• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

PPU's Dead

Too much verbage in this topic.

It's simple.

PPU was a good idea
Now it's being designed by other companies to be better / cheaper
PPU will fail
Other forms of the ppu will pop up and take over
It will have to be cheap say around $100 and last 3- 4 years in the development cycle.

1 more thing.

Caaaaaappppptaaainnnn caaaaaaaaaaveeeeman
 
You mean other companies are trying to imitate the PPU, not create their own. Havok FX is a form of emulation, using hardware for tasks outside of its intended purpose wasting resources in a inefficient manner that should be going to its main job.

Why do people act this way though? They keep yelling the PPU is dead over and over again in hopes it rises above those actually debating its success/failure. It is really irritating that people are typing in a 'stating a fact' tone when really they are going on a guess they don't even bother to back up.

“I think the PPU will probably fail for these reasons” <- correct way to state a opinion.

“The PPU will fail, end of story” <- wrong way to state a opinion.

Will people please back up/justify/rationalize what they say instead of pretending to know the future and getting fussy when people won't take their word for it.
 
Okay so 1 fact I haven't seen in this whole thread yet.

The $$$ / Sales support to show that the PPU is going to succeed.
 
I work part time for a largish computer chain in Canada,that does sell and stock high end gamer equipment(G80's,X1950XT,BFG agiea ppu's,Killer nic,klipsch speakers,X-fi sound cards,auzentech cards,windowed cases by lian li,thermaltake,etc/corsair and pc power and cooling stuff,uv stuff,lights,colored fans,reobus,allot case mod stuff) And we have sold one,count em 1 whole BFG ppu card,we ordered 5 and have sold one since launch !!

It can be found on our site easily,and we have over 5 locations in a large city,with allot of people that make $$$ bucks.We sell 10 to 25+ pc's a day.

And maybe one to two,3k+ plus machines a day,as well as tons of daily peripheral sales (mice,kb,lcd's,cases,ipods,memory,usb drives,cables,burners).

I asked one of our suppliers reps last week,how many he had moved? He came back to me and told me 22 in one year.5 of which we ordered,and we have only sold one.Not once,since the initial sale has anyone to my knowledge asked for one,or even inquired as to its price.I can type a product name or SKU into our database and find out past qoutes and even past customer inquires going back a ways(upto 2 years.) I wish the poeple at Ageia no harm,but all I see is a total lack of sales or customer interest at the local level.
 
TeamStrykerCore said:
Okay so 1 fact I haven't seen in this whole thread yet.

The $$$ / Sales support to show that the PPU is going to succeed.
Click to expand...
Something I don't think anyone can provide without in depth access to the biggest PC retailers sale records, something they guard heavily to keep from the competition.

There is one thing we can go by however, Ageia being a hardware manufacturer survives off the sale of their PPUs. While we cannot get specific figures we can estimate the success of the PPU by the financial success of Ageia.
 
Financial success - stronghold

and profiting / market growth is totally different


A company can be tied up in multiple assetts stemming from other providers.
You have to see how fast they can turn inventory into cash in 30 days and you can' tell me they've been turning their inventory.

If a company does 6 million in business in one year but only makes 20,000 g's the bank is going to laugh at them for extending out
accounts receivable invoices and gaurunteeing dollars.
 
Manny Calavera said:
I work part time for a largish computer chain in Canada,that does sell and stock high end gamer equipment(G80's,X1950XT,BFG agiea ppu's,Killer nic,klipsch speakers,X-fi sound cards,auzentech cards,windowed cases by lian li,thermaltake,etc/corsair and pc power and cooling stuff,uv stuff,lights,colored fans,reobus,allot case mod stuff) And we have sold one,count em 1 whole BFG ppu card,we ordered 5 and have sold one since launch !!

It can be found on our site easily,and we have over 5 locations in a large city,with allot of people that make $$$ bucks.We sell 10 to 25+ pc's a day.

And maybe one to two,3k+ plus machines a day,as well as tons of daily peripheral sales (mice,kb,lcd's,cases,ipods,memory,usb drives,cables,burners).

I asked one of our suppliers reps last week,how many he had moved? He came back to me and told me 22 in one year.5 of which we ordered,and we have only sold one.Not once,since the initial sale has anyone to my knowledge asked for one,or even inquired as to its price.I can type a product name or SKU into our database and find out past qoutes and even past customer inquires going back a ways(upto 2 years.) I wish the poeple at Ageia no harm,but all I see is a total lack of sales or customer interest at the local level.
Click to expand...
Ageia Sucses or down fall depends on good PhysX games aviable. The Killer app isue.
Look at what is out mow of PhysX games. Not much. And if one is a populair one and if so, make good use off PhysX.
Let see
1 ) No populair game out,
2 ) Only a few low profile games
3 ) Wich don't make good use off PhysX.
So a Big no.
Games aren pushin PPU Excualy not at all.

