PS4/XBOX ONE emulation

The question is, why would you want to?
 
Well, if the games are coded for x86 architecture, then I guess that would make things much easier. I noticed in PS2 emulator, you need to recompile the instructions for its specific processors (the Emotion engine and VU processors) before you can carry them out to run the game. If we can avoid the need to do that, I think it will be very easy to emulate them, at least in terms of processing power requirement.

Just a guess though.
 
ljtatej said:
Do you think it will be hard to emulate these systems on the PC?
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Yes. PC and console hardware components may be converging, but consoles are increasingly relying on sophisticated proprietary operating systems. Emulators don't just need to emulate the hardware...they also need to reimplement the console operating system's API. This API needs to be implemented pretty precisely, to the point where the emulator's implementation needs to replicate any bugs in the original to maintain compatibility.

For an idea of how much of a pain in the ass this is, just check out the Wine project: After twenty years of work you can now acceptably run most Windows software on Linux...but you still can't run all of it, and even the software that runs well often has a few things broken.

Moreover, it wouldn't surprise me if Sony or Microsoft pulled something like requiring encrypted media to be decrypted by the private key of an onboard TPM chip.
 
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ljtatej said:
Do you think it will be hard to emulate these systems on the PC?
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XB1 might be pretty easy if its DRM gets cracked, but if rumors about PS4 being FreeBSD-based are true, that one might be more difficult for Windows users since the APIs offered by the underlying OS will be totally different. Maybe people will figure out how to run the actual OSes used by the consoles on a PC.
 
dandragonrage said:
XB1 might be pretty easy if its DRM gets cracked, but if rumors about PS4 being FreeBSD-based are true, that one might be more difficult for Windows users since the APIs offered by the underlying OS will be totally different. Maybe people will figure out how to run the actual OSes used by the consoles on a PC.
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Actually, that's great news, because emulating FreeBSD's API should be as simple as pie: Not only is the API mostly based on POSIX and much better-specified than anything Microsoft has ever written, but FreeBSD is free software released under a permissive license, so you can pretty much copy/paste the code for your compatibility layer. (Well, not exactly, since a lot of it uses instructions that must run in kernel mode...but still, the API is well-documented, and code is available, so it will be a lot easier to implement the kernel parts in terms of Windows system calls than it would be to implement opaque Windows system calls in terms of anything else.) Patch up the game software with the new hooks, and viola! An easier setup might use a slightly modified FreeBSD VM, but that would require direct GPU access, and virtualization support for that is still sketchy.

Microsoft likely uses a different API on XboxOne than Windows for a lot of things anyway, so it's really unlikely that you'll be able to directly translate XboxOne system calls to Windows system calls. Instead, someone will have to write a compatibility layer like Wine by reverse-engineering another undocumented and likely quirky proprietary API...which is tons of fun. ;)
 
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Mini-Me said:
Yes. PC and console hardware components may be converging, but consoles are increasingly relying on sophisticated proprietary operating systems. Emulators don't just need to emulate the hardware...they also need to reimplement the console operating system's API. This API needs to be implemented pretty precisely, to the point where the emulator's implementation needs to replicate any bugs in the original to maintain compatibility.
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With consoles running on x86 hardware my guess is that you will be able to just load up an image of the console OS in a virtualization software package such as VMware Workstation/Fusion or some such and have at it. Probably won't be legal to do that, but technically it will be a lot easier than a PS3 emulator.
 
You obviously won't be able to just run those games on any x86 machine, their executable will likely be compiled specifically for the OS that Microsoft and Sony design for the hardware. Just like you can't run a Windows game on OSX unless the developer compiles an executable for OSX.

I think that since the hardware is similar, that won't be a big issue. The issue would be getting the OS to boot on non-standard hardware. The process would probably involve hacking encrypted firmware and then dumping it (the BIOS/UEFI from the motherboard, etc) and from there building your program to convince the operating system to boot and launch applications which is probably a lot of hard work.
 
Thuleman said:
With consoles running on x86 hardware my guess is that you will be able to just load up an image of the console OS in a virtualization software package such as VMware Workstation/Fusion or some such and have at it. Probably won't be legal to do that, but technically it will be a lot easier than a PS3 emulator.
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This seems like a workable approach in the absence of hardware DRM, but there will likely be snags and areas where the OS needs to be modified, or where the VM's hardware emulation layer needs to be really clever. djoye provides a pretty hairy example in the post above mine. Moreover, if the OS relies on a hardware TPM chip to decrypt game discs (or firmware), we'll need to wait for someone to get the private key (likely with an electron microscope...not easy) and then build it into the VM image or software. If downloadable games are keyed to each console's *unique* on-chip private key, then people are REALLY screwed as far as emulating them is concerned.
 
Doing it in a VM just wont work in my opinion. I could see some sort of wrapper being created ala WINE for linux.
 
bigdogchris said:
So you condone pirating games and excuse it as "It's just 1 or 2"?
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Emulation != Piracy. A ton of people buy Wii games and play them on their Dolphin emulator for better resolution (and to avoid buying a Wii). In the case of Sony and Microsoft, buying the games and playing them on an emulator would actually save the companies money, since they sell their systems at below cost.
 
