They're using the excuse of 'National Security" for almost everything now. Absolute corruption. Edward Snowden might not be a whistleblower as the law is written by the elites protecting their interests but he's a fucking hero in my book.
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Report: NSA Mulls Snowden Amnesty
- Thread starter CommanderFrank
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They're using the excuse of 'National Security" for almost everything now. Absolute corruption. Edward Snowden might not be a whistleblower as the law is written by the elites protecting their interests but he's a fucking hero in my book.
The Japanese politicians like the US national secrecy model so much that they just passed their own Patriot Act. In their new Article 12, terrorism is partially defined as an activity that forces political and other principles or opinions on the state or other people.
Watch:"Japan enacts strict state secrets law despite public protests"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMxKOExzv3U
I guess with so much ongoing environmental destruction imposed upon Japan and the rest of the world by the 3/11/11 Fukushima Daichi Triple Meltdowns, Japan has much at stake in controlling the spread of information. It's probably getting very difficult for them to keep track of which lies they told. http://enenews.com/
Snowden won't take the deal, he didn't risk his life & his career just to capitulate. And I'm sure he's perfectly safe, if anything the CIA is gonna make sure he's protected, because if anything happens to him the US will get the biggest black eye in history.
S
shade91
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You can't exactly apply those standards for whistleblower status when the top most echelons of government up to the President are complicit in the crimes committed against the American people and the gross violation of our Civil and Constitutional rights. This is one of those "Whistleblower or not, we'll lock you up, throw away the key, and claim national security to shut everyone up".
The events surrounding this blow the standards used for that apart and cannot be applied here. How do you protect a whistleblower who let the cat out of the bag that the Executive arm of government is committing crimes against the Constitution? The NSA is supposed to spy on our allies and enemies, not American's citizenry!
You have government shill written all over you and it would be shameful to find out you are an American. Please say it isn't so. He became disgruntled when he understood that what he was being told to do was violating my rights and your Constitutionally protected freedoms from Government powers run amuck under the protection of unlawfully created FISA courts. I for one thank him for what he did and what he sacrificed. I'd really like him to release anything related to American-Saudi relations. I'm VERY curious as to why the White House grants the Saudi's such protections when they've been discovered to be directly behind 9/11. I seriously doubt it is oil as we can easily get more oil elsewhere.
Skripka
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All I have done is point out what the law is and says, and explained why Snowden might be many things yet is not a "whistleblower". And that makes me a "government shill"?
And BTW, I have never taken a stand in this thread regarding the ethics of what Snowden did.
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keep being a good little sheep
Personally, I would have applauded Snowden's actions had he limited his exposure of the secrets to domestic spying programs.
But his revelations on America's foreign intelligence programs severely damaged foreign relations as well as compromise/risk American government's ability to protect this nation and interests. So hang him.
But his revelations on America's foreign intelligence programs severely damaged foreign relations as well as compromise/risk American government's ability to protect this nation and interests. So hang him.
S
shade91
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Anybody uttering an iota of support makes them a government shill as far as I'm concerned. Snowden is a true patriot and tossed his entire life and citizenship away to let us know of the massive corruption and crimes our government was committing against us. He should be Person of the Year, not someone who went on the record making a few statements that his predecessors for the past 50 years should have been saying.
You did when you called him disgruntled. How would you know his state of mind? He merely said he couldn't stomach what he was employed to do anymore and felt we had a right to know what our government was doing. That somehow makes him disgruntled?
Red Squirrel
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Yeah Snowden is a hero, I don't know how anyone could think otherwise.
Another murderous statist. America damages its own foreign relations by acting dishonorably towards its so called "allies" and bullying the rest of the world. Given the rank incompetence displayed by the NSA (who have obviously never heard of the principle of least privilege), I have no doubt that the entire world already knows everything there is to know about the NSA; Edward Snowden's "leaks" only give the Chinese and the Russians the ability to bitch without having admitted that they hacked into the NSA themselves.
haha are you fucking... i dont even... haha
I'm torn on my opinion, I consider him both a patriotic whistleblower and a traitor.
He exposed unconstitutional spying on American citizens, which is a huge an patriotic action. He also exposed America's intelligence gathering on non-American citizens (Ie Angela Merkel). A foreign national in another country does NOT have protections of American law. So on one hand he's a patriot by exposing the governments wrongdoings to his fellow American citizens, then on the other hand he is a traitor by exposing our covert operations on non-American citizens.
I'm of like mind. But I think the patriotic side of it wins for me, even if not by a huge margin.
Funny part about the story regarding foreign countries is that they were all so offended by the US surveillance on them when they do the exact same thing. All these government are the same...
The litmus test is does this person negatively affect the party in power. If yes, no whistle blower, if it demeans the opposing political group they are a whistleblower.
Except that he exposed that we are spying on our closest allies. Why are we spying on our friends?
Josef Stalin was our ally once. That's why.
And by the way, they're all spying on us as well. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.
Yes, I made up Josef Stalin. I also made up HardForum. YOU ARE PART OF MY IMAGINAYSHUN.
OK guys.