This means the large crowed won't buy one because They don'have a resonable value price use for it. Like every non Graw players.
even most Graw players don't feel the need.
People mostly don't buy Hardware just for a Demo, I did. Iám a exeption. :)
Does this means PPU is dead. No. It's more idle or comatised. It can change drasticly wenn there come a full good using gameplay physics PhysX game out.
Like CellFactor revolution. Warmonger. Unreal3. UT2007
Each of these games could push PPU sales.
Wenn a populair game uses PhsyX in a decent way. sales will grow.
 
I have a theory:

Aegia makes a physics PPU. demos showing off the technology impress both game developers as well as other hardware companies like ATI/Nvidia.

Developers begin making games with PPU support in mind. however the development cycle is several years. The games aren't likely out yet. PPU becomes available but sales are weak since there is no killer app.

Other hardware vendors announce joint venture/support for physics being done by the graphics card along with popular physics engine support. gamers rally around the idea, and hold off purchasing the aegia card for want of possibly cheaper solution. Since there is no killer app, comparative benchmarks not possible.

Here is where I ask the question: why did the graphics card vendors announce physics support in graphics cards? Because they want to steal money from aegia? not necessarily since aegia isn't actually making any yet. (no killer app yet). but maybe they know that app is just around the corner... they want aegia to fail? possibly. if aegia fails ( after having shown/proven that seperate physics calculations really does have immersive benefits to gameplay), they can either 1) sell more cards for physics use (via the gpu/software solution), or 2) buy floundering ageia dirt cheap once the killer app comes along, when they are ripe for a takeover/buyout.

Then, they may just provide the infusion of cash to get the ball rolling again, or simply start adding physics chips to graphics cards, or make a newer version in pci-express and sell it.

/end theory

In any event. I don't think the PPU is dead per se. The current company/product may not survive if the applications do not show up in time. but even if this is the case, someone else will likely come along once the apps ARE in place, and either invest in or buy aegia.

And we will get our PPUs'. One way or another.

[conjecture about graphics cards companies motives is purely hypothetical. I do not know the actual motives of those companies, other than the desire to make profit]
 
I just think they are taking a 'me too!' approach and are forcing their GPUs to emulate physics data to try and grab a fat piece of the growing physics market. Why hadn't we heard of Havok FX until a while after Ageia demoed their PPU? Why is it when they demoed this supposedly superior technology it was unoptimized and could only perform a fraction of available physics calculations? Why when Ageia confirms 100 titles in development from various publishers, showing it has been around long enough to convince its support, Havok FX 'might' have one or two titles to its name?

Did it even exist on Nvidia's/Havok's road map before Ageia announced their presence?

It is like when they touted GPU accelerated movies, where is it now? They made allot of fuss during the announcement of PureVideo regarding its superior performance and visual quality, they even integrated its support into all their modern graphics cards, but nearly 3 years on from its release and what have they got to show for it? Shouldn't we all be benefiting from GPU accelerated movie quality by now? Unlike Ageia it isn't a hardware problem, anyone can grab the PureVideo software. Hell they might as well since 20 million transistors they paid for are sitting idle for its use.

Why can't they just do their job instead of focusing on diversifying GPUs capabilities? When I buy a graphics card I do so to get better eye candy, not have it throwing resources all over the place attempting to be what it is not.
 
The "me too!" mindset is probably correct.

Soon as demand is there for a PPU, if aegia is having financial woes, someone (AMD-ATI, Nvidia, Intel) will buy them. (free tip for you investors)

I think 2007 is the year something will show up making use of the PPU. It might actually help if a graphics card company was involved, since frames per second (graphical performance) really needs to be closely tied to what the PPU is doing. If the physics are causing the FPS to drop very dramatically ( in say an explosion scene) it needs to dynamically adjust itself to keep fps at certain levels. I have a feeling the physics calculations could be "generalized" or fuzzied (fuzzy logic) to get more output result with less processing. i.e. made more efficient, tho less accurate (but something exploding doesn't need every dust spec being perfectly calculated in real time..). The fps dropping could be in small part caused by the GPU's load from extra items moving around, but I do not think it's responsible in that respect for (big) fps drops.

Point I am trying to make is that once they can associate the physics to fps in a way that all around performance is maintained, PPU will have a warmer reception. :) GPU vendors might be able to help achieve that with aegia's or other seperate PPU. It makes sense for those optimizations to be made for a gpu/software physics solution as well, but it remains to be seen how efficient or powerful HavokFX will be. PhysX is likely superior at least in the near term ( next few years)
 
AnnoyedDragon said:
It is like when they touted GPU accelerated movies, where is it now? They made allot of fuss during the announcement of PureVideo regarding its superior performance and visual quality, they even integrated its support into all their modern graphics cards, but nearly 3 years on from its release and what have they got to show for it? Shouldn't we all be benefiting from GPU accelerated movie quality by now?
Click to expand...

Where the hell have you been? I've been using PureVideo for years now to "accelerate" my DVDs, WMVs, and H.264s. Once I get an HD-DVD/Blu Ray drive it will be almost a necessity to use my GPU to accelerate it.

It performs a ton of quality enhancing features and also lightens the load on your processor. Read up on the feature list here. ATi has their own version (does essentially the same thing as PureVideo) called AVIVO. If you watch movies on your computer or use an HTPC, you need to be running one of these in order to get the best picture quality.

