Quadro cards

[RobertM]

The Quadro card has been highly recommended for the work I intend to put it to. That is, digital photography involving large composite files, some approaoching a gig in size, and I'll be "making" games, using 3D Max, Maya and some of the gaming editors, mainly UnrealED. I know that the high-end gaming cards (8800) will do a great job rendering 3d construction, but the system requirements are very heavy for a build and I see that situation increasing. Each new generation of the editors tend to show more complexity and I am hoping for a video card that will handle the ever increasing workload for as long into the future as possible.
The cost for the higher end Quadro cards is steep, but whether or not the price is reasonable, these cards appear to offer the goods for specific applications. The techs I have spoken with have all recommended these cards. Sure, I'd rather purchase an 8800GTX at $800.00 than a Quadro at 2, 3 or 4 X's that price, but I'm not convinced I'll have the right tool for the job. I've posted here hoping for some info as to why these cards are not referred to as often as the "gaming cards", and to better understand what the Quadro's performance is like for 2D.
I would also bet a quadro can play a game just fine too....unless I'm concerned about winning the Unreal Tournament.
If you have experience running a Quadro 3500, 4500 etc.I'm wondering how you find it handles the basics of 2D video display (colour/contrast etc, digital photography) as well as it's gaming performance.

Thanks!!!

RobertM

(This was also posted into a thread in the Hot Deals forum, adding to a discussion about Quadro pricing and subsequent value.)

 

[leSLIe]

well the Quadro core is basically a GeForce core with some features turned off (in-die)
those professional CAD cards are not good for gaming, u won´t get the same performance as it´s GeForce counterpart

 

[ND40oz]

well the Quadro core is basically a GeForce core with some features turned off (in-die)
those professional CAD cards are not good for gaming, u won´t get the same performance as it´s GeForce counterpart

You'll get almost identical performance, just because the drivers aren't "optimized" for gaming, doesn't mean that they're inherently hindered. BF2, BF2142 and COH all run great with my 4500s driving my 2407. Also, the geforce is the one that has features "turned off" either through the bios (6800 series) or in die (7800 series), not the quadro. What they will be better at is openGL apps and things like 3d modeling and CAD apps. Another thing to remember is the quadro's drivers are certified for certain applications, that's where some of the cost comes into play.

 

[leSLIe]

the geforce is the one that has features "turned off" either through the bios (6800 series) or in die (7800 series), not the quadro.

indeedy my bad

 

[RobertM]

Thanks guys!!
ND, is there a Quadro card you recommend in terms of a balance between features set and cost? There seems to be several versions for instance of the 4500. The Ultra high end range appeals, but the sticker price is high. The 384 bit 4600 (67.2 GB/sec)...$$$$. I'm looking at the 4500 workstation card, 512,( 34.6 GB/sec) for $1964.92. That's a lot more than I wanted to spend. Perhaps the 3450 256mb (27.2 GB/sec) for $1150.00 would suffice.
I must purchase in Canada which I'm sure puts the cost up even higher.

 

[Jinto]

I think the ATI X1900XT maybe even later cards can be softmodded to a FireGL. That would be cheaper and will offer better gaming performance.

 

[ND40oz]

I'd go 3500 over the 3450 for only a bit more. Of course if you're willing to take a chance on Ebay, you can probably get it at half that price. Here's a good comparison chart from nVidia on how the perform in different apps. It really depends on what you are going to be using it for. What application are you going to be using mainly?

 

[Sr7]

www.nvidia.com/object/quadro_geforce.html

Google is your friend.

 

[jawpaul]

I run the FX3500 in the rig in my signature. I choose it because I do a large amount of work in Avid Express Pro, and Adobe After Effects; and the card was certified.
Check out the refurbed Dell workstations for some good deals. I got my system (minus the 3 x 500gb drives, and the 2405) for under $1500 with a three year warranty and shipping.
If anything buy the system, swap graphics cards, ebay the system.

John

 

[RobertM]

Lix,

I am aware of the softmoding option, but don't know anything about it. I'll look further into it.
Thanks!!