1st off, this report tags the source as "....some NSA Officials...." Who cares, the NSA has nothing to do with it now, it's way past the NSA deciding anything.
He is the FBI's and the DoJ's bitch now. You tell me this is coming from DoJ officials and maybe you got something, until then he is an FBI target.
2nd, the programs are currently legal programs. If the law is unconstitutional then that will be worked out. In fact, a Federal Judge ruled exactly that today on the phone record programs. But until it's ruled differently the programs are still legal and therefor Snowden can be your hero if you like, but if the FBI get their hands on him he will burn for it.
There were other ways he could have pursued this and he didn't try any of them, he'll burn.
1st off, this report tags the source as "....some NSA Officials...." Who cares, the NSA has nothing to do with it now, it's way past the NSA deciding anything.
He is the FBI's and the DoJ's bitch now. You tell me this is coming from DoJ officials and maybe you got something, until then he is an FBI target.
2nd, the programs are currently legal programs. If the law is unconstitutional then that will be worked out. In fact, a Federal Judge ruled exactly that today on the phone record programs. But until it's ruled differently the programs are still legal and therefor Snowden can be your hero if you like, but if the FBI get their hands on him he will burn for it.
There were other ways he could have pursued this and he didn't try any of them, he'll burn.
Skripka
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Only part I disagree with is that last statement. There really isn't any legal way of getting this info public.
Spies is such a harsh word. Our Intelligence services and Military spy, that's their job and you better be damn glad they do, unless you aren't an American, if you aren't you can suck it.
And you have not one shread of proof, not one leaked document, that shows that the NSA spies on US Citizens who have not been targeted by the FBI and warrants issued for the surveillance. Not even one.
Oh yes there is.
There are several approved methods, all legal, he never once tried any legal method.
He didn't question immediate superiors.
He didn't report anything to the NSA's own oversight office.
He didn't go to any other government organization.
There is a list of something like 30 different entities responsible for NSA oversight, he didn't try any of them. He did it wrong.
Right. And Frank Serpico had many approved methods of reporting corruption within the department.
Skripka
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And going to any of them would've had him fired and nothing would have come out to the public...
Because everything that has been done has been legal up until today's ruling regarding phone data.
The NSA aren't a bunch of corrupt cops with badges and guns. They are computer nerds, intel analysts, jesus get a grip, their programs are legal, their methods approved, all these secret documents are only proof of what is common, known, established operating procedures. It's not like he is showing the world a hidden closed black door that the rest of the NSA, Congress, the DNI, the FBI, the DoJ, etc etc didn't already know about. You gota get this right in your head, it was only secret from people without a clearance and a need to know. Forget about a littler dark room where 20 people are trying to find Jason Bourne cause it isn't like that. I bet no less then 3,000 people knew of these programs.
dandragonrage
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Even if they decide to let him come back, he'd be an idiot to take them up on it. If he knows what's best for him (and he probably does), he will never return to the USA again.
I've said this before, thousands had to have known about these programs, they are not illegal, and Edward Snowden is not the only believer out there. He is just the asshole who decided to do it the wrong way cause he is too stupid and ignorant of it all to understand there was a right way. He worked there for 3 weeks, shit he barely even had a security card and a network account in 3 weeks. A new guy in jobs like these can sit for days before they ever let him in to actually start working. I should know, in the last 15 years I have worked on similar contracts for L3 Communications, Computer Sciences Corp, Northrup Grumman, Oberon Associates, Raytheon, SAIC, and NCI. Like I said, until the DoJ or the FBI says something about amnesty it's useless conjecture.
Awesome sentence, dude.
Missed my point. You can talk all you like about "official" ways to report wrongdoing, but those routes are often controlled or influenced by those engaged in the wrongdoing. I'm not going to outright paint the government as evil, so please stop outright painting it as noble.
Your point is invalid, you surmise the consequences for actions based on an incorrect view of reality. In the very first place, Snowden didn't even work for the Government, never did unless you count his 4 months in the Army. He worked as a security guard, a Dell warranty tech, and an system's administrator/analyst for weeks with Booze Allen. The Amazing thing is that because of his clearance he had to have received training on the restrictions of collecting information on U.S. Persons, it's usually about 2 hours in some auditorium somewhere where they spend a lengthy amount of time talking about exactly this situation and they even explain exactly the correct process for reporting what you think could be a violation of these laws.
He didn't talk to his supervisor that we know of. He never said he reported it to anyone at all. That's because he learned this stuff the wrong way, he decided it was wrong all on his own, and he just took everything he could get his hands on and him and his reporter friends have been trying to figure it all out, what it all means, and release it in ways that make it look as damning as possible. He has hurt our country in ways you can't imagine, the good he has done is far out-weighted by the damage he has caused. And I don't think for a moment he will ever be free again in his life unless he comes home to face his crimes. Maybe he will find a lenient judge like the one who handled the Manning trial, maybe not. As far as I care, he can rot in Russia because he is going to find that he has no real friends there, no family, no one that really gives a damn about him. As soon as this is all forgotten so he will become nothing more then a name on a wiki page and a picture on Security Briefs pointing out the "Insider Threat".
