re: Mantle

[Elf_Boy]

Hi Guys, I've read a few bits and pieces here and there, I am, however, hoping to get a more concrete understanding of both what mantle is (and supposed to accomplish) as well as what does it imply to my current GTX 680 in games.

I ran across a free "Star Swarm Stress Test" in the steam store last night.

When I ran it I got the option of mantle or D3D. There was a convenient 'click here' button for the mantle option that took me straight to what looked like a run of the mill, out-of-the-box AMD GPU driver for windows 8.1.

I glanced though the notes and saw many AMD products listed as comparable. No options for nvidia cards (not that I was surprised by that) and nothing that said 'just for windows. No AMD GPU silicon required"

So, Whats the point? And should I somehow come to the decision I want to even just check out the point a tiny little bit for light entertainment (while hoping it doesn't hose my OS - it did say Beta after all), how do I get it for MY system/GPU?

The test did look pretty nifty in d3d mode.

 

[trick0502]

You don't want the mantle game path, you want the gameworks path.

 

[BullseyeBob]

Mantle is developed by AMD.

 

[Spazturtle]

Mantel is a new API (like DirectX or OpenGl) designed to be able to support a higher number of draw calls and have a much lowwer CPU overhead. It is currently in beta and only runs of AMD hardware, the API is being opened up later as well as being ported to linux.

 

[Elf_Boy]

Mantel is a new API (like DirectX or OpenGl) designed to be able to support a higher number of draw calls and have a much lowwer CPU overhead. It is currently in beta and only runs of AMD hardware, the API is being opened up later as well as being ported to linux.

Thank you.

Once it is debugged and working maybe a cool thing, maybe not.

 

[KazeoHin]

In an interview with one of AMD's engineers, he stated that Mantle will eventually open up so that any GPU manufacturer (AMD, Nvidia, Matrox, Intel) will be able to license and use it.

This is not the case right now.

 

[LordEC911]

In an interview with one of AMD's engineers, he stated that Mantle will eventually open up so that any GPU manufacturer (AMD, Nvidia, Matrox, Intel) will be able to license and use it.

This is not the case right now.

No license needed. Once AMD makes the SDK available the GPU manufacturers can decide to support it or not.
Edit- To clarify, Huddy said no license fee but they want to keep control over Mantle.

 

[Dreamerbydesign]

In an interview with one of AMD's engineers, he stated that Mantle will eventually open up so that any GPU manufacturer (AMD, Nvidia, Matrox, Intel) will be able to license and use it.

This is not the case right now.

First they'd have to prove Mantle was marketable and worth a damn. Then perhaps third parties may have interest. Except for a few stringent situations, it has proven to be more marketing hype than anything.

 

[LordEC911]

First they'd have to prove Mantle was marketable and worth a damn. Then perhaps third parties may have interest. Except for a few stringent situations, it has proven to be more marketing hype than anything.

+40devs committed through 2015 and ~30 of those are asking AMD to continue their support of Mantle after 2015.

 

[Pastuch]

Thank you.

Once it is debugged and working maybe a cool thing, maybe not.

It works perfectly in Battlefield 4 right now and makes the game run much better on my PC.

 

[cageymaru]

It works perfectly in Battlefield 4 right now and makes the game run much better on my PC.

Runs very smooth in Thief and Battlefield Hardline also. Great tech for those it currently applies to.

 

[Elf_Boy]

All sounds cool.

Then again Glide was pretty awesome for a while too.

Sounds nifty though and something I'd like to see work.

With DirectX and OpenGl being mostly it right now, I can see a 3rd API being really good, awesomely good for linux. Could end the need for wine.

 

[TangledThorns]

It works perfectly in Battlefield 4 right now and makes the game run much better on my PC.

Cool, I have yet to turn it on BF4 though I didn't feel the need as I have a 280X so I may not notice a difference

 

[limitedaccess]

No license needed. Once AMD makes the SDK available the GPU manufacturers can decide to support it or not.
Edit- To clarify, Huddy said no license fee but they want to keep control over Mantle.

