PPU's Dead

[SuperGee]

I think we got a new Terra on these forums... perhaps it's the same person?

How to call this. It's not flaming. But playing on the man. No discussion at all.
Well what ever Terra is your the same but only one from the other side.
I don't agree al the way with terra. But the thread here is "Is PPU Dead" Make that sens releasing 120+ games for something that dead. The First symtom of this deadiness would be a large scale stop of PPU Support.

Welcome to 2007 games do calculate physics in them currently without addon hardware.

Sure But PPU and GgPU with HavokFX is using a lot more Phsyics by using added Physics Power by dedicated hardware. your CPU Phsyics is the low basis of Physics we are use to. PPU and GPU enhance this with a lot more, that the difference. And with that only PPU games are out while non GPU Physics using Game.

The fact that DX10 already has some physics functionality and the fact that a Direct Physics API is coming, and the fact that DX10 GPUs are fully programmable and, as indicated by the 8800GTX, have a lot of power and, finally, the fact that dual core procs are becoming a commodity and quad core will be soon all seems to paint a dim picture for a dedicated PPU.

First PhysX aPI is free jsut Like the DX SDK and wenn This DirectPhysX comes out it's years in the future where it's next gen PPU. and Ageia can deliver a DirectX Driver for there PPU's Chips.
First PPU is a addon on top off Dualcore. quadcore will be this year still to expensive for most people. While the cost of PPU Card is a lot less.
Then Again Quadcore isn't the answer agianst PPU. The QC must do a lot off task. Task that would stay behind to catch up on PPU.

While a PPU Game use QC for a higher level Off AI. A QC only Phsyics solution have avarage Phsycs abilties but still stupid AI.
QC is shared power.

A G80 is powerfull will do soem Physics. But quess what you can put a PPU next to a G80.
So what do you compare.

G80+PPU vs G80. // The last one get a large FPS hit. That shared
G86(midrange) + PPU vs G80 This scores almost equaly
G80+PPU VS G80+ G80 // The Havok FX solution is more Expensive.
G80+PPU VS G80+ G86 // IS more equal in Price PhysicsPerformance.

This is really very much like what happened with audio and 3d rendering. The industry just doesnt tolerate a single vendor API solution for long.

Yes and that a good thing but not necciserly a bad thing for Ageia.
It hurt HavokFX jsut as hard on the API side.
But Ageia can shift pure to PPU produktion and use DX as API.

Also, physics processing is not an unknown, it is just handled by the CPU today, obviously. So with a dedicated PPU (today) you theoretically get a more impressive experience (VERY subjective from what I've seen), but it seems you DO see a framerate hit in at least some of the games that implemented PhysX support. Thats not good.

Well The goal of PPU is enhance games with more Physics. But off course at Playable FPS.
I don't expect Using Highere resolution or FSAA that the FPS stay's the same. thats whish full thinkin. But AF with a small it is what we all strive for.

So you loose a bit FPS That not nice but not a large problem. If the FPS is still playable.
See it like this 2 to 5 fps hit at 45 is no problem.

A 10 hit on 25 is a problem. But instead a PPU that gamer need a better GPU.

Don't slam a Physics GPU or PPU in a low budged gamerig.
no FSAA no highres no highsetting no extra Physics.

Personally, I couldnt fit a PPU in my setup if I wanted to, so the guy who raised the mobo issue has a good point. 8800GTX SLI and the X-Fi max out physical space on the eVGA 680i.

sure it a choice do he need SLI. No so he made a choice extra Gcard vs PPU. Well maybe some day there will be External PhySX cards.
Not all mobo offers SLI to. SLI and CF means you waste a lot off slots.
Some have this problem. So you loose some.
I got 3 Rigs every rig have room for a PCI PPU

I think that before the dedicated PPU concept can gain any traction, the industry giants will have already brought a more workable solution to the table that is better for the devs (MS XNA support tends to be better than the support from a small proprietary company or from the open source community which is the real reason DX has been a success despite some people's refusal to believe it), uses existing hardware by either working in software and spawing threads that multi-core CPUs can manage or leveraging the programmable DX10 GPUs and is better for the end user since they really dont have to think about anything or buy yet another dedicated, expensive, part.