=================================================================

ND,

I have looked at the spects and yes, the 3500 looks to be a better way to go. Ebay...I would be very concerned about buying such a fragile and expensive piece of equipment, but it would be nice to save the $. I purchased a card once from ebay (7900) but that turned out to be a local pickup. I'll check the auction and see.
I'll be using Maya and 3DMAX as well as the Unreal Editor, and of course, Photoshop and Painter.
BTW, I was wanting to ask your opinion. I'll be building wioth the Q6700 Quad, and am leaning towards the new Asus P5NT WS mobo. Do you see any issues with that using a Quadro? Thanks again for your input...appreciated!!!
=================================================================
Thanks SR7 !!

=================================================================

John,

That's a great idea!! I think there may be an outlet nearby and I will definitely check out the possibility. Thanks!!!

 

[ND40oz]

Robert, if you don't already have the components for your build and aren't just buying a video card, I would also recommend checking out the precision workstations at the Dell outlet. I use a 690 as my current machine, but if you don't want to go dual processor, you can always go with a 390. Dell will certify the workstations for apps and you can call them for support if you have problems with things like Maya. I would imagine that the Asus board is good, but I haven't really heard much on it, the 975x WS boards are some of the best intel chipset based boards.

 

[RobertM]

ND,

I checked for the 690 and found the following:

* 2nd processor, Dual Core Xeon 5080, 3.73 Ghz., 2x2MB L2, 1066 Mhz, 690 cust install for $1690.00 Cdn

* Xeon 5160 3.00 Ghz, 1333 Fsb, 690, for $1609.00

* Dual Core Xeon 5150 2.66 Ghz., 4MB L2, 1333Mhz Dell Precision 690 cust install for $1129.00

* 256 Quadro 3450, $ 1079.00

I don't know anything about these systems and so I can't be sure as to whether these are great opportunities or not. There is no mention about video cards etc.
Any suggestions for these? The system I planned on putting together is several times the prices above, and saving that much coin would certainly be attractive. I will give Dell a call and see what I can find out.
Once again...thanks very much!!

 

[ND40oz]

I'm not quite sure how to get to the dell outlet from the Canadian site, but the US version is delloutlet.com, you may be able to get shipping to Canada from it, not sure though. Either way, I found this 390 which should fit what your looking for. Not sure how much you want to spend, this price is in U.S. currency.

Precision 390
(System Identifier: E6TX3VDE)


Precision Workstation 390 Mini-Tower: Intel Core 2 Extreme QX6700 2.66GHz/1066MHz/8MB L2/Quad-core/VT
Genuine Windows XP x64 Professional

System Price : $2,459.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Operating System
Genuine Windows XP x64 Professional
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memory
4 GB DDR ECC SDRAM 677MHz Dual Ranked (4 DIMMs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard Disk Drive
80 GB EIDE SATA Hard Drive DataBurst (10K RPM)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3500, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certified Refurbished
Certified Refurbished
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Base
Precision Workstation 390 Mini-Tower: Intel Core 2 Extreme QX6700 2.66GHz/1066MHz/8MB L2/Quad-core/VT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Bay
48X CD RW/DVD Combo Drive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware Upgrade
Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration
Hardware is Microsoft Vista Capable
Internal USB Media Card Reader
USB Keyboard
USB 2 Button Mouse

 

[yevaud]

I am running a 6800GT softmodded to a Quadro 4000. Compare the performance of the newest quadro to the 4000, and you'll see not much of a difference. Problem is the card you can softmod is AGP. Pci-e nVidia cards are unmoddable to quadro.

But there is an economical solution:

You can get a 6800GT for around $200
Get an Asrock 4coredualvista mobo for $60 bux
Get a Core2quad processor 6600 for $835
Get 2 Gigs of regular DDR ram for $175 (cas 2)
A couple of 320Gb Seagate barracudas for $180 (raid 0)
A nice DVD burner for $40
A decent 500W power supply for $70

Combine these elements in a case of your choosing. All of this for less than just a top of the line quadro 4500 by itself- and will give you 80% of the performance. Total price $1570. It will own any system you can buy from the big three for that price PERIOD. I submit that you won't be able to spend twice that price and come close to the performance.
Downside is that it won't run a pci-e dx10 video card (even though it has a pcie slot). But you want to budget your money for the quad core when it comes to 3dstudio max rendering. Take that other grand you save and buy a westinghouse 37w3.