Also, when you say that "Ageia confirms 100 titles in development from various publishers," do realize that very few of these actually support the add-in card or do so only in an extremely limited way. Most are just using the physics code and doing calculations on the CPU. So when you compare that "100 titles in development" for Physx, make sure you're using the total list from Havok as well(150+ titles already released) along with this shorter list of upcoming titles. So far, the PPU "revolution" is rubbish. We need a few killer-apps which truly show the power of the card in a game-changing way, along with relatively inexpensive PPUs (<$100).

If I were given a choice though, I'd much rather have the calculations done on my GPU or as a part of the videocard.
 
So you are saying that I should automatically assume that most of the 'yet to be announced titles' are not PPU ready? And this factual information comes from where? Why are there so many people on here who claim to know the future? It is really getting annoying, if they haven't been announced then there is no way of knowing if they support the PPU or not now is there? Never the less I will humor you and look into the subject, in Ageia's Q&A they say “there are over 60 developers planning to deliver well over 100 PhysX-accelerated game titles through 2006 and into 2007”. The PhysX wiki says the word can refer to the software API or PPU hardware, however accelerated isn't really a word you attach to software run applications; If it was you could label every piece of software in your computer hardware accelerated. So I am then assuming that accelerated, by definition, is referring to the hardware acceleration of the PPU.

Now lets consider the list of Ageia's PPU/Software games. As you said many of the games supported by Ageia's software are in fact not hardware accelerated, the developers can decide if they want to support the PPU or not. So how do we know these boasted 100 titles are PPU enabled? Here is another question, why is it that even though there are many Ageia software accelerated titles only the PPU ones are shown on the website? Wouldn't it make more sense to mention all of their titles for promotional purposes? It is because Ageia is a hardware company, not software. The free API is a afterthought, Ageia only makes money from their hardware sales so it is in their best interests to promote the PPU and not the software kit. Visit their official site and you will see that every page is about the PPU; it makes more sense for Ageia to highlight their PPU compatible titles rather than the ones they get no money from, the ones that they let go for free because it helps to teach DEVs how to utilize their software.

As for the link to benchmark Ageia's success against a Havok support list (a API that has been around since 2000) when it is Havok FX not Havok that competes with the PPU doesn't make any sense. Since it is Ageia's software physics API (formally called Novodex SDK pre PPU) that competes with Havok it would make more sense to compare the list of PPU supported games to Havok FX, feel free to post it. I use the word 'compete' but really Havok FX and PhysX don't compete against each other, seeing how one focuses on effect physics while the other gameplay physics. Ageia has already said they will adapt to which ever physics system is standardized and Havok have said the PPU can support Havok FX if it includes shader model 3 on its card. They are like two sides to the same thing but handle completely different aspects of it, it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider a Havok/PhysX hybrid title may appear one day.

As for PureVideo your use of it isn't really proof that it is widely successful, my comment on “nearly 3 years on from its release and what have they got to show for it?” was mostly referring to their activity. Nearly 3 years on and what do they have to show for it? Other than driver updates they haven't really done much with it, I haven't heard about it in the news for a good while and they haven't made any progress on getting it to run mostly on the GPU rather than just boosting quality. Who knows maybe it will pick up when the HD formats start to become affordable, I am not really against its standardization since it is really only used when watching movies and hence has no draining affect on the GPUs main functions.
 
AnnoyedDragon said:
--snip entire first paragraph--
Click to expand...

First off, I don't claim to know the future. I'm saying that from what we've seen from the current big name titles which support it (GRAW is about the only one, which is an abortion of the R6 series) it supports minor cosmetic changes. Their tech-demo-gone-retail CellFactor is the only title which shows a lot of potential, and even then I think it will take a lot more than a sandbox of physics destruction to sell $150-$200 PPUs.

Second, thanks for humoring me. I would bet that their "Physx-accelerated" terminology refers to anything using the API for physics calculations; why wouldn't a small company trying to ensure its own survival use that wording to show big numbers where it needs it the most?

So how do we know these boasted 100 titles are PPU enabled? Here is another question, why is it that even though there are many Ageia software accelerated titles only the PPU ones are shown on the website?
Click to expand...

Exactly. The only ones actually using the PPU would be shown on their site. That 100 list of "planned" games doesn't seem as impressive.

As for the link to benchmark Ageia's success against a Havok support list (a API that has been around since 2000) when it is Havok FX not Havok that competes with the PPU doesn't make any sense. Since it is Ageia's software physics API (formally called Novodex SDK pre PPU) that competes with Havok it would make more sense to compare the list of PPU supported games to Havok FX, feel free to post it.
Click to expand...

I was pointing out the fact that the 100+ list of "accelerated" physx titles aren't all using the PPU (at least to a significant extent), and therefore it makes more sense to compare it to the massive list of Havok supporters so far. Havok has a huge installed base of developers who are already comfortable with their product; wouldn't it make sense that the jump to FX would be easier because of this?

As for PureVideo your use of it isn't really proof that it is widely successful, my comment on &#8220;nearly 3 years on from its release and what have they got to show for it?&#8221; was mostly referring to their activity.
Click to expand...