He didn't talk to his supervisor that we know of. He never said he reported it to anyone at all. That's because he learned this stuff the wrong way, he decided it was wrong all on his own, and he just took everything he could get his hands on and him and his reporter friends have been trying to figure it all out, what it all means, and release it in ways that make it look as damning as possible. He has hurt our country in ways you can't imagine, the good he has done is far out-weighted by the damage he has caused. And I don't think for a moment he will ever be free again in his life unless he comes home to face his crimes. Maybe he will find a lenient judge like the one who handled the Manning trial, maybe not. As far as I care, he can rot in Russia because he is going to find that he has no real friends there, no family, no one that really gives a damn about him. As soon as this is all forgotten so he will become nothing more then a name on a wiki page and a picture on Security Briefs pointing out the "Insider Threat".
What a bastard. Thinking for himself.
FearTheCow
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Oh yes, we should all be so fucking happy that we get spied on by our own government for doing nothing wrong, how stupid could we have been.
chockomonkey
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The US school system is trying really hard to stop this sort of attitude. Guess it didn't happen soon enough to stop this Snowden bastardo.
lcpiper, your attitude is the key problem here. I isolated the defining quote, where you state with disdain that this average guy could have "decided it was wrong all on his own". That implies that such judgments require the state to tell us what is wrong. That our morality, in fact, is dependent upon the conclusions of bureaucrats and advisory panels.
That, my friend, is unabashed authoritarianism.
That, my friend, is unabashed authoritarianism.
chockomonkey
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From everything i've read on this nonsense, they make it sound as if the spying has already been done. Is this not the case?
The cases where people have been disciplined for abusing the NSA information all have in common that the data is there to be searched and they searched it. Perhaps I misinterpreted the information provided, but this is how it seemed to me.
No Stiletto, there was more before that statement that helps define it. He didn't know the rules, he didn't know the protections in place, the procedures, the requirements. He saw a little, illegally, the stuff he stole in Japan while he worked for Dell, and he started trying to figure it out. But such things are rarely all laid out in a single document all neat from end to end. And for someone with no experience with these things the documents have a way of being hard to understand. It's a matter of context and because he stole this stuff and was never trained to understand it or to see it from within the rest of the system, he got it wrong. He got it wrong the same way any of you would, the same way these reports have.
That is why a training slide that shows the NSA uses a particular technique against Google doesn't mean the NSA hacks Google, Google is just a familiar name so it is easy to get across the concept without sidetracking the training. Besides, if the slide really had depicted an actual attack then the slide's classification marking would have been different. These are the things trained people recognize and untrained people do not. This is why untrained people do not know what is going on and shows just how wrong the press can be, on purpose or in ignorance. Snowden was a loose cannon, truly, he never should have been given clearance and access, he had an agenda before he ever knew what was real and what wasn't. But he did see things that look like they prove he is right, the media has done a good job selling it because hell, it sure sells.
But when the dust settles the courts and perhaps congress will re-look these programs. The cat is out of the bag so they will be able to promise greater oversight cause secrecy is a moot point. And the US will have a much harder time tracking the real bad guys not because the courts or congress forces them to stop spying on Americans but because now the bad guys are so aware of our capability.
In some ways, the people with the overboard claims of how millions are tracked all the time everywhere in the world might be a good thing. Maybe the bad guys will just get too scared to ever try and use a phone or computer again.
SNAP ! I should invest in carrier pigeons
That is why a training slide that shows the NSA uses a particular technique against Google doesn't mean the NSA hacks Google, Google is just a familiar name so it is easy to get across the concept without sidetracking the training. Besides, if the slide really had depicted an actual attack then the slide's classification marking would have been different. These are the things trained people recognize and untrained people do not. This is why untrained people do not know what is going on and shows just how wrong the press can be, on purpose or in ignorance. Snowden was a loose cannon, truly, he never should have been given clearance and access, he had an agenda before he ever knew what was real and what wasn't. But he did see things that look like they prove he is right, the media has done a good job selling it because hell, it sure sells.
But when the dust settles the courts and perhaps congress will re-look these programs. The cat is out of the bag so they will be able to promise greater oversight cause secrecy is a moot point. And the US will have a much harder time tracking the real bad guys not because the courts or congress forces them to stop spying on Americans but because now the bad guys are so aware of our capability.
In some ways, the people with the overboard claims of how millions are tracked all the time everywhere in the world might be a good thing. Maybe the bad guys will just get too scared to ever try and use a phone or computer again.
SNAP ! I should invest in carrier pigeons
The data on foreign nationals was searched. Every search but one against a US Person was blocked by their security system. The one that got through was an Intel Analyst who was working on a legit foreign target and was checking family, one of the family members was a US Person, but US Person does not mean a Citizen. Any foreign worker who works for a US Company gains US Person status because of the US Business's privacy rights. This analyst just screwed up, an accident and she was disciplined for her mistake. All the other searches against US Persons were blocked and the people caught. The ones who weren't caught so easy and did get data were searches on foreign nationals, their data is not protected by the same constraints and yet, they were still caught and punished. There are always bad apples, but your data is still protected.
The devils in the details.