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Programming/Level Design/Screencasting computer - proposed build

D

DreamBliss

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 28, 2005
Messages
205
So here is my proposed build for an Intel machine...

GPU (Either one - ATI or Nvidia - UPDATED!):
ASUS HD7750-1GD5-V2 AMD Radeon HD 7750
OR
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 650 OC

Case:
http://www.amazon.com/GAMMA-Classic...DKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358439985&sr=1-34

CPU:
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-i3-2120...1358438111&sr=1-2&keywords=Intel+Core+i3-2100

MOBO:
http://www.amazon.com/MSI-LGA1155-U...&qid=1358420578&sr=1-1&keywords=MSI+ZH77A-G43

DVD:
http://www.amazon.com/Lite--Super-A...PDKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358433375&sr=1-3

PSU (UPDATED!)
Corsair Builder Series CX 600 Watt ATX/EPS 80 PLUS
OR
Enermax NAXN 500W ATX12V Power Supply, ENP500AST

RAM:
http://www.amazon.com/Patriot-Memor...f=sr_1_15?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358432390&sr=1-15

HDD (UPDATED!):
WD Blue Desktop 500GB

And is my proposed build for an AMD machine:

GPU (Either one - ATI or Nvidia - UPDATED!):
ASUS HD7750-1GD5-V2 AMD Radeon HD 7750
OR
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 650 OC

Case:
http://www.amazon.com/GAMMA-Classic...DKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358439985&sr=1-34

CPU (UPDATED!):
AMD Phenom II X4 965 AM3 3.4Ghz 512KB 45NM 125W 4000MHZ

MOBO:
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-M5A97-R2...TF8&qid=1358420638&sr=1-1&keywords=ASUS+M5A97

DVD:
http://www.amazon.com/Lite--Super-A...PDKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358433375&sr=1-3

PSU:
Corsair Builder Series CX 600 Watt ATX/EPS 80 PLUS
OR
Enermax NAXN 500W ATX12V Power Supply, ENP500AST

RAM:
http://www.amazon.com/Patriot-Memor...f=sr_1_15?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358432390&sr=1-15

HDD (UPDATED!):
WD Blue Desktop 500GB

I'm too tired to go through the links and list the parts by name. I need to go to bed, get some sleep. May edit this thread later to make it better.

My goal is $400.00, $500.00 with shipping and tax. I intend to run UDK, Cube 2 based games, Wings 3D, Gimp, either a hardware capture card or a screen capture program for video tutorials.

Any help you can get me knocking down this price would be appreciated. Understand that I spend a LOT of time researching these choices. The PSU, for example, comes from a recommended list at another hardware website, placed on that list because of its build quality. I'm looking for the highest quality I can get here. More important than speed. But I also want to future proof this a little and get a Sata III (6.0) board (for example.)

If you do make a suggestion please also tell me why you made your suggestion. Just to be sure I understand. Not a hardware geek here, not up-to-date on a lot of stuff, but I want to learn.

OK, bed time now... Hey thanks for your help - it's really appreciated!
 
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Well one thing I think you can lower is the PSU and maybe use that to boost the CPU or just save money in general. Doing what you're doing I think you will benefit tremendously from more cores and more memory, especially screen capturing which can cripple a system depending on the settings.

Something like this should do fine for either build:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371045
 
Carrying over from your memory thread...the lowest CPU in a particular line isn't necessarily the best value.

For example, the AMD CPU you list is the FX-4300. Lowest end of the most recent Vishera line, 2 real cores, 4 "clusters". But also just 4MB of level 3 cache.

For just $10 more you could get the FX-6300. 3 real cores (6 "clusters"). But it also has double the level 3 cache: 8MB. Which will increase performance, making it a better value than the FX-4300.

As to the power supply, that particular OCZ ZT 650W (made by Great Wall) infamously failed HardOCP's testing. There are superior options out there for $85. My preferred quality options are as I've stated often in the past: something built by Seasonic, Delta or Super Flower. Of course, there are other fine particular supplies, but those manufacturers never put out anything less than high quality at the current time.

First off, you really don't need 650W with that build. A quality choice for less money: Antec NEO ECO 520C 520W ($45-$56). Made by Seasonic.

And as an option at an even lower power output (but more than enough for your build): Antec BP430 430W ($48). Made by Delta.

And a final option: Seasonic S12II Bronze 430W ($60). Made by them, of course.

If you are really aching for a power supply over 600W, even though you won't need it with either of those builds: Seasonic M12II Bronze 620W ($85, has modular cables the above three don't have).

Other good options out there; those are just a few I know are high quality supplies.

For the video card, I'm no fan of the quality of ATI drivers. Either right now or at any time in the past. In terms of better/faster Nvidia choices for the money than that $90 GT 440 you linked, there are a few in the current "600" series that are a year newer/faster technology than that 440.

Such as this GT 640 by MSI ($80). Or if you want 2GB instead of 1GB of video memory (only really useful for high res games and/or gigantic screen resolutions), a 2GB GT 640 by EVGA ($88). Both of those have mail in rebates, so your end cost will be even less.

As to the memory, Patriot is quality stuff. You can save money, though, by going for non-heatsinked stuff that's not designed specifically for overclocking gamers as what you linked is. I'd try to find 16GB of 1600MHz RAM (with 9-9-9-24 or faster default timing) at 1.5V or less at a similar price. Usually 4 sticks of 4GB each; 8GB sticks are usually more expensive. For video work especially, more memory=better. I'd look into less expensive options, but I don't have much more time ;).

For the HD, you will find an absolutely gigantic speed difference overall if you get, for example a 128GB (or less) SSD for the OS and installed programs and have a larger spinning disc of rust for your screencasts and other personal data. For example, the Samsung 840 120GB is $100. Its the biggest speed difference for the money you will see among any component.

But if figuring a SSD as well a spinning disk drive into the build is $100 more than your budget, guess it will have to wait. For a spinning disk, the WD Blacks are good choices.
 
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Didn't bother clicking all your links just yet, but I did happen to see that you selected an OCZ PSU... whatever tech site recommended that to you, I would stop going to it.

With that being said, we have some sticky questions in this forum that we will like you to answer for us so we can make sure we are helping you build the best bang for buck quality PC you're hard earned money can buy. Please leave it formatted the same, as it makes it easier for us to quickly check the information we need so we can start searching for parts for your build.
 
Hey thank you everyone for your help!

As to thread formatting, was just going to add the names of the devices I had listed. Probably be changing CPU and GPU now.

Curious about a few things, and I will research the stickies here later. Firstly the the new video card. It's actually a DDR3 (checked the manufacture's website), the ones I listed are GDDR5. Isn't GDDR5 better, faster, newer? Or am I missing something here?

Secondly I'm under the impression that for a future SLI or Crossfire setup I would need a minimum of a 600w PSU. This wrong? Can I get by with a 500-600w, or even a 400-500w? For PSUs I really only care about one thing. The protections. I lost a computer once because of power surges getting through my powerstrips. I now have a surge suppressor, and may buy another, better one. But I want a PSU that will shield my components. Secondly is build quality, and that includes providing power correctly to various components.

Anyhow just need to get this right. Do I need anything over 500w? If not I can shave a good $50.00 off my build. Will ignore the website I found. Problem is they were listing these links based on reviews from johnnyguru or whatever the site is called and a few others. So either someone is interpreting things wrong or every review site they listed is crap. Is there a good, at-a-glance resource anywhere to compare PSUs and figure out the highest quality ones?

Thanks again!
 
1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
- I answered this already. Gaming (UDK, Cube 2, Unity 3D, FarCry - mostly 1 year or older titles for now.) Casting Video Tutorials. Modelling. Gimp.