How the hell am I expected to come up with numbers for that!? All I know is that every enthusiast I know who watches a lot of movies on their computer runs either Purevideo or AVIVO (depending on their card). It's an excellent feature to have, and while it may not be updated as often as the drivers are, pretty much each generation has added performance and features to the growing list of Purevideo enhancements.

Look, I'm not trying to say that PPUs are a bad idea. I just don't know if somebody like Aegia will be successful with the two largest high-end GPU makers backing the other method. We haven't seen anything from Havok FX in gameplay terms, and Physx is almost just as guilty (Cellfactor is its saving grace). Time will tell what happens with all of this.
 
I have stuff to say on each part of your post but I don't want to drag it on; it is difficult to counter peoples arguments against the PPU without sounding... what is a right word... provocative about it, especially with the difference in people for and against the PPU.

But that is correct, time will only tell if the PPU succeeds or fails. Only problem is people can decide this in their minds before it actually occurs, and it is this decision that can kill something before its time as it is spread to those who adopt the opinions of others instead of forming their own (refer to my earlier post on the IBM OS).

Believe me I would love it if everyone was right, just dedicated a CPU core or a little GPU power for all your physics needs? Wow what a penny saver, plus very convenient as it can be done with existing parts. But the more I read into it the more problems I see; the more technological demonstrations and experiments I see done with these technologies the more I come to the personal conclusion that companies are riding on their brand name to push defective ideas that exist only to make them money. I look at the future of these methods and I see a world were physics suddenly becomes a exclusive to those with deep pockets.

I see a future where any gamer can slot a cheap, dedicated solution into a underused motherboard slot to achieve a next generation level physics experience. Where each component can dedicate 100% of their resources to their job allowing for a unique and more immersive gaming experience. The PPU is expensive right now because it is new and the sales a low, if standardized I can easily see it selling for £50-£60. But I also see a future where physics have been made scalable in a games options because not everyone is well off enough to get the same experience. Enthusiast level gamers who don't spend hundreds on PC parts because they enjoy premium level gaming experiences, but because they have to in order to run them. Where even entry level gamers will be buying SLI motherboards because they cannot afford a high end GPU so will slot in a second low end card instead. A future I imagine has GPU and CPU companies drooling at the possible revenue they can squeeze out of markets were high end is a requirement, not a choice.

I like to play with the possibility of Microsoft standardizing physics so that developers can make their games a certain way and it is the user that decides which solution to choose. A DirectX physics API that works with whatever solution; whether it be PPU, CPU or GPU so that they can compete healthily. Like the old days when you could select if a games graphics are hardware or software accelerated; but that is just me thinking optimistic. There is little money in a market with high competition, more than likely one of the big companies will get in bed with Microsoft and push the alternatives out the market.
 
SuperGee said:
Ageia Sucses or down fall depends on good PhysX games aviable. The Killer app isue.
Look at what is out mow of PhysX games. Not much. And if one is a populair one and if so, make good use off PhysX.
Let see
1 ) No populair game out,
2 ) Only a few low profile games
3 ) Wich don't make good use off PhysX.
So a Big no.
Games aren pushin PPU Excualy not at all.

This means the large crowed won't buy one because They don'have a resonable value price use for it. Like every non Graw players.
even most Graw players don't feel the need.
People mostly don't buy Hardware just for a Demo, I did. I&#225;m a exeption. :)
Does this means PPU is dead. No. It's more idle or comatised. It can change drasticly wenn there come a full good using gameplay physics PhysX game out.
Like CellFactor revolution. Warmonger. Unreal3. UT2007
Each of these games could push PPU sales.
Wenn a populair game uses PhsyX in a decent way. sales will grow.
Click to expand...



Game Devs code based off what they see in the market currently,or think they will see in the near future.And the PhsyX cards are not moving @ retail in the numbers needed for them to be important.Its a vicious circle SuperGee,and PhsyX is a dog chasing its tail.... Do you really think any of the devs on that list,they love to tout will spill it if they have dropped support for hardware physics !?!?!?! And worse,you can't be gullible enough to believe PhysyX will hold a press conference any time soon,to tell us all,that groups of devs on the list they have compiled,are not still crunching away code for them dutifully ? So,the list is iseless,stop trotting it out.

:D

That list and a hundred more like it are totally worthless...My god man this is video game development ! Promise the fans the moon,and axe half the specs at launch ! That is and always has been,always will be the modus operandi...

:rolleyes:

How many on that list do you really think will launch with hardware support for PhsyX ? 3...5.....maybe 15 or 20.... Of course this assumes that they are doing thier part and moving substantial product at retail,which they are not.Wake up and realize that a few here have bought into what amounts to gamers snake oil,currently,and move on. :)
 
Manny Calavera said:
Game Devs code based off what they see in the market currently,or think they will see in the near future.
Click to expand...
Your agains it so you only see the black option. Like Black white. while its grey. There are a lot of dev's team and they don't decide the same. So it's both.
Dev's have a choice.

