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PS4 vs PC.
- Thread starter AlexStenka
- Start date
jonneymendoza
Supreme [H]ardness
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Take a game, put it in 1024x560 witch is what most games run on ps3 nowadays, turn on fxaa v1,disable af, put setting to low or a combination of low and medium abd target between 20-30fps
Than you'll have a ps3, pretty sure the latest amd apu can run this
My phone can run this
Electricpower
n00b
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I am about to shut you down with an epic serving of embarrassment and ownage so epic that even Chuck Norris would facepalm from the epic fail you posted.
2005 PC hardware playing BATTLEFIELD 3 and WEAK notebook GPU playing Crysis in second video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abGW1bk1nmM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E1rvJAMC78
BOOM! SON!!!
The reason why we upgrade is because the GPU manufacturers play a corrupt con game in where they stop making driver optimizations for older products which makes performance drop in new games which in turn makes us have to shell out money to buy a new video card.
A video card is only as good as the drivers that support it. Case in point is that AMD's HD7000 series was getting owned by Nvidia's 600 series, but then AMD did some serious driver optimizations that now made them lead ahead of Nvidia in game benchmarks.
They also play this same con game in the supercomputer market. The Nvidia Geforce Titan is actually a version of the Tesla K20 that that they raise the price to like $3,000, but all they did was change the BIOS code on the card and removed some software code in the drivers so that it has limited compute performance.
So if you said that we PC gamers are getting raped by the video card manufacture's con games while you guys on consoles get full potential then I would agree, but your above statement about optimizations is false. It's the con game that is the reason. A good hacker could make older GPU's work with new games very well and unlock them to work as super computer cards also.
D
Deleted member 88227
Guest
Dammit, someone beat me to it. I've been trying to gather parts from 2005/2006 to do this exact same thing. Still gonna do it though.
dgz
Supreme [H]ardness
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The video footage is not proof enough, though his statement that drivers kills hardware potential is true. It's an industry, not a charity...
Killzone shown at PS4 event runs at 30fps?! I'd be tempted to buy a console and get some sort of KB+M adapter (3rd party or otherwise) but I'm not playing games at a paltry 30fps.
Keep in mind it was an alpha and that dev kit only had half the RAM they do now. EA said their target for bf4 is 60fps at 1080P
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Not to mention a Titan alone is what.. $1000US???
love when people dont bother to factor in price...
build a comparable PC to a PS4 for $500.....
D
Deleted member 88227
Guest
That's impossible.. well sort of impossible.
The PS4 does not exist. Kind of hard to build a "comparable" PC to something that's just specs on paper.
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That's impossible.. well sort of impossible.
The PS4 does not exist. Kind of hard to build a "comparable" PC to something that's just specs on paper.
Well in his defense AMD is releasing the same APU on the market, but it might be a bit weaker.
D
Deleted member 88227
Guest
But they haven't yet is my point.
I guess people don't appreciate gaming from a couch on a big tv vs in front of your monitor with headphones? gaming HTCPs are not exactly common.
These are 2 very different markets, no once is going to convince a pc gamer that a 'lowly' console could possibly be worth it, the master race will not accept it
These are 2 very different markets, no once is going to convince a pc gamer that a 'lowly' console could possibly be worth it, the master race will not accept it
D
Deleted member 88227
Guest
I guess people don't appreciate gaming from a couch on a big tv vs in front of your monitor with headphones? gaming HTCPs are not exactly common.
These are 2 very different markets, no once is going to convince a pc gamer that a 'lowly' console could possibly be worth it, the master race will not accept it
You don't need an "HTPC" to hook one to modern televisions. Almost all televisions these days have HDMI outputs and nearly all GPUs have HDMI output as well.
Fail to see your reasoning?
He should have used 1280x720 res or lower, DX9, low to med settings, no AA - 2x AA at most. I'm sure we'll be able to maintain about 20 - 30 fps for all games.
D
Deleted member 88227
Guest
Read his comments. Those aren't his benchmarks. He just copied them from other sources and put them together into one. Also one of the CPUs he claimed one of the benchmarks used was released in mid-late 2006, not 2005. Granted I think that's still within' reason since the PS3 was released in late 2006 as well; but the point of the argument is; If a 360 can do it, then a PC built around the time a 360 was released should be able to do it as well.
Thus I am still in the search for hardware around 2005, so I can do my own benchmarks.
Thus I am still in the search for hardware around 2005, so I can do my own benchmarks.
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
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Don't forget the reduced draw distance, poly count, and really low detail textures... and I bet the PC could maintin a higher frame rate
BTW the ATi AMD Radeon x1800XL was released before the xbox and it totally destroys it in terms of performance....