XNA DX10 isnt a Physics libary. PhysX and HavokFX is. It's a highlevel full featured API.
With CUDA HSML the dev's need 10 time the effort to make a inhouse libary to just do the same thing. and on top of it do the game specific things for there project. Wich other do that on top off PhsX or HavokFX.

 

[Ockie]

How to call this. It's not flaming. But playing on the man. No discussion at all.
Well what ever Terra is your the same but only one from the other side.
I don't agree al the way with terra. But the thread here is "Is PPU Dead" Make that sens releasing 120+ games for something that dead. The First symtom of this deadiness would be a large scale stop of PPU Support.

Not really playing on the man or the devils advocate. I have high hopes for the PPU and I still feel its hype. I've posted many times wishing they would release a PCI-E version (SLI users are quite slot limited).

It's just a matter of right now who's going to cross the finish line first. If Nvidia releases a solid PPU solution that rivals that of Ageia, then they will win the war, if Agiea can push out something quickly, then I'm sure they are still game. However, even with all these title promises I find it hard to believe as they have not materialized yet nor have we seen any true functional use of the PPU solution Ageia is offering yet.

Developers jumps on the most popular thing with the largest user base, and I think that if Nvidia/ATI comes into the game, it's going to be even greater of an uphill battle for Ageia.

If time says anything, Ageia needs to make their next move quickly.

 

[Mega2]

Most of the ppu is doing is eye candy physics.

Part of the processing GPU is eye candy.

ppu uses ddr 128mb or something on pci. 30,000-500,000 objects.

GPU stream processor is on pci-e on 67gb/sec to 80gb/sec gddr3. Something along the lines of 300~billions of operations a sec.

not sure exact values.

 

[TeamStrykerCore]

Welcome to 2007 games do calculate physics in them currently without addon hardware.

and i repeat...

 

[mlambert890]

XNA DX10 isnt a Physics libary. PhysX and HavokFX is. It's a highlevel full featured API.
With CUDA HSML the dev's need 10 time the effort to make a inhouse libary to just do the same thing. and on top of it do the game specific things for there project. Wich other do that on top off PhsX or HavokFX.

True... Today. But MS is working on a physics API for DX10 that will run on either the CPU or offload to the stream procs. Today there is rudimentary physics support in DX10, but prior to DX11, there should be a proper physics API.

 

[mlambert890]

So you loose a bit FPS That not nice but not a large problem. If the FPS is still playable.
See it like this 2 to 5 fps hit at 45 is no problem.

A 10 hit on 25 is a problem. But instead a PPU that gamer need a better GPU.

Don't slam a Physics GPU or PPU in a low budged gamerig.
no FSAA no highres no highsetting no extra Physics.

This I do agree with. A 5% fps loss would be acceptable for enhanced physics or even a higher percentage if the min fps were high enough. For example, if the game were able to run at a min of 60fps at all times, Id be willing to drop down to even a minimum in the 40s for improved physics that actually enhance the game.

Im not arguing against the need/value of enhanced physics, Im just onboard with those who feel the dedicated PPU is not where its going to come from.

 

[SuperGee]

and i repeat...
Welcome to 2007 games do calculate physics in them currently without addon hardware.

You can repeat as much as you want, But what you say will be so for a long time. Hardware accelerated Physics will be optional. And some want enhanced Phsyics games. Mo'Physics. And are willing to pay for it. And yes You get a market. And it doesn't have to be mainstream. First the hardcore gamers/ enhausiast start using it. PPU GPU for Phsyics.
The games supporting deside if they can push Gamers over the Value tresshold.

True... Today. But MS is working on a physics API for DX10 that will run on either the CPU or offload to the stream procs. Today there is rudimentary physics support in DX10, but prior to DX11, there should be a proper physics API.

