R520 delayed. Not looking good.

[Skrying]

Well, we see that in the CPU world. The K8, which is a "beefed up K7," (K7 is what, 5-6 years old?) beats the Netburst in EVERY game. The P6, a what, 10 year old core? That too does an admirable job compared to "newer" tech once it got the Banias and Dothan tweaks.

Hehe, just goes to show you why I love AMD, the K7 was a great architecture that just needed a little bit of boost, welcome on die memory control and BAM performance like never before.

Weren't the pipes already there on the R420?

Maybe we'll see something similair with the R520, or maybe we're already seeing it with the 7800GTX? The pipes could have been there to improve yield. This is actually a theory going around about the 7800GTX and a patent Nvidia has about redundecy (sp?). There could be an odd quad on there to improve yields and this could also explain why yields for the 7800GTX are surprisingly good.

 

[BigDaddy85]

Lock this thread. Already one on it.

admin?

 

[trinibwoy]

Well look at the R420, a beefed up R300. Not a whole lot there to tweak, double the pipelines, add some VS's and sky rocket the core and memory speeds, lol. I still think its funny that a 3 year old core design beats a fairly new one in a lot of games.

Why is it funny? Same process. A lot less transistors due to a much smaller featureset. Much higher clocks. Or are you saying that if you stripped the NV40 of its additional features it wouldn't hit R420 clocks, not to mention that each NV40 pipe is better per clock than an R420 pipe. I don't see why you think increasing clock speeds on an existing part is impressive. In that case, you must be very impressed with the NV40's lower clocks, higher featureset and equivalent performance.

I think ATi wanted to get away with only 12 pipes and fairly high clocks, that's why I think the naming system is so messed up on the X800s. They were slightly surpised by the Nv40, but I dont think that much, added another 4 pipes and a 50Mhz core jump and bam you got a fast card to compete with the 6800U.

You make these things sound easy. You don't just "add" 4 pipes. It's not LEGO. R420 had to have been in development for quite some time before NV40 was released.

 

[revenant]

got godwin?

 

[Homer]

http://globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/RTGAM/20050623/wati0623




Looks like we aren't going to see the R520 until Q1 of 2006. Furthermore, after reading about their earnings, this is not looking good for ATI. Looks a lot like 3dfx's situation when they went under.

theres a surprise.

/sarcasm


Actually after more carefully reading of your post I am suprised about their fund situation, but not surprised about the delay of the r520. Half life 2 sound familiar?

 

[FanATIc]

Is it me or does anyone else see that FanATIc is getting extremly upset over his favorite company getting owned?

heheh the r520 is no where in site
Crossfire is currently vaporware.
Getting a Crossfire x850 setup is a waste due to next gen being out already. (but not ati's)

Oh well...only the facts show true.

and even if the r520 comes out. You really think nVidia will stand by and get there ass handed to them? I think not. And everyone here who has a brain knows nVidia has somthing up there sleeve. and is waiting on ati.

oh well thats my opinion

Hey, you, prime1, geekcomputing, and warrio have some really wierd agenda on these boards to slander ATI for no reason.

A. You all know shit about what ATI is doing. Period.
B. You have no idea what consoles do for these companies income.
C. High end retail card market make up a MINORITY of earnings for both companies.
D. I did not run around nor did i think, at the time when Nvidia lost massive market share in 2003 to ATI, that nVidia was going bankrupt. Nor do i post stupid comments like.

"Well the R520 is going to be so superior Nvidia is going to go under and get bought out by Sony so they wont make cards anymore!"

All i am saying is, and yes im sorry but this is true, SLI is not god. The 7800 is not the best thing since sliced bread, and Nvidia is not ruling supreme while ati is going out of business. Maybe in your world, but i tend to live in the realms of reality where SLI and 7800s are meaningless. ATI did a fab jump, they are pioneering the way for a core to last them a few years, and guess what, its alot more dificult then adding DX9.0c support or modifying a core. Im sure you'd love for them to pull an FX, i dont think they are a company to fuck their fans like Nvidia did with that launch though. Good day.