2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
- $500.00 w/tax and shipping.

3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.
USA. WA., 98607

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.
- Case, MOBO, CPU, GPU (unless on-board Intel video is good enough), RAM, HDD or SSD, DVD or BD Writer, PSU, 1080p HD Video Capture Card (optional.)

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
- 32" LED LCD TV (Monitor), 750GB WD Black SATA 3.0 or 6.0 HDD (mostly full), Logitech MK360 wireless keyboard/mouse, I have a device to hook up Ethernet for wireless so I will use that to get online.

6) Will you be overclocking?
- No.

7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? What size is it?
- 32" LED LCD TV, 1080p (1920x1080).

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
- Next month.

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video (as a backup or main GPU)? UEFI? etc.
- Need onboard sound with optical out, prefer no onboard video unless its good enough for my needs, full HDMI or mini-HDMI adapter, prefer SATA 6.0, prefer USB 3.0 and USB 2.0, prefer UEFI, prefer ability to use Crossfire or SLI - all for future proofing. Will have multiple HDD or HDD and SSDs installed.

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?
- I will be using Windows 7 and Windows XP SP3 in a dual-boot environment. Probably install Windows XP SP3 as 32 bit and Windows 7 as 64 bit. Open to advice here. Need to be able to set multiple partitions on HDD or SSD.

If you need more info just ask.
 
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Deathbliss said:
Curious about a few things, and I will research the stickies here later. Firstly the the new video card. It's actually a DDR3 (checked the manufacture's website), the ones I listed are GDDR5. Isn't GDDR5 better, faster, newer? Or am I missing something here?
Click to expand...

You are missing that for video cards--much like motherboards--speed is processor first, memory second. Faster memory type on an older generation video card rarely means that its going to be faster than a newer generation card at a similar spot in the lineups (which the 640 & 440 are). And as you are looking to "future proof", the 640 is a better investment.

If you want GDDR5 memory for some reason (even though its the processor on the card that accounts the majority of the speed), you'll have to move up to the faster GTX 650. The GT 640 doesn't come with GDDR5 memory at retail. There is an EVGA model for $110, but it also has a mail in rebate which takes it down to your original card-quoted price of $90. If looking at no mail in rebate, there is the initially less expensive PNY model at $100.

Specifications:

For that previous generation Asus GT 440 you linked:
Memory speed: 3200 MHz
Memory bandwidth: 51.2 GB/s
Bus width: 128 bit
Bus interface: PCIe 2.0 x16
Processor core clock: 810MHz
Pixel fill rate: 3.24 GP/s
Texture fill rate: 12.96 GT/s
GFLOPS (gigaflops): 311.04
GFLOPS/watt: 4.78
TDP (thermal design power): 65W
API support: DirectX 11.0, OpenGL 4.3, OpenCL 1.1

For the MSI GT 640 model I linked before:
Memory speed: 1782 MHz (slower than above)
Memory bandwidth: 28.5 GB/s (less than above)
Bus width: 128 bit (same as above)
Bus interface: PCIe 3.0 x16 (newer than above)
Processor core clock: 900 MHz (faster than above, as well as one generation newer)
Pixel fill rate: 14.4 GP/s (much, much faster; its where the newer processor really shows its stripes)
Texture fill rate: 28.8 GT/s (again, much much faster)
GFLOPS: 691.2 (much more)
GFLOPS/watt: 10.63 (much more)
TDP: 65W
API support: DirectX 11.1, OpenGL 4.3, OpenCL 1.2 (the first & last are both newer versions than the above; better for future-proofing)

Finally, both the EVGA & PNY GTX 650:
Memory speed: 5000 MHz
Memory bandwidth: 80 GB/s
Bus interface: PCIe 3.0 x16
Bus width: 128 bit
Processor core clock: 1058MHz
Pixel fill rate: 16.9 GP/s
Texture fill rate: 33.8 GT/s
GFLOPS: 812.5
GFLOPS/watt: 12.7
TDP: 64W
API support: DirectX 11.1, OpenGL 4.3, OpenCL 1.2

It blows both the 440 & 640 above out of the water, at the same price as the old 440 (after mail in rebate-"MIR"). But its $25 more than the 640 after MIR. The 640 is a better value than the 440 (again, processor>memory).

As to the power supply, HardOCP's recommendations are king ;). I'd avoid that OCZ ZT, as mentioned by Danny Bui & I. If you are going SLI in the future (you didn't say before), 500W+ should be fine.

In addition to the Seasonic M12II Bronze 620W (won the HardOCP Silver award) & Antec NEO ECO 520C 520W I mentioned above, there is also the Seasonic G-550 550W ($86 from Amazon, but out of stock) that won the HardOCP Gold award.

The unfortunate thing about power supplies is that quality in a certain wattage range costs money. Moreso than most other computer components. You are unlikely to find great bargains on quality power supplies...unless you are lucky.
 
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OK so the key for video cards is the processor core clock - got it.

Is a 500-600w PSU going to be enough for me to run a DVD or BD drive, 1-3 HDD or SSD drives in some combination or another, a dual core or quad core processor, one video card and another later?

The Crossfire/SLI thing is, once again, for future proofing. But if I can save $10.00 or more going with a card that does not support this feature, its easier to get a newer, better card later than anything else, so I don't mind some sacrifices there. I do need full size HDMI out however, unless the card comes with an adapter for mini to full size HDMI. Who was the idiot that changed the HDMI spec anyway? You spend $50.00 on a cord, then video cards come out with this mini bull. Tack on another $20.00 at least for a new cord or adapter :(

Looking at your links, PSU and video card shopping, changing my AMD build CPU to a quad phenom I think, been hearing good things about the black series even though its 2 years old.

UPDATE!!!
I'm now budgeting $60.00 for a PSU, or at least that is the goal. So I have listed two new PSUs in my proposed build, the name is the link for easier reading. I'm not ignoring anyone's suggestions here, just assuming I can get away with a 500-600w PSU and found these at Amazon with free shipping, from the manufacturers most people seem to recommend. I will go through the PSUs linked here and update these links if I find something better. I will try to list two of any item, so there is some flexibility and choice.

Note: I should add that this is my proposed Amazon build. I also have a NewEgg build. See where I can save money. I may post the links to that or just take what I learn for this build and apply. So far though I'm saving about $30.00 at Amazon, putting me under my $600.00 max limit. I'll post a spreadsheet perhaps with everything laid out. You'll need Open Office Calc!

Thanks for your patience and all your help so far!
 
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On my phone so I can't make a detailed response, but numbers don't mean anything. Just because the core clock on one GPU is higher than the core clock in another GPU does not mean the higher clocked GPU is better.
 
Dumb video card question...

Is it even worth it to get a 192bit GDDR5 pci express 2.0 card over a 3.0 or 2.1? I mean is it better to get newer PCI express cards, even if their specs are lower?

Dumber video card question...

Is there any quick and easy (and sortable) way to determine if a GPU is good or not?

Dumbest video card questions...
Could I get a 64 or 128 bit 800MHz Crossfire or SLI card with the intention of getting a twin later? Would that give me 128-256bit and 1600MHz all total - does it work that way? If it does, is it worth it to take the extra money I save and get an SSD? Will that help with software based screen recording? With running games at high detail and recording them?

UPDATE:
OK, so I am slowly developing a sense of the budget I want per part. Here is what I have so far:

Case = $40.00
CPU = $100.00
RAM = $40.00
MOBO = $100.00
PSU = $60.00
GPU = $60.00 - $120.00
DVD Writer = $20.00
HDD or SSD - $100.00

Spending less is always better :D These are somewhat flexible, not set in stone. Well they have to be. Can't get a dual core Intel for under $100.00 so far as I can tell :( The idea here is to shoot for these prices, if it goes a little over that's OK. If it goes a little (or a lot) under, awesome. CPU and GPU are easily replaceable. I may cut the GPU down to something older and half the price. Still toying with that. But the MOBO has to be flexible for future upgrades.