So far as I know is MS more into Hardware abstraction. They don't choose a solution. They do abstraction and every Hardware have the option to make a DirecX driver for it. Ageia to. Ofcourse GpGPU could stand strong. But it's a standard for the whole market. Not just one solution. If not they break tradition.
And it will be a low level API. For the highest Flexibility. But mor ework still left for the Dev's. PhysX and Havok could jump on this. Useing there Higher order Features on top off this Abstraction layer.

This I do agree with. A 5% fps loss would be acceptable for enhanced physics or even a higher percentage if the min fps were high enough. For example, if the game were able to run at a min of 60fps at all times, Id be willing to drop down to even a minimum in the 40s for improved physics that actually enhance the game.

Me to. As a Gamer you always tune Your game to your rig. Games offer manny adjustment settings. For FSAA or HDR or that in a combination you often have to set the resolution lower. It's a choice.
Unless it want down to ModeX resoos then you have a problem.

For me its important that a PPU supporting game can do it in a Normal resoultion with all eyecandy on high adn have decent FPS.

Like I play Graw with PPU on 1800X1440x32 Why so High it doesn't support FSAA.

Im not arguing against the need/value of enhanced physics, Im just onboard with those who feel the dedicated PPU is not where its going to come from.

Well that is in the past or current situation. A promille of your life time. It's More important where it's going to.
I agree Ageia with it's PPU is having a rough time. And progressing slowly. But that common in this industry.
I would wait till there are more games including the better once. Better as a game in general and or using PhysX with PPU more to it's potentional. Then I will trow a conclusion.

 

[serialtoon]

Well I can aquse you'all for anti PPU fanatics.
Or just plain short sightness.

PPU sucses is depending on a killer app.
Most of those 120+ game are still in produktion and game making takes time. So Ageia sucsses or not will unveal in 2007/2008.
Favorite wich are possibility to that are Unreal 3 Cellfactor Revolution.

They arent out yet so if the are out 3 month and are populair we will know if the adoption to PPU will take on.

And off course PPU will be benched with those games.
And around mid 2007 that time Multicore isn't Mainstream yet but still expensive by then the scheapest will reach $500 And AMD have Quad FX
Multicore will reach mainstream in 2008.
And HavokFX might be roling out there first games and or patches mid 2007.
It's year will be 2008 to.

So where is the Corpse?

While it's alive and kicking hard becouse it has a bit of a rough time.

You mentioned PS3 I just geusing.
It just out while it sucses will show in the later years it must serve Sony.
That would be 10 years. So after 5 years you can say more on that.
Also what BR will do.

Unless you have a cristal boll.

It takes time to make games. Crap once in a year good once several years. And years aren't a garanty it will be good.

Just wait how it turns out.

Dude, what the hell did you just say?

 

[SuperGee]

Dude, what the hell did you just say?

Dude have you something like Ontopic arguments to add to this topic?

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

Greetings, I don't own a PPU but support it because of what I have learned about the alternatives. I don't feel it is right to declare it dead when it has only just started to be used, many of the highly anticipated titles that support the PPU such as CellFactor Revolution and Unreal Tournament 3 haven't been released yet. Right now we have just been seeing games utilize the PPU a bit, I wouldn't call it quits yet until we see how the market reacts to advanced games supporting it.

As for why I support the PPU...

For one I am sure everyone here is aware of the limitation Havok FX has with collision detection, being incapable of collision detection on the GPU means GPU emulated physics cannot affect gameplay limiting it to effect physics. With the assistance of the CPU it can affect gameplay but having to tap it negates the advantages of offloading it to different hardware in the first place.

