Rivals Scramble after Apple unveils iPad 2

operaman said:
And how many tablets have been sold relative to the iPad which is the point of this discussion? Like I thought, you got a bag of nothing but PC/IT Haterade. Wake me up when MS or Android or whoever does something significant for the post PC consumer market...
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circular argument.

I responded directly to your quote that Apple = consumers and MS = IT and that Apple is for "most of the civilized world," Market share shows just how stupid your "fact" was and that the vast majority of the civilized, uncivilized, and every other part of the world doesn't care about Apple.

If you want an argument for android:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/991...oogle-android-market-share-microsoft-palm.htm

Given how quickly android toppled Apple in the smartphone market, it is safe to assume that give a small amount of time for Android tablets to do the same. Apple is great at coming up with a new product, getting people to buy it at exorbitant profit to the company, then falling to irrelevance in that market once competition starts (ipod is the obvious exception to this, but every thing else they have released holds true to this).
 
Fair enough. My IT remark is more formulated to the elitists on this forum who look down on those who simply are not as technically savvy as they are.

I understand this, and to a certain extent there is a place for hacking, modding, etc. However, for me my Apple products are my communication devices and I want simplicity and for them to work.

The Android argument is the same argument Linux has been making for well over a decade now. The problem with the entire business model is that is open source. I say this because with open source there is no uniformity it is hard to have tech support and normal users want and need tech support. It is a business model doomed to failure the second a particular vulnerability, exploit, or program fault occurs, because there is no real tech support to analyze and deal with the problem in a uniform manner across multiple platforms. This is simply the way it is. Microsoft covers multiple platforms but charges for their OS, and also for their services. There is truly no such thing as a free lunch in less you are a particularly tech savvy person.

The iPad from a pure specs standpoint is not the best on the market. However, between its elegant design, software/hardware integration, and ease of use, it is a no brainer as a consumer product. I love mine, and will continue to use mine for years to come.
 
Just saw the comparison. They title to the post should have been this:
SO... the Xoom really does blow the ipad2 away. Good job Motorola! (As Apple's 512MB memory limited device scrambles to keep up with the competition units that are already available
 
operaman said:
I love mine, and will continue to use mine for years to come.
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Or until Apple drops support for it, which will be interesting how that will work when Apple does more than a minor upgrade to the iPad like this time. You talk about uniformity but that's already out the door in the iPad world as now there are two different models. Obviously camera apps will be a no go on the iPad 1.
 
Jeremy C said:
circular argument.

I responded directly to your quote that Apple = consumers and MS = IT and that Apple is for "most of the civilized world," Market share shows just how stupid your "fact" was and that the vast majority of the civilized, uncivilized, and every other part of the world doesn't care about Apple.

If you want an argument for android:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/991...oogle-android-market-share-microsoft-palm.htm

Given how quickly android toppled Apple in the smartphone market, it is safe to assume that give a small amount of time for Android tablets to do the same. Apple is great at coming up with a new product, getting people to buy it at exorbitant profit to the company, then falling to irrelevance in that market once competition starts (ipod is the obvious exception to this, but every thing else they have released holds true to this).
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Let's also see what happens once the iphone is on all major networks. The reality is Android programs are not nearly as prevalent as Apples. Period. 65000 apps versus under 100. Plus brand recognition. Tell me, if you are developer today, do you want to deal with a market where the basis of your work OS-wise is an open source (i.e. free) product? I think not. People are into programming programs to make money. There are no free lunches. The reality is with over 200 million registered credit card users on the iTunes/App Store, Apple has a huge lead in application support.

PC's only win in the consumer market because the reality is they are used in business which most people work at and are forced to use, and the cost of entry for Apple is significantly higher than for a base model PC. We can get into the you get what you pay for argument another time.

However, the point is in the consumer electronics market which is a different animal, Apple has a huge lead, and they are not likely to relinquish it anytime soon. They are too far ahead. And again there is no free lunch. The best programs are not free or at least should not be, but that is also a discussion for another time.
 
heatlesssun said:
Or until Apple drops support for it, which will be interesting how that will work when Apple does more than a minor upgrade to the iPad like this time. You talk about uniformity but that's already out the door in the iPad world as now there are two different models. Obviously camera apps will be a no go on the iPad 1.
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No different than gamers and video cards. You drop 400-500 for that top of the line Video card and 6 months later Nvidia and ATI blow it away with the latest card. Absolutely no different as far as I am concerned. And there are guys on here who drop a cool 1k+ for a dual or tri SLI setup so I think the iPad is probably a drop in the bucket, and at least you get a year out of it before it is obsolete.
 