 

[Skrying]

Why is it funny? Same process. A lot less transistors due to a much smaller featureset. Much higher clocks. Or are you saying that if you stripped the NV40 of its additional features it wouldn't hit R420 clocks, not to mention that each NV40 pipe is better per clock than an R420 pipe. I don't see why you think increasing clock speeds on an existing part is impressive. In that case, you must be very impressed with the NV40's lower clocks, higher featureset and equivalent performance.


You make these things sound easy. You don't just "add" 4 pipes. It's not LEGO. R420 had to have been in development for quite some time before NV40 was released.

I think its funny that ATi didnt have to build a new core to compete. Just raise clocks which they could do fairly easy. R420 wasnt in devlopment as much as you think I'm willing to bet. Or at least, it was not the primary focus of ATi at the time. A stop gap if you will to meet Nvidia. I'm impressed by the Nv40.... somewhat. I think the G70 is a finalized version, which shows as it simply does what the Nv40 was hoping to do. Nv40 introduced new features, G70 makes using those new features possible. R300 introduced and made them possible in one sweep, I get the picture of R520 doing the same thing.

 

[revenant]

Hey, you, prime1, geekcomputing, and warrio have some really wierd agenda on these boards to slander ATI for no reason.

A. You all know shit about what ATI is doing. Period.
B. You have no idea what consoles do for these companies income.
C. High end retail card market make up a MINORITY of earnings for both companies.
D. I did not run around nor did i think, at the time when Nvidia lost massive market share in 2003 to ATI, that nVidia was going bankrupt. Nor do i post stupid comments like.

C = QFT

having the fastest card out is more just bragging rights than anything...

 

[Homer]

I think the G70 is a finalized version, which shows as it simply does what the Nv40 was hoping to do. Nv40 introduced new features, G70 makes using those new features possible. R300 introduced and made them possible in one sweep, I get the picture of R520 doing the same thing.

One word for you (fellow) computer geeks that could sum up his post. Intelligence.

 

[robberbaron]

All i am saying is, and yes im sorry but this is true, SLI is not god. The 7800 is not the best thing since sliced bread, and Nvidia is not ruling supreme while ati is going out of business. Maybe in your world, but i tend to live in the realms of reality where SLI and 7800s are meaningless.

Now, I've nothing against ATi. I haven't used their cards, though, since a Rage 128 12mb card back in the mid-late 90's. They just never offered anything that beat the nVidia cards at the price point I was looking at each time I upgraded.

However, to say that the 7800 is meaningless is silly. For the first time, supersampling at high resolutions is playable. Image quality that was only available on prerendered scenes is possible now. I hate to sound like a commercial, but the 7800 has some very impressive tech, and I don't doubt that the R520 does too. I just think your world is just as bad as the nVidia's anti-ATi world.

 

[Steel Chicken]

ATI is not going to go out of business, but they are way behind right now. Will they come back? maybe. They got a long way to go though.

 

[Skrying]

Now, I've nothing against ATi. I haven't used their cards, though, since a Rage 128 12mb card back in the mid-late 90's. They just never offered anything that beat the nVidia cards at the price point I was looking at each time I upgraded.

However, to say that the 7800 is meaningless is silly. For the first time, supersampling at high resolutions is playable. Image quality that was only available on prerendered scenes is possible now. I hate to sound like a commercial, but the 7800 has some very impressive tech, and I don't doubt that the R520 does too. I just think your world is just as bad as the nVidia's anti-ATi world.

So you choose a FX card over the 9xxx cards?

Anyway, no the 7800 is not meaningless but its not the best thing ever either. It still doesnt make AA and HDR possible which is a huge downfall to me and the main reason why I dont feel like I need to update.

 

[robberbaron]

So you choose a FX card over the 9xxx cards?

Anyway, no the 7800 is not meaningless but its not the best thing ever either. It still doesnt make AA and HDR possible which is a huge downfall to me and the main reason why I dont feel like I need to update.

I kept my GeForce3 until I got a 6800NU with my A64 system. There was nothing in the $250-$270 price range other than a 9800XT.

Also, HDR is possible with AA if you use Shaders for the HDR. Even on a 6800.