The problem with this is as long as AMD retains control over Mantle they can legally at anytime in the future change aspects of it (whether technically or from a licensing perspective) to be self beneficial and/or detrimental to others. Therefore there would be very negative long term consequences for other hardware vendors adopting this, such as Nvidia and to some extent Intel (or maybe even Qualcomm and etc. in the future), and in turn helping Mantle gain (possibly) dominant market share. This would in turn would limit the competitiveness of the market for consumers over the long term.

 

[Pieter3dnow]

The problem with this is as long as AMD retains control over Mantle they can legally at anytime in the future change aspects of it (whether technically or from a licensing perspective) to be self beneficial and/or detrimental to others. Therefore there would be very negative long term consequences for other hardware vendors adopting this, such as Nvidia and to some extent Intel (or maybe even Qualcomm and etc. in the future), and in turn helping Mantle gain (possibly) dominant market share. This would in turn would limit the competitiveness of the market for consumers over the long term.

And yet AMD has never screwed anyone over in this sense before. So what is this fear of Mantle being the AMD linchpin in a war to screw everyone ?

 

[Elios]

In an interview with one of AMD's engineers, he stated that Mantle will eventually open up so that any GPU manufacturer (AMD, Nvidia, Matrox, Intel) will be able to license and use it.*

This is not the case right now.

*if they redesign there GPUs to use GCN

AMD can open it all they want if AMD cant make it run on none GCN gpus then it aint running on any one else ether
i wouldnt hold your breath waiting for NV to convert the GCN
and NV doesnt need it any way Maxwell can do every thing Mantle does and do it with ANY game using a arm chip built in the GPU
and fun fact the latest NV drivers run all the games that use mantle in D3D faster then AMD can run them WITH mantle....

 

[socK]

*if they redesign there GPUs to use GCN

AMD can open it all they want if AMD cant make it run on none GCN gpus then it aint running on any one else ether
i wouldnt hold your breath waiting for NV to convert the GCN
and NV doesnt need it any way Maxwell can do every thing Mantle does and do it with ANY game using a arm chip built in the GPU
and fun fact the latest NV drivers run all the games that use mantle in D3D faster then AMD can run them WITH mantle....

Mantle isn't tied to GCN hardware

 

[LordEC911]

The problem with this is as long as AMD retains control over Mantle they can legally at anytime in the future change aspects of it (whether technically or from a licensing perspective) to be self beneficial and/or detrimental to others. Therefore there would be very negative long term consequences for other hardware vendors adopting this, such as Nvidia and to some extent Intel (or maybe even Qualcomm and etc. in the future), and in turn helping Mantle gain (possibly) dominant market share. This would in turn would limit the competitiveness of the market for consumers over the long term.

That is actually one of the key selling points to Mantle. They can update and integrate new features and technology into Mantle much quicker than the other APIs.
While it is true that future changes to Mantle could have some negative impact on performance when using non-AMD Mantle capable hardware, the fact that those other hardware manufacturers would have access to the SDK and any updates, means they could quickly fix any problems that arise.

*if they redesign there GPUs to use GCN

AMD can open it all they want if AMD cant make it run on none GCN gpus then it aint running on any one else ether
i wouldnt hold your breath waiting for NV to convert the GCN
and NV doesnt need it any way Maxwell can do every thing Mantle does and do it with ANY game using a arm chip built in the GPU
and fun fact the latest NV drivers run all the games that use mantle in D3D faster then AMD can run them WITH mantle....

So I only see one thing in your post that is true...

 

[Pieter3dnow]

*fun fact the latest NV drivers run all the games that use mantle in D3D faster then AMD can run them WITH mantle....

So If I have a slow cpu with Nvidia graphics card then I'm going to skyrocket past any AMD Mantle system using the same slow cpu?

You willing to put something on that ?

