
(my 4st grade English teacher) :p
 
I've been fiddling with computers since I was 6 or so, and the one thing I was taught is to touch the bare metal of the case before handling any component. The static build up on you or your clothing will discharge into the case and you are good to go.

Just be sure to do it every time. Never had a problem with static killing anything. If a little kid can do it for 14 years, it's all good.
 
Originally posted by Ice Czar
.....
(my 4st grade English teacher) :p
Click to expand...


4st eh? damn that must be like 29rd that i put into the credits for a news broadcast last week ooooops. ;)
 
Originally posted by CSx-2011
I've been fiddling with computers since I was 6 or so, and the one thing I was taught is to touch the bare metal of the case before handling any component. The static build up on you or your clothing will discharge into the case and you are good to go.

Just be sure to do it every time. Never had a problem with static killing anything. If a little kid can do it for 14 years, it's all good.
Click to expand...

I guess this is why I have never had a problem with static, its always been a habit for 10+ years to just touch the chassis before diving into the computer.
 
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