Well I'm off to look for cheaper mobos...
 
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It's all marketing. Just like I said with the clock speed. Not a single card on the market today surpasses the bandwidth provided by PCI express 2.0. Therefore it makes ZERO difference if a card states it's 2.0, 2.1, 3.0.

Getting a newer generation GPU (or any component) is always recommended because it will almost always last longer just due to driver/firmware support and updates provided by the manufacturer. Eventually they drop support of older hardware, especially with GPUs, so the latest generation card you can get will have that support longer.

The quick and easy way is to view legit benchmarks from good tech sites such as hardocp.com.

Additionally, Danny_Bui has a build for another member in another thread that should fit your needs. Since you already have a Windows license, you don't have to get the $93 software, thus making the total to $520.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039526352&postcount=26

That is about as good as you're going to get for a gaming rig in the $500 range. On top of that, even though the board does support CrossfireX it's NOT needed for a single display setup and this will not change in the future. When the time comes for you to upgrade your video solution in the coming years it's best to go with a single GPU upgrade since you are gaming on a single display. If you were to game on multiple displays at once, then CrossfireX and SLI become useful.

edit
Just seen your projected build date is sometime next month. Disregard that build suggestion as it will change next month. Bump this thread when you're within' two weeks of buying. Prices change so frequently, what is a good bang for your buck this week might not be the same good value next week.
 
Deathbliss said:
OK so the key for video cards is the processor core clock - got it.
Click to expand...

Nope. Sorry, didn't detail things as much as was necessary. What I was trying to get at listing the differences between the different generation GPUs was that its a better value to go with newer generation chips. Especially if someone is worried about "future proofing", as per what Skillz detailed above.

The most important difference between different video cards is the GPU (processor) it uses. As well as benchmarks with other cards and the quality of its drivers. Things like memory speed, core clock and so on are secondary. Two different GPUs are affected by core clock speeds in different ways; its only really relevant between two identical GPUs.

The more important measurements of the specs I listed are the actual performance measurements at the end (pixel & texture fill rates + GFLOPS). As well as the API support (for future proofing). For even more relevant information, will have to search out relevant reviews on sites like HardOCP here.

Deathbliss said:
Is it even worth it to get a 192bit GDDR5 pci express 2.0 card over a 3.0 or 2.1?
Click to expand...
As mentioned by Skillz above, its not really relevant for video performance to go for PCIe 3.0 over 2.1 (or 2.0). The newer version won't increase video performance as video cards currently are nowhere near being able to saturate 2.0's capacity. However, if using the video card for general computing work, "...the new interface (PCIe 3.0) would prove advantageous when used for general purpose computing with technologies like OpenCL, CUDA and C++ AMP" (from Wikipedia).

Deathbliss said:
Is there any quick and easy (and sortable) way to determine if a GPU is good or not?
Click to expand...

In addition to searching out particular GPU types for reviews on HardOCP here, there is a great listing of a giant ton of different cards compared on a large amount of different benchmarks here. Click the benchmark(s) most appropriate for your anticipated usage (and/or power consumption, etc.). and check out the charts.

Deathbliss said:
I do need full size HDMI out however, unless the card comes with an adapter for mini to full size HDMI. Who was the idiot that changed the HDMI spec anyway? You spend $50.00 on a cord, then video cards come out with this mini bull. Tack on another $20.00 at least for a new cord or adapter.
Click to expand...

Yah, for sure. Some of them do come with adapters in the box if they include that damn mini version port; will have to check the product pages and/or the downloadable manuals.

As to CPUs, I personally wouldn't regress to a two year old design. But you are limited by your budget; $100 means compromises. Intels are generally faster right now for everything other than heavily multithreaded workloads. Then again, GIMP which you plan on using is fully mutithread optimized and so on.

Intel i3 dual core Sandy Bridges (year old, higher power consumption, better for overclocking) are $119 & up. Dual core Ivy Bridges (current generation, lower power consumption) are $123 & up. Identical to the AMD FX-4300 mentioned previously. In a month when you plan to buy, those prices may reduce to your intended $100. If they don't, you'll need to be looking at older/slower CPUs (perhaps much slower). Which are normally not as good value for the money as midrange current generation ones. And which is one of the two most important factors on determining how fast your overall system speed is (the other is using a SSD).

For the hard drive, the WD Black is great. But since you are so price constrained, another option is the WD Blue 1TB at $75. Same spindle speed, but a bit slower than the Black and shorter warranty at $15 less.
 
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I would not bother with Tom's Hardware on account of their relatively poor methodologies when it comes to performance measurement. There's a reason why we refer to Tom's Hardware around here as a four letter word.

In addition to the HardOCP reviews that Fritingo mentioned, Anandtech's Bench site is pretty useful:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU12/372
 
OK, well I have a lot to chew on. Was up all night keeping an eye on my grandmother - she woke up sick yesterday. I guess it's yesterday now...

Some confusion and points of contention... I understand that the Phenom x4 BE - as I have listed (I think), was an extremely good processor. Compatible to the current-gen AMD stuff, as AMD didn't really bulldoze anything with their new chips. Maybe they should just be called bull? Anyhow I'm all for using on older CPU that I can upgrade later. Better than the Gateway m405 laptop I'm using (go look that up and have a laugh...) Especially if it can hold its own against newer stuff that costs $50.00 more. Wish I could get an older dual-core hyper-threaded Intel CPU for $100.00!

I still would like to know what my best PSU wattage range is. Minimum usage will be 2 HDD, RAM, MOBO, GPU, CPU, DVD writer. Max usage will add another GPU, a screen capture card and an SSD to the mix. Maybe another fan or two. I think I linked to 550w or 600w PSUs in my last update. These strong enough for my needs?

I would also still like to know if its work it to get an older, cheaper $60.00 GPU that I can Crossfire or SLI later. You tell me I only need this for dual monitors. Huh? I though the point of this was to double your power. Is this another wrong belief of mine? As far as drivers for ATI, I just go here:
http://www.omegadrivers.net/

Never had any trouble with Nvidia or ATI drivers. Never understood this complaint. The only time I have driver issues is when I'm looking for some for Windows 2000 or an 8+ year old laptop :/ So is this the only real reason you have for recommended newer cards? If clock speed, PCIe and memory clock speed are irrelevant, then age should also be irrelevant, correct?

Avoid Tom's hardware like the plague - got it. Same for Overclockers? They recommended that bad PSU...

Speadsheet is done... Can't attach, here is my price breakdown so far:
Code: 
[B]AMD[/B]	        Amazon	NewEgg
CPU	        $98.79	$99.99
MOBO            $94.99      $94.99
RAM	        $36.99	$49.99
GPU	        $107.99	$109.99
PSU	        $59.99	$64.99
HDD	        $64.99	$64.99
SSD	        $94.99	$94.99
DVD	        $17.99	$24.98
CASE	     $35.75      $39.99
CAP	        $119.99	$149.99
		
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Subtotal	$732.46	$794.89
-SSD	        $637.47	$699.90
-CAP 	      $612.47    $644.90
-Both	        $517.48	$549.91[/COLOR]

[B]Intel[/B]		Amazon	NewEgg
CPU	        $118.79	$119.00
MOBO	      $89.99      $89.99
RAM	        $36.99	$49.99
GPU	        $107.99	$109.99
PSU	        $59.99	$64.99
HDD	        $64.99	$64.99
SSD	        $94.99	$94.99
DVD	        $17.99	$24.98
CASE	      $35.75      $39.99
CAP	        $119.99	$149.99
		
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Subtotal	$747.46	$808.90
-SSD 	      $652.47    $713.91
-CAP 	      $627.47    $658.91
-Both	        $532.48	$563.92[/COLOR]
 
I have another dumb question...

