Roach's 8bit LCD Jihad

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R0achTheWarHero

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
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This is a condemnation of companies trying to spin 2005 stagnant technology as new and improved in the year 2007:

PVA/MVA = no progress in input lag issues, they are still 22-45ms, most right around 30ms, little or no progress in pixel response, they write on the box 6ms but it's really the same 8ms response time as the panel they sold last year, 8ms grey to grey which usually means 16ms bwb in reality. Black crush effect still there unless you use washed out 1.8 gamma.

IPS = no progress in input lag issues, still 16-32ms like always, no progress in pixel response, still the same as it was 1-2 years ago, contrast was mediocre on IPS panels in the past and hasn't changed, people reporting actual contrast ratios of 400's on the new planar 26inch isn't very encouraging either.

TN = The Only panel type to have any real evolution whatsoever in the last 2 years. They literally went from absolute crap to decent. Many 3rd world brands are still crap though. Input lag improved to single digits, pixel response at 2ms in 22inch panels. 3ms gtg 5ms bwb in 28inch panels. Contrast evolved from horrible to 932:1 measured on 226bw S panel.


Where is the 8bit evolution? It's like they are rebadging the same old surplus stock from 2 years ago. You're buying the same panel from 2005. Wide gamut is nice but thats even available for TN panels.

Let the whining begin
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well the Planar was tested by Toasty as having about half a frame of lag.. Unfortnately I think his was also defective with bad backlight bleed.. Unfortunately that's something that all LCDs seem to randomly have. Too bad there was nobody else that had the Planar with the tools or knowhow to run the same tests on their monitors.. Would be nice to see what the contrast ratios were on the ones without the backlight bleed problem. And the normal response time for the Planar is 12ms with 5ms GTG.. That's better than IPS panels before. I am hoping Toasty gets his Planar replaced and gets an more representitive contrast reading.

Of course TN had nowhere to go but up. It started out with crap everything but price. :D
 
As I said in the other thread, if you think LCDs are so bad then don't buy them. You seem to be a big fan of TN technology so enjoy yourself. I agree that progress has been lacking in the last 2-3 years but HDTV seems to be a bigger market for panel manufacturers now. Companies are focusing on pushing the HD revolution before they push for another step up in computer panel tech.
 
Instead of placing all the blame on panel makers....why not the great unwashed (and uninformed) public who snap up 22" TN panels like jelly donuts? What I mean is that people are instantly awed by the fact that they can get a bigger monitor for the same or less than some smaller models and it never occurs to them that there is such a thing as TN, MVA, IPS etc.....they are just lcd's and bigger is better. I'm sure you're aware that TN's are easier and less expensive to produce than the other technologies....and if sales figures are high with their cheap TN's then why should they try to be price competitive with something that will give them a smaller profit margin? Until the general buying public (your average BB, CC, Fry's etc.. customer) is made aware of the different technologies and vote with their pocketbooks...there is no reason to spend tons of money for innovation.
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
This is a condemnation of companies trying to spin 2005 stagnant technology as new and improved in the year 2007:

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Let the whining begin
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The abive is edited for accuracy.

Roach, just get a CRT. LCDs do have shortcomings which while there may be advances some can never be overcome fully due to the way the technology inherently works such as 'true blacks.' Until SED or the likes comes along which is more similar to the way CRT works there won't be a 'perfect' LCD.

And joemama is right. Companies are about profit first, and innovation comes if there is profit to be made. TNs have steadily crept up into larger and larger panel sizes over the last few years, and they have advanced in many ways - starting from crap as Uriel said there's not much else for them to do :p - but the sad fact is it's possible TN could displace the superior panel types in the majority of consumer-grade panels. I really hope they don't though :( or at least not until the next tech is reasonably priced. Also isn't it possible that the other techs already had the focus of innovation when they were larger parts of the market and therefore there wasn't as much possible to do with them?
 
Madman0 said:
The abive is edited for accuracy.