Then there is of course its performance, the various video demonstrations on the web give a idea of what the API can do. The boulder demo for instance shows that on the latest GPU at the time (presuming GF 7950 range of performance) they were able to maintain around 30 fps with 30,000 complex objects running just over 100,000 convex collisions per second. This is well below the 533,000 peak convex performance of the 1st gen PPUs, even if optimization and the G80 triples these results it is still lagging behind the PPU. It also has to be taken into account that all these demonstrations have the whole GPU to run them, the real world implementation of GPU physics will be less spectacular since the GPU will also have to run a entire game with the physics. That is probably why they suggest SLI GPUs for physics, even though SLI can only be afforded by enthusiast gamers.

My observation of GPU physics has also concluded that, at least in Havok FX 1.0, the physics are limited to basic object interaction. Smoke and liquids are basically just object interaction that behave a certain way, this is fine if it is all that you need but there is allot more to physics than just that. For instance I have never seen Havok FX demonstrate material physics; it seems to be capable of adjusting a objects weight with gravity but what about dentable steel? Or stretchable rubber? I have never seen it demonstrate a cloth material, or procedural damage were a mesh is split into several pieces in real time. Either they have just not gotten up to demonstrating these affects or Havok FX is incapable of doing them, either way I have never seem them done with on GPU physics.

So in my eyes the GPU is a very poor solution for physics processing, it is attempting to emulate as a PPU while not being able to do the same affects and its deducting from graphical performance to do it. To me GPU physics only exists because Nvidia & ATI are trying to justify the need to purchase more powerful hardware when a single mid range card can play your favorite games at 1280x1024. The Nvidia smoke in a box demo is a on GPU physics demonstration anyone can grab from their official site, I encourage everyone to try it with a fps measuring program. While it is a advanced smoke simulation I feel that what you get out of it isn't worth the resources required to run it.

Then there are CPUs; I simply cannot see them leading the future of physics. Take the latest quad core demonstrations, the sheer amount of power required to achieve the affects are in my opinion not worth it. The Alan Wake demonstration for instance; here we have a highly optimized multi threaded game being used to show off Intels quad processor. They overclocked the thing a ghz and ate a entire CPU core to produce a tornado with less objects than what we have seen spinning around in the CellFactor Revolution trailer. Then there is the quad demo produced by FutureMark, again a massive amount of CPU power being used for a moderately impressive simulation.

These are highly optimized demonstrations used to promote the technology, they tend to be better coded than your average retail game and this is the best they have? For a £500+ processor I expected more; even when you take Intels upcoming price cuts into account a £300 CPU is still out of most peoples price range, £150 tends to be my budget when buying a new CPU and I doubt the mainstream consumer spends much more. Nvidia, ATI, Ageia, Havok... all of these companies have realized the sheer effort and hardware requirements to get next gen physics to run on the CPU is not worth it; AMDs and Intels excuse in trying to keep it on the CPU is to justify the need for more powerful (and expensive) processors to keep sales up, what is taking everyone else so long to realize this harsh reality? Either physics abandons the CPU or be held back by it.

So between Havok FX eating into my eye candy to run effect physics and CPUs eating resources that could be used for AI and game data I would rather have the more cost effective dedicated solution. That way both my CPU and GPU can dedicate 100% of their resources into what they are best at. The PPU being a PCI card is also very convenient for me; when CPU requirements rise I often have to pay out for a new CPU, motherboard and at times new ram all just to upgrade one component. With the PPU when processor requirements rise I only have to change one component, also by offloading physics the useful life of my CPU is extended as it has more resources to utilize.

I really think/hope the PPU will win this little physics war, if either CPUs or GPUs win then high level physics will only be available to the enthusiast market who can afford multi core and high end/SLI GPUs. With the PPU costing £130 and falling by the time it became mainstream everyone will be able to access it, not just those with deep pockets.

 

[Spewn]

A G80 is powerfull will do soem Physics. But quess what you can put a PPU next to a G80.
So what do you compare.