1 ) reach as large target platform aviable now. Wich means keep the requierment low.
Mostly the large part off the field the low budged with short time and hard deadlines do that. And some off the larger teams. It's dev choice.
2 ) Set a game in the market that competes heavy and take Nextgen hardware into account. The AAA titles that push Hardware. And a few of the smaller teams

Most Teams don't have a project that stands out and must go the larges mainstream target platform the clones. Most games are crap and done before.
They go for a 50.000 unit break even point or so. quick buck.
while AAA titles go for 500.000. To reach that your game must stand out and been done right.
It's the games that stand out make the difference.. There come more games out that every gamer can buy. So gamers make a choice and buy there favorite game.
PhysX PPU can help to let a game stand out with uniek PhysX features and gameplay.

I estimate from those 100 projects. I'am considering at most 10 and only would buy 5 to 3this year. Plus some 5 non PhysX games. Like a HavokFX game that stand out and Crysis.

100 games means there is large atempt to make something good like 100 try's.
Most off them wont make it. But it's about the once that do. And become populair and push PPU market.
From all the games in the market 97% are left on the shelves by each gamer, they choose it's favorites.
And the PhysX cards are not moving @ retail in the numbers needed for them to be important.Its a vicious circle SuperGee,and PhsyX is a dog chasing its tail....
Click to expand...
Some game push hardware while most not. Those that pushes have the opertunity to stand out. Good PhysX support with PPU power give a game more enhancment to stand out. That why lowbudged PPU using games have a greater chance off succes. To project that do not. Some devs will Push this hardware most not. That attract more gamers creating a growing target platform. And more dev's will follow.
Do you really think any of the devs on that list,they love to tout will spill it if they have dropped support for hardware physics !?!?!?! And worse,you can't be gullible enough to believe PhysyX will hold a press conference any time soon,to tell us all,that groups of devs on the list they have compiled,are not still crunching away code for them dutifully ? So,the list is iseless,stop trotting it out.
:D
Click to expand...
Dev's have a greater understanding and experience of how the market move in to the future. They know it takes time.They know that other titles have a large impact on how it will turn out. so the choice is go with it or skip it. a gambe of staying behind or possible a greater game or waisted effort.
PPU support doesn't cost much but enhance the game greatly. Some will go for it manny not. But those can attract manny gamers wich will buy PPU to experience something new.
That list and a hundred more like it are totally worthless...My god man this is video game development ! Promise the fans the moon,and axe half the specs at launch ! That is and always has been,always will be the modus operandi...
:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
It's more most gamers have insane expectations and hype themselfs and are very impations like games are done in weeks.
If you look at it form Dev point off few PPU have still a lot of potentional. It's just as a dev they must do something worthwhile with PPU to stand out the crop off games and push the value of PPU higher. So a choice, do a average job, the next clone nr 1001 or do something new and Physics rich. From those 100 games manny will fail and be a Graw'ish failure. But some off those games will do it right. I expect it will be lower then 10 games.
While from a gamer point of view how manny games do you play a year 2000?
I buy only a few games like most people. So if there is a PPU killer app thats the one I buy or few more, wich come close and are the genre I love to play.
Most gamers the mass only play the games they like the most.
How many on that list do you really think will launch with hardware support for PhsyX ? 3...5.....maybe 15 or 20.... Of course this assumes that they are doing thier part and moving substantial product at retail,which they are not.Wake up and realize that a few here have bought into what amounts to gamers snake oil,currently,and move on. :)
Click to expand...
Well that will do if 5 will be populair and one or two is the PPU killer App we been waiting for.
It's up to the dev's now. I don't expect 100 killerapps thats rediculous.
Most games that come out generaly are clones and so been done before or crap.
It's the games that stand out. That can be only a few.
Like
Crysis for CPU
Warmonger and cellfactor for PPU.
HavokFX will have it's leading game to.

It's now unclear wich games will stand out. we have to wait wenn they are released and how the turned out to be.
 
Manny Calavera said:
[snip]
Click to expand...
I suppose the best way to argue against something when you don't have any justifiable material is to make fun of it, lots of mocking smiles to make the fans feel silly. Did you refer to any factual information in that post or is it just full of crystal ball gazing like many of the others here?

Feel free to post the sale figures you somehow acquired to come to the opinion that the PPUs are not selling, or is this another local realization that was projected on the rest of the world hmm?

Everyone has some sort of personal bias in their arguments as they attempt to push forward which ever solution they wish to win, myself included. Your post really doesn't cover which side you are taking, CPU or GPU, or are you sitting on the fence and seeing who is made standard? Since you seem to know what the DEVs think I imagine you also realize that they are very cost conscious? The market is littered with examples of cost cutting or revenue boosting attempts from the feature cuts in Oblivion, the micro transaction content or the games sold as separate episodes. With this in mind when it comes to the decision between the free Ageia physics API, and the $250000 price tag on Havok (not including the separate price of Havok FX) which do you think will appeal the most? Granted that doesn't guarantee PPU support, but every developer loves a USP to separate themselves from the competition.
 
The answer to all you 3 or 4 posters above me is simple:

Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter. This game has PhysX support. Is it my understanding that this game is based off of the Unreal3 game engine? because if it is, it's just a matter of time.....