 

[KazeoHin]

The point of mantle is to eliminate the CPU as a single-threaded bottleneck. I'm pretty sure a 780ti can run BF4 faster than a R9 270. But compare, say, a 290x with a 780 (similar pricing) on a core2quad or first-gen i5, and see what pulls ahead.

 

[KazeoHin]

The problem with this is as long as AMD retains control over Mantle they can legally at anytime in the future change aspects of it (whether technically or from a licensing perspective) to be self beneficial and/or detrimental to others. Therefore there would be very negative long term consequences for other hardware vendors adopting this, such as Nvidia and to some extent Intel (or maybe even Qualcomm and etc. in the future), and in turn helping Mantle gain (possibly) dominant market share. This would in turn would limit the competitiveness of the market for consumers over the long term.

As much as what you are saying is 100% true, I think that what Mantle offers in terms of API competitiveness outweighs potential deliberate vendor-specific gimping, which is already happening with a seemingly neutral API.

With DirectX having an ACTUAL competitor, then we may see Microsoft approach it with more enthusiasm than seeing it as a potential threat to its failing console.

 

[Relayer]

*if they redesign there GPUs to use GCN

AMD can open it all they want if AMD cant make it run on none GCN gpus then it aint running on any one else ether
i wouldnt hold your breath waiting for NV to convert the GCN
and NV doesnt need it any way Maxwell can do every thing Mantle does and do it with ANY game using a arm chip built in the GPU
and fun fact the latest NV drivers run all the games that use mantle in D3D faster then AMD can run them WITH mantle....

nVidia doesn't need to design GCN to work with Mantle. Although Mantle is GCN optimized, so the performance gain for nVidia/Intel (especially Intel) likely wouldn't be as great as AMD with GCN. Although Intel is/was interested.

About where I've bolded; While in GPU limited situations nVidia keeps up fine (depends on other game settings who is faster), as soon as you shift the bottleneck to the CPU Mantle destroys DX. Run BF4 at the settings many competitive gamers use (100+ fps) and minimums jump dramatically with Mantle.

As a side note, Why don't people who notice that nVidia hardware runs fine on Gaming Evolved titles and AMD hardware runs stink on TWIMTBP titles ever question WHY?

 

[KazeoHin]

As a side note, Why don't people who notice that nVidia hardware runs fine on Gaming Evolved titles and AMD hardware runs stink on TWIMTBP titles ever question WHY?

If AMD runs like shit on Nvidia titles, AMD's fault.

If Nvidia runs like shit on AMD titles, AMD's fault

The impressive work of clever marketing.

 

[Relayer]

If AMD runs like shit on Nvidia titles, AMD's fault.

If Nvidia runs like shit on AMD titles, AMD's fault

The impressive work of clever marketing.

Add to that if nVidia hardware runs a TWIMTBP title poorly (WD), the game is poorly optimized/broken. The same game running bad on AMD? Drivers.

 

[KazeoHin]

We just passed "Nvidia forum-level marketing 101"

 

[Elios]

So If I have a slow cpu with Nvidia graphics card then I'm going to skyrocket past any AMD Mantle system using the same slow cpu?

You willing to put something on that ?

mantle doesnt help slow cpus it helps low end gpus
you still need a fast cpu

if mantle isnt tied to GCN then why doesnt AMD support it on ALL there cards ... wait thats right IT IS TIED TO GCN
seems people dont know what low level means
sure you could make wrapper or some thing but you might as well be using DX at that point
AMD should just get some one that can write a OpenGL driver no need for a new API
and hell with DX12 on the way mantle is dead end any way

Mantle is bandaid for a bad architecture/eco-system and now they are stuck with GCN for the next ever
MS called there bluff too AMD HAD to know DX12 was in the pipe

AMD at one point seemed like they could really put the hurt on Intel and NV ... seems the days of that are gone

AMD needs to ditch Mantle and GCN and build a new chips ground up for DX12
and they need to do the same on the CPU front
oh and many be spend a bit on a decent heatsink for there GPUs....