RamonGTP said:
On paper, the iPad is behind. In practical use, it's better than any other android based tablet i've used. The OS is more stable and FAR smoother as are the apps. The Motorola Xoom with all it's fancy hardware specs has a user and touch interface that is clunkier than the original iPad. All the while, the "overpriced" Apple piece is cheaper. IOS makes much better use of the hardware it has, period. My one complaint about the iPad is the lack of support for Flash. They really need to get off their high horse and give their customers the option by doing something as simple as implementing a "click 2 flash" application.
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Of course it's going to be more stable when the functionality of the iOS operating system is limited to the most rudimentary level. Heck, it still lacks multitasking. Why has Apple resisted adding true multitasking capability to the iPhone or the iPad, which is marketed as a notebook replacement? Is it because if they allow users to run several apps at a time the devices will not feel nearly as smooth and stable as they do now?
 
It is not marketed as a notebook replacement. It is marketed as a netbook replacement. A god one at that. Netbooks are ugly, unintuitive, and suck. They do nothing well. Period. By the time you get to a decently designed one, you are in a full blown very nice notebook territory which is not the point to begin with. I owned an Asus EEEPC for what it is worth. Totally worthless compared to an iPad.

I use Youtube, Email, Internet, eBooks, light gaming, music listening, and video watching. Pray tell, when will I need some super intensive cpu strength for the above? If you are doing autocad or heavy encoding on this level of product you are either a masochist or a complete moron. Accept the iPad for what it is: A great consumer device with a superb user interface. It has a fabulous screen, and tightly integrated programs.

Newsflash: Not everyone is trying to root their new subcompact netbook and go around the neighborhood war driving. Some of us just want to check email, and do basic tasks. I know that may seem mundane to you, but it suites me and seemingly another 15 million + users pretty darn well...
 
operaman said:
No different than gamers and video cards. You drop 400-500 for that top of the line Video card and 6 months later Nvidia and ATI blow it away with the latest card. Absolutely no different as far as I am concerned. And there are guys on here who drop a cool 1k+ for a dual or tri SLI setup so I think the iPad is probably a drop in the bucket, and at least you get a year out of it before it is obsolete.
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Never said that it was different, I've bought plenty of SLI setups I know. You were saying that there was uniformity with iDevices that really doesn't exist at least after a year.
 
Competitors to the iPad need to understand that pricing your product above the iPad means your tablet is DOA, they should at least offer a 499$ version of their tablets to even compete.

Also iPad 1 is now 350$ as long as they make them.
 
badb0y said:
Competitors to the iPad need to understand that pricing your product above the iPad means your tablet is DOA, they should at least offer a 499$ version of their tablets to even compete.

Also iPad 1 is now 350$ as long as they make them.
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As a mass consumer entertainment device, sure matching iPad pricing is important. But that is a very basic and limited device, small storage, no 3G and limited interface options.
 
RamonGTP said:
On paper, the iPad is behind. In practical use, it's better than any other android based tablet i've used. The OS is more stable and FAR smoother as are the apps. The Motorola Xoom with all it's fancy hardware specs has a user and touch interface that is clunkier than the original iPad. All the while, the "overpriced" Apple piece is cheaper. IOS makes much better use of the hardware it has, period. My one complaint about the iPad is the lack of support for Flash. They really need to get off their high horse and give their customers the option by doing something as simple as implementing a "click 2 flash" application.
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Good post. People claiming iPad is so terrible remind of those saying the iPhone was so terrible after the Galaxy S series came out. They were all able to entirely ignore major issues such as lack of stability and a working GPS on the Samsung device while hating on the iPhone.

Honestly, I think the Xoom could be really good, but the absolute lack of apps just kills it. Upscaled phone apps are terrible on iPad too. That's why Apple had huge developer support with their SDK and emulator out before launch so there were apps actually available at launch. A year later and there's tons. These devices are ultimately about software.

