PVA font issue? What about PLS?

sblantipodi

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Hi all,
I'm reading about a font issue that afflict PVA monitors.

Can you explain me better what is the problem exactly please?
Is PLS panel afflicted by this problem?

Personally I have a PVA panel now but I can't see any problem in fonts,
have you got an example on some problematic font?

Thanks.
 

brod

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I can't see any problem in fonts
Then don't worry about it. I can't find fault with my S-PVA fonts either, though I do prefer 40% sharpness to make black text on white background a bit easier to read.
 

sblantipodi

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Then don't worry about it. I can't find fault with my S-PVA fonts either, though I do prefer 40% sharpness to make black text on white background a bit easier to read.
what is the most difficult "scene" to test for this issue?
 

XoR

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had s-pva and no issues.
Most IPS panels are worse for text because hard AG coating.

btw. for text readibility there is great program: ezgdi
 

NCX

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Text is only an issue on monitors with aggressive anti-glare coating=99% of matte IPS panels, LG TN panels and some other brands using LG TN panels.
 

joeshmoe

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I thought PVA monitors were best for text reading isn't it? Even more accurate and sharp compared to IPS
 

joeshmoe

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I know, but isn't PVA supposed to be really sharp and accurate now. Not in the past. Or have I got my facts wrong.
 

sblantipodi

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I know, but isn't PVA supposed to be really sharp and accurate now. Not in the past. Or have I got my facts wrong.
I had both PVA and IPS and I prefer the PVA sharpness but I'm asking it since I read about customers who complained about some strange font issues with PVA panel.
 

Whoisthisreally

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I know, but isn't PVA supposed to be really sharp and accurate now. Not in the past. Or have I got my facts wrong.
C-PVA is comparable to IPS text-wise. I can't think of any new PVA products after C-PVA. The new parts both by AUO and Samsung after the original F2380 panel are reportedly worse in terms of colour shift, which means PVA is pretty much dying in terms of higher end monitors.
 

sblantipodi

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The new parts both by AUO and Samsung after the original F2380 panel are reportedly worse in terms of colour shift, which means PVA is pretty much dying in terms of higher end monitors.
lol, what is the point of this in this thread? :D please stop beeing fanboy :p
 

10e

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Wow, the PLS text looks far more natural.
It's because of the ||| pixel structure versus the S-PVA pizza slices.

Text is only an issue on monitors with aggressive anti-glare coating=99% of matte IPS panels, LG TN panels and some other brands using LG TN panels.
No it's not. Again, because of your intense bias you are unable to expand your point-of-view to understand why this isn't the case.

I've had multiple *VA monitors and text was never as sharp as any IPS I've owned including the much vilified U2711.

Only C-PVA is identical to the naked eye.

EDIT: And before you respond I actually agree that I prefer a smoother anti-glare like that of the PLS panels and my NEC LCD2690WUXI (which is similar to your old 275T), I'm just saying open your eyes.

I had both PVA and IPS and I prefer the PVA sharpness but I'm asking it since I read about customers who complained about some strange font issues with PVA panel.
S-PVA and A-MVA is less sharp than IPS because of the pixel structure. It introduces a blur and it is exacerbated by ClearType.

We'll agree to disagree, but I'm in the same boat as your customers. I always felt there was a very slight blur effect on A-MVA and S-PVA pixels even though the panels I've had of both types had very good, smooth anti-glare.

This effect is most evident with black text on a light grey background like a dialog window.

C-PVA is comparable to IPS text-wise. I can't think of any new PVA products after C-PVA. The new parts both by AUO and Samsung after the original F2380 panel are reportedly worse in terms of colour shift, which means PVA is pretty much dying in terms of higher end monitors.
Yes, in terms of text C-PVA = IPS for me.

A-MVA is the worst, S-PVA is the best, and C-PVA is closer to S-PVA in terms of horizontal gamma shift.

The difference with C-PVA and S-PVA is that the C-PVA seems somehow more symmetrical. I always found with S-PVA the shift was worse in one direction than the other, ie. looking at it from the right versus the left..

lol, what is the point of this in this thread? :D please stop beeing fanboy :p
I don't see how he's being a fan-boy any more than you are?
 
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10e

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C-PVA pixel structure:



Taken from the Sony Playstation 3d Monitor.
 

Whoisthisreally

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A-MVA is the worst, S-PVA is the best, and C-PVA is closer to S-PVA in terms of horizontal gamma shift.
Can you comment as to the C-PVA gamma shift being more or less prominent than S-PVA? Someone noted that their F2380 was worse compared to an S-PVA monitor, and I don't have a unit to compare for myself.
 

SH1

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These comparisons are all relative, right? On any decent computer panel, text should be sharp....
 