 

[KazeoHin]

mantle doesnt help slow cpus it helps low end gpus
you still need a fast cpu

Uhm... Do you know what you're talking about? The white papers on mantle are ALL about eliminating the existing CPU bottlenecks in DX, and benchmarks prove time and time again that mantle is all about allowing a fast GPU to run at full utilisation despite a slow/ multithreaded CPU.

 

[LordEC911]

First, there =| their.

mantle doesnt help slow cpus it helps low end gpus
you still need a fast cpu

False. The majority of the work and optimization that Mantle brings is to remove the API overhead. That means that at the lowend it moves the bottleneck from the weak CPU more towards the GPU.

The fact that Mantle puts control of the API, and therefore gives them more control of the CPU/GPU, back into the developer's hands means that there is still some unlocked potential for GPU optimizations.

if mantle isnt tied to GCN then why doesnt AMD support it on ALL there cards ... wait thats right IT IS TIED TO GCN

BETA. Mantle just recently moved from Alpha to Beta.
There is nothing in Mantle that directly limits compatibility with previous, VLIW5 and VLIW4, architectures. This is an investment into the future for AMD, which means they are focusing on the architecture that will still be relevant as Mantle gains more and more traction.

seems people dont know what low level means
sure you could make wrapper or some thing but you might as well be using DX at that point

Well you clearly don't know what low level means... The fact that there is an abstraction layer means they have thought ahead enough to realize others might want to support it.

AMD should just get some one that can write a OpenGL driver no need for a new API

While the idea of OpenGL and to some degree it's functionality is better than DirectX, it still leaves a lot to be desired.

and hell with DX12 on the way mantle is dead end any way

Not at all, DX12 is part of the reason they have so many Devs supporting Mantle.
Not to mention a majority of Devs that have told AMD they need to keep developing/supporting Mantle past 2015.

Mantle is bandaid for a bad architecture/eco-system and now they are stuck with GCN for the next ever

Not at all. While their current situation in the CPU market might have been part of the reason for them developing Mantle there are many far more important reasons they have created this API.

I'm not sure what your reasoning is as to why you think AMD is tied to GCN due to Mantle? Architectures evolve and change all the time, the same basic functionality will still be there until the next revolution.

MS called there bluff too AMD HAD to know DX12 was in the pipe

They did. Why do you think MS is going down a similar path as Mantle? AMD gave them quite a few nudges in the correct direction.

AMD needs to ditch Mantle and GCN and build a new chips ground up for DX12
and they need to do the same on the CPU front

There is no reason for AMD to ditch Mantle or GCN. DX12 being so similar to Mantle means that AMD made some good moves to be in this position. They are driving the industry forward and for the better.

I agree on the CPU front. We already know they are doing just that.

 

[Relayer]

mantle doesnt help slow cpus it helps low end gpus
you still need a fast cpu

if mantle isnt tied to GCN then why doesnt AMD support it on ALL there cards ... wait thats right IT IS TIED TO GCN
seems people dont know what low level means
sure you could make wrapper or some thing but you might as well be using DX at that point
AMD should just get some one that can write a OpenGL driver no need for a new API
and hell with DX12 on the way mantle is dead end any way

Mantle is bandaid for a bad architecture/eco-system and now they are stuck with GCN for the next ever
MS called there bluff too AMD HAD to know DX12 was in the pipe

AMD at one point seemed like they could really put the hurt on Intel and NV ... seems the days of that are gone

AMD needs to ditch Mantle and GCN and build a new chips ground up for DX12
and they need to do the same on the CPU front
oh and many be spend a bit on a decent heatsink for there GPUs....