However, I think Android will advance quickly in this department, especially if more devices are released and sell in numbers. Hopefully in a year there will be enough stable apps out for the platform to be worthwhile.
 
heatlesssun said:
As a mass consumer entertainment device, sure matching iPad pricing is important. But that is a very basic and limited device, small storage, no 3G and limited interface options.
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For a large number of people, it is entirely fine though. Wifi is abundant and storage beyond 16GB is needed for many people. So yea, being able to compete at Apple's price point is important. $800 is ridiculous when there's a $500 device that can do nearly everything many people need.
 
k4m4z said:
Of course it's going to be more stable when the functionality of the iOS operating system is limited to the most rudimentary level. Heck, it still lacks multitasking. Why has Apple resisted adding true multitasking capability to the iPhone or the iPad, which is marketed as a notebook replacement? Is it because if they allow users to run several apps at a time the devices will not feel nearly as smooth and stable as they do now?
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Keep in mind who Apple is making this for. We here on the forum may be able to figure out for ourselves how to make a Win7 boot disk using Windows AIK, but the vast majority of people - not IT, not even PC users, but people - are uncomfortable with the mouse-keyboard interface, and the whole idea of multitasking would be lost on them.

I saw early in the thread the phrase "dumbed-down interface". Which is dumber - an interface that is so feature-filled and complicated that only an IT tech can use more than 1 percent of it, or an interface that every single one of your relatives at the Christmas party can not only use but enjoy using without having to ask you how to do anything?
 
evilsofa said:
Keep in mind who Apple is making this for. We here on the forum may be able to figure out for ourselves how to make a Win7 boot disk using Windows AIK, but the vast majority of people - not IT, not even PC users, but people - are uncomfortable with the mouse-keyboard interface, and the whole idea of multitasking would be lost on them.

I saw early in the thread the phrase "dumbed-down interface". Which is dumber - an interface that is so feature-filled and complicated that only an IT tech can use more than 1 percent of it, or an interface that every single one of your relatives at the Christmas party can not only use but enjoy using without having to ask you how to do anything?
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This is my entire point. Thank you. Enjoy guys. I got a rehearsal tomorrow, and my new MBP gets here. Love the H and will be back to discuss stuff soon. You guys have a great day!
 
Lots of going back and forth here, it is a giant flaming Android / Apple fanboy fest.

Let me summarize some points here.

- Price, OFF contract the iPad is actually one of the least expensive tablets if you make having an Active display and a front facing video camera a requirement for comparison. The XOOMs WiFi is even crippled without a carrier contract unlike the iPad.

- Performance... because each OS performs differently iOS, WebOS, Android and QNX.. Claiming x amount of ram a victory is generally not the biggest performance factor. Developers optimise for a target... Look at the PS3 and XBOX 360, they has tiny amounts of ram yet developers milk it to make grate experiences.

- Rooting a nook does not get you a XOOM or iPad, it gives you an ereader that can run some more apps poorly. The eInk display is crap for anything media wise and the extra stuff kills the battery.

- Platforms and support.. Apple has supported each iPhone for 3 years with OS updates so far, bringing consistent APIs forward and building on previous hardware. As a developer you can target the oldest device you want and be nearly guaranteed that every newer device will run the app almost perfectly.. you can then selectively detect the platform and turn on some extra features for devices that have them.

- Keyboard... tablets are largely consumption devices not content creation devices, however you can use a bluetooth keyboard with an iPad or iPhone now.. Nearly all the new tablets do not have one, so why even bother complaining.. Just get a net-book or laptop.

These tablets are going to make video conferencing a reality for average people... It is so damn easy to skype or facetime on an iphone. My grandma is pre-ordering a 3G ipad3 so she can see the grandkids more often.. We tried setting up a laptop for here in the past but there where too many buttons to hit to get the PC turned on and answer a call..

We need competition, but the fact non of the new tablets are launching cheaper than the iPad this year is disappointing.. Really everyone always says apple is too expensive.. So where is the capacitive touch, front facing video, 10hr + battery alternative that costs less and is easy enough for grandma to use?
 