 

[Homer]

ATI is not going to go out of business, but they are way behind right now. Will they come back? maybe. They got a long way to go though.

**goes and checks ATI's stock availability**

 

[Arklight]

having the fastest card out is more just bragging rights than anything...

I just want to be able to play BF2, LOMAC, and FS2K4 at 1600x1200 4xFSAA and 8xAF.

 

[Skrying]

Only if they are a moron.

I just want to be able to play BF2, LOMAC, and FS2K4 at 1600x1200 4xFSAA and 8xAF.

He was talking about from a company's stand point. They dont sell a ton of the high end cards. Though having the fastest generally makes for a good marketing tool for the mid range parts, which are the ones that actually make you money.

 

[robberbaron]

He was talking about from a company's stand point. They dont sell a ton of the high end cards. Though having the fastest generally makes for a good marketing tool for the mid range parts, which are the ones that actually make you money.

"The FX5200, based on the exciting technology driving the FX5950 Ultra!"

 

[Arklight]

He was talking about from a company's stand point. They dont sell a ton of the high end cards. Though having the fastest generally makes for a good marketing tool for the mid range parts, which are the ones that actually make you money.

Ahh, ic. My apologies to Revenent then.

I agree. If you have the fastest card, then the not-so-informed may believe everything you have is better....and we all know that's a load of HS.

 

[Skrying]

"The FX5200, based on the exciting technology driving the FX5950 Ultra!"

Yep! Lol, I remember whenever the low ends came out for the FX cards, I got a sudden surge of people asking for them in their systems as an upgrade from their Geforce 4s. Bah that was a mess trying to explain.....

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

The pipes could have been there to improve yield. This is actually a theory going around about the 7800GTX and a patent Nvidia has about redundecy (sp?). There could be an odd quad on there to improve yields and this could also explain why yields for the 7800GTX are surprisingly good.

maybe, but then you have to consider, is the extra wafer space (and resultant drop of gpu cores per wafer to start off) from that redundant quad worth the higher yeilds?

 

[Skrying]

maybe, but then you have to consider, is the extra wafer space (and resultant drop of gpu cores per wafer to start off) from that redundant quad worth the higher yeilds?

To avoid another paper launch then I kinda think it is. Also, it might not even be a whole quad, just a few "spare" pipelines. I'm sure we could dig up a patent on a technology that could allow this possibly. Hehe, it was just an off shot theory.

 

[revenant]

He was talking about from a company's stand point. They dont sell a ton of the high end cards. Though having the fastest generally makes for a good marketing tool for the mid range parts, which are the ones that actually make you money.

exactamundo!

 

[revenant]

maybe, but then you have to consider, is the extra wafer space (and resultant drop of gpu cores per wafer to start off) from that redundant quad worth the higher yeilds?

That is a good question... and I am guessing the answer to that as being, yes, it is worth it... but only if that is what they are indeed doing to enable thier high stable yields of the 7800 gpus... interesting idea either way. like tossing the crust from your bread...

 

[chrisf6969]

To avoid another paper launch then I kinda think it is. Also, it might not even be a whole quad, just a few "spare" pipelines. I'm sure we could dig up a patent on a technology that could allow this possibly. Hehe, it was just an off shot theory.

ATI, Nvidia, Intel, AMD, etc... all have been doing this for years. No need to look up patents. Chips almost always have some extra lines of cache, and if enough they don't have enough working cache for the mainstream chip (P4 or Athlon) they zap a bunch of the cache off and sell it as a low end (celeron, sempron)

Nvidia has done it in the past with the 6800 GT and 6800nu (just disable a quad)
And I THINK the first reference 6200's were 6600's with disable pipes.

ATI did it with the 9700 and 9500's, etc....

However, I don't think Nvidia is holding back a quad. I think they're just holding back the clock speeds. They probably have the voltage low and are clocking the 7800 GTX's conservatively compared to what they can do.