This is the same stuff we were hearing from the beginning of the news about Mantle. None of it has held up. DX and openGL are both bloated and weighed down. Anyone who thinks we were going to get DX12 if Mantle hadn't come along hasn't paid any attention to the way DX11 has developed, or should I more accurately say, hasn't developed. We've had 11.1 and 11.2 in the last 5 years. Hell nVidia is still on feature set 11_0 and the updates have been so minimal that nobody cares. PhysX gets more titles than OpenGL does on the PC. (metaphor alert!) It's like a zombie. It's already dead but continues to walk around feeding off of the living. OpenGL benefits Msft because it allows them to claim they don't have a monopoly.

The only people who will be better off if Mantle goes away are Msft. GPU feature progress can't move beyond DX. When we have virtually the same feature set for 5+ years that's not good for gaming. We need someone pushing the PC API forward and it's not going to be a company who's number one concern is their console that they don't want to see become obsolete. Imagine not having to have Windows with all of it's associated bloat, cost, and manipulation of the marketplace on your PC just so you can play games.

 

[KazeoHin]

In a world where we can play brand-new PC games without windows, Microsoft would actually have to WORK for our money.

 

[Relayer]

In a world where we can play brand-new PC games without windows, Microsoft would actually have to WORK for our money.

Instead of holding your gaming hostage to force you to buy their new OS.

 

[Elios]

In a world where we can play brand-new PC games without windows, Microsoft would actually have to WORK for our money.

Mantle is windows only... or did you miss that
and if AMD cant get a OpenGL driver worked out what makes any one think they can manage a whole API AND driver?

OpenGL would let you play on other OS'
Mantle is windows only

 

[Relayer]

Mantle is windows only... or did you miss that
and if AMD cant get a OpenGL driver worked out what makes any one think they can manage a whole API AND driver?

OpenGL would let you play on other OS'
Mantle is windows only

Mantle on Windows is a whole API and driver. They would need to do the same with Linux. Why would they want to do OpenGL? What games use it on the PC?

 

[KazeoHin]

Mantle is windows only... or did you miss that
and if AMD cant get a OpenGL driver worked out what makes any one think they can manage a whole API AND driver?

OpenGL would let you play on other OS'
Mantle is windows only

Dude, in two recent (this week) interviews, the MAIN AMD rep was like "yeah, Linux is one of our main goals"

As much as I can appreciate the "believe it when you see it" attitude, the truth is that Mantle as a product has only JUST entered beta. All of us here are supporting what mantle COULD BE, not what it is right now. If you only want to support what is currently in your hands right now, then nothing new, innovative or game changing would ever happen.

 

[limitedaccess]

And yet AMD has never screwed anyone over in this sense before. So what is this fear of Mantle being the AMD linchpin in a war to screw everyone ?

AMD is a business, and more specifically it is a large public corporation. Is it not natural to assume like all other similar entities the overall end goal is to leverage whatever assets to be financially self beneficial?

At the end, despite whatever rhetorical and coinciding reasons exist, Mantle was made to be help AMD as a business. If they cannot leverage any business advantage with Mantle why even spend the resources on it at all?

What about looking at it like this, if it were Nvidia or Intel pushing their own API, would you be fine with that API becoming dominant? Or do you feel that Nvidia and Intel are somehow inherently "bad" while AMD is "good?"

I have to stress that last point. I can't see how one can legitimately claim to be impartial if they would support an AMD controlled API being the dominant one for PC gaming, while not a Nvidia or Intel one.

For record I would prefer either the current DirectX/OpenGL situation. Or AMD, and Nvidia, and Intel develop their own APIs.

That is actually one of the key selling points to Mantle. They can update and integrate new features and technology into Mantle much quicker than the other APIs.
While it is true that future changes to Mantle could have some negative impact on performance when using non-AMD Mantle capable hardware, the fact that those other hardware manufacturers would have access to the SDK and any updates, means they could quickly fix any problems that arise.

This actually shows one reason why Mantle dominance would give AMD an inherent perpetual advantage versus its hardware competitors. AMD would know well in advance and can plan out both the APIs development and it's hardware development (as well as the software side of it's hardware business) compared to competitors. There doesn't even have to be anything nefarious or underhanded involved, as that would just be the natural reality of the situation as you'd expect.