Nobody is talking about rooting a standard nook, we're talking about the Nook Color. If there were more basic tablets in the 7" range, I wouldn't have to think about rooting one.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
Lazybones said:
- Rooting a nook does not get you a XOOM or iPad, it gives you an ereader that can run some more apps poorly. The eInk display is crap for anything media wise and the extra stuff kills the battery.
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we're talking about the Nook Color here. It's a full android tablet with an IPS panel.
 
Should start to see some good deals come up on the first gen Ipad.
 
obs said:
For a large number of people, it is entirely fine though. Wifi is abundant and storage beyond 16GB is needed for many people. So yea, being able to compete at Apple's price point is important. $800 is ridiculous when there's a $500 device that can do nearly everything many people need.
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And this is fine, but the $500 is a lowest common denominator device. Many people swear by Macbooks even though they carry higher price tags than commodity Windows laptops because of build quality, battery life, etc. I love my EP121, $1100 price tag but it does things than iPads probably aren't ever going to do. The idea that slates are a one size fits all thing is false. Different people, different needs and $1100 might be a high price but like the Macbook it really isn't. If you compare an EP121 to a 64 GB iPad then add in the case, pen, and keyboard you're looking at about a $200 price difference and the EP121 is a TRUE laptop.

For the $500 iPad is a great device, probably suits most peoples' needs that are looking for a slate but it's far from taking care of everyone's needs and discounting higher priced devices is like discounting higher prices Macbooks compared to cheaper Windows laptops. Some people, a lot of people, want more and are more than willing and ready to pay for devices with superior capabilities and features to the iPad.
 
Monkey34 said:
Should start to see some good deals come up on the first gen Ipad.
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that's the bottom line here. for the tablet market in general to pick up, we need better options at lower price points. $200-$300 is a good price for the last gen single core 1ghz ipad/tablets, and $400-$500 is a good price for the next gen dual core tablets. Once I can buy something similar to the Xoom for $400 I'm probably in for one.
 
operaman said:
Really? And pray tell which tablet is better? Just curious.

Seriously dude, get over it. I bought the Macbook Pro too for a huge price. Tell me when a Windows machine with a 2820QM gets over 7 hours of battery life and a decent screen while you are at it.

People that waste time rooting a system to jack around or whatever instead of doing real work are getting shafted a lot worse than I am trust me...
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I look at the ipad and see a computing device halfway between a smart phone and a net book. It's only natural that I would expect it to cost somewhere in between the two. Instead it costs considerably more than either, as much as a decent mid range laptop in fact. But go on continue your defense, I will will continue to find humor in it. Get over that as well.
 
k4m4z said:
Of course it's going to be more stable when the functionality of the iOS operating system is limited to the most rudimentary level. Heck, it still lacks multitasking. Why has Apple resisted adding true multitasking capability to the iPhone or the iPad, which is marketed as a notebook replacement? Is it because if they allow users to run several apps at a time the devices will not feel nearly as smooth and stable as they do now?
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I don't think anyone here is claiming the iPad or any tablet for that matter to be a laptop replacement. I know Apple and Steve Jobs would like people to believe it's "better than a laptop" but I certainly don't agree with that.

That said, you can continue to make excuses as to "why" it runs better, but that's all it is. Excuses. Fact is, it does run better than tablets touting more powerful hardware and does so at a lower price point than anything comparable.

So in essence, the iPad runs better, is cheaper and has FAR more developer support then other tablets. If you have a problem with that there are plenty of tablets that you can buy that run like ass; comparatively, cost more and have shit developer support. It's your money.
 