ANSWERED: Is this SLI Ready or Crossfire Ready stuff also marketing hype? I mean are there ATI and Nvidia cards that will work for Crossfire or SLI but are not listed as ready?

I left this question but just answered it for myself. Found this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102882

It does support CrossfireX, but isn't listed as such. If I got two of these I'd pay a little over $60.00. Would that give me a 1300MHz (650MHz x 2), 2gig, 128 bit (64 bit x 2) card? I really like this idea if it will work like that. The card also has special tech (so the manufacture says) that aids in video capture. If this is not a good idea tell me why. I want to understand, none of this opinion stuff.

What about this DirectX thing? Will DX10 cards still work for 11? More marketing hype?

Thanks!
 
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Deathbliss said:
Some confusion and points of contention... I understand that the Phenom x4 BE - as I have listed (I think), was an extremely good processor. Compatible to the current-gen AMD stuff, as AMD didn't really bulldoze anything with their new chips. Maybe they should just be called bull? Anyhow I'm all for using on older CPU that I can upgrade later.
Click to expand...
Yeah not always the case with AMD as I had to found out first hand.
Deathbliss said:
I still would like to know what my best PSU wattage range is. Minimum usage will be 2 HDD, RAM, MOBO, GPU, CPU, DVD writer. Max usage will add another GPU, a screen capture card and an SSD to the mix. Maybe another fan or two. I think I linked to 550w or 600w PSUs in my last update. These strong enough for my needs?
Click to expand...
A good quality 500W PSU would fit your needs fine. Might even be enough for Crossfire or SLI depending on which cards you choose. However, I can't recommend the Enermax at all since I can't find a good review for it.
Deathbliss said:
I would also still like to know if its work it to get an older, cheaper $60.00 GPU that I can Crossfire or SLI later. You tell me I only need this for dual monitors. Huh? I though the point of this was to double your power. Is this another wrong belief of mine?
Click to expand...
No it's rarely worth doing a Crossfire or SLI setup with $60 video cards. Some of those $60 cards can't even do Crossfire or SLI. Hell it's not worth doing a SLI/CFX setup with sub $190 video cards in general. This is mainly due to the fact that many of those sub $190 video cards only have 1GB of VRAM. Some games these days can use more than 1GB of VRAM. Combine that with GPU accelerated interfaces you see with Windows 7 and 8, and you have a lot of VRAM usage. While there are sub $190 video cards that have 2GB of VRAM, they're often not fast enough to take advantage of all that VRAM and/or are priced so high that they're not all that cost-effective. It's only at the $190 mark where you start seeing good bang for the buck video cards that have 2GB of VRAM.

In fact, we had to convince a person earlier this week in this forum that his HD 7770 1GB Crossfire plan was a bad idea. Two HD 7770 cards would cost him $230. That's not a good value at all considering the HD 7870 2GB is available around that price range. While the HD 7770 1GB would provide higher performance now, in the long-run it's gonna be extremely limited due to the 1GB of VRAM. Thus the HD 7870 2GB is the better buy due to the 2GB of VRAM and the higher chance of better driver support as it sometimes can take awhile for Crossfire drivers to come out.

In addition, the Crossfire scaling (kinda ignored SLI scaling to be honest) on older GPUs wasn't all that good compared to newer GPU setups. The Crossfire scaling between the HD 7xxx series and the HD 5xxx series are fairly different IIRC. Plus, you won't alway get double your performance. Then there's the issue of driver support which I will touch upon later in this post.

As for the whole "I'm gonna buy one GPU now and buy a second one for Crossfire next year", that's not that great of a plan as pricing on older GPUs may not be low enough in price to justify buying another one. Not to mention that you would be close to the lesser driver updates with those older cards rather than newer cards.
.
Deathbliss said:
As far as drivers for ATI, I just go here:
http://www.omegadrivers.net/
Click to expand...
Holy shit, that's a blast from the past. Last time I used that site was when I had a Radeon 9800 Pro. In any case, I'm not sure why you're bringing up ATI and Omega considering that the ATI brand has been retired. The GPUs are now referred to as AMD, not ATI cards. Not to mention that the Omega drivers stop being relevant several years ago.

Deathbliss said:
Never had any trouble with Nvidia or ATI drivers. Never understood this complaint. The only time I have driver issues is when I'm looking for some for Windows 2000 or an 8+ year old laptop :/ So is this the only real reason you have for recommended newer cards?
Click to expand...
As kinda mentioned earlier, as time goes on, AMD and Nvidia sometimes put less effort in releasing newer drivers for their older video cards. Or just stop altogether. Hell they discontinued support for the HD 4290 onboard GPU in my system about six months ago. And that particular onboard video came out in 2010. Hence why it's generally better to just get a newer card in order to ensure a better chance at getting driver support.

Just to further add to my story: Since the newer AMD drivers do not support the onboard HD 4290, I basically have to disable my HD 4290 in order to use my HD 6850 with that latest drivers since I haven't been able to use two different AMD drivers at the same time. Doesn't appear possible anyway. Luckily I have spare video cards but the ability to use the onbaord video was a huge selling point for me.

Deathbliss said:
If clock speed, PCIe and memory clock speed are irrelevant, then age should also be irrelevant, correct?
Click to expand...
Incorrect. Age is relevant due to the drivers as noted earlier.
Deathbliss said:
Avoid Tom's hardware like the plague - got it. Same for Overclockers? They recommended that bad PSU...
Click to expand...
Yes ignore overclock.net and overclockers.com when it comes to power supplies.


Deathbliss said:
It does support CrossfireX, but isn't listed as such. If I got two of these I'd pay a little over $60.00. Would that give me a 1300MHz (650MHz x 2), 2gig, 128 bit (64 bit x 2) card? I really like this idea if it will work like that. The card also has special tech (so the manufacture says) that aids in video capture. If this is not a good idea tell me why. I want to understand, none of this opinion stuff.
Click to expand...
No it won't work like that. You don't add up the interface or VRAM like that. With two video cards with 1GB a piece in Crossfire, you're still only getting 1GB of VRAM total, not 2GB. Same for the interface. In addition, you would still be limited by the 64bit bus for that GPU. If you're serious about gaming, no 64bit card is gonna do the job, Crossfire or SLI included. In addition, these are the older HD 5xxx series cards. And the low-end ones at that. As such, A) Crossfire scaling isn't gonna be all that good with newer games, B) you'll be closer to not getting solid driver support than with newer HD 7xxx series cards, C) it's not gonna receive that much driver support in the first place considering those are the low-end cards.

Deathbliss said:
Will DX10 cards still work for 11? More marketing hype?
Click to expand...
Yes but you wont get any of the additional features of DX11. Not entirely marketing hype.

So to simplify things, just get one GPU. No Crossfire or SLI. Your budget isn't high enough to where that's a big concern.
 
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Sorry to hear about your grandma, hope she gets better.

Just something brief to add to Danny's better-details posts above: about why I personally don't recommend ATI (now AMD) video cards to friends or family. Basically because they have a long (long) history of major Windows driver issues. They don't affect everyone (as you have experienced), but they have happened and continue.

As in: continual BSODs related to drivers since Windows 4.0, OS/2 Presentation Manager lockups and finally here on XP, desktop lockups running WoW that took them many months to fix (besides again driver related BSODs). Bye bye any unsaved things you were working on in the background. Sometime after that, they started adding to Catalyst drivers a "try to prevent system freeze" setting checkmark box...heh.

