RAID 0 Array. . .RIP?

[board2death986]

So I dared tempt the heavens with a Raid 0 array involving 2 500GB Seagate drives for the last year or so for my game installs (so yea nothing completely vital) and I BELIEVE after windows update picked up an updated for the Raid controller I now cannot access the Raid.

Both drives appear in BIOS in the screen to select drive order, and in the boot-up Raid controller screen both drives appear and status is listed as "ok" (or some other word signalling good). When I get into windows what should be 930GB+ drive shows up as a single 479GB drive unformated. Only one of the two drives appear in the drive manager.

So give it to me straight. . . am I just totally screwed? I was hoping to get this array active one more time to copy the contents to a spare 1TB drive I have available, but my hopes aren't high. Any comments or advice are appreciated. And i'm done with Raid 0, it's just not worth the risk (which is why I used it in this case instead of for important backup or system files).

 

[Old Hippie]

You probably got hit with the crappy, unneeded, Promise RAID controller update.

I read about it and didn't fall for the fuck-up.....this time.

I haven't seen an easy fix but if I were you I'd be finding another machine that uses your RAID controller and install the discs there to read/recover the array.

I'm hoping your data is still there but the Promise controller "update" won't read the RAID metadata on the discs.

 

[sub.mesa]

Try Ubuntu Linux recovery method; burn Ubuntu disc and access RAID contents by menu Places->Home and click "..GB Filesystem" on the left. Does that work for you? If so, your files are still there, just inaccessible.

Consider using windows Software RAID instead of Promise fakeRAID drivers, and consider avoiding any PCI card, since virtually every PCI RAID card is utter crap. Old and stinky drivers...

Also consider a backup. With 2TB disks going for under 100 dollars in some cases, you should have a good backup plan. There is no real reason not to with storage becoming cheaper and cheaper.

 

[Tolyngee]

http://www.runtime.org/raid.htm

In case your data's worth $99 to you...

The software will be able to determine whether or not it can find your data before you have to pay for it...

 

[Old Hippie]

Consider using windows Software RAID instead of Promise fakeRAID drivers

I'm sure he didn't mean to install the Promise drivers.

It came thru to everybody (didn't matter if you had any Promise stuff) as a "Windows Recommended Update" and if your system is set to auto update and you didn't look...........

Looks like some systems refused to install the update but others have a major problem.

 

[cditty]

Yeah, I caught and hid that update yesterday when I saw my icon. It has to notify my before it installs anything and I always look...

 

[sub.mesa]

I'm sure he didn't mean to install the Promise drivers.

It came thru to everybody (didn't matter if you had any Promise stuff) as a "Windows Recommended Update" and if your system is set to auto update and you didn't look...........

Looks like some systems refused to install the update but others have a major problem.

I see, but then not using the Promise PCI card in your system and using software RAID instead (and connect them to chipset SATA ports) - might be a better solution. Then you do not rely on Promise drivers at all.

Promise, JMicron, Silicon Image and Adaptec onboard RAID drivers should be regarded as extreme low-quality implementations that can put your data at risk. When using any of these products, a backup becomes pretty much mandatory. It's perfectly reasonable to expect these arrays to fail more often due to failures of the RAID driver, then due to failures with physical disks.

So OP: Just do yourself a service and remove the Promise PCI card if possible; using only real Serial ATA ports from your chipset or PCI-express controller instead. That should give you much more reliable operation than those dirty PCI drivers.

 

[Old Hippie]

Just do yourself a service and remove the Promise PCI card if possible;

Sub...you're missing the point.

He probably has no Promise card but installed the MS update without looking.

Many people installed this update without looking and got screwed because they have NO Promise cards and the OS installed the update anyway.

This was a MS screw-up and many have been effected but some systems refused to install the drivers.

Others, even if they had no Promise products, installed the update and it screwed their systems.

 

[sub.mesa]

Interesting; so you're saying these drivers activate on disks on other controllers? That would be an astonishing blunder that might even lead to dataloss.

Normally, a driver only 'attaches' to specific hardware; not to hardware from other vendors. It should only attach to its own hardware. So normally with a driver installed which cannot find any relevant hardware; it should lay dormant instead. Since this update involves Promise controller getting AHCI capability (finally) it could be that it applied this driver to other AHCI controllers (like the motherboard/chipset onboard SATA) as well, leading to a BSOD.

If you're not using Promise controller for the RAID, then what is your RAID engine? The onboard chipset RAID controller? If so what make?

Regardless of this, if you want to recover the contents of the RAID, then i suggest you try Ubuntu method first; free safe and most of the times it'll detect your array right away.