Roach, just get a CRT. LCDs do have shortcomings which while there may be advances some can never be overcome fully due to the way the technology inherently works such as 'true blacks.' Until SED or the likes comes along which is more similar to the way CRT works there won't be a 'perfect' LCD.

And joemama is right. Companies are about profit first, and innovation comes if there is profit to be made. TNs have steadily crept up into larger and larger panel sizes over the last few years, and they have advanced in many ways - starting from crap as Uriel said there's not much else for them to do :p - but the sad fact is it's possible TN could displace the superior panel types in the majority of consumer-grade panels. I really hope they don't though :( or at least not until the next tech is reasonably priced. Also isn't it possible that the other techs already had the focus of innovation when they were larger parts of the market and therefore there wasn't as much possible to do with them?
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Nice One. Hey Roach WTF man? Can't you find a more productive way to waste your time?
 
Madman0 said:
but the sad fact is it's possible TN could displace the superior panel types in the majority of consumer-grade panels.
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Yeah, this doesn't make me happy. How are these shitty monitors considered acceptable? Even the best ones like the Samsung 226BW S panels look like garbage to me. If they could combine the viewing angle, color, and contrast ratio of S-IPS panels with the responsiveness of TN panels then I'd be happy.
 
Because the average schmoe gets one LCD with their computer from a big-box retailer based overwhelmingly on one thing - price. Now to be honest this is fine by me because many of them spend maybe an hour a day on their computer if that. But then they keep that LCD for a long time and never know any better. I wouldn't care honestly but it hit me when I saw 24" TN panels :( it's nice to give more options and product range for varying consumer tastes and needs but it blows when it drives superior technology into the niches of 'professional.' At least we have Dell somewhat on our side, while they do have a number of TNs they also have many PVA and a few IPS.
 
Why not buy a 22inch TN for text and games, and a HDTV for video/games.
That's my plan of sorts.......there's no way I can accept DVD/HDTV playback on TN{unless they've improved out of sight}.
 
Madman0 said:
I wouldn't care honestly but it hit me when I saw 24" TN panels :( it's nice to give more options and product range for varying consumer tastes and needs but it blows when it drives superior technology into the niches of 'professional.
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24" and larger TN panels don't exist solely because of the price. Samsung is not a little 3rd world country panel maker that prides itself on making panels as cheap as possible. They want the word quality to be associated with their brand name just like with other expensive electronics companies like Sony TV's.

They didn't introduce a 24inch TN panel to try and make more money, they introduced it because VA technology has even more negative aspects to it than TN panels.
 
Dogmapog said:
there's no way I can accept DVD/HDTV playback on TN{unless they've improved out of sight}.
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Movies look the same on most computer monitor IPS and TN panels now only difference is viewing angles. VA computer panels look worse to me personally due to the black crush effect that hides all dark details unless you use the monitor default 1.8 gamma which makes everything washed out.

There are Sony 1080p S-PVA LCD TV's and a few other brands that do look great but they use additional image enhancing technology on those that aren't used on PC monitors. Some of them would probably cause 100ms input lag if they did. Also brighter backlights that help the picture but not comftorable to sit next to and read text on.
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
Movies look the same on most computer monitor IPS and TN panels now only difference is viewing angles.
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I disagree. I notice color inaccuracies on every TN panel I've viewed. The color in people's faces does not look right. Depending on the scene lighting, people's faces are often too pinkish or too yellow. Light bloom effects are noticeably inaccurate. Black detail is especially lacking. Dark gradients do not have smooth transitions.
 
If dithering is so good now it would be nice to see some *VA and IPS panels that use 6 bit + dithering to keep the cost down.

That said, dithering = blocky gradients :/

Also, you can't say there has been no progress now that the first panels that use an A-MVA panel have appeared now (only 24" though :( )


I also think that input lag and response time are way overstated these days as issues, I could not tell the input lag on my 2007WFP when I was running clone with my CRT. That said I have not tested for input lag on any other monitor (I am an avid gamer so if it was bad I would notice). Ditto response times, an 8ms *VA or IPS panel is just as good as a 5ms TN, they are all excellent (although I have not carefully inspected an MVA, the 40" S-PVA TV I have used for xbox had no perceptible ghosting).