Also, despite XP being the most popular Windows OS by far back then, they decided to make their driver control panel using .NET. Something that XP didn't have natively. Back in those days, the .NET install was a 50+MB download & bloated up your registry something awful. And it had security issues. And it was used by very few third party programs. Something other video card companies didn't need (and still don't). And more recently this problem, this one (finally updated after a year as described here) and this one. Among others.

And in terms of making your hardware last, as brought up by Danny, AMD (ATI) also has a history of not supporting older hardware with updated drivers as long as Nvidia does. For example, the latest released Nvidia GeForce driver package (v310.90) supports GPUs all the way back to the circa-2006 "8 series" GPUs. The latest AMD Catalyst driver package (v13.1) support back to the circa-2009 HD5000 series GPUs.

Anyway, GL and hope your grandma gets better soon. When I have more time today or later, will post a build within your specifications that I personally would buy (best value for the money, of course).
 
Fritingo said:
When I have more time today or later, will post a build within your specifications that I personally would buy (best value for the money, of course).
Click to expand...

I'd hold off on that build list man considering that he's planning on buying next month.
 
OK, I think I understand some of this a little better now - thanks.

I just checked the Omega drivers site. Last update was this month, releasing AMD drivers. So how is the site no longer relevant? Last update was 13.1 Catalyst. I'd look there for a driver for your video card that you can't currently use.

I would still like to see the recommended build. I could compare specs and try to figure out what someone else more experience (and up to date) than I would put together.

VRAM - what is this? Are you referring to the RAM the card has, like 1 gig or 2 gig, or something else? Is this the most important element in choosing a GPU outside of age?

Thanks again for all your help and patience!
 
VRAM is short for Video RAM or Video Random Access Memory, so yes it's the memory on the video card. It is something to consider when buying a video card but really only becomes revelant when you start using high resolutions that are above 1080P. At least for now. Since multiple monitor setups have such high resolutions, textures in games tend to take up a lot more VRAM on account of this. However, as Danny pointed out two 2GB cards in a CFX/SLI setup does NOT double the VRAM. The VRAM is mirrored.
 
Deathbliss said:
I just checked the Omega drivers site. Last update was this month, releasing AMD drivers. So how is the site no longer relevant? Last update was 13.1 Catalyst. I'd look there for a driver for your video card that you can't currently use.
Click to expand...
When I talk about Omega drivers, I meant the actual drivers that the Omega Drivers site modified themselves. If you look here, the last stated GPU that the Omega Drivers supported was the HD 3xxx series. AMD is now on the HD 7xxx series.

The site is of some use if you want nothing but driver update news but outside of that, not a terribly relevant site these days. Most computer hardware review sites will let you know when new GPU drivers are out anyway.
Deathbliss said:
VRAM - what is this? Are you referring to the RAM the card has, like 1 gig or 2 gig, or something else? Is this the most important element in choosing a GPU outside of age?
Click to expand...
Video RAM. Yes that is the RAM that the card has. No it is not the most important element in choosing a GPU. In order to choose a GPU, you have to take a holistic approach. In other words, you have to look at the GPU as a whole, not just the invidividual specs themselves. There is no single most important element in a GPU that over-rides everything else. Specs sheets won't tell you the whole performance story. For that you must read actual GPU reviews by sites like HardOCP.com, Xbitlabs, Anandtech, Bit-tech.net, etc.

EDIT: For once Skillz beat me to it :D
 
I don't think that's the kind of video capture you are wanting. You want to capture video from an external source right? What they are referring to is recording what's displaying on the screen.
 
No, recording from the screen is exactly what I want! Looks like all the MSI cards have that feature...

On an aside, outside of Amazon (supporting this forums) NewEgg and TigerDirect, is there any other place to get components on the cheap? Don't say Geeks.com or Fry's either, or I'll toss an iron skillet in your general direction!
 
Deathbliss said:
No, recording from the screen is exactly what I want! Looks like all the MSI cards have that feature...
Click to expand...
It's not a specific hardware feature: It's just a piece of software that you can use with MSI cards. Though I haven't heard much talk about MSI's Predator video game capture software here on the forums. I guess everyone is still using FRAPs.
Deathbliss said:
On an aside, outside of Amazon (supporting this forums) NewEgg and TigerDirect, is there any other place to get components on the cheap? Don't say Geeks.com or Fry's either, or I'll toss an iron skillet in your general direction!
Click to expand...
Directron.com, Bhphotovideo.com, Microcenter occasionally has an online deal, ncix.us, superbiiz.com when they have free shipping, etc.
 
Deathbliss said:
OK thanks!

Really thinking of one of these cards, save some money, get 4gb and hardware/software screen capture (which if it works saves me another $100.00):
http://www.amazon.com/MSI-GeForce-G...1358638916&sr=1-2&keywords=MSI+GeForce+GT+630

http://www.amazon.com/MSI-GeForce-G...?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1358638687&sr=1-11

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Both are ridiculously overpriced. Remember what I wrote earlier?:
Danny Bui said:
While there are sub $190 video cards that have 2GB of VRAM, they're often not fast enough to take advantage of all that VRAM and/or are priced so high that they're not all that cost-effective.
Click to expand...
The above are two good examples of what I wrote. Neither card are fast enough to take advantage of all that VRAM and are very overpriced for the performance you get. In other words, you'd be getting ripped off with either card.

All right, wasn't planning on doing but I'll make a small exception to my "don't recommend parts over 3 weeks in advance" rule: Since you have a monitor with a resolution of 1920x1080, you're gonna want the fastest video card avaialble in your budget. As of January 19, 2012, the absolute lowest-end card for gaming that you should be looking at is the HD 7750.
 
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OK, thank you for that advice.

Yes I didn't really understand what you meant until recently. Watched a video from YouTube, some guy from Red Tech or something like that, talking about video cards. Sounded British. Anyhow he mentioned that it does no good to get a card with a lot of RAM because if the clock speed is low the card will perform worse than one with less RAM. I was just about to hit the video card section again and compare video card RAM clock speeds. I set aside all the 2 and 4 gigs that looked good. Was going to go through that and then compare those to some 1 gig models. But this tech guy also pointed out that 2 gigs can come in handy when running at 1920x1080p. So it does sound like I should get a 2 gig card with the highest performance RAM clock speed possible. Seems the best way to go.

I'll look at the 7750s, is the Nvidia equivalent the 620, 630, or 640?

I also understand, due to that same video, a little better how CrossfireX/SLI works. You would think they would do things right, double everything up, or get as close to doubling as possible, with two cards. But no, the greedy bastards opted instead to make the higher end card perform like the lower end card, no doubling at all. It's essentially like having two people do the same job instead of one. They are still just people with a certain amount of ability. Sure more gets done, but having two doesn't really make them more powerful collectively. Well maybe that's a bad analogy. But the point is I think I get it now. CrossfireX/SLI is a waste of time and money. Which means I don't need a PSU or mobo with those features either. Maybe this tech will be phased out in favor of dual-gpu video cards.

I do have, as hard as it may be to believe, another ridiculously dumb question to ask... Let's say I decide to throw out the idea of getting a video card at all. Go instead with an Intel 4 or 6 core PSU with integrated video and hyper-threading. Would that be a good alternative solution? Granted as I understand it the CPU graphics capabilities aren't good, but are they at least equivalent to one of these 2-4 year old 128 bit cards I've been staring it until my eyeballs start to itch?

I'm really learning a lot here form your guys. I know I'm not the easiest student to teach. So even though it's beginning to sound monotonous now, thank you for all your help. Off to the video card section...
 
I'm not sure what you are trying to do here other than just posting nonsense. Sorry.

