President Says He Can't Pardon Edward Snowden

[Deleted member 245375]

If he showed up on american soil, he would be dead within 24hrs.

No trial. No lawyers. He pissed off the wrong people.

If that highlighted part was actually true, he'd have been assassinated a long time ago but that's not how the plan works, if you and most other people were paying attention to what's really going on you'd understand this.

If news reporters, talk show hosts, and other people can get access to Snowden in person and on camera, there is no logical or rational reason a government agency can't do the same or wouldn't have after several years of him being "out there" - just because he's on Russian soil doesn't mean a damned thing. Once he's served his full purpose he'll disappear - how that's going to happen is up to you to speculate on.

 

[Wierdo]

If that highlighted part was actually true, he'd have been assassinated a long time ago but that's not how the plan works, if you and most other people were paying attention to what's really going on you'd understand this.

If news reporters, talk show hosts, and other people can get access to Snowden in person and on camera, there is no logical or rational reason a government agency can't do the same or wouldn't have after several years of him being "out there" - just because he's on Russian soil doesn't mean a damned thing. Once he's served his full purpose he'll disappear - how that's going to happen is up to you to speculate on.

That's not our style, that's more of a Russian approach.

I think ours is more refined and in keeping with modern methods of social control: You discredit and marginalize the opponent, exercise some message manipulation and diversion for the media to - willingly or otherwise - spread on your behalf, and leverage pro-authority elements of society to fight for your cause.

At some point the subjects grow tired or lose interest, and the problematic issues die down in the confusion. That voice of dissent becomes background noise, and you go with business as usual from there. You don't need to make him a martyr for his message.

 

[lcpiper]

If he showed up on american soil, he would be dead within 24hrs.

No trial. No lawyers. He pissed off the wrong people.

I find this stupid on so many levels. So no matter how many other spies or traitors, who have done just as much if not more damage, remain languishing in our prisons or have been released after serving their time, you think Snowden will be killed. It's not like they won't have enough evidence to convict, gaining a conviction won't even be difficult.

http://www.realcleardefense.com/art...e_worst_damage_to_the_us_military_108022.html

Out of the 11 spies listed here;
1. Julius Rosenberg gave Russia plans for nuclear bombs. After their convictions, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed in the electric chair at sundown on June 19, 1953.

2. Noshir Gowadia gave B-2 Stealth technology to China. Although sentencing was set for November 22, 2010, and though Gowadia could have faced a sentence of life in prison,on January 24, 2011 he was sentenced to 32 years in prison. Gowadia is currently incarcerated in the ADX Florence, with a release date of September 11, 2033.

3. Chi Mak’s betrayal put modern sailors in jeopardy. Mak is serving a nearly 24-year, six-month prison sentence after his conviction in 2007. The other spies who worked with Mak plead guilty, receiving shorter prison sentences and deportation orders.

4. Ana Montes deliberately misled the joint chiefs while leaking secrets to Cuba. From 1984 to 2001, Ana Montes was slipping classified information to Cuba. She is currently serving a 25-year sentence. Her tentative release date is listed as July 1, 2023.

5. Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames dimed out every American spy they could name. Hanssen is currently serving 15 consecutive life sentences at ADX Florence, a federal supermax prison near Florence, Colorado. Aldrich Ames is serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole in the high-security Allenwood U.S. Penitentiary.

6. John Anthony Walker told the Russians where all the U.S. subs were during the Cold War. Walker and his son were finally caught after Walker’s ex-wife told everything to the FBI. Walker. He died in prison last year.

7. Larry Chin may have made the Korean War go on much longer. He was arrested in 1985 and convicted of all charges, but he killed himself before he was sentenced.

8. James Nicholson sold the intelligence team roster to Moscow. Nicholson was convicted in 1997 and sentenced to 25 years. From prison, he doubled down on espionage by teaching his son spy tradecraft, telling him state secrets, and then having his son meet up with old Russian contacts to collect money. He confessed to this second round of espionage in 2010.