XoR

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i posted it. Gamma shift was terrible compared to Dell 2407wfp. also A-MVA is worse than this dell and it reduce black so this 3000:1 is worse than on cPVA but from small angles a-mva look less washed out.

a-mva text is near perfect. cpva is perfect cause less screen door effect. as for s-pva its text didnt look suspicious at all so its rather small issue

ps from photos 2408wp have more gamma shift than 07
 

10e

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Can you comment as to the C-PVA gamma shift being more or less prominent than S-PVA? Someone noted that their F2380 was worse compared to an S-PVA monitor, and I don't have a unit to compare for myself.
The S-PVA panel had almost an asymmetrical gamma shift horizontally. I can't remember if left or right was worse. I think looking leftwards at it from a more "right-most" position was worse.

The C-PVA panel seems to be more symmetrical and (IMHO) no more intrusive.

Unfortunately it was a 27" S-PVA in my Dell 2709W versus a narrower 24" in the PS3 screen with the C-PVA panel, so that might have had something to do with it, ie. narrower view on the 24" C-PVA.
 

XoR

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this 3d playstation monitor is C-PVA?
how they managed to boost it's response time under 8ms from something that slow? :eek:
 

NCX

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I've had multiple *VA monitors and text was never as sharp as any IPS I've owned including the much vilified U2711.

I'm just saying open your eyes.
?

I have opened my eyes, I bought a PA238Q and have used a few LG TN's with the same coating=grainy fest. Worst text I had ever seen on a monitor, that doesn't mean it is is unreadable or eye searing though. I had the Samsung 275t (medium AG) and BenQ EW2420 )A-MVA semi-glossy, the BenQ had better text. I didn't really like the 275t because of the coating, same goes for Samsung TN panels.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree like you said, still I think you are just being really defensive since you own a U2412hm.
 
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XoR

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from video I posted link to it's obvious this Asus can't be as bad as you describe. For it to be "grainy fest" it would have to be almost non reflective like U2711 is.

you must be super sensitive to it or something...

ps. check decreasing sharpness one point below default. Somehow IPS aren't as sharp as TN/VA and producers use digital shaprening, maybe this is responsibe for text issues. I had to decrease it both in U2410 and W2420R. After that text was/is good.
 

brod

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These comparisons are all relative, right? On any decent computer panel, text should be sharp....
Pretty much. I'm not sure why people are posting zoomed photos of subpixel structure... the human eye doesn't see subpixels when you look at a monitor, otherwise it would be impossible to display white.

If you want really nice looking text then use NoSquint FF addon and 110% text zoom on all webpages. Especially good on websites that use tiny fonts like this one.
 

sblantipodi

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S-PVA and A-MVA is less sharp than IPS because of the pixel structure. It introduces a blur and it is exacerbated by ClearType.

Yes, in terms of text C-PVA = IPS for me.

A-MVA is the worst, S-PVA is the best, and C-PVA is closer to S-PVA in terms of horizontal gamma shift.
You say that S-PVA is less sharp than IPS, than you say that cPVA is = IPS and than that S-PVA is the best. Please enable cleartype in your mind :D
 

evilsofa

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You say that S-PVA is less sharp than IPS, than you say that cPVA is = IPS and than that S-PVA is the best. Please enable cleartype in your mind :D
In the last sentence, he is talking about horizontal gamma shift, not text sharpness.
 

albovin

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I'm not sure why people are posting zoomed photos of subpixel structure... the human eye doesn't see subpixels when you look at a monitor, otherwise it would be impossible to display white.

If you want really nice looking text then use NoSquint FF addon and 110% text zoom on all webpages. Especially good on websites that use tiny fonts like this one.
The human eye can distinguish sharper text from blurrier text.
What causes the difference?
Macrophoto gives you the answer.

 

sblantipodi

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The human eye can distinguish sharper text from blurrier text.
What causes the difference?
Macrophoto gives you the answer.

Sincerely I can't say what is sharper from this image, specially if I think that when I see the monitor I'm not using a macro zoom camera but my eye.
 
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Sincerely I can't say what is sharper from this image, specially if I think that when I see the monitor I'm not using a macro zoom camera but my eye.
Due to the subpixel (domain) design the S-PVA panels show a slight blurred text rendering. Most user don't have a problem with this characteristic but it can interfere with subpixel rendering techniques.

Someone noted that their F2380 was worse compared to an S-PVA monitor, and I don't have a unit to compare for myself.
The problem with the F2380 is that the gradation characteristic is completely distorted which makes a comparison very difficult and leads to a considerable black crush.

Best regards

Denis
 

sblantipodi

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Due to the subpixel (domain) design the S-PVA panels show a slight blurred text rendering. Most user don't have a problem with this characteristic but it can interfere with subpixel rendering techniques.


The problem with the F2380 is that the gradation characteristic is completely distorted which makes a comparison very difficult and leads to a considerable black crush.

Best regards

Denis
thanks Denis.
 

brod

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So because S-PVA subpixels aren't perfectly straight you believe that this causes blurriness?

Even at 10cm distance I cannot see any such effect, let alone my normal viewing distance of 71cm.

ps. I'm also using Windows 7 ClearType.
 

ToastyX

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The problem isn't that the subpixels aren't straight. The problem is the subpixels have a gap in the middle, which causes my eyes to blend the top of one pixel and the bottom of another pixel together, resulting in a slight vertical blur. Not all VA panels have this effect. Only the ones with the split-pixel structure did this for me. It was most noticeable with midtones, not black or white text.