A build for you has already been laid out.

$125 - Intel Core i3-3220
$72 - Gigabyte GA-B75M-D3H Intel B75 mATX Motherboard
$35 - Patriot Memory PSD38G13332 Signature 8GB DDR3 1333 RAM
$60 - Seagate Barracuda ST500DM002 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$18 - LG iHAS124-04 DVD Burner
$45 - Corsair 430CX V2 430W PSU
$50 - NZXT Source 210 Elite White with Black Front Trim ATX Case

----
Total: $405 shipped.

You can use the onboad video, if (or when I should say) you realize it's not enough video power to fit your needs then get this card here.

$115 - Sapphire Radeon HD 7770 GHZ 1GB PCI-E Video Card

That will bring the total to $520 shipped. The onboard might be okay for really old titles, but for some of the newer stuff you'll have to back down some of the eye candy to make it playable. Onboard video has come a long way, but it's still some more to go. AMD seems to be on track to making some descent onboard video solutions, however with a discrete video card planned it's best to go Intel.

It still baffles me that you're doing research. Baffles me even more that you're still lost. We are here for this purpose. Get you the best bang for you buck on the best system tailored to your needs.

Due to your build date being next month, this build is ready to go NOW. Next month it will change. If you want serious help, then put together a build and we'll pick it apart for you. That's about the best way to learn first hand. Just don't buy anything!

PS
I take no credit for the above build. Danny Bui built it in this post. Since you lack needing an operating system, I removed that from the build and since you seem to want to try out the onboard video solutions I took that out as well, but the build is ready for a discrete graphics card.
 
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Skillz:

I apologize for any baffling of anyone or any offense. Please understand that this is how I learn, get up to date, and get the information I need to make a decision. I throw every single option imaginable out there and let more experienced users, such as yourself. pick my ideas apart.

I had hear about the Intel integrated video but ignored it because integrated video seemed to have some sort of stigma attatched to it. Then I read this:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-4000-Benchmarked.73567.0.html

And I discover that yes, it is cost-effective, and future proof, to get an Intel CPU and use the on-board video. Especially since I will not be playing many super modern games. For example, I could get this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116774

Yes, it is an i3. But it's clocked at 3.3ghz, supports hyper-threading, Intel HD 4000 video (latest spec), and of course it will work like 4 cores instead of 2. It costs just $145.00. But if I were to go with a $100 AMD or $120 Intel plus $100-$120 video card I would be paying between $200-$240, so I save roughly $100.00. Also I can save up any money I have left and eventually spend $200.00 or so on a video card, hence the build is future proof. In fact I could just get higher spec memory better matched to the CPU and I'll bet the end product would outperform, by a lot, the other build I could make with the lower priced CPU and video card.

But, as I said before, I am not up-to-date on this stuff, although that is slowly changing. I have no experience with HD 4000 video - never used it for gaming. I don't know what pitfalls or driver issues there may be (is there better driver support this way?) So that is why I am still studying, researching.

Thank you for the build suggestion. I am placing the links in my folders for these parts as "Recommended Build." But please try to understand, I believe in exploring all the options, and I won't rest until I have exhausted them all. If you would prefer me to post separate threads from here on out as this one has been officially addressed, then tell me and I will do so.

For me it is not enough to simply accept what someone else says. Not that I am doubting or judging anyone. That's not it. It's just that this is one opinion, from one perspective, and that person may be nothing like me, someone who can spend hours searching and researching. So I want to understand as well, have that person explain to me exactly why they recommend that part. Stand behind their suggestion in that way. That's how I can begin to get a clearer picture of what is actually going on.

Hope that explains things well enough. Simple solution for you, if you're getting tired of reading and answering my just posts stop doing it. Move on to whatever else you wish. I'm not demanding answers from you or anyone else, nor expecting anything of you or anyone else. I'm just hoping someone around here will bear with me and my endless questions.

Again thank you for the build suggestion and your time. Also I disagree that the prices will change that much in a month. I was trying to build a PC about a year ago (I think it's been that long) and the prices, to my recollection, are not that much different now than they were then for equivalent products. So unless we hit that fiscal cliff and all go over the brink I doubt much will have changed in a few weeks from now.

:p
 
You can post as much as you want. I'm just trying to save you some time here. I do this all the time anyway. So do most of the other people who will respond to your thread who has been here a while.

To be honest, the price difference between the CPU that Danny recommend and the one you posted makes it not worth it. The difference between the different iGPUs (HD 2500, HD 4000, etc...) are not that far apart from one another. Therefore, go with the one originally recommended that has HD 2500 graphics. Again, this is only a temporary solution for OLDER games; if you're serious or get serious about gaming you'll want to upgrade to a discrete GPU sooner or later.

This is also why I said the best way for you to learn is to put together a build you think will work and we will pick it apart. While doing this, you'll learn why we recommend the parts that we do. Check out this thread to see how we can break down builds that are not good for the money. It's a recent topic though, so you'll learn some things about current hardware.

As for the prices changes, they change enough that what we recommend now will usually not be the same parts we recommend two weeks from now. The performance will not change in a negative way as much as it will change in a positive way (IE: You'll get more performance per dollar) For example; Hard drives prices shot through the roof over a year ago. As in, more than doubled in price due to a catastrophic disaster that happened where a lot of those HDDs are manufactured. The hard drives still have not come down to the price levels from back then. Two years ago I bought a 1TB hard drive for the price of that 500GB hard drive recommended to you in the build above. 9 months ago a 1TB hard drive was $120+ and they are just now getting to be under $100 regularly. We never know, next month the prices might drop again and we can replace that 500GB hard drive with a 1TB hard drive for the same price. RAM, fluctuates a lot as well. Last month I got 16GB of some highly overclockable Samsung DDR3 low profile, low voltage RAM (4x4GB) for $63. To get that same kit you'll spend over $90 now. That's a huge difference and those prices jumped that high in less than a month. So yes, what we recommend right now has a high potential to change next month. Your performance might not change for the worse, but the parts to get that performance will be different parts that are worth the money for the same performance.
 
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Deathbliss said:
So it does sound like I should get a 2 gig card with the highest performance RAM clock speed possible. Seems the best way to go.
Click to expand...
It is but you don't have the budget for it. As Skillz showed with my build list, your $500 budget only allows you to get a 1GB card. Remember what I said earlier? It's only at $190 where you start seeing cards with 2GB of VRAM being worth the money.
Deathbliss said:
I'll look at the 7750s, is the Nvidia equivalent the 620, 630, or 640?
Click to expand...
The closest Nvidia equivalent is the GT 650.
Deathbliss said:
I also understand, due to that same video, a little better how CrossfireX/SLI works. You would think they would do things right, double everything up, or get as close to doubling as possible, with two cards. But no, the greedy bastards opted instead to make the higher end card perform like the lower end card, no doubling at all. It's essentially like having two people do the same job instead of one. They are still just people with a certain amount of ability. Sure more gets done, but having two doesn't really make them more powerful collectively. Well maybe that's a bad analogy. But the point is I think I get it now. CrossfireX/SLI is a waste of time and money..
Click to expand...
Depends on how old the video is and what video cards he's talking about. In some newer games and with high-end cards at least, you can actually get double the performance as shown in this recent Far Cry 3 PC performance article:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/12/05/far_cry_3_video_card_performance_preview/3

In addition, it's not due to greediness as to why past Crossfire and SLI setups didn't scale 100%. Think about it: It's extremely hard to write drivers for a Crossfire/SLI setup since you have to make sure that two GPUs are in sync with one another so that they can output the same frames. Not to mention that PC games don't use the same game engine. As such, AMD and Nvidia has to make sure that their drivers well work with multiple and different game engines that all react or act differently.
Deathbliss said:
Which means I don't need a PSU or mobo with those features either.
Click to expand...
With your budget, we weren't going to recommend a PSU or mobo with Crossfire or SLi to begin with.
Deathbliss said:
Maybe this tech will be phased out in favor of dual-gpu video cards.
Click to expand...
No. There are dual-GPU video cards. You still have same basic issue as two cards in SLI or Crossfire but exacerbated a bit in that the GPUs are clocked lower. Not to mention that most dual-GPU video cards are priced pretty high, well past the $500 range. Then there's the fact that there's more deals for single GPUs than there are for dual-GPU video cards. Also, if you have a defective GPU in a dual-GPU video card, you have to send in the whole card whereas a defective GPU in a two single GPU video card SLI or Crossfire setup means that you only have to send back one card.

