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Recommend a Good Cheap Mini-PC for Light Linux Desktop Use?

Zarathustra[H]

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
40,960
Hi Everyone,

What does everyone use for this?

I've been using an Intel Compute Stick STK2M364CC. It's a Cedar City (Skylake era) Core m3-6Y30, 2C/4T 900Mhz base, 2.2Ghz max turbo with 4GB of DDR3L RAM.

It was never a screamer by any means, but it could (and still can in most cases) handle a typical lightweight desktop load pretty well.

I originally bought it as a experiment because I was curious what such a tiny thing could do, and was rather impressed with it. It was sitting around in my office closet forever, so in 2019 I brought it into the office and used it as my break browsing machine. I Installed Linux Mint and the Mullvad VPN client, hooked it up to a secondary video input on my work monitor, got the cheapest USB KVM switch on Amazon, connected it to the guest WIFI, and used it for stuff like posting on the Hardforums and reading the news during my lunch breaks. I also have Spotify on it, so I brought a secondary cheap USB DAC/Amp and my old headphones and connected them to it, so if I need to bury my head and hyper-focus on some work task, I can play music in the background and get it done.

I don't like mixing work and private stuff, and I don't like being spied on, so this seemed like a pretty good and innocuous idea.

I figured if IT is OK with people connecting their phones to the guest wifi, this ought to be fine too. It's one of those "better to ask forgiveness than permission" type of deals, but I doubt I'll ever have to ask forgiveness on this one.

Anyway, it worked very well, but then the pandemic hit, I packed up my desk and brought it home, and worked from home for a couple of years. I only got around to bringing it back in very recently. While it still does great for web browsing, Youtube does not work well. Over the pandemic Youtube seems to have switched codecs from H264 and VP8, and the Skylake era Compute Stick does not support decoding VP9 in hardware.

In other words, watching a youtube video pins all 4 threads like this resulting in skipping and stuttering:

1720624761505.png


...at least at anything higher than 1080p 30hz...

So, it might be time for a replacement lightweight linux work box.

I have an unused Hardkernel Odroid N2+ at home I could press into service for this cause. While the benchmarks I've seen (limited to Geekbench sadly) the Odroid N2+ falls quite far below even the Compute Stick with the m3-6Y30 in raw CPU power, Linux dies reportedly run well on ARM (I've never actually tested it), and the Odroid N2+ hardware decodes most modern codecs so it ought to work...

...but I have to admit, I hate dealing with microSD and eMMC, and would prefer not having to. It is also unclear which of the packages I would want actually have ARM versions.

So, I have been thinking about what else I might get that would be a good replacement, keepoing in mind that this is very low priority, so I am not going to spend much money on it.

Requirements are:
1.) Cheap
2.) Low power / Quiet / Small / Unobtrusive / Tiny and Inconspicuous
3.) Must be able to output to one 1080p monitor over HDMI or DP.
4.) Able to do basic web/email/youtube desktop stuff, preferably under Linux Mint / Cinnamon
5.) Either hardware decode compatibility with the latest codecs, or enough brute force that this does not matter.
6.) Preferably not Chinese "random brandname generator" crap.
7.) Preferably real storage (SATA or NVMe, not USB, MicroSD or eMMC)
8.) Must have wifi. Does not need to be latest spec. (work is still on 802.11ac anyway)
9.) Must have 2-3 USB2 or faster ports.
10.) Prefer having at least one Gigabit or faster ethernet port. (Intel chipset is a plus)

Things I don't care about:
- TPM / Windows 11 compatibility
- GPU, or high end CPU performance. This will only ever be used for basic desktop use.
- NPU/AI or any bullshit like that.
- New high speed USB-C or Thunderbolt standards. Just don't care
- Multiple monitor outputs
- On board audio


One model I came across and kind of like is the newish Hardkernel Odroid H4. It is x86 using an Intel Processor N97. It has a single DDR5 RAM slot and an x4 m.2 slot.