 

[Old Hippie]

Interesting; so you're saying these drivers activate on disks on other controllers? That would be an astonishing blunder that might even lead to dataloss.

Bingo!

It looks to me that only RAID users were effected.

 

[Tolyngee]

Bingo!

It looks to me that only RAID users were effected.

I wasn't aware of this 'til this thread.

Over the weekend I did a seemingly non-event (changed video cards in a machine, something I do probably twice a year), and my system had trouble coming back up.

When it did, I noticed it installed drivers for something. I assumed this was for the video card, although I hadn't installed the drivers yet.

Reboot, and the array was dead.

Now I understand what happened. Stupid thing is that the machine was just about (the change of video card was the last piece) to become a dedicated file server. The data on that array would have had its own added redundancy within hours. And since HDs are so cheap, I had gotten lazy and hadn't backed-up anything lately to DVD.

Well, I didn't have anything on there that I can't just acquire again, though.

But I am glad to know that whatever happened probably had zero to do with me.

(Funny thing is that I cursed and swore MS like never before, and to find out they truly are the culprit by forcibly installing drivers that don't belong on my machine...)

 

[sub.mesa]

If any are concerned about loss of data on fakeRAID / software RAID / onboard RAID, then know that you likely can recover all your data with:

- commercial windows utility like RAID reconstructor, and dozens of others
- free Ubuntu Linux livecd which can find most arrays within a few clicks
- manually probing Software RAID until it sees a healthy NTFS partition (advanced)

The first two you can do yourself, if you ever need to try the third method, i can do that with FreeBSD. It's a read-only procedure, and requires me to log on remotely via SSH. You can then watch my screen as i figure out your disk configuration. This procedure requires a separate bootable system disk that has freebsd installed; could also be a livecd in which case you do not need an additional system HDD for this procedure. More details upon request.

I highly recommend you try the Ubuntu method first. Just download and burn Ubuntu livecd (32-bit is fine), boot your system with it, click "Try out Ubuntu". Now click the menu Places, select Home. In the window that appears, on the left panel there should be a "..GB Filesystem" you can click on. If you can, this should give you instant access to your data. This all works because Linux applies its own Software RAID, but can only do that if your array is detected by its metadata; which is stored on each member disks' last sector, the metasector. If this is missing, this procedure will not work. In that case, you could try option 3.

Cheers!

 

[Old Hippie]

I wasn't aware of this 'til this thread.

I don't even remember where I first heard about the faulty update but, believe it or not, as of yesterday the MS auto updater was still recommending me to install it.

I'm hoping nobody actually lost data but it'll still be a major PITA.

 

[Tolyngee]

I don't even remember where I first heard about the faulty update but, believe it or not, as of yesterday the MS auto updater was still recommending me to install it.

I'm hoping nobody actually lost data but it'll still be a major PITA.

Well, I had Vista set to not even bother checking for updates...

It just forcibly installed it without even buying me dinner first...

Eh, while I did note it installed something, I'm not sure it was giving me enough information on what it did, or if I even could have successfully told it to un-install that driver before a reboot...

I hate this automated crap. If you make something so that only the ignorant etc can use it, then evenually only the ignorant etc will use it...


Before this just sounds like a useless rant, it's not, as it's gotten me to thinking...

My system was just about to become a dedicated file server. We're talking potentially 40TB on the machine...

If Windows can come along and just decide to install something and corrupt my setup, well, even if the data's still there somehow, it's still admittedly a big PITA...

So the timing on this might have been a message to me, especially since it's just a file server, to finally whip out some flavor of Linux and learn how to use it...

The thing I never liked about Linux is that I work at a place with Linux admins. I once described to all three an intended setup, and asked what version to use. And I got three different responses: not-so-Open Solaris (not open anymore), CentOS and something that had RAID-Z, but I think that was Open Solaris... See, I can't even remember what they even were...

Ignorance can be cured, but it still struck me odd that you can ask three knowledgeable people on the subject and get three different suggestions...

 

[Old Hippie]

if you ever need to try the third method, i can do that with FreeBSD. It's a read-only procedure, and requires me to log on remotely via SSH.

My personal opnion is that's its great for you to share your idle time and knowledge to this forum's members.

However, I feel that many will be reluctant to take advantage of this offer because of the Identity theft issue....doesn't matter whether if it's real or not.

I definately appreciate the gesture but, thank goodness, I don't need it.