 

[ND40oz]

I would not recommend doing that. You're buying a Via board that uses AGP and DDR. Already going to pay a price premium and take a performance hit right there. You're purchasing a video card that's almost 3 years old and then immediately voiding whatever warranty it has by flashing it's bios to one that's unsupported. You double your risk of losing data by going with a raid 0 solution, if you're that worried about speed, get a true workstation board and go with SAS or just use a Raptor and then a larger storage drive.

 

[yevaud]

Check your facts. A softmod is not "a warrantee voiding bios flash". The motherboard also supports DDR2 so if it's more "cost effective" to get 2gb of DDR2 get it- just know that you'll see a loss of performance at the typical FSB speeds allowed by this board. If Raid 0 is too risky, then get a raptor and a storage drive instead or go to a raid 5 solution.

 

[KaOTiK]

I don't know if your new to 3d modeling and such but I am assuming you are from your post. In all honesty, a quadro for being a beginner is way way over kill, especially for game stuff unless you are going to be making hi res characters for normal mapping and even then zbrush and mudbox handle hi res meshes without a hitch, and that is where you would be spending a lot of time creating the details of your hi res.

For most people out there, using a high end game card is fine. Hell a lot of the studios I know have their work machines with just high end gaming cards instead of quadros, only a select few will have them in their workstations. Don't get me wrong, quadros are fantastic for what they do and will destroy the geforce line in that, but it is overkill for most people out there.

I use 8800gtx's and I have a quadro in another machine and unless I am working with some very dense scenes the 8800 is fine and even then using layers inside of maya is fine to get rid of a lot of unneeded stuff from the viewport.

My personal suggest as someone who does this for a living, unless you know what your doing and are doing hi res modeling a high end gaming card and a lot of ram will do you just fine.

 

[shmitty]

I don't know Jack about Macs but is this possible on the Pro series cards refering to the Softmods? I know its an expensive way to game but I'm thinking for my Dad who owns a photography business and he's getting into some Graffic Design.

 

[RobertM]

ND,

I have not been able to find a link to a Canadian outlet for refurbished systems. I'll be phoning Dell Canada for some info. Hopefully Dell Canada has similar offerings. The added duty bring stuff in from the US usually makes any deal less attractive. There is often shipping charges, the difference in currency and @ 13% duty.
Thanks for taking the time to give me this info. I'll continue to look into the possibilities of a refurb unit.

Robert

 

[ND40oz]

Check your facts. A softmod is not "a warrantee voiding bios flash". The motherboard also supports DDR2 so if it's more "cost effective" to get 2gb of DDR2 get it- just know that you'll see a loss of performance at the typical FSB speeds allowed by this board. If Raid 0 is too risky, then get a raptor and a storage drive instead or go to a raid 5 solution.

It's still a Via board that uses an AGP slot, not something I would use in any build at this point in time. And just because you feel ok RMAing a card that has been modified with Rivatuner does not make it right, you've voided your warranty the moment you go in changing settings.

I don't know if your new to 3d modeling and such but I am assuming you are from your post. In all honesty, a quadro for being a beginner is way way over kill, especially for game stuff unless you are going to be making hi res characters for normal mapping and even then zbrush and mudbox handle hi res meshes without a hitch, and that is where you would be spending a lot of time creating the details of your hi res.

For most people out there, using a high end game card is fine. Hell a lot of the studios I know have their work machines with just high end gaming cards instead of quadros, only a select few will have them in their workstations. Don't get me wrong, quadros are fantastic for what they do and will destroy the geforce line in that, but it is overkill for most people out there.

I use 8800gtx's and I have a quadro in another machine and unless I am working with some very dense scenes the 8800 is fine and even then using layers inside of maya is fine to get rid of a lot of unneeded stuff from the viewport.

My personal suggest as someone who does this for a living, unless you know what your doing and are doing hi res modeling a high end gaming card and a lot of ram will do you just fine.

Another good suggestion if you want to cut down on the cost of the build.