You guys are still arguing about graphics? Are ya'll ever going to learn that the PC suffers from a problem of implementation.
KEYBOARD, MOUSE, DESK, CHAIR... those are the problems.
Sony and MS have brought everything to the living room with the comfort of a controller. Inluding what got me into PC gaming all those years ago with Quake, multiplayer.
The majority of people do not want to sit in front of a desk. That doesn't seem enjoyable to most. That and most people have moved to laptops or the desktops they are buying do not even have discreet graphics.
The market just isn't there. That and the PC markets seems to think they shouldn't have to pay for anything.
KEYBOARD, MOUSE, DESK, CHAIR... those are the problems.
Sony and MS have brought everything to the living room with the comfort of a controller. Inluding what got me into PC gaming all those years ago with Quake, multiplayer.
The majority of people do not want to sit in front of a desk. That doesn't seem enjoyable to most. That and most people have moved to laptops or the desktops they are buying do not even have discreet graphics.
The market just isn't there. That and the PC markets seems to think they shouldn't have to pay for anything.
Most people don't have their pc in the living room, that's why. And you're not going to connect your mouse and keyboard and sit on your couch. You could, but it's very different from a console. Can't compare the two.
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YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
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No, they're not
I use my laptop with a wireless controller to play games, it also has a Blu-ray player and a wireless keyboard and mouse = no cables other than the one to hook the laptop up to the TV, power plug and wireless receiver
burningrave101
[H]F Junkie
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The biggest difference between the PC and the PS4 is the gaming community. With the PC you're mostly restricted to gaming with other computer nerds that have high-end gaming PC's whereas with consoles you're able to get online and connect with a lot more friends in real life and just a general wider community of gamers.
I have a PS3 and a mid range PC. I LIKE both. Though the PS3 has cost me 299.99+166.99 for a 250GB SSD, also paid 20.00 for a BR TV remote thingy for it. So It has cost me almost 500.00 before buying games @ about 20.00 a pop (GT5, FF13, Castlevania, Oblivion//Skyrm, Street Fighter, Sega games etc.)
I have 7 TB of storage 2 TB in my Centria router 5TB in PC and a 256GB boot/OS SSD. I use my PC more and more as a universal media storage device to feed my TV rather than a PC, and the mini hdmi> 25 foot hdmi cable from the 560Ti to run old emulators to my 55inch HDTV with better than original resolutions and the ability to game save when I want to take a break. (NES/Sega gen/CD/PS1/Saturn/MAME etc)
Entertainment wise I can play old games (emulation PC HDMI out) with my PC) or Steam Games with XBOX controller. Then new games (PS3 HDMI out or Netflix + Amazon Prime+Youtube App on PS3 on my HDTV. I Can get a Roku box for 90-ish for even more low cost content as well.
I could sit in my room easily all day and play a couple PS3 games, watch youtube, watch a Netflix/Amazon movie or 2 in HD and 5.1 audio, download some shows newer content on my HDMI/PC 2nd port flip back to ps3 on HDMI 1 port, flip back and stream some media files or play emulated games. I exercise and do yoga though to break up the monotony, but the aount of entertainment with a PC+PS3+Roku box is just never-ending imho.
I plan to pick up a PS4 when GT6 OR FFXX comes out next and looks interesting. (Sounds like it WILL with 8GB ram for more HQ textures and GDD5 speeds) When no more interesting PS3 titles are being produced too then I will obviously want it) Then put in an SSD, and keep using my PC for media content/emulation etc. As far as getting a new PC CPU or GPU upgrade, nah not until a HL3 source engine comes along with TF3/CS(and pushes hardware harder like HL2 did) I prob won't give a shit about upgrading PC for a long time. Titan is overpriced like a mofo, and does not interest me 1 bit until it hits 450 dollars and HL3 is out haha. (Which HL3 wll prob never get a release in the nest 5 years So for now I will catch up on PS3 titles and PS4 titles sometime next year imo, and come back to PC in a couple years or a decade I bet for gaming on it.
TLDRBS = Both are great and they work to gether like peanut butter and jelly time.
I have 7 TB of storage 2 TB in my Centria router 5TB in PC and a 256GB boot/OS SSD. I use my PC more and more as a universal media storage device to feed my TV rather than a PC, and the mini hdmi> 25 foot hdmi cable from the 560Ti to run old emulators to my 55inch HDTV with better than original resolutions and the ability to game save when I want to take a break. (NES/Sega gen/CD/PS1/Saturn/MAME etc)
Entertainment wise I can play old games (emulation PC HDMI out) with my PC) or Steam Games with XBOX controller. Then new games (PS3 HDMI out or Netflix + Amazon Prime+Youtube App on PS3 on my HDTV. I Can get a Roku box for 90-ish for even more low cost content as well.