 

[sub.mesa]

Yes it does imply trust in me, not only in my abilities but also in my good intentions. I would add though, that negative feedback from such a public offer would undoubtedly make me a very controversial person; and that's not what i want with an interesting upcoming project that would be trusted by many people to store their data. So i would have nothing to gain my abusing my position, and everything to lose. That usually makes the risk of anything going wrong like abuse or theft of information very low.

I've also done this before with many people (well like 15) in the past. They would setup a FreeBSD system, open port 22 and give me the passwords. I login, user launches watch utility and we can begin, documenting each step i'm about to take. I think that's fun, because i like to help people who otherwise would destroy their data thinking its irretrievable; while the data just sits there on your HDDs; it's not gone! It's just inaccessible. I can help with making that accessible, to those who trust me enough for such a procedure.

 

[Old Hippie]

Well, I had Vista set to not even bother checking for updates...

We've all been assuming this was an update problem but I've never had a MS update forced down my throat. You sure the update caused the problem?

to finally whip out some flavor of Linux and learn how to use it...

I'm 58 and learning Linux is wayyy down at the bottom of my "to do" list.

But, for a 40TB storage machine I'd probably be learning Linux because of it's non- commercialized nature.

 

[Old Hippie]

Yes it does imply trust in me, not only in my abilities but also in my good intentions.

You're up-front with no bullshit and I wouldn't have to think twice about your intensions.

However, my confidence in you may not be enough for others to consider opening their machines.

 

[sub.mesa]

Wouldn't FreeNAS (and in the future my Mesa project) be sufficient? If you just want a NAS and access to ZFS, and serve files over the network, this wouldn't require you to learn alot. Just install the thing and set it up via the web-interface.

It does require you to get familiar with ZFS a bit, and that's only a good thing if you want to learn how to exploit its true power, like snapshotting; which can make you an automated incremental backup system fairly easily.

If you have to learn a console based OS or Ubuntu GUI but doing most work in the terminal, then you still would need to learn alot if you're not already familiar with that. I would say it's not a good way to start learning Linux; taking smaller steps might be more appropriate. Using a web-interface is already familiar, all you need is get your mind set on all those terms like RAID-Z, pool, vdev, zvol and those likes. Once you get that in your head, setting it up is easy enough for most people who are at least reasonably familiar with computers in general, which i assume you all are. ;-)

However, my confidence in you may not be enough for others to consider opening their machines.

Very true! But i leave it at their consideration to accept my offer; it's given to anyone who wants that help. If they just want information about other procedures that's fine, too.

But it's incredibly fun to do; as most people have no clue how this all worked since they thought their Promise RAID was tied to the hardware somehow, and Linux just accesses it totally out of that hardware's control and the user can recover all data by copying over to the network. As simple procedure for me it may be, as big relief it can be for these users; some were incredibly happy since they couldn't afford commercial recovery fees while their data was quite precious to them. If it's a small trouble for me then i just love to do such a thing.

 

[Tolyngee]

We've all been assuming this was an update problem but I've never had a MS update forced down my throat. You sure the update caused the problem?

No, I'm not sure at all.

I do know I booted into Windows, it installed some driver that I wasn't expecting it to do, it asked me to reboot so I did, and the array was never accessible again...

If this is coincidence with the Promise story, it's mighty interesting coincidence... Machine ran fine for 18 months, then the array's just poof gone, and a story that could explain it all, along with a driver installing on my machine for no reason right before it all happened?

Interesting coincidence if they're not related at all, no?

 

[Tolyngee]

You're up-front with no bullshit and I wouldn't have to think twice about your intensions.

However, my confidence in you may not be enough for others to consider opening their machines.

For those who would be concerned:

I'd just install Ubuntu on a drive, ask Sub to explain to me how to run some monitoring software like Windows Resource Monitor or something, so I can watch what he's accessing...

If I see him do something I don't like, I unplug the ethernet cable from the machine, and he's instantly disconnected...

Sub: I'm not implying anything about you. I'm just stating it should be fairly easy to monitor what you are doing, and immediately disconnect you if they think you're doing something.

I just wouldn't want to be taking up his time due to my not having a ^$#(*&#(^*(%) backup!!!

(Sorry, I am just mad that this data would have been backed-up sufficiently within hours if the array hadn't died...)

I've already pretty much accepted the loss, but I still may attempt to try and retrieve the data, since it is more than likely still there...

Blowing away data that's retrieveable using fairly simple means would mean that I had just decided to delete it of my own free will... If I realize later I deleted it all and there was something I wish I had, well, ^&^%&$^$&(%^ again!!!


But, either way, and regardless of what the facts are of what happened to my array, it's a learning and thought-provoking opportunity.