9. James Hall III sold top-secret signal programs to the Soviets. In 1988, he bragged about his 6 years of spying to an undercover FBI agent. Hall was tried and sentenced, serving his sentence at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas until his release in 2011. After his arrest, Hall said there were many indicators visible to those around him that he was involved in questionable activity. Hall's activities inflicted grave damage on U.S. signals intelligence and he is considered the "perpetrator of one of the most costly and damaging breaches of security of the long Cold War"

10. Col. George Trofimoff gave it all to the KGB through his brother the archbishop. When George Trofimoff was finally arrested in 2000, he was just a bag boy. As a retired Army Reserve colonel though, he is the highest-ranking American ever convicted of espionage. Trofimoff spied for the Soviet Union from 1969 to 1994, a 25-year career. Trofimoff was arrested at his home at 1427 Patriot Drive and tried for espionage in 2000. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

11. Benedict Arnold tried to abort America. Arnold would live out his life in England as a rich man, but forever be known as a traitor.

12. Chelsea Manning released tons of documents embarrassed the U.S. Manning stole documents from his work in Army intelligence by storing them on an SD card and sending the files to Wikileaks. Manning is serving a 35-year prison sentence.

This is more than 12 people who were all spies or traitors and did very damaging things, "pissed off the wrong people". Many had accomplices including family members. Out of all of them, two were executed following trial, one killed himself before he was sentenced, another died while in prison, three will never leave prison, and the rest have either already been released or have scheduled release dates. So explain please why Ed Snowden would be treated any different then all these others, many who did far worse than Snowden. If the US Government is so pissed off they have no need to murder him, they can convict him easily and either lock him away forever like Trofimoff, Ames, and Hanssen. Or they could just execute him;

The United States federal government (in comparison to the separate states) applies the death penalty for crimes: treason, terrorism, espionage, federal murder, large-scale drug trafficking, and attempting to kill a witness, juror, or court officer in certain cases.

 

[Deleted member 245375]

That's not our style, that's more of a Russian approach.

Obviously you don't understand the plan either, oh well.

 

[lcpiper]

They joked about having him killed. I doubt they would ever find his body though. he would be incarcerated for the rest of his life.

Manning did much the same thing and he could have been executed but got 33 years instead. He'll be like 53 when he is released if he doesn't off herself first.

 

[lcpiper]

Hey you can dress it up any way that makes you feel better down there, but the world will keep doing its own thing regardless lol.

All I'm saying is we're not that different today than we were in feudal days, just the presentation and marketing around it got better, newer media requires better propaganda and censorship tools to keep the cogs in check.

Peasants obsessed with the royal court's "proper etiquette" instead of the actual transgressions at hand, hard hitting issues right there.

Not much has changed you say?
So women were always able to vote, and work, and a non-Royal could serve in political office or attend higher education, become a Knight? If Obama had lived in 1802 he would still have had a chance at two presidential terms? Schools have always withheld personal information on children from their parents?

How long does this list have to continue?

 

[DPI]

Lets see if he remembers that when people push him to give Hillary a preemptive pardon.

Give Hillary a pardon for what exactly? Just curious.

"Just lock her up" isn't a very convincing argument.

 

[Wierdo]

Not much has changed you say?
So women were always able to vote, and work, and a non-Royal could serve in political office or attend higher education, become a Knight? If Obama had lived in 1802 he would still have had a chance at two presidential terms? Schools have always withheld personal information on children from their parents?

How long does this list have to continue?

See you're looking at the "dressing" aspects of governance again, that entity is not one man, the underlying policies don't change just because you put a new puppet on the hand for the next show, just a big ship with a new tiny rudder.

Modern governments got better at keeping the peasants pacified, that class is not in charge or even meaningfully aware of the underlying dealings and agendas - one would argue in the case of Snowden many don't even want to know, don't bite the hand that feeds you as they say.

 

[lcpiper]

If that highlighted part was actually true, he'd have been assassinated a long time ago but that's not how the plan works, if you and most other people were paying attention to what's really going on you'd understand this.

If news reporters, talk show hosts, and other people can get access to Snowden in person and on camera, there is no logical or rational reason a government agency can't do the same or wouldn't have after several years of him being "out there" - just because he's on Russian soil doesn't mean a damned thing. Once he's served his full purpose he'll disappear - how that's going to happen is up to you to speculate on.

If anyone is going to kill him it will be the Russians, not the US.

 

[lcpiper]

See you're looking at the "dressing" aspects of governance again, that entity is not one man, the underlying policies don't change just because you put a new puppet on the hand for the next show, just a big ship with a new tiny rudder.

Modern governments got better at keeping the peasants pacified, that class is not in charge or even meaningfully aware of the underlying dealings and agendas - one would argue in the case of Snowden many don't even want to know, don't bite the hand that feeds you as they say.