Unreal3 engine will be licensed out for many upcoming games. Hell, the 100 game list could very well be accurate, if those developers are going to use the Unreal3 engine. UnrealTournament3 (or UnrealTournament2007 whatever they decide to call it) could very well be the single killer app that tips the scale.

Then, the following series of events will take place: If the PhysX support in the Unreal3 engine makes a significant gameplay difference, id software will have to add (if they aren't already planning on doing so) PhysX support to the next game engine that will succeed the Doom3 engine, if they want to remain a competitive and cutting edge game engine source. This alone will ensure many many more applications with support will be forthcoming. Same deal for Crytek. All three of these companies make extra money by licensing their award winning game engines to many other developers. If only 1 of these 3 developers adds well implemented Physx to the game engine:

End result: PPU wins.
 
Sales depend on the value usability for games out. So now the sales are low but could grow in numbers wenn a good PhysX games are out.
No new game out and no good ones so we have to wait for more to come.
The sales numbers now aren't responisble for Ageia PPU downfall. That will be if sales keep very low wenn a large part off those games are out, including soem good ones. And that takes time.
Yes waiting sucks but is how that industry works.
 
TeamStrykerCore said:
annoyed dragon - please provide the sales figures that ppu's are selling.

k thanx
Click to expand...
Very funny; you know very well that 'no one' here can access those figures to prove/disprove the current state of PPU sales.

However... there are some methods that can be used to get a general idea.

For instance if you check sites stocking the PPU you can see if they are re stocking when sold out, retailers won't stock hardware that sells badly. Also as I have said before you can measure the PPUs sales by the financial success of Ageia; Ageia only acquires revenue from their hardware.

So with these in mind what can we understand about the PPUs success or lack of?

Well for one all this time after release online retailers continue to stock Ageia PPUs; I have even seen Scan.co.uk for instance go out of stock then get new ones in, hardly the activity of sale conscious retailers with hardware that supposedly won't sell. As for Ageia's financial success that is a difficult one, I have been unable to find any information on how they are doing as a company within the semiconductor market. All I have to really go on is they are still around so they have not gone bankrupt from not selling enough PPUs, not much but better than the lack of evidence provided of their supposed failure.
 
AnnoyedDragon said:
For instance if you check sites stocking the PPU you can see if they are re stocking when sold out, retailers won't stock hardware that sells badly. Also as I have said before you can measure the PPUs sales by the financial success of Ageia; Ageia only acquires revenue from their hardware.
Click to expand...

Oh bullshit. We have no method by which to judge how many are ordered, how quickly they change their sites, how fast they sell etc. There is no reliable method of judging how they're selling unless the stores release figures on that. What we do know is that there is no reason to purchase a PPU right now. There are no games available which justify the cost of the PPU. God knows how many articles have been written on this topic when the PPU was introduced, (even [H] did one) and all of them agree that there is no reason to purchase a PPU right now, unless you just want to give them you're money.

So why exactly would it be selling well?

The incentives behind purchasing a PPU might change in the future if we see great games using the accelerator to make some otherwise impossible things happen. Until then, there is no reason to purchase a PPU.
 
quadnad said:
Oh bullshit. We have no method by which to judge how many are ordered, how quickly they change their sites, how fast they sell etc. There is no reliable method of judging how they're selling unless the stores release figures on that. What we do know is that there is no reason to purchase a PPU right now. There are no games available which justify the cost of the PPU. God knows how many articles have been written on this topic when the PPU was introduced, (even [H] did one) and all of them agree that there is no reason to purchase a PPU right now, unless you just want to give them you're money.

So why exactly would it be selling well?

The incentives behind purchasing a PPU might change in the future if we see great games using the accelerator to make some otherwise impossible things happen. Until then, there is no reason to purchase a PPU.
Click to expand...
Neither side is debating that the PPU needs more titles, we all understand that and there are high profile titles such as Unreal Tournament 3 due to be released. The PPU definitely needs time to prove its worth, but the real question is will people let it prove its worth or damn it before it can?

This is a thread that is declaring that the PPU is dead, whether or not the PPU is dead and will it die in the near future is the subject of this debate. There cannot be a fair debate without people willing to strongly argue for both sides; should one side make a claim it is the job of the other to demand proof or disprove it themselves, it is through debate that areas are highlighted and discussed that would previously have not been identified. Without this the thread would just be full of like minded people agreeing with each other and overall achieving nothing.

My argument regarding Ageia's continuing existence being proof of PPU sales occurring is in response to someone who challenged for proof of them selling in retail. Neither of us could prove whether or not the PPU was selling well, so I offered a theory as to how such information could at least be partially obtained. I took a situation were neither of us had information and rationalized it in a way where my side of the argument would benefit, it is after all my role in this debate to support the PPU in any way I can.

The success or failure of the PPU begins in the minds of the consumer, discussions in a negative manner convincing the majority that something is bad can have just as big a influence on a products success as its value. By providing a alternative argument, by showing that the situation is not as bad as those with their own personal motives claim, you can maintain the positive image of a product long enough for it to have a chance at succeeding.

My point? Please allow people to debate the fate of the PPU in a civil manner, even if it seems pointless to you.
 