EDIT: For clarity.
 
Scyles said:
I disagree. I notice color inaccuracies on every TN panel I've viewed. The color in people's faces does not look right. Depending on the scene lighting, people's faces are often too pinkish or too yellow. Light bloom effects are noticeably inaccurate. Black detail is especially lacking. Dark gradients do not have smooth transitions.
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I notice color inaccuracies on every LCD no matter what panel type it is unless in the panel OSD it has 3 RGB sliders plus a kelvin preset that can be used together at the same time. Using those plus a spyder2pro (not express it sucks, not enough custom ability) you can make any panel look decent in color so that debate is relatively pointless.

If you are complaining about dark detail lacking you have obviously never owned a VA panel because the black crush effect makes all black detail invisible unless the panel is set to 1.8 gamma which makes all the colors washed out.
 
Destroid said:
I also think that input lag and response time are way overstated these days as issues, I could not tell the input lag on my 2007WFP when I was running clone with my CRT. That said I have not tested for input lag on any other monitor (I am an avid gamer so if it was bad I would notice).
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I use a 1600dpi mouse at 8.5 out of 10 sensitivity with mouse accel at lowest level and can tell the difference in 13ms input lag and 22ms input lag easily, it's like a night and day difference because once you get down to single digits the input lag becomes much less noticeable.
 
I also use a 1600 dpi mouse, but seriously, if you cant see it in clone mode, whats it worth worrying about? are you seriously going to tell me you can notice a 9ms difference in any actual application? Gaming? Movies? You do realize that 9ms is less than 1/100th of a second? Seriously, we are getting into Monster cable levels of rediculous here.
 
By my understanding you can make a panel however many bits you like - it is a factor distinct from the type of panel used. (it being the number of different states that each sub pixel can have - loss states = faster response and cheaper).
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
Movies look the same on most computer monitor IPS and TN panels now only difference is viewing angles. VA computer panels look worse to me personally due to the black crush effect that hides all dark details unless you use the monitor default 1.8 gamma which makes everything washed out.
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Nahh, I'm gonna have a hard time accepting that, and I think it's all down to TN's being 6 bit.
I took video samples of 576p, 720p and 1080i and played them on a 19in 2006 Benq TN panel, and compared to my 19inch CRT, they were very ordinary, especially when the whole point of DVD/HDTV is superior PQ+sound.

I've seen Samsung, Sony and Panasonic 26in LCD HDTV's and the PQ was always excellent, so I suspect that good quality 8bit 24's and 27's will look just as good.

I think the Sony and Samsung use the same panel type, but Pana is IPS of some sort, but they all have decent horizontal viewing angles.
As I've said before, I don't have a big problem with the way the TN's handle text and games, but photo's and HQ video are ok-ordinary.

Sony have just released a 32 inch LCD HDTV without a HDTV tuner....so it might sell for $1300AUD{DELL 2707 ranges from $1400-$1800AUD}....it would have to receive some shocking reviews for me not to buy it with my next PC.
 
Destroid said:
By my understanding you can make a panel however many bits you like - it is a factor distinct from the type of panel used. (it being the number of different states that each sub pixel can have - loss states = faster response and cheaper).
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While that may be true...why would it be a good thing for IPS and VA to drop down to 6bit and use dithering to achieve 16.7m colors? How is that not a step backwards..
 
Joemama, now you know the answer to that question.:D

Anyone that deals with graphics knows that dithering is not the best solution. 8 bit covers sRGB and to cover a wider color spaces accurately requires more bits. Anything below 8 is a sacrifice. Lets put the numbers to this.

6 bit = 262 thousand
8 bit = 16.7 million /sRGB
10 bit = 1 billion
16 bit = 280 trillion

When you look at the numbers you see what a wide chasm 262 thousand is to 16.7 million much less 1 billion. Dithering simply cannot accurately or aesthetic spackle over that range of missing colors.