 

[taqueso]

I am running a 6800GT softmodded to a Quadro 4000. Compare the performance of the newest quadro to the 4000, and you'll see not much of a difference. Problem is the card you can softmod is AGP. Pci-e nVidia cards are unmoddable to quadro.

This is not true. I have softmodded a 6800 Ultra PCIe and it works great. The difference between the AGP and PCIe softmods is that the AGP-PCIe bridge chip will override the name that is in the BIOS, so it will always show GeForce in windows instead of Quadro. But benchmarks show that the mod is working.

The problem is finding the high-end 6800 series in PCIe flavor. Not many were produced, so they are pretty rare.

 

[RobertM]

KaOTik,

Yes, I am fairly new to 3D modelling, but I'm hoping that whatever system I end up with, I'll be able to learn and grow in experience over time. I am concerned that I'll be limited by gear. I understand what you are saying and appreciate that a Quadro for me at this time is probably not necessary. Certainly the Quadros are an added expense that I'm not convinced is justified for me, and so your suggestion is very much appreciated. I was giving this very notion some thought myself. If I can find a Quadro at a good price, I may go for one, but certainly an 8800 GTX will be terrific for what I'm applying it to. If I want to consider SLI, then the Quadro option is definately out. Sli is probably not what I'll do. I think I would be better off upgrading my card if necessary in the future. An 8800 with 4G of Corsair 8500 memory I'm sure will suffice. Perhaps a Quadro is something I should consider when I am able to see the benefits of having one.
The truth is...I am having much more difficulty selecting a mobo. I want stability, sli, 1333, and EPP. The Asus P5NT WS is looking like a solution that would work for me.
So many decisions to make, and that is why I appreciate your input!!! I'll be making firm decisions by the end of the month.Thanks very much!!


Robert
==============================================================

Yevaud,

I am not very tech experienced and soft modding is something I can't see myself getting involved with. I am definately going quad core and have budgeted for either an 8800 or quadro solution with a workstation mobo. I am interested in DX10. I'll not be overclocking at all...just looking for high-end performance and stability.

Thanks for the suggestions!!

 

[uniwarp]

softmodding (in case of radeon cards) is an extremely simple process in which all you do is make a piece of software (Riva Tuner) apply a patch to a certain driver released for FireGL series which in turn allows your radeon card to behave like a fireGL counterpart. X1800XT/X1900XT can both be softmodded to FireGL and specviewperf results would also agree that these cards are as powerful as a Quadro FX4500 in a workstation environment. X1800XT 512MB and FireGL V7300 share the exact same GPU (without any limitations on any part) so if you can buy one for cheap (which they all are these days) you might be saving a good deal of money. If you were in a mission critical environment right now I would no doubt recommend a Workstation card just for the support and certification purposes but in your case softmod is a very good choice.

check www.guru3d.com Riva tuner section for more details.

 

[Sr7]

I'm selling an FX4600 for a bargain... pm me if you're interested

 

[KaOTiK]

KaOTik,

Yes, I am fairly new to 3D modelling, but I'm hoping that whatever system I end up with, I'll be able to learn and grow in experience over time. I am concerned that I'll be limited by gear. I understand what you are saying and appreciate that a Quadro for me at this time is probably not necessary. Certainly the Quadros are an added expense that I'm not convinced is justified for me, and so your suggestion is very much appreciated. I was giving this very notion some thought myself. If I can find a Quadro at a good price, I may go for one, but certainly an 8800 GTX will be terrific for what I'm applying it to. If I want to consider SLI, then the Quadro option is definately out. Sli is probably not what I'll do. I think I would be better off upgrading my card if necessary in the future. An 8800 with 4G of Corsair 8500 memory I'm sure will suffice. Perhaps a Quadro is something I should consider when I am able to see the benefits of having one.
The truth is...I am having much more difficulty selecting a mobo. I want stability, sli, 1333, and EPP. The Asus P5NT WS is looking like a solution that would work for me.
So many decisions to make, and that is why I appreciate your input!!! I'll be making firm decisions by the end of the month.Thanks very much!!

