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R520 delayed. Not looking good.

FanATIc said:
Did you see an official launch date placed by ATI for the R520? Hey lets open it up, did anyone see ATI post an official launch date? Nope. So stfu with this delay bullshit. You simply cannot delay something unless it had a specific goal or deadline to meet, ATI promised nothing, therefore they have not delayed a product. I dont know if you realized this jeeves but there isnt even official clock speeds released, or even a card name, let alone ATI acknowledging that such a card exists, which they have not. You are acting like such an ignoramous, as if they are sitting on their hands.

5 points to you for ignoring all my other points and arguing with a ghost.
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Apparently you didn't read the article:

The company said on a conference call that its new graphics chip, the R520, is delayed.
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Between you and ATi...I'll go with ATi...you know, the people actually making the chip?

R520 is delayed...it's a fact...I know it hurts...but seriously...just deal with it...you'll feel better...let the anger out...
 
CrimandEvil said:
Personally I think this is ATI's "NV30."
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This is entirely possible...if you think about it, R520 has been in development for so long that they may need to do some major retooling of the core to compensate for the fact that all PS3.0 games are now tuned for nVidia's architecture, not theirs...much like what happened with NV30...by the time it got out...all PS2.0 games were doing FP24 instead of FP32...and that killed NV30...

Whatever the case, ATi is a healthy company...all this talk of them going under is just silly...they might take it in the pants for a generation or two...but their OEM contracts and lower end models will be more than enough to sustain them till they get their act together again...
 
^eMpTy^ said:
This is entirely possible...if you think about it, R520 has been in development for so long that they may need to do some major retooling of the core to compensate for the fact that all PS3.0 games are now tuned for nVidia's architecture, not theirs...much like what happened with NV30...by the time it got out...all PS2.0 games were doing FP24 instead of FP32...and that killed NV30...

Whatever the case, ATi is a healthy company...all this talk of them going under is just silly...they might take it in the pants for a generation or two...but their OEM contracts and lower end models will be more than enough to sustain them till they get their act together again...
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Are you sure PS 3.0 games are tuned for nVidia's acrhitecture? Or is nVidia's architecture tuned for PS 3.0 games? I recall reading something which said nVidia picked hundreds (or thousands) of shaders to be optimized on their latest hardware.
 
Isn't this old newz? Wasn't it announced last month that ATI would release it in the fall?
 
jon_k said:
http://globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/RTGAM/20050623/wati0623




Looks like we aren't going to see the R520 until Q1 of 2006. Furthermore, after reading about their earnings, this is not looking good for ATI. Looks a lot like 3dfx's situation when they went under.
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ATi is a larger company than 3DFX was. ATi is pretty big in OEM channels and I believe they can survive. They did it for years competing against nVidia, 3DFX, S3 and other companies during the late 90's. I wouldn't worry about them. They survived having cards with laughable gaming performance and they'll survive being one step behind nVidia. Keep in mind that up until the release of the Radeon 8500, ATi was several steps behind nVidia and their best efforts were underwhelming to say the least.

Intel actually owns more of the video card market than anyone due to the integration into the chipsets. So I wouldn't worry about ATi. You don't have to have the fastest card on the market to be a successful company. ATi has survived worse than this.
 
No kidding, I think a lot of people fail to realize that ATi has been around longer than Nvidia, and possibly just or even older than 3DFX.

Hmmm, what if ATi released the R520 on their 20th aniversary? :eek:
 
jon_k said:
Looks a lot like 3dfx's situation when they went under.
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How? ATI is in no trouble financially, having a few bad quarters doesn't matter if they've had a good 4-5 years of growth behind them
 
wow, I just read that entire thread, and both sides have made some pretty good arguments. ATi is at a stage right now where they're getting owned, both in technological development, and market share of the discreet graphics sector with nvidia chopping at the high end, and intel chopping at the low end (on-board galore on 90% of OEM computers). The necessity for a halo card is astounding as a few of you have mentioned, and ATi really can't make a name for themselves when the 7800 GTX wins all benchmarks hands down and introduces new technology. This whole bloody thread was started because ATi is in a rebounding situation and all the Nvidia f_Anboys wanted to rub it in. Hey you know what this reminds me of, the 9700 pro launch, only inversed. Will ATi go bankrupt? Hell no, however, one could say that Nvidia is redeeming a lot of the market share they lost from the Radeon series. I remember back in the day when you only bought an ATi card because you had to, that's surely changed. Oh and fanATIc, seriously buddy, take that 2 foot rod out of your ass, sheesh, you're defending ATi to the death and aren't making a lot of good arguments.

EDIT: I have a built by ATi Radeon X850 XT PE. So please, don't even say I love Nvidia; however, with the 7800 series, they might have won me back.
 
Yeah, I'm no phan boy by ANY extent. Kind of like how I hate George Bush, and yet I am not a diehard democrat. I choose which candidate, video card, cpu, console, etc. is best based on facts, numbers, and what I like the looks of best (not aesthetically looks, but rather my point of view).
 