Considering the 6600's made on the .11 process hit 500+Mhz easily and the PS3 GPU (same basic chip) is supposed to be 550Mhz, I think Nvidia is holding out the 7800 Ultra until r520 hits the street. Then BAM, Nvidia releases 7800 Ultra at 550Mhz. Then ATI releases an extreme vaporware edition (Platinum Edition). And the Nvidia releases their vaporware edition the 7800 Ultra Extreme at 575-600Mhz, etc...

 

[Skrying]

A 6600GT is not nearly as complex as a G70 core, no where near it even. You also forgot the RSX is going to be a .90nm part too. Plus a higher core would only help a little bit, the card is already extremely bandwidth straved.

 

[PRIME1]

Hey, you, prime1, geekcomputing, and warrio have some really wierd agenda on these boards to slander ATI for no reason.

A. You all know shit about what ATI is doing. Period.
B. You have no idea what consoles do for these companies income.
C. High end retail card market make up a MINORITY of earnings for both companies.
D. I did not run around nor did i think, at the time when Nvidia lost massive market share in 2003 to ATI, that nVidia was going bankrupt. Nor do i post stupid comments like.

"Well the R520 is going to be so superior Nvidia is going to go under and get bought out by Sony so they wont make cards anymore!"

All i am saying is, and yes im sorry but this is true, SLI is not god. The 7800 is not the best thing since sliced bread, and Nvidia is not ruling supreme while ati is going out of business. Maybe in your world, but i tend to live in the realms of reality where SLI and 7800s are meaningless. ATI did a fab jump, they are pioneering the way for a core to last them a few years, and guess what, its alot more dificult then adding DX9.0c support or modifying a core. Im sure you'd love for them to pull an FX, i dont think they are a company to fuck their fans like Nvidia did with that launch though. Good day.

What color is the sky in your world?

A.) Since you seem to have insider information from being on the ATI board of directors maybe you could let us in on your secret info.
B.) Also could you PM me the signed document between ATI and MS that shows the billions that ATI is getting.
C.) High end is part of both companies image and when they can't put up they have to shut up.
D.) Your numbers are as fictitious as a retail available R520.

If SLI was not a big deal ATI would have never paper launched crossfire. If the 7800 was meaningless then the R520 is completely worthless as it's only bringing out features that NVIDIA brought out in it's last gen card over a year ago.

ATI is trumpeting it's PS3.0 support and HDR....wow welcome to last year.

Please add some facts to your next post.

 

[FanATIc]

What color is the sky in your world?

A.) Since you seem to have insider information from being on the ATI board of directors maybe you could let us in on your secret info.
B.) Also could you PM me the signed document between ATI and MS that shows the billions that ATI is getting.
C.) High end is part of both companies image and when they can't put up they have to shut up.
D.) Your numbers are as fictitious as a retail available R520.

If SLI was not a big deal ATI would have never paper launched crossfire. If the 7800 was meaningless then the R520 is completely worthless as it's only bringing out features that NVIDIA brought out in it's last gen card over a year ago.

ATI is trumpeting it's PS3.0 support and HDR....wow welcome to last year.

Please add some facts to your next post.

Let me try to understand this. You come in here, make bold and baseless idiotic comments basically hinting ATI is going down the toilet, then you request that i must give you facts to prove your idiotic statements wrong? Get your head out of your ass.

 

[PRIME1]

Let me try to understand this. You come in here, make bold and baseless idiotic comments basically hinting ATI is going down the toilet, then you request that i must give you facts to prove your idiotic statements wrong? Get your head out of your ass.

FACT. ATI's next gen card and crossfire are still not here.

FACT. ATI just posted a financial loss in the most recent quarter.

FACT. Both of these are bad.

I never said that ATI will soon die. I'm just saying that neither of these are good for the company. I don't want ATI to fail. The computer market needs competition. However don't walk into a thread that talks about a delay in their product and expect people to believe that shit smells like flowers.

 

[BullseyeBob]

I don't want ATI to fail.

I'm calling BS on that one.

 

[Skrying]

I'm calling BS on that one.

Haha, me too!

 

[MastA]

Predictions of doom based on facts are part of a discussion on recent ATI troubles. Your ignorant response only shows your true colors.

ROFL!!!