As much as what you are saying is 100% true, I think that what Mantle offers in terms of API competitiveness outweighs potential deliberate vendor-specific gimping, which is already happening with a seemingly neutral API.

With DirectX having an ACTUAL competitor, then we may see Microsoft approach it with more enthusiasm than seeing it as a potential threat to its failing console.

Yes Mantle brings more competition (as it is a competitor) in the markets it was developed to compete with.

Microsoft has an inherent advantage as the PC gaming OS because it controls DirectX which is the current dominant API. So yes Mantle becoming the dominant API could open up more OS choice assuming that it is supported on competing OSes.

At the same time this also shows why it is better for a third party to have control of the dominant API for the GPU market.

Keep in mind I'm discussing from a hypothetical stand point of where some people want Mantle to replace DirectX as the dominant API (by having all other hardware vendors supporting it for example). I really don't see how this will not lead to a less competitive environment for hardware and to the detriment of consumers for gpu hardware.

We can look at this in a grossly simple way to help illustrate things. You're currently complaining about having to use Windows (MS) as the OS for gaming, with Linux and OSX (I guess) being significantly worse options due to MS controlling DirectX. Instead now you'd have to use AMD for your GPU, with Nvidia and Intel (I guess) being significantly worse options due to AMD controlling Mantle.

 

[KazeoHin]

I definitely see your point.

AMD's attitude has made it seem like it's the 'good guy' and would never let this happen, but I'm definitely not mesmerised by that notion. AMD is a business, and thus it would dominate and stab Nvidia and Intel in the back if it had the chance, but it doesn't. So it plays the 'good guy' card. I have no illusions to that, BUT the more I could encourage market competition, the more I will. Nvidia has a HUGE market lead on AMD, and their price/performance reflects their smug, domineering attitude, more competition on the market, having a larger competition, it may have been Nvidia introducing FreeSync in the first place instead of deliberately charging and over-complicating a product that could have been solved by a damn firmware update.

 

[Elios]

i think see AMDs real goal with Mantle and its NOT to make an agnostic API
its to keep there CPU/GPU ecosystem competitive

simply put AMD CAN NOT COMPETE with an Intel/nVidia set up with out any more
AMDs best over clocked as far as it can barely keeps up with an i5 out of the box
let alone what ever Intel has planed

why else make and market an API to boost preformance of low end hardware
and you cant talk your way out that one go read the realworld test
with high end cards and high end CPUs and overclocked CPU NV comes out as fast or faster
the only time Mantle wins is on budget hardware or lower

 

[Relayer]

i think see AMDs real goal with Mantle and its NOT to make an agnostic API
its to keep there CPU/GPU ecosystem competitive

simply put AMD CAN NOT COMPETE with an Intel/nVidia set up with out any more
AMDs best over clocked as far as it can barely keeps up with an i5 out of the box
let alone what ever Intel has planed

why else make and market an API to boost preformance of low end hardware
and you cant talk your way out that one go read the realworld test
with high end cards and high end CPUs and overclocked CPU NV comes out as fast or faster
the only time Mantle wins is on budget hardware or lower

You need to quit repeating this. It's FUD.

 

[Elios]

You need to quit repeating this. It's FUD.

hardly
show me ONE case where an AMD CPU can keep up with an i7 with out overclocking in gaming
and newest nv drivers are faster then mantle to top it off

 

[Relayer]

hardly
show me ONE case where an AMD CPU can keep up with an i7 with out overclocking in gaming
and newest nv drivers are faster then mantle to top it off

we aren't talking AMD vs. Intel CPU's. Only you are trying to obscure the conversation by wanting to include AMD processors. Mantle doesn't care who's processor you use.

AMD vs. nVidia, I already answered that the first time you posted it.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1040913756#post1040913756