I could sit in my room easily all day and play a couple PS3 games, watch youtube, watch a Netflix/Amazon movie or 2 in HD and 5.1 audio, download some shows newer content on my HDMI/PC 2nd port flip back to ps3 on HDMI 1 port, flip back and stream some media files or play emulated games. I exercise and do yoga though to break up the monotony, but the aount of entertainment with a PC+PS3+Roku box is just never-ending imho.
I plan to pick up a PS4 when GT6 OR FFXX comes out next and looks interesting. (Sounds like it WILL with 8GB ram for more HQ textures and GDD5 speeds) When no more interesting PS3 titles are being produced too then I will obviously want it) Then put in an SSD, and keep using my PC for media content/emulation etc. As far as getting a new PC CPU or GPU upgrade, nah not until a HL3 source engine comes along with TF3/CS(and pushes hardware harder like HL2 did) I prob won't give a shit about upgrading PC for a long time. Titan is overpriced like a mofo, and does not interest me 1 bit until it hits 450 dollars and HL3 is out haha. (Which HL3 wll prob never get a release in the nest 5 years
So for now I will catch up on PS3 titles and PS4 titles sometime next year imo, and come back to PC in a couple years or a decade I bet for gaming on it. TLDRBS = Both are great and they work to gether like peanut butter and jelly time.
Not many of my friends play games on xbox or playstation and if they do they certainly don't play online. Many of my mate's don't all have high end pc's either. They don't really care if they have to play on low as long as the fps is reasonable.
Sixthsense
I Suck Fat Ones
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Make sense to me
BladeVenom
Supreme [H]ardness
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You don't need a high end PC to game with.
It also has a more diverse community since consoles aren't popular in every country. You also generally get a more mature community om the PC.
On the other hand, if you love gaming with immature 12 year olds who's vocabulary consists mostly of four letter words, get a console.
Disposed
Supreme [H]ardness
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More mature? That greatly depends on the game, games like call of duty are no better. And consoles are more popular than pc gaming just about everywhere on the planet. I love the " facts" people pull from their assess to make on group look better than the next.
Hypocrite
limitedaccess
Supreme [H]ardness
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Actually console popularity is only really higher in what are considered "western" countries (US, Canada, UK, Australia, etc) and Japan (Japan is actually unique in Asia in this regard). PC gaming is more popular elsewhere (rest of Asia, Eastern Europe, South America). Of course the market (in terms of monetary value) is bigger since the amount of wealth is higher in those areas and they are more consumer driven. In terms of strictly population however PC gaming is still more popular globally.
In some ways this is similar to the American Sports vs global sports situation with how strong commercially NA sports are relative to their actual global popularity (the most prominent example of this being American football).
Edit: Just to add you can see how this dynamic is also playing out in game development. You'll notice how some of the more PC focused efforts are developed and catering more to the tests of areas where PC gaming is more popular (eg. Blizzard) or are from Asia (non Japan) or more Eastern European developers.
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At first I was like
And then I was like
You're beyond high if you think the PS4 is going to be more capable than SLI titans. In fact, that's so beyond the stretch of ones imagination that any time I read a post from you, the first thing I'll think of is "oh, that's that guy who thinks PS4 is more capable then SLI Titans"
Yes, consoles do more with less, no argument from me there. But they don't do THAT much more with THAT much less. And for someone who pulled the biggest turd out his ass in recent history on this forum, I find it odd you're criticizing people for pulling "facts out of their asses" At least everyone else is within the realm of possibility.
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He "is" correct in this one regard though: When you code directly to the hardware, rather through several abstract API's, you gain performance. So you need less hardware on a dedicated system to gain the same results as one you code to at a higher level. So in terms of performance of games/applications, the PS4 at launch will be more powerful them 99% of PC's out there, due to very low level optimizations. In terms of pure number crunching power though, its a blowout in favor of PCs.
lcampbell89
n00b
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Definitely will be ordering one!
You just assume that it's literally going to always be a flat performance win in every single case ever... it might be worth a decent chunk, it might not be worth anything.
One thing that blows is the crappy state of DX11 multithreading -- driver's implementations are not exceedingly good or just not there. I have the latest AMD driver for my 7870 and the driver reports that it doesn't support driver command lists. The consoles can and do thread batch submission (and you technically can do hacky things like write directly to the GPU command buffer, but MS apparently doesn't like you doing that kind of stuff).