Yeah but we can too tell how retail of the PPU is going. Just ask fellow forum members? How many of us actually own a PPU. We're all about buying next gen and hardcore components. It should be a fair representation of what the market will support.
 
TeamStrykerCore said:
Yeah but we can too tell how retail of the PPU is going. Just ask fellow forum members? How many of us actually own a PPU. We're all about buying next gen and hardcore components. It should be a fair representation of what the market will support.
Click to expand...

I'd argue that it's an unfair representation of the market, but slanted in favor of the PPU because of [H] member's willingness to buy new and exciting hardware.

As for UT3, I agree that the engine support could prove to be a huge feather in Ageia's cap. I am however very cautious as to what degree it will integrate into gameplay; $150 could provide quite a boost in other areas of a computer, and a PPU is going to have to show that it is worth the money.

AnnoyedDragon said:
situation is not as bad as those with their own personal motives claim
Click to expand...

Personal motives? wtf? now you're saying that I have something to gain from PPUs never reaching their potential?
[H]ard|OCP agrees with me: "PhysX needs killer apps, soon. Otherwise it risks simply becoming another obscure product that never reached its true potential."
Maximum PC ran two seperate articles on the PPU; one when they were released and one six months later. They also agree with me:"It&#8217;s been six months since I first laid my hands on an Ageia PhysX card, for a review published in our July issue, and I still don&#8217;t see any reason why Maximum PC readers should buy one."
GotFrag agrees with me: "It is unfortunate really, that the PhysX PPU has such mediocre software support at this stage. The technology in the card, in our opinion, is clearly powerful and has a tremendous amount of potential. However, there are no games, at least no games that anybody is really going to want to play, that support the PhysX technology."

The list of people who believe that the PPU has potential but it isn't (and won't be) realized for a while is endless. All of the articles which "review" (as though there is a way to review the cards) the Physx PPU also mention the two ton gorilla with a massive installed developer base, Havok. Could these calculations be done on a multicore CPU? Could these calculations be done on one GPU, with either integrated or seperate physics processing units on board? Could these calculations be done on a second or third inexpensive GPU (7600GTs are hitting the $100 mark!)?

I'm not saying that PPUs are dead, or that they ever will be. I'm not a doomsayer. I just think that right now they are completely useless. In fact, I think that it will probably be at least another year until there are any more compelling reasons to purchase one (good game support, PCI-E, and <=$100 price tag), and that is only if Havok does nothing in terms of competition.
 
quadnad i agree with you. I meant even going in favor of the PPU we still know that sales aren't strong and that's biasing towards the ppu market in that aspect.
 
TeamStrykerCore said:
quadnad i agree with you. I meant even going in favor of the PPU we still know that sales aren't strong and that's biasing towards the ppu market in that aspect.
Click to expand...

:D

Hey, did you even get the info Eclipse needed for the 65nm o/c thread? It's important! Those brisbanes and F3 steppings are making it really hard for me to resist starting a new build until the summer...
 
Oh! LOL with my xbox 360 down I need some time to pull apart my case and install a new front bay w/ thermal sensing be a perfect time to install some arctic silver and get the info. :p
 
Quadnad by personal motives I am not referring to you directly, but rather the people who are anti PPU just because they want one of the other methods to become the standard. Keep in mind that I am addressing many people in the thread, not just individuals.
 
AnnoyedDragon said:
Quadnad by personal motives I am not referring to you directly, but rather the people who are anti PPU just because they want one of the other methods to become the standard. Keep in mind that I am addressing many people in the thread, not just individuals.
Click to expand...

I see. I suppose there are a few of those people out there, although it's difficult to side with either one considering neither really has anything worthwhile (or in the case of Havok FX, anything at all) available.

I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm all for the success of some kind of physics processing, and there is no reason why Ageia can't topple the more entrenched Havok crowd (AMD did it to Intel for years [I'm a fan of underdogs!]). I would just like to see some concrete developments from either side showing me something on a PPU, GPU, or CPU that improves my gameplay. Wasn't there some Physx powered military RTS which had all sorts of destruction going on in the trailer? I can't remember if it used the PPU, but the buildings were getting absolutely demolished, and it looked like it had a lot of potential...
 
AnnoyedDragon said:
That would be joint task force, it came out a little while ago. Check YouTube for fan made videos.
Click to expand...

GameSpot
6.5 out of 10
GameSpy
2.5 out of 5
IGN
5.7 out of 10
PC Gamer
71 out of 100

:(
I remember being excited about this title too...
 
Well it is as I said on YouTube; Ageia only makes the hardware, it is up to the developers to utilize it effectively. The damage you can do in the game is pretty cool, but that doesn't matter if the developers half assed the game.
 
AnnoyedDragon said:
Ageia only makes the hardware, it is up to the developers to utilize it effectively. The damage you can do in the game is pretty cool, but that doesn't matter if the developers half assed the game.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. Hopefully there will be a string of AAA PPU (from one camp or another) enabled games to push this along. Hell, I'll settle for decent games.
 
Silverfall has pushed me over to the PPU camp so I'll be picking one up this weekend hopefully.
 