Robert,

No problem at all with the helping you out, I know it is a lot stuff and it really is a grey area with where price/performance is for video cards. But I can tell you from what I have seen overtime and none of what I am going to say is about you personally so please do not get upset at me

3D modeling isn't some easy pick up and play and learn it rather quickly thing. You'll learn it fairly quickly if you practice it like it was a full time job and that is just to understand a lot of the basics from doing tutorials and reading and such. The use of a quadro is for hi res meshes that are used for pretty much two purposes only, 1 is for normal mapping and the other is for film. To get to that quality level takes quite awhile, any monkey can make dense meshes but if they aren't even using the geometry then they don't know what they are doing. Higher end game cards will run I believe in viewports around 300-500k and be fine. That much geometry alone is hugh, thats normal map models for some character designs. Most in game characters right now are pushing 15k ish which is nothing for any video card made in the last 5 years probably lol. End of little rant, remember not directed at you, just an observation of stuff that most people that don't do this stuff never really know.

I understand and appriciate you wanting to prepare yourself for the future and are looking at the quadro now. But more then likely you won't need that type of power. I push the gaming card to people that are new to it cause it really is a much safer bet for them as they more often then not wont use the power a quadro is specialized for and it is a nice bonus to have a good gaming card. If you start getting serious about modeling, beleive me you need to play games, not to play them but to study them, you will start to see how things are made and will give you a better insist to help yourself and give you new ideas as well. My fiance cant stand watching me play games anymore cause half the time I am starring at walls and slowly rotating and checking things. I spend more time looking for things I know and different ways other artists did things to see if I can improve on my skills.

Sorry kinda got side tracked lol. I'll post back if you have any other questions, if not, I wish you the best of luck in whatever your decision is and hope you enjoy it. One word of advice though, if you want to model characters you better know or learn anatomy really well, it is the backbone to modeling.

Kao

 

[yevaud]

I don't know Jack about Macs but is this possible on the Pro series cards refering to the Softmods? ...

It is possible to softmod both the 6800 series Nvidia to quadro and the ATI 18/1900 to firegl. Rivatuner rules.

It's still a Via board that uses an AGP slot, not something I would use in any build at this point in time. And just because you feel ok RMAing a card that has been modified with Rivatuner does not make it right, you've voided your warranty the moment you go in changing settings.
.....

Spending $300 on a motherboard does not make it 5X better than a $60 mobo. Via is admitedly not the best vendor out there, but I've had no stability issues with them. If the solution is cost effective, and outperforms a 7800 gtx pcie in specviewperf, how exactly is it important what slot it uses?
And please show me where softmodding (not bios flashing or overclocking) voids your warrantee. That statement is equivalent to saying using beta nVidia drivers voids your warrantee.

This is not true. I have softmodded a 6800 Ultra PCIe and it works great. The difference between the AGP and PCIe softmods is that the AGP-PCIe bridge chip will override the name that is in the BIOS, so it will always show GeForce in windows instead of Quadro. But benchmarks show that the mod is working.

The problem is finding the high-end 6800 series in PCIe flavor. Not many were produced, so they are pretty rare.

I stand corrected. I believe some of the early PCIe 6800's were moddable, but then they started cutting traces- so if you go that route, be sure to verify the particular card model or you can get an unmoddable one.

Yevaud,

I am not very tech experienced and soft modding is something I can't see myself getting involved with. I am definately going quad core and have budgeted for either an 8800 or quadro solution with a workstation mobo. I am interested in DX10. I'll not be overclocking at all...just looking for high-end performance and stability.

Thanks for the suggestions!!

I have no performance or stability problems with my build. Softmodding is quite simple, reversible, and only has to be done the one time. You got me on the DX10 desire, though. I doubt there will be a softmoddable DX10 gen card. I hope I'm wrong, but I think nVidia and ATI have learned from their mistakes.
I use Pro/E, 3dstudiomax, blender and Autocad. The way the Quadro renders overlay planes is important to me, as is wireframe antialiasing and 2-sided lighting. Here is a link to a slideshow that illustrates some of the differences. If they are not important to you, then I agree with KaOTiK, go with the 8800gtx- or ATI R600 whatever has the best price/feature set/performance ratio for you.

 

[ND40oz]

And please show me where softmodding (not bios flashing or overclocking) voids your warrantee. That statement is equivalent to saying using beta nVidia drivers voids your warrantee.