Pros:
- Reasonably Cheap ($99)
- N97 seems pretty capable (more so than the more popular N100) and supports all the latest standards.
- Ram slot and m.2 slot.
- Hardkernel seems to be a pretty reputable hobbyist small board computer maker, and they are South Korean, not Chinese (huge plus). I've had good experiences with my Odroid N2+ units as Kodi frontends.
- Has what I need, and almost nothing I don't.

Cons
- They nickel and dime you. Board may be $99, but then you have to buy the power supply, case, etc. etc. separately


So, this is the leading candidate right now, but I wonder what there might be out there I am missing. Any other alternatives I may not be aware of I should be keeping in mind?

Appreciate any suggestions.

Any other suggestions?
 
Get one of these mini PC's. dbwillis has been selling many of these over the past year for as low as $65 shipped.
You can get mounts to mount it to the back of the PC I believe.
The one I have is an older one with a Ryzen 2400 Pro, 16GB Ram, 256GB NVME and a 1TB SSD.
IMG_6767.JPGIMG_6761.JPG
 
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#JustSayNo2Lenovo# :)

I've bought some of the HP minis from dbwillis over the past 3 years, neveranottaproblemo, reasonable prices & fast shipping too, and my wife is using one for her WFH day as I type this !
 
TeleFragger said:
i love these tiny's as they use like 18 watts of power... fast, power friendly...
ebay can get them cheaper..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/276540568643
Click to expand...

Those are cool too. I'm not usually a fan of Lenovo, after some of the crap they have pulled in the past (UEFI Spyware, etc.) but I might give them some thought.

Do any of you happen to know the dimensions of these Lenovo Tiny boxes?
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
Those are cool too. I'm not usually a fan of Lenovo, after some of the crap they have pulled in the past (UEFI Spyware, etc.) but I might give them some thought.

Do any of you happen to know the dimensions of these Lenovo Tiny boxes?
Click to expand...
quick google
179 x 183 x 34.5
 
Hmm...

Some more research suggests the benefit of Alder Lake-N (n100, n97, etc.) is VP1 (which will probably start being used everywhere soon) hardware decode support.
 
Correction, It's an N100

I don't know about Linux, but I'm using an N100 that came with a 512GB M.2 and 16GB DDR5 for like 170 Bucks. I use it as a torrent server and it only draws a tiny amount of power compared to the AMD 2200U mini I had in it's place. It's respectable in terms of performance for what you get. You can get machines like this for less... Just shop the deals and if it doesn't come with a License it will be like 140 Bucks or less.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C3XDVV55?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
 
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pendragon1 said:
vp1? not av1? if you really think you need it, then find a unit with one of those chips, like this: https://www.amazon.com/AWOW-512GB-Gigabit-Ethernet-Type-C/dp/B0D496ZKHQ
Click to expand...
Yeah, I meant AV1. I got my wires crossed (since I understand it is intended to replace VP9 eventually)

Do I need it right now? Probably not.

But since the only reason I am considering replacing the compute stick is the lack of VP9 decode support, I don't want to wind up back in the same situation any faster than I have to, so since there are devices that support AV1, and AV1 is likely to be widely used in the not too distant future, I think I am going to opt for that.
 
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So, after much research I decided to go ahead with the lowest end Hardkernel Odroid H4 box, in part because of the N97 CPU, in part because of video decode support of all important modern formats (including AV1) in part because Hardkernel is a well regarded and trusted manufacturer I have used before (and not Chinese!) and in part because I like the small form factor (though I wish they had a smaller case for it, without the 15mm fan clearance on the top.

I'm going to continue to monitor for after-market cases for this thing. I've seen some on 3d printing maker pages, but I don't have a 3d printer. (I've considered getting into 3d printing, but I just have too much on my plate to add yet another hobby)

Ameridroid (their biggest U.S. retailer) was out of stock of the smallest case (and have a pretty serious markup) so I decided to order straight from South Korea. No idea how long it will take to get here. I ordered a couple of Odroid N2+ boards straight from South Korea before, but I can't remember how long shipping took last time.

Now I need to remember to search my parts bin for some spare m.2 drives (I think I have at least one decent one I am not using). I'll also need to order a DDR5 SODIMM, but the 8GB ones (I won't need more RAM than that for this application for a long time) are surprisingly affordable.