But let's assume we that we understand the quality loss, how would crippling a better panel make the unit cheaper? Its the parts the drive the price. Trust me, if this made any sense, someone would fill the need. This thread makes absolutely no sense.
 
Dogmapog said:
I took video samples of 576p, 720p and 1080i and played them on a 19in 2006 Benq TN panel, and compared to my 19inch CRT, they were very ordinary, especially when the whole point of DVD/HDTV is superior PQ+sound.
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No offense but a 19inch BenQ TN panel is a piece of crap. We didn't start seeing good TN panels until the 226bw S panel, even the 225bw sucked. You have to compare using the newest TN panels.
 
Destroid said:
I also use a 1600 dpi mouse, but seriously, if you cant see it in clone mode, whats it worth worrying about? are you seriously going to tell me you can notice a 9ms difference in any actual application? Gaming? Movies? You do realize that 9ms is less than 1/100th of a second? Seriously, we are getting into Monster cable levels of rediculous here.
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Clone mode is a horrible way to test it. Have a crt hooked up to it's own computer and a 22-32ms input lag lcd hooked up to it's own computer. After moving around the LCD mouse for a while get on the CRT mouse and it feels like the CRT mouse cursor is moving before your actual input goes through the mouse because you are so used to the mouse lag. It's hard to get re-used to that level of responsiveness after dealing with 30ms input lag and feels very weird.

Unless you use low sensitivity and slow mouse cursor with no acceleration then everything probably feels the same ....
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
No offense but a 19inch BenQ TN panel is a piece of crap. We didn't start seeing good TN panels until the 226bw S panel, even the 225bw sucked. You have to compare using the newest TN panels.
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I tend to agree that the Benq is crap[but okay for office use}.....my problem is that the latest Samsung/LG have MASSIVE contrast ratio's for their screen sizes, yet people still rubbish them.

It seems to me that no matter what you do to a 6bit panel, they'll always struggle against a top tier 8bit.

My future holds a 27inch Dell and a 32 inch Sony HDTV....between those two, I should be covered for all my PC activities.
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
We didn't start seeing good TN panels until the 226bw S panel, even the 225bw sucked. You have to compare using the newest TN panels.
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The 226bw S panel is one panel that you have like a 1 out of 3 chance of even getting. Do any other monitors even use it yet? All of your TN praise is based on this single monitor that may or may not be shit?
 
I think it's funny how people argue about lcds b/c cathode ray technology had a long time to develop. If I had a 5 million square foot house I could maybe setup a few 24 or 21 inch crts which converge the colors instead of lcds which are a mosaic. Too bad my room is very small and my desk to smallish for a honkin crt. Imo manuf. should publish panel type with monitor specs.

e: this is the same damn problem with emulsion photography compared to ccd.
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
3rd world country panel maker.
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You said this a couple times and I find it very humorous. Suffice to say it is wrong and you'll have to make up other reasons to why Samsung TN is the best.

R0achTheWarHero said:
They didn't introduce a 24inch TN panel to try and make more money, they introduced it because VA technology has even more negative aspects to it than TN panels.
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I think even Samsung would laugh at you on this one. If they truly believed TN is better than VA they would've priced it quite high. Oh wait, they're not trying to make more money. Sorry, forgot.
 
I was lamenting this the other day - but my issue was with resolution, or the lack thereof. We have been stuck at 2560x1600 forever it seems (24 - 30 months or so).

IIRC, this resolution was first introduced on the Apple 30 inch cinema display in 2004 and its not been exceed since, at least in commonly available / non medical /consumer panels.
 
Bacillus said:
I was lamenting this the other day - but my issue was with resolution, or the lack thereof. We have been stuck at 2560x1600 forever it seems (24 - 30 months or so).

IIRC, this resolution was first introduced on the Apple 30 inch cinema display in 2004 and its not been exceed since, at least in commonly available / non medical /consumer panels.
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I doubt we will see any increases in the consumer market again until a few generations of DX10 video cards are out and are powerful enough to run decently at the new resolution.. Plus the fact that even dual-link DVI has it's limits.. They would have to come out with a new superfast connector. And on top of that they would need a new generation of internal electronics that were much faster to combat even higher input lag problems.
 