 

[trinibwoy]

I think its funny that ATi didnt have to build a new core to compete. Just raise clocks which they could do fairly easy. R420 wasnt in devlopment as much as you think I'm willing to bet. Or at least, it was not the primary focus of ATi at the time. A stop gap if you will to meet Nvidia. I'm impressed by the Nv40.... somewhat. I think the G70 is a finalized version, which shows as it simply does what the Nv40 was hoping to do. Nv40 introduced new features, G70 makes using those new features possible. R300 introduced and made them possible in one sweep, I get the picture of R520 doing the same thing.

You are more impressed by an overclocked PS2.0 part that doesn't offer significant performance (or any in the case of cards below the XT) over a full FP32, PS3.0, HDR supporting part? The reason the R420 "competes" is because the majority of games only require PS2.0 support. Not only that, but you seem to define "compete" merely in terms of framerate. What about leadership? Feature support? Nvidia took the risk and is pushing the industry forward and ATi is happy to ride along. How do you think HDR on UT2007 is being developed? I am truly baffled by your perspective. But to each their own.

 

[ApaThy_NeXT2]

If you personally ask me I could give a rats ass why ATI(or Nvidia for that matter) are having this or that problem. Why this is delayed due to them doing this or because of a console or some shit like that. As someone else pointed out its their problem not mine.

WTF are we their mommies or something? Just bring your card out already if you have it on the market I might buy it and if not then loose for you.

 

[Skrying]

You are more impressed by an overclocked PS2.0 part that doesn't offer significant performance (or any in the case of cards below the XT) over a full FP32, PS3.0, HDR supporting part? The reason the R420 "competes" is because the majority of games only require PS2.0 support. Not only that, but you seem to define "compete" merely in terms of framerate. What about leadership? Feature support? Nvidia took the risk and is pushing the industry forward and ATi is happy to ride along. How do you think HDR on UT2007 is being developed? I am truly baffled by your perspective. But to each their own.

Lets see, a 3 year old core that keeps up, yes I'm impressed.

You also forget, PS2.0 can do EVERTHING, and I'll repeat again, EVERYTHING PS3.0 can do. Its simply a different way of coding it.

Nvidia's card has shown time and time again that Nv40 can not and will not be able to run the effects it made possible. Now, by what I mean possible is able to do. Or in the case of Nv40, sure they run without issues by its slow as hell and at a lower resolution.

G70 finally has brought those features to a point where they run decently. Though I still havent seen real Farcry HDR scores, only SP:CTs.

Oh, should I mention the way they're doing it, no support for playable AA with HDR. So no only do I have to lower the resolution, get a slower FPS, but I also have to deal with the fact that I lose even more IQ from dropping AA with an NV40 chip. Thanks but no thanks, I like my AA more, and I like my high resolution more.

G70, IMO, is what the Nv40 should have been. Instead we had to wait a year and a half to get playable HDR, but still no AA support with it. Because guess what, HDR and SSAA is not a pretty site, its like a slideshow.

So, yes I'm impressed that the R300 core, now 3 years old, in the same basic design except for more pipelines and a higher core speed and memory speed, can still keep up with the Nv40. What's wrong with that?

I'm sorry if I'm the kind of person who enjoys being able to use all the features of my graphics card at once. I dont like trading something for another thing because in the end it creates an unbalanced image to me and I think this love/hate relationship with it.

I'm glad G70 is here, now some people can actually enjoy what the Nv40 should have been. But its a little to late to finally show us features that were suppose to be here a year and a half ago.

 

[PRIME1]

Lets see, a 3 year old core that keeps up, yes I'm impressed.

You also forget, PS2.0 can do EVERTHING, and I'll repeat again, EVERYTHING PS3.0 can do. Its simply a different way of coding it.

Nvidia's card has shown time and time again that Nv40 can not and will not be able to run the effects it made possible. Now, by what I mean possible is able to do. Or in the case of Nv40, sure they run without issues by its slow as hell and at a lower resolution. .