Skrying said:
No kidding, I think a lot of people fail to realize that ATi has been around longer than Nvidia, and possibly just or even older than 3DFX.

Hmmm, what if ATi released the R520 on their 20th aniversary? :eek:
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lol...ATi is significantly older than both. 3dfx came in 1996, nvidia in 1997, ati was like 1987 I think...

ATi isn't going anywhere...that much I'm sure of...
 
I dont know where the confused thought that Nvidia has the most advanced techonology, as they certainlly will not come the end of this year. The Xenos is light years ahead of anything the 7800GTX or even R520 will offer. Hell, the Xenos is light years ahead of even the RSX which wont be here till 2006.

If you want to see tomorrow's technologies now I suggest you do some reading about the Xenos, Beyond3Ds article is probably the best on the web about it, but its heavily technical: http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/xenos/

The removal of seperate units for doing pixel and vertex work units is the next major step for graphics. SM3.0 is the stop gap between then and now. SM4.0/DirectX Next/WGF2.0 will be the basis for this. And the Xenos is only a few steps away from being fully WGF2.0 compliant. Its pretty impressive to see that technology delivered now instead of a year and a half from now.

I dont ever see ATi becoming the second tier graphics card company they once were. They are a top dog and it can be argued the top dog for add-on based graphics. Nvidia and them are extremely close and the graphics card market is the closest one possibly. To the casual user many thing effect their buying decision. Consoles that say "Powered by ATi" or "Powered by Nvidia" on them are actually really big sellers for the companies, not to mention checks from giant companies such as Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo.

It'll be interesting in the next 6 months on what happens. What we know we'll at least get is this: R520 will come out, we'll see what Xbox 360 really has, we might see an R520 counter from Nvidia, we might now. I see this generation turning into a bloody battle before Xmas.
 
Noodle Boy said:
Are you sure PS 3.0 games are tuned for nVidia's acrhitecture? Or is nVidia's architecture tuned for PS 3.0 games? I recall reading something which said nVidia picked hundreds (or thousands) of shaders to be optimized on their latest hardware.
Click to expand...

I think that remark has been taken out of context...I believe the original quote was about how the architectural tweaks in G70 were based on how shaders are being used in thousands of games...or something to that effect...not sure though...
 
This is good news for me as I now have plenty of time to play with my 7800GTX! :cool:
 
^eMpTy^ said:
I think that remark has been taken out of context...I believe the original quote was about how the architectural tweaks in G70 were based on how shaders are being used in thousands of games...or something to that effect...not sure though...
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Didnt Nvidia design the Nv40 core to be pretty much exact to the SM3.0 needs? I dont know if there was as much room for movement within the Sm3.0 as there are for SM2.0.

Also, did you ever find out a clear number on how large the pipelines and vertex shaders are for the G70?
 
Skrying said:
I dont know where the confused thought that Nvidia has the most advanced techonology, as they certainlly will not come the end of this year. The Xenos is light years ahead of anything the 7800GTX or even R520 will offer. Hell, the Xenos is light years ahead of even the RSX which wont be here till 2006
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That has got to be the most blatant fan boi comment of this entire thread. Card X is not advanced at least it won't be in 6 months. Well no shit sherlock nothing now will be advanced in the future. And it's nice that you have already played both the Xbox2 and the PS3 and can use whatever yardstick that measures in light years to come up with that statement.

LOL

Pure comedy. You only make my statements that much stronger with comments like that.

[fan-boi_voice]You just wait the R520 is going to be soooo advanced because it will have features that came out over a year ago [/fan-boi_voice]....too funny.
 
Skrying said:
I dont know where the confused thought that Nvidia has the most advanced techonology, as they certainlly will not come the end of this year. The Xenos is light years ahead of anything the 7800GTX or even R520 will offer. Hell, the Xenos is light years ahead of even the RSX which wont be here till 2006.

If you want to see tomorrow's technologies now I suggest you do some reading about the Xenos, Beyond3Ds article is probably the best on the web about it, but its heavily technical: http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/xenos/

The removal of seperate units for doing pixel and vertex work units is the next major step for graphics. SM3.0 is the stop gap between then and now. SM4.0/DirectX Next/WGF2.0 will be the basis for this. And the Xenos is only a few steps away from being fully WGF2.0 compliant. Its pretty impressive to see that technology delivered now instead of a year and a half from now.

I dont ever see ATi becoming the second tier graphics card company they once were. They are a top dog and it can be argued the top dog for add-on based graphics. Nvidia and them are extremely close and the graphics card market is the closest one possibly. To the casual user many thing effect their buying decision. Consoles that say "Powered by ATi" or "Powered by Nvidia" on them are actually really big sellers for the companies, not to mention checks from giant companies such as Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo.