Probably because you would need even larger displays to make use of a higher res., and even more powerful GPUs to make them playable, plus at some point it turns from a desktop display into something else entirely (it's not terribly comfortable to use some of the bigger displays for every-day use in a normal desk environment imo).
 
YET ANOTHER USELESS THREAD FROM ROACH< GIVE IT UP, go and get a CRT and stop posting all of your nonsense roach, smoke another one if you must but stop playing with the computer until you come down off your high please.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Bacillus said:
I was lamenting this the other day - but my issue was with resolution, or the lack thereof. We have been stuck at 2560x1600 forever it seems (24 - 30 months or so).

IIRC, this resolution was first introduced on the Apple 30 inch cinema display in 2004 and its not been exceed since, at least in commonly available / non medical /consumer panels.
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23inch 3840x2400 viewsonic!
http://www.engadget.com/2004/07/06/viewsonics-23-inch-vp2290b-lcd-puts-even-those-new-apple/
 
joemama said:
While that may be true...why would it be a good thing for IPS and VA to drop down to 6bit and use dithering to achieve 16.7m colors? How is that not a step backwards..
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I would rather have 6 bit IPS than 6 bit TN.
 
joemama said:
Instead of placing all the blame on panel makers....why not the great unwashed (and uninformed) public...
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It's not just the public. Reviewers rarely list the panel type. Manufacturers do not routinely include this information in their spec sheets. There's shouldn't be such things as "panel lotteries" because the panel type should be a concrete and important aspect of the specs.

I went to a computer store and asked to see an S-IPS display. The salesman was cluesless. He disappeared to confer with his associates before coming back and telling me they had no idea what I was talking about. It's not just the general public, but the "experts" in the industry that seem to think there exists only one panel type that is used in all LCD monitors.
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
24" and larger TN panels don't exist solely because of the price. Samsung is not a little 3rd world country panel maker that prides itself on making panels as cheap as possible. They want the word quality to be associated with their brand name just like with other expensive electronics companies like Sony TV's.

They didn't introduce a 24inch TN panel to try and make more money, they introduced it because VA technology has even more negative aspects to it than TN panels.
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Obviously Roach has never been to Korea, Samsung is a Korean company so yes it is a third world country panel maker lol. That is not to say however that samsung doesnt have good panels and samsungs TN panels are generally alot punchier with the colors than the TN panels of other panel manufacturers but at the end of the day a TN panels is still just a TN panel.
No samsung didnt introduce TN panels because of more negative aspects to them, TN panels have more negative aspects to them than PMVA panels especially with regard to viewing angles.
We know you like your what fourth of fifth 24 inch lcd in about a month now........your samsung 245 but it is not a better panel in any way to the LG246 you returned it for. I know, I have experience with both panels.
 
Relentence said:
It's not just the public. Reviewers rarely list the panel type. Manufacturers do not routinely include this information in their spec sheets. There's shouldn't be such things as "panel lotteries" because the panel type should be a concrete and important aspect of the specs.

I went to a computer store and asked to see an S-IPS display. The salesman was cluesless. He disappeared to confer with his associates before coming back and telling me they had no idea what I was talking about. It's not just the general public, but the "experts" in the industry that seem to think there exists only one panel type that is used in all LCD monitors.
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LOL I would hardly call sales associates in a computer store "experts", they never know more than the savy forum browsers like us and they certainly dont do the research we do on their products.......thank god for forums.
 
the dolts at the stores know nothing. i returned a hp w2207 for nasty nasty backlight bleed to FS and when i told her why i was returning it she asks "whats backlight bleed?"
 
conghelach said:
LOL I would hardly call sales associates in a computer store "experts".
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"Experts" was used not only to describe the computer store sales guys, but also magazine and web site reviewers. I see tons of sites that review monitors without discussing panel type. The only reliable place to find out that information is generally in these forums.
 
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