I think this will be a great little box for the purpose.
 
Whoops.

After deciding and ordering, I noticed that the Odroid H4 series don't have on board wifi. They have one m.2 port, but I need that one for storage, so I can't use it for a WLAN card.

Normally I would be just fine with this, as I prefer wired ethernet, but with this one needing to use the "Guest WiFi" at work, this is the one time where WiFi would come in handy. :/

While WiFi is much improved under Linux compared tot he bad old days, this mostly applies to WLAN cards, both the older mini PCIe and the newer m.2 varieties. It looks like I am going to have to use a USB Wifi solution, and those are still kind of sketchy under linux.

This is the only list of units I have found that are confirmed working, and it is best to stay on the "in-kernel" list, as with the driver modules provided from vendors there is no guarantee they keep up with them. They usually just release a half-assed kernel driver just so they can say they have Linux support, and then don't update it. After a period of time, it may not even compile anymore due to deprecated dependencies, etc.

I wound up getting a used Netgear A6210 on eBay. It's older, but the work "Guest WiFi" is only 802.11ac anyway, so no loss.

The irony is that the Odroid H4 got here from South Korea within 24 hours of shipping. The Wifi adapter is taking the slow USPS land route from the west coast to the east coast. It won't arrive until Jul 22nd, 10 days after I placed the order :p
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Whoops.

After deciding and ordering, I noticed that the Odroid H4 series don't have on board wifi. They have one m.2 port, but I need that one for storage, so I can't use it for a WLAN card.

Normally I would be just fine with this, as I prefer wired ethernet, but with this one needing to use the "Guest WiFi" at work, this is the one time where WiFi would come in handy. :/

While WiFi is much improved under Linux compared tot he bad old days, this mostly applies to WLAN cards, both the older mini PCIe and the newer m.2 varieties. It looks like I am going to have to use a USB Wifi solution, and those are still kind of sketchy under linux.

This is the only list of units I have found that are confirmed working, and it is best to stay on the "in-kernel" list, as with the driver modules provided from vendors there is no guarantee they keep up with them. They usually just release a half-assed kernel driver just so they can say they have Linux support, and then don't update it. After a period of time, it may not even compile anymore due to deprecated dependencies, etc.

I wound up getting a used Netgear A6210 on eBay. It's older, but the work "Guest WiFi" is only 802.11ac anyway, so no loss.

The irony is that the Odroid H4 got here from South Korea within 24 hours of shipping. The Wifi adapter is taking the slow USPS land route from the west coast to the east coast. It won't arrive until Jul 22nd, 10 days after I placed the order :p
Click to expand...
why wouldnt you just return it and get a unit that has everything in it. there are a tonne of these little guys on sale for prime day...
 
pendragon1 said:
why wouldnt you just return it and get a unit that has everything in it. there are a tonne of these little guys on sale for prime day...
Click to expand...

1.) Ordered it from South Korea. I don't want to ship it back.

2.) Most of these mini-PC's come from Chinese fly-by-night "brand name generator" brands, and honestly, I wouldn't touch those at any price, as I don't trust them. (I even have my reservations when it comes to Lenovo and Motorola these days) Hardkernel is a very reputable brand.

While I would have preferred having it on board, it's not the end of the world. If I don't like it for this particular application, I have any number of other use cases for it which would all be wired.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I will get good use out of it one way or another.
 
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Nobody anywhere can beat temus prices conerning mini-pcs atm...

It´s just a hassle to:

- use a burner phone
- think about a ruse as to how to gift your enemies a ssd with a preinstalled "seeminly empty" os
- ignore some really shady soc soldering

Perfect for non-critcal stuff.

Braindead idea if any private stuff is involved though, like already (wisely) advised.
 
Temu, shemu... I wouldn't buy a bag of dog poo from that place, and you won't either if you're smart....

And btw...........YOU'RE WELCOME :)
 
I build and sell a tonne of MSI Cubi 5 12M systems, never had a problem. They perform well, have a small footprint, and a HDMI as well as a full sized DP out. They also have a jack type socked for audio out.