I'm working on a hobby engine, it's DX11 -- so I did some simple, possibly shitty benchmarks. It's NOT a real world workload, but some insight into the performance costs might be interesting. Maybe I'll do something more involved / in depth in the future, but for now this should at least be some interesting food for thought. I have a (overclocked) Q6600 / 7870:
1. Just initialized and flipping buffers, spinning my wheels at literally over 9000 fps. Windows and whatever it's doing in the background is meaningless, the framerate is so comically inflated that you can't even get a meaningful number.
2. Set some state, shaders, texture, etc, and flip flop between difference ones to try and irritate the driver's state caching a bit. Do this 2048x per frame, make a total of 32768 draw calls, drawing a total of 16,777,216 triangles.
CPU time: About 9ms, so around 110 fps. That's a LOT of draw calls, and quite a lot of state changing going on in the back. (BF3 was about 1500 - 2000 draw calls per frame I think they said in a paper, and I often saw Crysis 2 under 1000 while playing it since r_displayinfo tells you). I closed the profiler without writing the number, but I think it was of all that CPU time, 28% of it came from draw calls (so about 2.52ms). On a more modern CPU, that'll be cheaper yet. It's not free, there's obviously a cost, but no, it's far from horrific. The raw DrawPrimitive() calls are not likely to be a problem, on their own they're pretty cheap. Setting state and doing other shit in the background will probably be your biggest worry (culling, etc).
GPU time: Lots, the program is completely GPU bound in this case. I need to cut down on this for any performance gain whatsoever.
Dropping the draw calls down to 2048 (and a more realistic number), they've subsequently become somewhat of a blip. Of course, if you're a AAA dev, every millisecond is going to be critical, but as of now, you can trust that DX10/11 is pretty efficient. So yes, tens of thousands of draw calls are passable on PC now (how smart of an idea it is, is another story) with very good performance. If you're thinking SLI Titans == PS4's 7870, you're out of your mind. The Xbox passes through DX as well (and MS, I've read, does not like you doing certain things like writing directly to the command buffer) so there is a bigger batch overhead there than the PS3.
So in a nutshell, DX9 should be dead and buried already, 64 bit binaries should be the norm, and it seems like, somewhat ironically, the next gen consoles will probably help spawn better PC versions. Engines still chugging away on DX9 and other legacy shit are part of the problem. It will only continue to improve in the future. Multithreaded rendering in DX11 is a pretty killer feature, it being more reliable would be very rad indeed.
Bonus picture from testing of several million triangles, each pixel is actually a 2 triangle sprite.
http://i3.minus.com/inwKSknP4kYzE.png
Basically, this:
Yes, there is an overhead, it exists, it really does, no one is denying it (and not just for PC, the 360 is worse off than the PS3 for example). No, it's nowhere near as awful as it once was, not even remotely close. But if you're just spewing "IT'S OVERHEAD / API / BUZZWORD / TO THE METAL" over and over, expecting it to stick because you heard it elsewhere, then I'll probably assume you've either dumbed down your argument so much that it's lost nearly all relevance or don't know what you're talking about. It may simply not be your performance problem at all, it may simply not affect shit in your game.
Drheadbang
Limp Gawd
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The issue also is programming time, as well as the 3 different versions that have to be pounded out.
BladeVenom
Supreme [H]ardness
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Proof? You just pulled that out of your ass.
Then stop doing it.
Have you ever heard of China? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China It's the biggest country in the world by population. There's kind of a ban on consoles there. http://www.zdnet.com/cn/china-reviewing-game-consoles-ban-7000010395/
Disposed
Supreme [H]ardness
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So a country has a ban on consoles and somehow my statement is inaccurate? They ban google too so is it now wrong to say google is the most widely used search engine in the world too?
Worldwide consoles games outsell the PC versions over 3 to one most of the time so prove ME wrong.
Twist facts and try and play games with demographics all you want but what i said is 100% fact whether you like it or not and is easily backed up by good old fasioned proof. The arguments stating otherwise rely on bullshit about demographics and playing games with words. Fact is worldwide consoles are more popular.
You can try and pull the shit about them only being more popular in the so called western countries but its bullshit. Its pretty easy to look at worldwide game sales and draw a simple conclusion. When the console versions of a game = 80+% of the sales its damn hard to make an argument against what i said.
Blue_Scholar
Gawd
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All in all my penis is bigger than a forbes magazine. You simply can't build a bigger magazine than my penis.
Outamyhead
Supreme [H]ardness
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Unless they turn around the porting process and go from PC to console, we are still going to get games limited to what the PS4 can handle, I will probably get one when a PS4 only title gets released, but I will give the console a year to mature first.