So in other words, dual-GPU video cards have a lot of caveats and won't be replacing SLI or Crossfire any time soon. That's been borne out by six years of GPU progress. One of the oldest dual-GPU video card that I'm aware of is the Nvidia 7950 GX2 that came in 2006.
Deathbliss said:
I do have, as hard as it may be to believe, another ridiculously dumb question to ask... Let's say I decide to throw out the idea of getting a video card at all. Go instead with an Intel 4 or 6 core PSU with integrated video and hyper-threading. Would that be a good alternative solution?
Click to expand...
Maybe if you can get a dedicated GPU soon after that.
Deathbliss said:
Granted as I understand it the CPU graphics capabilities aren't good, but are they at least equivalent to one of these 2-4 year old 128 bit cards I've been staring it until my eyeballs start to itch?
Click to expand...
Depends on which cards you're talking about.
Deathbliss said:
I had hear about the Intel integrated video but ignored it because integrated video seemed to have some sort of stigma attatched to it. Then I read this:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-4000-Benchmarked.73567.0.html
Click to expand...
Note the resolutions in the article: 1360x768 was the highest resolution they tested. Note the resolution you have: 1920x1080. In other words, you would be getting significantly lower performance at 1920x1080 than you would with 1360x768.

Deathbliss said:
Yes, it is an i3. But it's clocked at 3.3ghz, supports hyper-threading, Intel HD 4000 video (latest spec), and of course it will work like 4 cores instead of 2. It costs just $145.00. But if I were to go with a $100 AMD or $120 Intel plus $100-$120 video card I would be paying between $200-$240, so I save roughly $100.00. Also I can save up any money I have left and eventually spend $200.00 or so on a video card, hence the build is future proof.
Click to expand...
The key problem is that you would negate the extra cash you spent on the Core i3 3225 and would actually be less cost-effective in the long run. Check it: The Core i3 3225 costs $20 more than the Core i3 3220. Right now the best card you can get for around $200 is the HD 7850. However, just $30 more gets you the faster HD 7870. So in this case you could save the $20 by not buying the Core i3 3225 and putting it towards the faster HD 7870.

So in other words, your method would get you better performance up front. But the route I just suggested gets you faster performance later on. Remember the onboard is just a temporary solution in your case. Really no point in spending extra on the onboard video aspect unless that was gonna be your sole GPU for years.
Deathbliss said:
In fact I could just get higher spec memory better matched to the CPU and I'll bet the end product would outperform, by a lot, the other build I could make with the lower priced CPU and video card.
Click to expand...
Nope. The onboard video isn't that fast. In addition, higher spec RAM costs more. As such, the end product will not perform faster than a similarily priced well designed seperate CPU, GPU, and lower speed RAM.
Deathbliss said:
Thank you for the build suggestion. I am placing the links in my folders for these parts as "Recommended Build." But please try to understand, I believe in exploring all the options, and I won't rest until I have exhausted them all. If you would prefer me to post separate threads from here on out as this one has been officially addressed, then tell me and I will do so.
Click to expand...
I would just keep it in the same thread. At the end of the day, a lot of people from other subforums will just refer you to this forum for the final build list.
Deathbliss said:
For me it is not enough to simply accept what someone else says. Not that I am doubting or judging anyone. That's not it. It's just that this is one opinion, from one perspective, and that person may be nothing like me, someone who can spend hours searching and researching. So I want to understand as well, have that person explain to me exactly why they recommend that part. Stand behind their suggestion in that way. That's how I can begin to get a clearer picture of what is actually going on.
Click to expand...
Ok, good for you. But I should point out that technically you got two people backing that build list since I made that original list and Skillz posted it because he supported it. But yeah I can see why you want people to explain why we recommend hardware. As Skillz has shown with link to that recent thread, we can easily break down a build while recommending better parts for the money.

Deathbliss said:
Again thank you for the build suggestion and your time. Also I disagree that the prices will change that much in a month. I was trying to build a PC about a year ago (I think it's been that long) and the prices, to my recollection, are not that much different now than they were then for equivalent products. So unless we hit that fiscal cliff and all go over the brink I doubt much will have changed in a few weeks from now.
Click to expand...
No offense man, but I think we know more about pricing of hardware better than you do. If you look, we have made build lists almost every week for almost 3-4 years now. Hell I've been doing for about six years now. So we have a little more insight into pricing and availability as a result. We have to keep up on pricing every week otherwise we can't help the people here make cost-effective build lists for that week.

As Skillz has shown, things can definitely change. It was not even a month ago that the majority of the builds we were doing were using Newegg links. Now we're transitioning to use as much Amazon.com links as possible which has had an impact on which parts we can or cannot recommend due to availability and pricing. Hell even the build list that Skillz posted, the one I made just 3-4 days ago, will now have a different part if I was recommending it to another person: Right now the better Corsair 200R case can be had from Amazon.com for $45:
http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Carbi...Z8MM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358688970&sr=8-1

Note that the 200R was $60 for quite awhile until this week when it dropped down to $45 on Amazon.com. So thats one small instance of how our recommendations can change in a short amount of time.
 
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OK I stand mildly rebuked and corrected.

Onboard video, not really a good idea.

So I choose between the Saphire and the MSI. Or I spend more money and get a 256 bit video card. But I have to up my price $100.00 to do so (just as you said, to get a good 2gb card I have to spend about $200.00), so $300.00 for CPU and video card (AMD), $320.00 for Intel.

I just saw a chart that showed a definite huge jump in benchmark ratings whenever you went form a 128 bit card to a 192 or 256. So it's looking like the Memory Bandwidth is first priority, then amount of RAM, then Effective Memory Speed, then Clock speed, and that only gets you a candidate, you still have to see a benchmark.

I'll post another build, based on everything I have learned so far, in a little while. Also I will plan on the prices fluctuating between now and when I begin to purchase parts. But that gives me some time to figure this stuff out.

I have to admit that Saphire card Skillz recommended is super hard to beat for the price. Glad I came to these forums instead of going elsewhere.
 
OK, everything else pretty much applies from before, same answers to the questions, all on page 1 of this thread somewhere. If memory serves I was told to post any new build here so this is what I am doing.

PURPOSE
I realize that suggested builds have already been provided for me. However I feel that in order to do this build right, I need to have a 256bit video card with 2gb of RAM, and it has to be running by default at 1000MHz or more with 1600MHz (4) for the RAM. That translates to a card costing around $200.00 or more. Which means all in, CPU and GPU, I'm looking at $300.00 to start. Well with this setup I get the equivalent of a 128bit GPU, as many gigs of RAM as I can afford (it uses system RAM) and that's a good thing because I will be running everything at 1920x1080 - 1080p resolution. This GPU supposedly clocks in at 800MHz with 933MHz for the RAM. The point is I'm not playing any newer games, at least not until I have found a way to support myself, and when I have earned income I can invest in a good 256 bit video card and some new games. So this gives me incentive and a good upgrade path. In the meantime I save between $70.00 ($100 128 bit GPU and $100 CPU) - $170.00 (256 bit GPU and $100 CPU), using the $130.00 APU as a base.