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Mini-Me said:
Emulation != Piracy. A ton of people buy Wii games and play them on their Dolphin emulator for better resolution (and to avoid buying a Wii). In the case of the Sony and Microsoft, buying the games and playing them on an emulator would actually save the companies money, since they sell their systems at below cost.
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I dont think this is right, but I could be wrong. I remember when Sony went after bleem and as far as I remember sony lost that battle. Now if I download the game that piracy. If I bought the disk its more grey area.
 
yes, they both are already emulated. it is however using a linux os for ps3. they are called dev boxes.
 
Mini-Me said:
Emulation != Piracy. A ton of people buy Wii games and play them on their Dolphin emulator for better resolution (and to avoid buying a Wii). In the case of the Sony and Microsoft, buying the games and playing them on an emulator would actually save the companies money, since they sell their systems at below cost.
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Yep. I use emulators fairly often even though I own at current: SNES, N64, Wii, PC Engine, Sega Genesis + CD (+ JVC X'eye which is like a Sega CDX), PS2, PS3, X360. I do use high-res texture packs for some Nintendo stuff. And I do buy the original games too. Xenoblade Chronicles for example is a great game which was majorly limited by the weak system it was on, and fortunately got a high-res texture mod pretty quickly.

I don't care what gaming companies think about it. I buy the hardware and the games if the companies involved don't treat me like a pirate to begin with. I have enough games that I can skip any good game from a bad company and not run out of games to play.
 
relapse808 said:
I dont think this is right, but I could be wrong. I remember when Sony went after bleem and as far as I remember sony lost that battle. Now if I download the game that piracy. If I bought the disk its more grey area.
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You're correct about bleem! and Sony: bleem! took one for the team and ensured that emulation would be legal in the future, but they sadly went out of business as a result of the FUD and the prolonged legal battle.

I'm not sure why Sony went after them in the first place: Either the original Playstation wasn't sold at a loss like modern non-Nintendo consoles, or Sony was afraid they wouldn't sell already-manufactured systems (unlikely given how many they kept making on an ongoing basis), or Sony was afraid that emulation might encourage piracy or create gaps where developers didn't have to pay licensing fees. Odds are it was just a "jealous and vengeful control freak thing" like usual.
 
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Seeing as a large part of the revenue model is moving to online transactions and subscriptions, I think it is safe to say that Sony or Microsoft will not only prefer you to buy their system, they will take steps to ensure that you have to.

I doubt that it will be as easy to emulate the new systems as people speculate.
 
Paradoxex said:
Seeing as a large part of the revenue model is moving to online transactions and subscriptions, I think it is safe to say that Sony or Microsoft will not only prefer you to buy their system, they will take steps to ensure that you have to.

I doubt that it will be as easy to emulate the new systems as people speculate.
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I don't think we're saying it'll be easy. I bet the DRM/TPM shit will be quite difficult to break.
 
You could wrapper the entire experience which would have terrible system performance or you could simulate the software layer which would be hard to do. I can see the XboxOne being easier to accomplish on newer PC's with Win8.1 as they get the newer DX paths and that would require no extra work.

The good news is, you can do all of this much easier now seeing as it all runs on the same basic instruction set as every PC out there. Unless these AMD Jag cores have a hidden instruction set or each console has some sort of DRM check, much like phones and locked boot loaders.
 
bigdogchris said:
So you condone pirating games and excuse it as "It's just 1 or 2"?
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I'd be super interested in as well - not from a piracy standpoint but because the hardware/display for my PC setup is vastly superior.

I'm a huge huge fan of the Forza series from Microsoft -- however with MS's wonky and retarded rollout of the Xboxone, I honestly don't know if I want to drop 500 dollars on a purpose built spy machine. (im exaggerating, but still valid idea).

Would be awesome if I could just buy the game (that's where they make all their money anyway) and load it up on my PC.

I do find it hilarious that for all the "unified/cloud/everything in one place" talk that MS has been doing, you think they would actually love to implement some sort of virtual Xbox software that's able to load up a game direct from a (legal) disc and play it on your PC. I'd be happy to pay $100 for the software, and then games on top of that. Let's face it: as PC guys, console hardware will never impress us. Why not tap into the market that is there of people who want to pay for and play games on their PC, but don't want to drop 500 dollars on something that's already woefully underpowered vs our normal rigs.
 
Are console games made on a PC/Mac or on a console hooked up to a keyboard/mouse? If they are made on a computer I don't see why you wouldn't be able to emulate them on your pc.
 
i have a feeling it will be much more likely, as they are basically computers now instead of proprietary home made chips etc etc
 
This is fairly academic for some years. Just be happy that the 8 cores in the new systems will mean that PC ports will really take advantage of the multi-cores PCs have had for ages... and GPU compute will be used more.
 
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