I'm not here to argue semantics with you, but what do you think rivatuner is doing when you softmod it? It's accessing the card at the hardware level and modifying its bios through a windows based software app. That's fine as long as your willing to accept the risk, but don't try and convince yourself and others that it's ethical to RMA a card once you've gone in at a hardware level and made changes. In all reality this doesn't matter because the 6800GT is out of warranty anyway as EVGA states "This lifetime warranty is valid for the life of the retail product" and you won't find a 6800GT on their website or new in box at a retail store. Just because the hardware vendor can't tell you made the change doesn't make it right to RMA it because you did something out of spec.

 

[RobertM]

KaOTiK,

I have a few maps made with UnrealED...below is a full side view from the editor of my first map. It features large caverns and many connected movers etc. It was a huge map for it's time at 11.5 MB. One map I'm working on now is much larger again at 38 MB, without lighting, paths and optimization. I've become fairly knowledgeable with the editor, but the meshes I'm making are all within the editor, and I need to be using 3DMax and Maya for better brushes that draw less on resources. So, I do consider myself to be near the beginning of working with the more advanced editors, but I think I'll progress quite quickly. I'm not that interested in modelling characters...it's terrain and geometry with complex movers that I'm most interested in. My designs tend to be overly complex and so I definately see a need to get more into Maya etc. Everything I make needs a lot of processing power and I need to learn to build more economically. Static meshes have helped, but I need to learn to make them better.
I spend little time gaming...only enough to see what others are doing and how things are made. It is vital though to "see" what I've created in a game so as to check everything for problems etc. I spend most of my time viewing in the editors.

Excellent help offered here....much appreciated!!!

 

[RobertM]

yevaud,

The link to the slideshow you wanted to include isn't showing. I'm not familiar with Pro/E. Is it a 3Deditor? Truth is, I've been away from building for awhile because my puter can no longer handle the builds adequately. Photography takes most of my time now, but as soon as I get a new rig together, I've a few maps to complete...hopefully with better designed/rendered meshes etc.

Robert

 

[yevaud]

I'm not here to argue semantics with you, but what do you think rivatuner is doing when you softmod it? It's accessing the card at the hardware level and modifying its bios through a windows based software app. That's fine as long as your willing to accept the risk, but don't try and convince yourself and others that it's ethical to RMA a card once you've gone in at a hardware level and made changes. In all reality this doesn't matter because the 6800GT is out of warranty anyway as EVGA states "This lifetime warranty is valid for the life of the retail product" and you won't find a 6800GT on their website or new in box at a retail store. Just because the hardware vendor can't tell you made the change doesn't make it right to RMA it because you did something out of spec.

Dude, I have never RMA'd a card that was overclocked, bios flashed, or softmodded. I have never advocated that it was ethical to do so. In fact, if you check my post history, you'll find that I have stated that RMA'ing an overclocked or volt modded card is unethical. So I guess my question is WTF are you on about? Read my sig.

yevaud,

The link to the slideshow you wanted to include isn't showing. I'm not familiar with Pro/E. Is it a 3Deditor? Truth is, I've been away from building for awhile because my puter can no longer handle the builds adequately. Photography takes most of my time now, but as soon as I get a new rig together, I've a few maps to complete...hopefully with better designed/rendered meshes etc.

Robert

Pro/E is an industrial grade 3d parametric modeling program. It is generally used to design products for manufacturing. It can be used to make models that will work in game engines, but only after translation. It can be used to create very large assemblies, for example all the parts and pieces in a chevy engine, and each part will be dimensionally accurate and have a tolerance and positional relationship to the other parts.
I found another (older) comparison of geforce and quadro. The pdf can be found HERE.

 

[taqueso]

Dude, I have never RMA'd a card that was overclocked, bios flashed, or softmodded. I have never advocated that it was ethical to do so. In fact, if you check my post history, you'll find that I have stated that RMA'ing an overclocked or volt modded card is unethical. So I guess my question is WTF are you on about? Read my sig.

There seems to be some kind of keep-the-warranty, be-careful-you-might-hurt-it trend here at [H] this last year or so. I wish I knew how to reverse it