MUST HAVES FOR THIS BUILD
1. A modular and 550w minimum (600w preferred) PSU for $100.00 or less including shipping and tax. Prefer to have a fan on the top or bottom so I can keep it cool.
2. A motherboard with s/pdif optical out, HDMI out, UEFI and Lucid Virtu.
3. 8-16 gigs of 1.5v RAM in a set of 2 running at 1866 (14900 or 15000) at a stable 9-9-9-xx or better.
4. A case with good ventilation, cable management features, 2 or more fans, dust cover(s), tool-free design, bottom mounted PSU (preferably with a vent to match PSU fan) and shocks for the hard drives.
5. Budget of $600.00 all total including shipping and tax.

Go ahead and tear this build apart, and provide, if you can, alternative higher quality and equivalent price or less components a you feel needed.

THE BUILD
http://www.amazon.com/AMD-A10-5800K...&qid=1358860574&sr=8-1&keywords=AMD+A10-5800K
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Balli...KIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358861739&sr=1-146
http://www.amazon.com/GAMMA-Classic...DKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358439985&sr=1-34
http://www.amazon.com/Lite--Super-A...PDKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358433375&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/PC-Power-Cool...Power+and+Cooling+Silencer+Mk+III+Series+600W
http://www.amazon.com/Desktop-500GB...DKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358512595&sr=1-61
http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-FM2A85...d=1358862916&sr=1-1&keywords=FM2A85X+Extreme4

Total price: $534.57

I may organize the links later and provide the names of the parts. I am especially interested in personal experiences with any of these components or with a good AMD A10 based system.

Thank you!
 
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Deathbliss said:
I realize that suggested builds have already been provided for me. However I feel that in order to do this build right, I need to have a 256bit video card with 2gb of RAM, and it has to be running by default at 1000MHz or more with 1600MHz (4) for the RAM. That translates to a card costing around $200.00 or more. Which means all in, CPU and GPU, I'm looking at $300.00 to start. Well with this setup I get the equivalent of a 128bit GPU, as many gigs of RAM as I can afford (it uses system RAM) and that's a good thing because I will be running everything at 1920x1080 - 1080p resolution. This GPU supposedly clocks in at 800MHz with 933MHz for the RAM. The point is I'm not playing any newer games, at least not until I have found a way to support myself, and when I have earned income I can invest in a good 256 bit video card and some new games. So this gives me incentive and a good upgrade path. In the meantime I save between $70.00 ($100 128 bit GPU and $100 CPU) - $170.00 (256 bit GPU and $100 CPU), using the $130.00 APU as a base.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately one key problem with your plan: The whole point of going AMD APU is for the onboard graphics. If you plan on using dedicated video card, that effectively negates the whole point. It's like saying I'm going vegetarian but I cook all my vegetarian food in bacon fat or any other animal fat. Not to mention that you could still do better for the money. But since you still have $65 left in your budget, I really don't see the point in going the small route.

Deathbliss said:
http://www.amazon.com/AMD-A10-5800K...&qid=1358860574&sr=8-1&keywords=AMD+A10-5800K
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Balli...KIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358861739&sr=1-146
http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-FM2A85...d=1358862916&sr=1-1&keywords=FM2A85X+Extreme4
Click to expand...
The total sum of these parts is $314.

Now if you were going the small route (i.e you want to stay at at your $535 total), here's what I'd recommend instead:
$124 - AMD FX-4300 CPU
$89 - Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 AMD 970 Motherboard
$35 - Patriot Memory PSD38G13332 Signature 8GB DDR3 1333 RAM
$70 - Gigabyte GV-R667D3-1GI Radeon HD 6670 1GB PCI-E Video Card
---
Total: $318 shipped

Check out this Xbitlabs review:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/amd-trinity-graphics_6.html

Since the HD 6570 outperforms the onboard graphics of the A8-5800K, the HD 6670, which is faster than the HD 6570, should do the job just fine. Now the above build does not have UEFI or Lucid Virtu but you gain higher CPU and GPU performance. Not to mention that you're not negating any advantage of an APU. Since you're not using an APU, no reason to get higher speed RAM.

However, you still have $47 (you'll see why it's $47 later) in your $600 budget. So I recommend spending the extra cash:
$176 - Intel Core i5-2310 CPU
$75 - Gigabyte GA-B75M-D3H Intel B75 mATX Motherboard
$35 - Patriot Memory PSD38G13332 Signature 8GB DDR3 1333 RAM
$70 - Gigabyte GV-R667D3-1GI Radeon HD 6670 1GB PCI-E Video Card
---
Total: $356 shipped

With the above build you get lower power usage, higher CPU performance, and UEFI.

Deathbliss said:
http://www.amazon.com/GAMMA-Classic...DKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358439985&sr=1-34
Click to expand...
Not a good choice for the money since the 200R is only $10 more. The 200R is roomier, has front panel USB 3.0, an extra 120mm fan, and of higher quality as I've seen first hand:
$45 - Corsair Carbide Series 200R ATX Case
Deathbliss said:
http://www.amazon.com/Desktop-500GB...DKIKX0DER&s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1358512595&sr=1-61
Click to expand...
This is pretty overpriced considering that you can get twice the space for $8 more:
http://www.amazon.com/WD-Blue-Desktop-Hard-Drive/dp/B0088PUEPK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358891275

EDIT:
I should note that the HD 6670 is still on the weak side for 1920x1080 gaming. But it's far better than an AMD APU's GPU.
 
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Hey thank you for posting and giving me some other options to think about - I appreciate it!

Well I guess I needed to add a few more specifics to the ideal build I'm trying to get at...

Firstly I want absolutely nothing to with mATX or ITX or anything else. Just a full size mobo. Speaking of mobos, is Gigabyte really all that good? Thinking about build quality here. Of course I linked to an ASrock mobo and the same doubts apply. But how good really are these cheaper mobos by Biostar, ASrock and Gigabyte?

Secondly the RAM you linked to is 1333. Is there any reason, outside of mobo and processor requirements, that I shouldn't spend a tad more and get 1600 or higher?

Thirdly I can't use a 1gb video card. Remember I'm running 1920x1080. That 1gb is not enough as I understand it for some games, of course I'm not playing any of the newer ones, but someday I may, and I'm not really liking the idea of spending $300.00 for a video card for the system. That's $70.00 for the card you recommended and another $230.00 for a good 256 bit card later.

Fourth I don't really see any negation of getting onboard video then using a card later, especially if I combine the onboard video and the card through Dual or Lucid Virtu. I don't understand your ligic here. To me it seems perfectly logical to get a card and CPU in one purchase, by getting the APU, then building up the system later by adding a card. I'm not out any additional money as I would be getting a cheap 128 bit 1gb card now then getting a 256 bit card later. All total with your Intel build we're looking at $240.00 for CPU and GPU, or $200.00 for the AMD CPU and GPU. Then an additional $230.00 for a 256 bit card later. So all in that's $430.00 - $470.00 VS $360.00 ($130.00 APU and $230.00 GPU.) I don't know... Just seemed more logical to me to go without a video card for now until I earned one, build this system up as a I go along.

I didn't know the 1tb HDD had dropped that much. Linking to that, investigating the case you recommended. I have to admit, I would probably be happier with da-to-day stuff with an Intel. Can't use the no video card path with Intel, the HD 4000 is unusable and not cost-effective. I think I'll play around a bit, put together an i5 build with a 256 bit card. See what that will cost me.

So was the PSU I linked to OK?

Thanks again!
 
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