The fact they have a 3 year warranty is a bonus.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I build and sell a tonne of MSI Cubi 5 12M systems, never had a problem. They perform well, have a small footprint, and a HDMI as well as a full sized DP out. They also have a jack type socked for audio out.

The fact they have a 3 year warranty is a bonus.
Click to expand...

These look like they would have been a good option. Maybe next time.
 
All the parts for the Odroid H4 finally arrived.

It is a nice little box, runs cool, and is much more performant than the old Intel Compute stick I was using. At default settings (configurable in BIOS) the optional fan turns on at 40C, and unless I am doing something heavy, it is off most of the time in a standard office ambient (72F? Don't have a thermometer here.) Even when it turns on, I cant hear it over the white noise in the office. I bet this would be fine fanless.

I temporarily set it up to boot off of my Gen4 Sabrent Rocket 4 2TB drive I had kicking around, but that's only to get the build moving forward. This drive is both overkill for this box, and I don't trust it at all, as this is now the third Rocket 4 drive I've had (after RMA:ing the first two for turning into paper-weights) but I figured it was good enough to get started.

I have a 118GB Intel Optane 800p coming which will be a perfect match for this little box I think. Small, because it doesn't need lots of storage, very fast 4k random reads making the system feel super responsive, but limited to two Gen3 lanes so it won't get those screaming high sequentials (which means it's cheaper than most Optanes on the used market making it perfect for a little budget machine like this.

As is expected from Hardkernels Odroid devices, the board is top notch. The OEM Type 1 case is a little disappointing.

It seems like such a waste to make such a nice compact board with high quality components just to waste so much space with an inefficient case.

1721761659882.png


There is excessive clearance on the bottom and top. I bet for a fanless configuration one could shave maybe 4mm off the bottom between the bottom of the board and the bottom of the case, and another 20mm off the top, reducing the height by 24mm and making it much more compact. 24mm may not sound like much but that would be a 40% height reduction for this thing.

PXL_20240723_184423725.jpg


I could always make my own I guess (that's what people do with SBC's right?) but I have like 12 million projects that are higher priority than this right now.

Also, hardware VP9 acceleration does not appear to be working in Firefox on Linux, which is annoying considering that is one of the main reasons I selected this CPU over an older model. YouTube playback loads up the four cores quite a lot, but at least 1080p is smooth now (4k still stutters) This may just be a a matter of open source kernel/driver support catching up. Not sure.
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
Also, hardware VP9 acceleration does not appear to be working in Firefox on Linux, which is annoying considering that is one of the main reasons I selected this CPU over an older model. YouTube playback loads up the four cores quite a lot, but at least 1080p is smooth now (4k still stutters) This may just be a a matter of open source kernel/driver support catching up. Not sure.
Click to expand...

This may have been a misdiagnosis. There might have been other things loading up the cores at the time. Now when testing I can't seem to load it up more than 25%-30% with YouTube video at any resolution. Still seems a bit high, but these are E-Cores after all. May not be actual decode that us loading them up, but rather scaling, etc. in the browser window. Not sure.

Forcing 4k still stutters a little, but that might just be bandwidth related, as I think the work guest wifi is throttled to about 20Mbit.

Doesn't really matter. I rarely watch video at work, and either way, the screen is only 1080p, so what I have works for my needs, was just trying to make sure everything was set up and working properly.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Whoops.

After deciding and ordering, I noticed that the Odroid H4 series don't have on board wifi. They have one m.2 port, but I need that one for storage, so I can't use it for a WLAN card.

Normally I would be just fine with this, as I prefer wired ethernet, but with this one needing to use the "Guest WiFi" at work, this is the one time where WiFi would come in handy. :/

While WiFi is much improved under Linux compared tot he bad old days, this mostly applies to WLAN cards, both the older mini PCIe and the newer m.2 varieties. It looks like I am going to have to use a USB Wifi solution, and those are still kind of sketchy under linux.

This is the only list of units I have found that are confirmed working, and it is best to stay on the "in-kernel" list, as with the driver modules provided from vendors there is no guarantee they keep up with them. They usually just release a half-assed kernel driver just so they can say they have Linux support, and then don't update it. After a period of time, it may not even compile anymore due to deprecated dependencies, etc.