I was just about to have all my data go live in a HD backed-up environment. The thoughts this could all go south in the reboot of an OS should make anyone take a second thought to what they are doing.

None of this will be on a hardware RAID though, so that increases the likelihood of recovering your data... (oddly enough...)

 

[sub.mesa]

Sub: I'm not implying anything about you. I'm just stating it should be fairly easy to monitor what you are doing, and immediately disconnect you if they think you're doing something.

Very true.

Though i would argue that if i was really malicious (and good) i could at some moment load a remote script that opens something up the user couldn't detect. And thus the user wouldn't notice me doing anything that he considers to be a threat. Or worse, inject something in his files, which at one time would spread to his main systems.

So there still are risks, but then from my perspective it still would be a considerable risk for unknown gain.

Also, to clear up:
Ubuntu method (requires no login from me): just use the livecd, no installation required. Follow instructions as in my earlier posts.
FreeBSD method (requires login from me): you could use freebsd livecd as well, and meet on IRC to discuss details.

I just wouldn't want to be taking up his time due to my not having a ^$#(*&#(^*(%) backup!!!

Ah that's alright.

Just gives me the opportunity to introduce you to the wonderful world of ZFS.

(Sorry, I am just mad that this data would have been backed-up sufficiently within hours if the array hadn't died...)

That's Murphy; and he is wanted for causing very very bad luck.

 

[Old Hippie]

If this is coincidence with the Promise story, it's mighty interesting coincidence

Sure sounds like MS threw you a boner.

Check this out about the last known good configuration.

 

[Tolyngee]

Sure sounds like MS threw you a boner.

Check this out about the last known good configuration.

In case you're suggesting this as a fix, my array's gone according to the RAID controller.

Invalid disk. It can't see it as a boot disk to even attempt anything anymore.

Booting from my old Vista install on the machine, Vista can see two separate drives from that array: a 596GB drive, and a 1192GB drive.

It was a 1192GB RAID-10. So, it appears the mirror of one of the drives has fallen off and is seen as its own separate drive now.

Eh, I'll guess I'll decide if I want to bother to attempt to get the data off. Problem is, I've already accepted the data loss, I even know better, didn't follow my own back-up beliefs, and want to just accept this as a lesson of sorts.

But the geek in me wants to see what methods can actually potentially access this data again!

 

[Old Hippie]

my array's gone according to the RAID controller.

Bummer!.

I wouldn't be able to stand it and would hafta try to get it back.

 

[Tolyngee]

Bummer!.

I wouldn't be able to stand it and would hafta try to get it back.

Oddly enough, I had just remember this morning I had made notes about what was on that drive for my back-up strategy for it.

So, ~1.2TB of data.

~200GB of it was Steam games. Already transferred over, besides I can just re-download 'em.

So, 1TB of data.

~???GB of games on physical media that I'd have to install anyway. I have hundreds, so the amount I have installed is unknown. So, I'll say zero, when we know that's not accurate.

So, 1TB of data still.

~250GB was a database for a program that a newer version is out. The newer version is not compatible with the old database, so I would have been starting new. The new version is much better than the old (I tried the new one since I don't have my old data anyway), so I would have made the switch anyway.

So, 750GB of data.

150GB of that I already transferred (apparently I had multiple copies of it), and another 100GB is stuff that I can find again over time. If this was important, I would have moved it over before.

So, 500GB of data.

Whatever's left of this 500GB is stuff I can re-acquire. Although I had told myself to at least keep a text file of the directories (I thought I had, dunno where it went), that's all I need to know what I lost. Ripped DVD I already own I can re-rip. Etc.


So, I already moved over critical data, a good amount was games that I still have access to, 1/3rd of it was data that was bound to soon be blown away anyway, and everything left over can eventually be re-acquired.


I'm not losing sleep over what I lost (temporarily). Though it certainly bugged me that I did not follow my own beliefs and have a back-up of this for that window of time. Usually I do, but since I was going to a new file server system and etc etc, I thought I could trust that data on a hardware RAID (that was stable and fine for 18 months) for another 24 hours or so.

I should mention I run my systems 24/7 and rarely reboot. The reason again for this reboot was to switch video cards. (A 5870 is way overkill for a file server) So, even if a reboot offers such opportunity, I rarely even give it that chance.

But I'm not kicking myself too much. A reboot shouldn't be an event that makes one sweat and think twice before doing...

All in all, I didn't have it backed-up though and nothing was of great importance...

I'm certainly not going to bother Sub further just so I can get a directory listing of what was on that drive. I'll figure it out once I realize that I'm missing something...