And I think you are lost in the clouds.

Does a woman give a damn that her vote doesn't count or is she more concerned that she votes for what she feels is best and that she is able to do something that effects her life, even if it's a sham?
Her life is better and she feels better about it. There doesn't need to be any more to it.
We do need governance of one type or another and that has been a universal truth for centuries. I don't care if it's the most benign of governments or the baddest Alpha male on the block, someone is going to be in charge. Not accepting this reality or thinking there is some real alternative is a foolish indulgence.

 

[Wierdo]

And I think you are lost in the clouds.

Does a woman give a damn that her vote doesn't count or is she more concerned that she votes for what she feels is best and that she is able to do something that effects her life, even if it's a sham?
Her life is better and she feels better about it. There doesn't need to be any more to it.
We do need governance of one type or another and that has been a universal truth for centuries. I don't care if it's the most benign of governments or the baddest Alpha male on the block, someone is going to be in charge. Not accepting this reality or thinking there is some real alternative is a foolish indulgence.

Well yeah of course it's in the clouds, this is all rather philosophical bs by people who got their own lives and enough on their plates to worry about, so yes all just bs-ing, that's the idea.

But I think you're still arguing whether citizens today are happier or not, I'm arguing whether the government is really "by the people" when it comes to its own bigger agendas.

We, for example, didn't really "choose" to invade Iraq imho, the decision was already made internally at the time. Remembering that time, all we got as citizens was the relentless sales pitch while the train was already heading to its destination. The timing was great, people were scared and vulnerable after a tragedy and it was just a matter of preying on that vulnerability.

So as to your own point, it's fine, there's no debate that people today are no longer dying of the plague, that's big progress by medieval standards sure if we're looking at quality of life.

But I don't see this indicating a change in government behavior itself. It's still, in spirit, a buncha feudal lords bickering over the bigger statesmanship issues at the foundation.

 

[RealBeast]

That is just total drivel. A president can pardon anyone at any time for actual or potential crimes, and they can even pardon themselves.

Case in point: Marc Rich pardoned while living in Switzerland on the last day in office by Bill Clinton, Rich never came to the US while under threat of jail time.

While Snowden did some possible harm, he did far more good. Indeed he did far more to continue our freedoms that Barrack "drone maniac" Obama.

 

[Semantics]

Give Hillary a pardon for what exactly? Just curious.

"Just lock her up" isn't a very convincing argument.

It's also a really stupid thing because she's been thoroughly investigated, sorta part of the deal of being a public servant her investigations are quite well documented and available to the public. Although some morally defunct behavior can be found nothing illegal, ofc course you could always trump up charges. Then again what sounds "nice" doesn't actually has to have any substance behind it.

 

[Staples]

Glad he is not willing to pardon him.

 

[Bootleg Usher]

Canadian here. What is the thinking behind giving the President or Governor the ability to reverse a conviction? Just because you got elected to a high office means your opinion matters more than the laws of the land? Even her Majesty the Queen is bound by the laws of the land.

 

[MongGrel]

Canadian here. What is the thinking behind giving the President or Governor the ability to reverse a conviction? Just because you got elected to a high office means your opinion matters more than the laws of the land? Even her Majesty the Queen is bound by the laws of the land.

I tend to agree, but is like a lot of things in the US.

I'd be surprised if Obama goes out on a limb to give Snowden a pardon, he signed up for his job.

It's politics as usual, he violated protocol.

Good or Bad, that is the way things work in most countries.

It is a reality thing, trying to be a whistle blower with ideals has worked negatively with many people over time.

 

[Hagrid]

Exposing government corruption and lawlessness is treason? Genius

I was just thinking this...

 

[Red Squirrel]

It's not that he can't, it's that he does not want to. Sadly, Trump won't either, he actually wants him dead too.

Snowden's best bet long term is to try to find permanent residence in a country that is more free and safe than Russia, that also has no ties with the US. (Ex: no extradition treaty). The problem with him being in Russia is that Trump could easily make some kind of deal that involves handing Snowden over. Then he's done for. At best, he gets life in prison, at worse, torture to the death. Knowing the US government they'd probably go for the torture route. They would treat him like a war criminal and basically that opens a whole bunch of legal doors for doing stuff like waterboarding. Just because something is legal does not make it right, though.

 

[rezerekted]

Good. Snowden is a traitor.

You're a traitor of freedom.