Go overclock your 486....if that impresses you

Can PS2.0 have a shader length above 256? NO, Dynamic Branching NO, Shader anti-aliasing NO, Vertex Textures NO, Instancing Support NO. That's a lot of NO's. So I would call BS on your false claim
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winhec/partners/shadermodel30_NVIDIA.mspx

I was able to run SM3.0 in Far Cry. I was able to run HDR in Far Cry. My monitor does not support 1600x1200 however it did run and it looked good, so I don't know what system you were running it on.

 

[Skrying]

Go overclock your 486....if that impresses you

Can PS2.0 have a shader length above 256? NO, Dynamic Branching NO, Shader anti-aliasing NO, Vertex Textures NO, Instancing Support NO. That's a lot of NO's. So I would call BS on your false claim
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winhec/partners/shadermodel30_NVIDIA.mspx

I was able to run SM3.0 in Far Cry. I was able to run HDR in Far Cry. My monitor does not support 1600x1200 however it did run and it looked good, so I don't know what system you were running it on.

Can all of those be done by simply executing multiple lines of SM2.0.... YES!

What resolution did you run it at and on what card? I'd really like to know. I'd also like to know your FPS. My 6800nu, unlocked and OC'd to 401Mhz core and 850Mhz memory surly cant do it at even 1024x768 without crying for its dear life during actual fights.

 

[illgiveumorality]

I'm calling BS on that one.

I know I'm late but I am too.

Ati's cards can to instancing, the option is right in catalyst control center.

 

[FanATIc]

FACT. ATI's next gen card and crossfire are still not here.

FACT. ATI just posted a financial loss in the most recent quarter.

FACT. Both of these are bad.

I never said that ATI will soon die. I'm just saying that neither of these are good for the company. I don't want ATI to fail. The computer market needs competition. However don't walk into a thread that talks about a delay in their product and expect people to believe that shit smells like flowers.

Did you see an official launch date placed by ATI for the R520? Hey lets open it up, did anyone see ATI post an official launch date? Nope. So stfu with this delay bullshit. You simply cannot delay something unless it had a specific goal or deadline to meet, ATI promised nothing, therefore they have not delayed a product. I dont know if you realized this jeeves but there isnt even official clock speeds released, or even a card name, let alone ATI acknowledging that such a card exists, which they have not. You are acting like such an ignoramous, as if they are sitting on their hands.

5 points to you for ignoring all my other points and arguing with a ghost.

 

[PRIME1]

Did you see an official launch date placed by ATI for the R520? Hey lets open it up, did anyone see ATI post an official launch date? Nope. So stfu with this delay bullshit. You simply cannot delay something unless it had a specific goal or deadline to meet, ATI promised nothing, therefore they have not delayed a product. I dont know if you realized this jeeves but there isnt even official clock speeds released, or even a card name, let alone ATI acknowledging the core exists, which they have not. You are acting like such an ignoramous, as if they are sitting on their hands.

5 points to you for ignoring all my other points and arguing with a ghost.

I did not start this thread nor did I quote a release date. My mention of a delay is in reference to them lagging behind the competition. And if ATI is not acknowledging that the core exists then why do you keep mentioning it? You have all the witty responses of a 4 year old and not even 1 worthwhile fact based answer.

Can all of those be done by simply executing multiple lines of SM2.0.... YES!

If it does not support those features it can not do anything with them. Read the link. The only thing it could maybe do with multiple executions is extend the shader length but that would bring it down to 1fps kind of like running a moped at NASCAR, sure it will make it around the track but it's not the same thing.

 

[CrimandEvil]

What color is the sky in your world?

Evidently it's a nice shade of Red.

FACT. ATI's next gen card and crossfire are still not here.

FACT. ATI just posted a financial loss in the most recent quarter.

FACT. Both of these are bad.

So? None of that means ATI is going down the crapper espcially considering the very lurcative deal they have in the Xbox2 (I refuse to use it's shitty name) and really now we all know the real money isn't in the highend enthusiast market it's in the OEM system builders and ATI has a pretty good hand in that.

To put it simply NV just has the better enthusiast cards right now but that anything is possible in six months. Who really knows, ATI could (finally) launch the R520 and it could just be a steaming pile of crap.

Personally I think this is ATI's "NV30."