I wound up getting a used Netgear A6210 on eBay. It's older, but the work "Guest WiFi" is only 802.11ac anyway, so no loss.

The irony is that the Odroid H4 got here from South Korea within 24 hours of shipping. The Wifi adapter is taking the slow USPS land route from the west coast to the east coast. It won't arrive until Jul 22nd, 10 days after I placed the order :p
Click to expand...

Made an interesting discovery.

Apparently they have an m.2 breakout board and bifurcation support that allows turning the 4x m.2 slot into two 2x m.2 slots.

1722361691205.png


Normally I would be opposed to this as I'd want the drive to have its full performance, but since I am using an Optane 800p drive which only uses 2x slots anyway, there are no reasons not to do this for me.

I ordered one of these, and intend to use the second slot for a WIFI 7 m.2 card. (I have one kicking around somewhere I am not using)

I also ordered a set of panel mount antennas on eBay. I figure I can drill two holes in the case, and tighten these down no problem.

1722361829030.png


That way I won't have to use a USB Wifi module after all.


As an aside, the Intel Processor N97 comes with 9 PCIe lanes. It's a shame they only routed 4 of them to an actual slot.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Made an interesting discovery.

Apparently they have an m.2 breakout board and bifurcation support that allows turning the 4x m.2 slot into two 2x m.2 slots.

View attachment 669242

Normally I would be opposed to this as I'd want the drive to have its full performance, but since I am using an Optane 800p drive which only uses 2x slots anyway, there are no reasons not to do this for me.

I ordered one of these, and intend to use the second slot for a WIFI 7 m.2 card. (I have one kicking around somewhere I am not using)

I also ordered a set of panel mount antennas on eBay. I figure I can drill two holes in the case, and tighten these down no problem.

View attachment 669243

That way I won't have to use a USB Wifi module after all.


As an aside, the Intel Processor N97 comes with 9 PCIe lanes. It's a shame they only routed 4 of them to an actual slot.
Click to expand...


Whoops.

So I have handled and installed a very large number of m.2 NVMe drives over the years. I've also handled and installed quite a few m.2 WLAN cards over the years.

I never even noticed they were keyed differently.

I of course was aware of M key and B key (and M+B key) and their distinctions, but I never even noticed E-Key until now

Went to insert the Intel BE200 WLAN cards and only then noticed it didn't fit

Guess I need an adapter


What a pain. There seems like there is no good reason other than for them to be huge pains in the asses to let these things differently.

Just give us general purpose slots and let us do with them as we please already!
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Made an interesting discovery.

Apparently they have an m.2 breakout board and bifurcation support that allows turning the 4x m.2 slot into two 2x m.2 slots.

View attachment 669242

Normally I would be opposed to this as I'd want the drive to have its full performance, but since I am using an Optane 800p drive which only uses 2x slots anyway, there are no reasons not to do this for me.

I ordered one of these, and intend to use the second slot for a WIFI 7 m.2 card. (I have one kicking around somewhere I am not using)

I also ordered a set of panel mount antennas on eBay. I figure I can drill two holes in the case, and tighten these down no problem.

View attachment 669243

That way I won't have to use a USB Wifi module after all.


As an aside, the Intel Processor N97 comes with 9 PCIe lanes. It's a shame they only routed 4 of them to an actual slot.
Click to expand...

Decided to go with some internal antennas instead. I suppose I can mount these on the inside of the case:

1722644814088.png

1722644831607.png



The 118GB Optane 800p arrived last night, and this illustrates why I love these drives so much:

Intel_Optane_800p_118GB.png


Just look at those random numbers. Screw sequential figures. Random is where the true performance is.

Here is a 2TB 990 Pro for comparison:


Samsung_990_Pro_2TB.png


The cheap little Optane 800p with only two Gen3 lanes is 3 times faster at 4k random 1 thread. Its just nuts.

If you want a responsive system, this is the way to go. If you strike at the right moment, you can get the 800p drives for very little on eBay.
 
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