Example:



That is a pixel font and should be perfectly sharp, but it wasn't sharp for me on split-pixel VA panels.

As for anti-glare affecting text, people keep saying the strong anti-glare on LG IPS panels makes text fuzzy, but I have never seen such a thing. For it to affect text, it would have to affect the subpixels in some way, but even macro shots show a clear delineation between red/green/blue subpixels with no strange gaps, so I don't understand what people are seeing.
 

10e

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?

I have opened my eyes, I bought a PA238Q and have used a few LG TN's with the same coating=grainy fest. Worst text I had ever seen on a monitor, that doesn't mean it is is unreadable or eye searing though. I had the Samsung 275t (medium AG) and BenQ EW2420 )A-MVA semi-glossy, the BenQ had better text. I didn't really like the 275t because of the coating, same goes for Samsung TN panels.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree like you said, still I think you are just being really defensive since you own a U2412hm.
So basically you hate all anti-glare, outside of semi-gloss.

That's fine, just say it. In that regard we can agree to disagree.

IMHO, he 275T is fine, very little sparkling, and a small touch of noise, as is my NEC LCD2690. The 2709W was an S-PVA panel with anti-glare similar to the BenQ you mentioned, ie. semi-gloss because it was a slightly different revision than the 275T and had smoother whites. You probably would have liked that better for a 27" with multi-inputs.

I don't need to defend the Dell U2412M, 3008WFP, U2711, Samsung S27A850, S24A850 NEC LCD2490WUXI2-BK, etc...etc.... or any other monitors I've bought. So far, the U2412M thread has had far more posts than the S24A850 and far fewer complaints.

So I'll take the grainier anti-glare for the much lesser chance of getting major back-light bleed, better overall construction, higher contrast, and pocket the extra $100.00 for the U2412M.

You mentioned a panel lottery for the U2412M earlier, it seems like the SA850 is more likely to have that, but I don't see you vilifying Samsung for it as you do for LG.

You say that S-PVA is less sharp than IPS, than you say that cPVA is = IPS and than that S-PVA is the best. Please enable cleartype in your mind :D
No I said this, where I will use color to help you focus:

Yes, in terms of text C-PVA = IPS for me.

A-MVA is the worst, S-PVA is the best, and C-PVA is closer to S-PVA in terms of horizontal gamma shift.

The difference with C-PVA and S-PVA is that the C-PVA seems somehow more symmetrical. I always found with S-PVA the shift was worse in one direction than the other, ie. looking at it from the right versus the left..

I hope that helped you process information. I may jump around in posts, but it's not like an IQ test. A > C, B<C, so is A bigger than B?

People are chiming in with opinions because you asked.

The best test is black text on a gray or colored background.

Pretty much. I'm not sure why people are posting zoomed photos of subpixel structure... the human eye doesn't see subpixels when you look at a monitor, otherwise it would be impossible to display white.

If you want really nice looking text then use NoSquint FF addon and 110% text zoom on all webpages. Especially good on websites that use tiny fonts like this one.
The difference is not eye-wrenching, but it's there. I used to notice it on my old Westinghouse L2410NM versus the BenQ G2400W back in 2008, specifically on dialog windows with black text on a gray background in XP. I was sitting about 23 - 28 inches away so maybe I was too close, but it was definitely there.

this 3d playstation monitor is C-PVA?
how they managed to boost it's response time under 8ms from something that slow? :eek:
No, it is still not very good, and seems worse on vertical motion than horizontal. I have already returned it because while it's spec'd at 240hz it definitely seems slower than my new 120hz Sony KDL-40EX723 TV I purchased for my family room, which rivals my plasma in terms of motion resolution.


It's too bad because I can see why people like C-PVA screens.
 
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XoR

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it would make much more sense to use A-MVA in this Sony monitor because:
- it's already 24"
- it's already W-LED
- it's faster than C-PVA

where it is stated it's C-PVA and not A-MVA? :confused:
 

sblantipodi

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The problem isn't that the subpixels aren't straight. The problem is the subpixels have a gap in the middle, which causes my eyes to blend the top of one pixel and the bottom of another pixel together, resulting in a slight vertical blur. Not all VA panels have this effect. Only the ones with the split-pixel structure did this for me. It was most noticeable with midtones, not black or white text.

Example:



That is a pixel font and should be perfectly sharp, but it wasn't sharp for me on split-pixel VA panels.

As for anti-glare affecting text, people keep saying the strong anti-glare on LG IPS panels makes text fuzzy, but I have never seen such a thing. For it to affect text, it would have to affect the subpixels in some way, but even macro shots show a clear delineation between red/green/blue subpixels with no strange gaps, so I don't understand what people are seeing.
On my S-PVA I can't really see any blur on this image also if I see it very closely.
Why? How can I know if I have the split-pixel structure and what is it exactly?
I'm sorry but as far as I know, every S-PVA uses the same structure, as much as every cPVA uses the same pixel structure and so on, isn't it?
 
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