 

[lcpiper]

Well yeah of course it's in the clouds, this is all rather philosophical bs by people who got their own lives and enough on their plates to worry about, so yes all just bs-ing, that's the idea.

But I think you're still arguing whether citizens today are happier or not, I'm arguing whether the government is really "by the people" when it comes to its own bigger agendas.

We, for example, didn't really "choose" to invade Iraq imho, the decision was already made internally at the time. Remembering that time, all we got as citizens was the relentless sales pitch while the train was already heading to its destination. The timing was great, people were scared and vulnerable after a tragedy and it was just a matter of preying on that vulnerability.

So as to your own point, it's fine, there's no debate that people today are no longer dying of the plague, that's big progress by medieval standards sure if we're looking at quality of life.

But I don't see this indicating a change in government behavior itself. It's still, in spirit, a buncha feudal lords bickering over the bigger statesmanship issues at the foundation.

But I see other differences. By example, our city government decided, and I mean they made the decision without asking the citizens, to put up Redflex Traffic Cameras in town and for two years those cameras took people's money and most of the proceeds went to Redflex, not our city. And as a consequence our city had to employ three officers full time just to look at the photos meaning we had three officers who were only working to enforce a very few types of traffic violations at a very small number of intersections. What was worse was that these officers were not able to do anything else because they were not at the site but instead sitting behind a computer. It was a terrible waste of tax payer money and a drain on city revenue, both for the citizens and the city itself. The city payed more for the three officers then the officers made with the city's cut of the fines.

Some people in our city pushed for getting rid of the cameras, it became a proposition on the ballot and we voted them out by passing a law that made it illegal in our city to use cameras for the purpose. So we didn't just vote to get rid of the cameras, we passed a law to make them illegal in their entirety.

So what does this amount too? That if people want to make a real and lasting difference in their lives they need to look much closer to home. Worry more about your city and county instead of looking to the Federal Government to fix things for you. Be involved locally so that your local leaders can influence State. The more you ask for the Feds to fix your problems the more you invite them into your wallet and the less control you have over how it will be done.

 

[lcpiper]

That is just total drivel. A president can pardon anyone at any time for actual or potential crimes, and they can even pardon themselves.

Case in point: Marc Rich pardoned while living in Switzerland on the last day in office by Bill Clinton, Rich never came to the US while under threat of jail time.

While Snowden did some possible harm, he did far more good. Indeed he did far more to continue our freedoms that Barrack "drone maniac" Obama.

You got something completely backwards.

Snowden positively did great harm and possibly did some good.

Now here me out, Along with information on a couple of programs that were questionable. And understand, the reason why that bulk-telephone metadata program was deemed bad was not because anything wrong was being done with the information, it was the potential for abuse, not actual abuse. It's a safety thing, the slippery slope, where it will lead next. So make sure you keep that in mind.

Now balance that against the rest that Snowden released, many many techniques and programs that had nothing at all to do with out freedoms in the US. Information that had an immediate impact on our current and future collection activities. The difference isn't even close.

And what has changed because of it? I know many of you feel like because you know these things that this terrible attack on our freedoms has been stopped .................. please.
The data in the database was retained and they will still be hanging onto it for at least another 4 years. Instead of having Verizon and others just turn all the data over all the time, instead, the providers have to keep that data on hand and query it for the Government on demand essentially becoming government contractors doing the NSA's job remotely from a Verizon or AT&T office location.

Along with the above, now the government has created a continuous monitoring program on all employees and contractors with security clearances. Their bank records, medical records, public social media activity. It's all done to catch the next Snowden before he starts getting crazy and thinking about stealing information. So this threat qualifies, I have a clearance, everything in this thread is subject. I am being watched now, so the people I am conversing with are being heard as well.

I am a digital Typhoid Mary. There are thousands like me scattered on websites of all kinds. Any of us post comments on news related sites where people like to say outlandish and ridiculous things and the government has it and it's legal.

People used to say "Who's watching the Watchers?"
But today you could say "We listen to everyone who talks with the Watchers and they don't always know who the Watchers are"

I said they monitor my public comments on social media, but if they see something that they determine is sufficient to open an investigation on, they will go into the private data, PMs between myself and some of you for instance.

People are concerned with the slippery slope, this is it guys. This is far worse than phone meta-data on overseas phone calls.

If you believe Snowden made anything better I think you are not seeing the picture clearly. As my Father told me, wish in one hand and shit in the other, and only one hand will be full".