Spewn said:
Bullshit. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever isn't dead, or Team Fortress 2 isn't dead. Sure, technically the companies behind them haven't put them in the ground yet, but I'd still call them dead.
Click to expand...

They live! They LIIIIVE!!!

http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/10367
http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/12092
http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/12076

Just being facetious here, but if Team Fortress 2 is near release, and 3DRealms is sinking massive labor budget into DNF, then maybe Ageia perform a Lazarus as well.
 
SatinSpiral said:
... if Team Fortress 2 is near release, and 3DRealms is sinking massive labor budget into DNF, then maybe Ageia perform a Lazarus as well.
Click to expand...

Except that in both of those cases the developers have total control of what happens, in Ageia's case it's totally out of their hands, all they can do is punt it out there and pray, the issue here isn't whether the ppu hardware is any good, it's what you can do with it if you buy one, which for now and the near future is nothing at all.
 
MartinX said:
Except that in both of those cases the developers have total control of what happens, in Ageia's case it's totally out of their hands,
Click to expand...
Mostdevs don't have that controle. They depend on publishers cash input and cooperation. These guy's are more a exception with a lot of own cash input to fool around for such long time. Like they are independant?
Yes it is totaly out of ageia hands. But this is one game. While ageia supporting 100+ games give a wider atempt where it very unlikly but not imposible that all will fail, but most will fail. And it needs at least one killer game or several decent PhysX games to become some kind of a sucses more is even better.
Wich means 90% of those games could be like GRAW or even worse.
But the good games count.

Like in this whole game industry most gamers only play a few games that stand out for them.
all they can do is punt it out there and pray, the issue here isn't whether the ppu hardware is any good, it's what you can do with it if you buy one, which for now and the near future is nothing at all.
Click to expand...
Well if you keep track on PhysX games CellFactor and warmonger are released in to the near future and more to come.

So the value will grow. Or is the near future for you next week? Near future is within 2007.
Dev's could do a tetris 2d clone in a week to a month.
Commercial Retail games take some years. Lucky some of them are already far over mid Produktion so a lot of them will come into 2007.
 
SuperGee said:
Well I can aquse you'all for anti PPU fanatics.:)
Or just plain short sightness.

PPU sucses is depending on a killer app.
Most of those 120+ game are still in produktion and game making takes time. So Ageia sucsses or not will unveal in 2007/2008.
Favorite wich are possibility to that are Unreal 3 Cellfactor Revolution.

They arent out yet so if the are out 3 month and are populair we will know if the adoption to PPU will take on.

And off course PPU will be benched with those games.
And around mid 2007 that time Multicore isn't Mainstream yet but still expensive by then the scheapest will reach $500 And AMD have Quad FX
Multicore will reach mainstream in 2008.
And HavokFX might be roling out there first games and or patches mid 2007.
It's year will be 2008 to.

So where is the Corpse?

While it's alive and kicking hard becouse it has a bit of a rough time.

You mentioned PS3 I just geusing.
It just out while it sucses will show in the later years it must serve Sony.
That would be 10 years. So after 5 years you can say more on that.
Also what BR will do.

Unless you have a cristal boll.

It takes time to make games. Crap once in a year good once several years. And years aren't a garanty it will be good.

Just wait how it turns out.
Click to expand...

As we've seen with the Alan wake tech demo PPU's are dead. A dedicated Core 2 core actually can do much more then Ageia's PPU (I mean just look at the Tornado scene) I haven't seen Ageia do anything remotely close.
 
ElMoIsEviL said:
As we've seen with the Alan wake tech demo PPU's are dead. A dedicated Core 2 core actually can do much more then Ageia's PPU (I mean just look at the Tornado scene) I haven't seen Ageia do anything remotely close.
Click to expand...
Right... I take it you have not read through the rest of the thread? If you did you would know that the Alan Wake demonstration is actually a example as to why CPU physics is bad right now.

The most powerful (and expensive) quad core conroe, overclocked 1 ghz, a entire core dedicated to just physics and this is the best it can do? There are more objects and particles being spun around in the cellfactor revolution trailer than that tech demo, it didn't even cause object mesh damage it just broke apart pre made pieces. Object collision and effect particles are not anything new, even HalfLife 2 had that, it just did them at a larger scale.

What a waste, considering what else that core could have been used for. Area's such as the seamless streaming of game data in the background to allow the movement between large environments without loading screens are examples of how CPU power can be better spent. Something the CPU will be constantly doing while running this game, leaving little room to dedicate a entire core to physics. You have a core for running the game, a core for background streaming and other threaded tasks, that already covers a dual core. You will need a quad to run this game plus the physics.

This has the issue of being monstrously more expensive than anything the general audience can afford, enthusiast gamers may drool over this but it is meaningless to developers if only the minority can afford the hardware to run it. Unlike graphics physics is difficult to scale when it is related to gameplay, making it inaccessible to budget and mainstream gamers. What developer in their right mind would make a game like that? More than likely the Alan Wake tornado tech demo was a Intel sponsored demonstration rather than a actually gameplay showing, if it comes included in the final game it will probably be something optional to turn on for the few people trying to justify their quad purchase with so little software support.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top