It'll be interesting in the next 6 months on what happens. What we know we'll at least get is this: R520 will come out, we'll see what Xbox 360 really has, we might see an R520 counter from Nvidia, we might now. I see this generation turning into a bloody battle before Xmas.
Click to expand...

well if you want to look at it that way...the GeForce FX 5800 is more "advanced" than an x850xtpe...specs aren't everything...

there are a lot of things about Xenos that only make sense on a console...so comparing Xenos to G70 is like comparing apples and oranges...G70 is built to a completley different spec for use in a completely different environment...and in that environment (The PC), it's the hands down leader...

you can't deny that in the PC space nvidia is the technological leader...and pretty much always has been with the exception of maybe the Radeon 8500 vs GeForce 3...
 
Skrying said:
Didnt Nvidia design the Nv40 core to be pretty much exact to the SM3.0 needs? I dont know if there was as much room for movement within the Sm3.0 as there are for SM2.0.

Also, did you ever find out a clear number on how large the pipelines and vertex shaders are for the G70?
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No i never figured it out...*shrug*

The SM3.0 spec, like any spec, tells only what the card has to do in response to an API call...it doesn't say how to do it...so there is a lot of room to make things happen faster or slower based on the layout of pipelines...different architectures will have different strengths and weaknesses...and all current SM3.0 games are tuned to take advantage of NV40s strong points, and avoid the weak ones...

So if R520 is much different, it's at a bit of a disadvantage because if it does something slow that nvidia did fast...it will take a hit...and if it does something really fast that NV40 did slow, that won't get taken advantage of until the game is optimized for that hardware...
 
Skrying said:
Lets see, a 3 year old core that keeps up, yes I'm impressed.
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You seem to be missing my point. It's "easier" for a 3 year old core to keep up on a 3 year old API. How can you be more impressed by that than by a new core that not only provides excellent performance on that old API but pushes the limits on new technologies as well. You are impressed by a 2004 PS2.0 card that is basically an overclocked 2002 PS2.0 card because it is fast in PS2.0. But you're not impressed by a PS3.0 card that is just as fast in PS2.0 and does everything the old card can, yet on top of that provides additional features that are driving game development into the future. Amazing!!
 
trinibwoy said:
You seem to be missing my point. It's "easier" for a 3 year old core to keep up on a 3 year old API. How can you be more impressed by that than by a new core that not only provides excellent performance on that old API but pushes the limits on new technologies as well. You are impressed by a 2004 PS2.0 card that is basically an overclocked 2002 PS2.0 card because it is fast in PS2.0. But you're not impressed by a PS3.0 card that is just as fast in PS2.0 and does everything the old card can, yet on top of that provides additional features that are driving game development into the future. Amazing!!
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I totally agree... I really don't care for this "it's so amazing because it lasted this long" argument...

Look at the clock speed necessary to beat the 6800s...the x800xtpe had to be 120Mhz faster to reach parity with a 6800Ultra...and yeah that's fine and dandy, until you consider what that clock speed did to their yields and we ended up with the phantom edition...

Overclocking an old core to beat a new core is just plain lame...ATi hasn't innovated a damn thing since 2002...

So no, it's NOT cool that they stayed with the same core so long...that's how you get behind in the graphics business...and that's what just happened...in case you weren't paying attention, ATi has been getting thier ass kicked because they decided to stick with a 3 year old architecture and just shoot for higher clock speeds...
 
^eMpTy^ said:
I totally agree... I really don't care for this "it's so amazing because it lasted this long" argument...
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What is amazing about R300 and derivatives is how far ahead of its time (in comparison to the competition) it was in terms of the PS2.0 DX9 feature-set. But it has not improved on that feature-set in three years. It was amazing then. It isn't now.
 
^eMpTy^ said:
I totally agree... I really don't care for this "it's so amazing because it lasted this long" argument...

Look at the clock speed necessary to beat the 6800s...the x800xtpe had to be 120Mhz faster to reach parity with a 6800Ultra...and yeah that's fine and dandy, until you consider what that clock speed did to their yields and we ended up with the phantom edition...

Overclocking an old core to beat a new core is just plain lame...ATi hasn't innovated a damn thing since 2002...

So no, it's NOT cool that they stayed with the same core so long...that's how you get behind in the graphics business...and that's what just happened...in case you weren't paying attention, ATi has been getting thier ass kicked because they decided to stick with a 3 year old architecture and just shoot for higher clock speeds...
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quoted for truth!!! man finally someone who i agree one!! my point of view as well^ they are still lagging up in OpenGL as well ahhhh ATi no wonder i went back to nvidia after the 6800GT came out when i had my 9800pro
 
Sir-Fragalot said:
ATi is a larger company than 3DFX was. ATi is pretty big in OEM channels and I believe they can survive. They did it for years competing against nVidia, 3DFX, S3 and other companies during the late 90's. I wouldn't worry about them. They survived having cards with laughable gaming performance and they'll survive being one step behind nVidia. Keep in mind that up until the release of the Radeon 8500, ATi was several steps behind nVidia and their best efforts were underwhelming to say the least.

Intel actually owns more of the video card market than anyone due to the integration into the chipsets. So I wouldn't worry about ATi. You don't have to have the fastest card on the market to be a successful company. ATi has survived worse than this.
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OMG!!!! You can't bring your common sense and practical reasoning skills in here! This is flame-only thread!

/QFT
 
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