RamonGTP said:
I don't think anyone here is claiming the iPad or any tablet for that matter to be a laptop replacement.
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Many Windows pure slates can easily be laptop replacements. Indeed for folks that don't need the power of a laptop the iPad is proving a great laptop substitute. I wouldn't say in this case replacement because the user apparently never needed a laptop's capabilites in first place.
 
heatlesssun said:
Many Windows pure slates can easily be laptop replacements. Indeed for folks that don't need the power of a laptop the iPad is proving a great laptop substitute. I wouldn't say in this case replacement because the user apparently never needed a laptop's capabilites in first place.
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They can come close but I still don't think they can be laptop replacements, at least not for everyone. The Asus Eee Slate is the closest thing to a laptop you can get, but if I need to go trouble shoot a network, it's easier for me to wire into the network with my laptop versus carrying arond the slate and a seperate keyboard. Then there is the 3-4 hour battery life vs 7 on my laptop.
 
operaman said:
And there is the rub. You are .1% of the population. Programming is BORING. Hacking is BORING. Overclocking for a majority is a WASTE because it requires too much time and energy for most. This is REALITY. You market for consumers not IT guys.
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Take your own advice... quit preaching about "basic computing" to hardcore audience. You're on a hardcore computing hardware/siftware forum complaining that we don't get Apple's grandma friendly interface. :rolleyes:
 
I wish the ipad was able to do embedded videos. Considering Flash is on the majority of the sites I visit, I can't bring myself to purchase one. :-\
 
RamonGTP said:
They can come close but I still don't think they can be laptop replacements, at least not for everyone. The Asus Eee Slate is the closest thing to a laptop you can get, but if I need to go trouble shoot a network, it's easier for me to wire into the network with my laptop versus carrying arond the slate and a seperate keyboard. Then there is the 3-4 hour battery life vs 7 on my laptop.
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There are got 2 USB ports on the EP121 so a wired network connection isn't a problem. Yes the battery life on the EP121 is on the low side but it's also weighs 2.5 lbs. There are other Windows pure slates that get much better battery life but are heavier and more expensive.

Specifically the EP121 is a very flexible device. Functionally it can do anything a laptop does and more and you can add external batteries and even upgrade the SSD though that voids the warranty. But if you don't need or want the flexibility then a conventional laptop or convertible Tablet PC would be a better choice.
 
I'm well aware of their capabilities and features. Like I said, for the tasks I described it could/would not replace a laptop as the laptop would be more convenient. Again, this is not really debatable as i'm talking about what would work better for myself.
 
Fair enough, I'm simply saying that functionally something like the EP121 does everything the average laptop does since it is a laptop functionally in a different form factor with two additional input devices with the touchscreen and digital pen. But sure some people will want an integrated keyboard and track pad and longer battery life.
 
They shouldn't be scrambling.. Somehow apple was supposed to ignore their update cycles and not improve their product. That idea seems more unreasonable than the idea that people can't figure out a fit for iPad after 15 million sold in 9 months. Tablets have been a product target for a hell of a lot longer than he last couple years. If someone on the "laptop" based tablet front could produce a 8+ hour battery-life and still maintain reasonable performance for $800 I'd own it. The ep121 is too expensive for the shit battery life.
 
I'd say we'll see what you're describing in the next year. Asus could have with another 8 to 10 onces of battery weight could have hit 8 hours of battery life in the EP121 but that would have put it over 3 lbs. Either an SB or AMD Fusion based Windows 7 unit at about the same weight of the EP121 could come close. The thing about the EP121 is that it is a BIG step forward in price and performance for pure Windows slates though Asus did sacfrice battery to do it.

The truth of the matter is that not onlt did Microsoft drop the ball on slates but so did Intel, they are no scrambling to get better power efficiency and AMD has a very intresting product in Fusion that needs to make it's way into x86 tablet designs sooner rather than later.
 
from where I live, I just see people buying the IPAD because of novelty rather than necessity, like buying a BMW instead of a toyota,lol, i really dont care about it, but really, people flashing this things like jewelry from Tiffany's makes me want to smack up one up their ... , they arent even doing anything, just flicking the main homepage back and forth, now that's annoying.
 
anonmoniker said:
Is that why PC's outsell the IPad like 30:1?
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PC makers sold about 350 million PCs in 2010, while Apple sold about 15 million iPads in 2010. That's 23:1, and they didn't start selling iPads until April.

iPad sales in 2011 are widely expected to be in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 million. You may want to check your assumptions about market shares at the door. This is the sort of thing that can yank the carpet out from under the feet of companies you thought were invulnerable.

Like Microsoft.
 
Asus should have outfitted the 121 with a ULV i3 processor instead of the i5. It would have performed every bit as well for the tasks people us a tablet for, would have cost less, and consumed less power.
 
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