G80+PPU vs G80. // The last one get a large FPS hit. That shared
G86(midrange) + PPU vs G80 This scores almost equaly
G80+PPU VS G80+ G80 // The Havok FX solution is more Expensive.
G80+PPU VS G80+ G86 // IS more equal in Price PhysicsPerformance.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. If we want to estimate what one might need to run a physics-enabled game in say, a year, the breakdown might look something like;

G80/R600
(generic vid card) + PPU
2xG80/2xR600
G80/R600 + PPU

First off, there's absolutely no way to quantitatively compare the G80's physics processing performance with Aegia's PPU, so to say that one is better at it than the other is impossible at this point. If we assume they can process physics about equally, then it really doesn't make any sense to waste a slot on something that can ONLY process enhanced physics when you could, instead, populate the slot with a graphics *and* physics card. Can it do both at once? No, but it can do either, and since you probably use your computer for more than one thing, that's good.

With a pair of G80's or even a single, you can play the latest and greatest games at their fastest settings, AND, you can process physics. Not every game will include enhanced physics, so any solution with a PPU in place of a G80/R600 will serve to degrade performance in those games as the PPU sits idle.

What's more, you're asking where the corpse is? How can we call the PPU dead? It still just needs its killer app, right?

Bullshit. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever isn't dead, or Team Fortress 2 isn't dead. Sure, technically the companies behind them haven't put them in the ground yet, but I'd still call them dead.

 

[TeamStrykerCore]

What's more, you're asking where the corpse is? How can we call the PPU dead? It still just needs its killer app, right?

Bullshit. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever isn't dead, or Team Fortress 2 isn't dead. Sure, technically the companies behind them haven't put them in the ground yet, but I'd still call them dead


... Exactly. I would call it dead until proven alive?

Kind of like the Phantom console we're still going to see that really soon right

 

[SuperGee]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. If we want to estimate what one might need to run a physics-enabled game in say, a year, the breakdown might look something like;

G80/R600
(generic vid card) + PPU
2xG80/2xR600
G80/R600 + PPU

Some Games will support hardware Physics and they choose one solution. For that Game you need that solution the other will not work.
So wich games will be more your favorites. Because that's unkown to me. It might be Both. Because for me it's for the games I want to play in optimum.

First Halve of 2007 There will be more PhysXs games each Quarter. So first you need a PPU. Because for Zero HavokFX you don't need so much shader power. Then in the second halve more games pop up that can use a Extra GFX. Or one High-end card.
So I keep a CF slot over for that extra card.

Performance will matter wenn DirectX PhysX Titles are common. that's far away. And will migrate also slowly.

First off, there's absolutely no way to quantitatively compare the G80's physics processing performance with Aegia's PPU, so to say that one is better at it than the other is impossible at this point. If we assume they can process physics about equally, then it really doesn't make any sense to waste a slot on something that can ONLY process enhanced physics when you could, instead, populate the slot with a graphics *and* physics card. Can it do both at once? No, but it can do either, and since you probably use your computer for more than one thing, that's good.

Well within this year Ageia will rule in numbers off games that will be out and HavoK FX will start mid year with catch up starting from zero. While Ageia started in 2006 Havok Fx With it's GPU partners start in 2007.
So PPU perormance matter in, as there will not be mutch games around that will use GPU for Physics End 2007.

With a pair of G80's or even a single, you can play the latest and greatest games at their fastest settings, AND, you can process physics. Not every game will include enhanced physics, so any solution with a PPU in place of a G80/R600 will serve to degrade performance in those games as the PPU sits idle.

A Idle PPU have no influence at all at what ever performance. A PPU in idle state doesn't draw much power to. Compared to G80. If you surf iNet a SLI G80 Shaders are very idle and draw a lot more power. Searchin for a stick to hit the dog.

What's more, you're asking where the corpse is? How can we call the PPU dead? It still just needs its killer app, right?

Bullshit. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever isn't dead, or Team Fortress 2 isn't dead. Sure, technically the companies behind them haven't put them in the ground yet, but I'd still call them dead.

I think it's more you want Ageia be Death. But it's not up to the Ageia haters. if enough people like PhysX and want it to play in optimal PhysX settings PPU will sell. And Ageia will be alive for some time. If great sucses keeps Away doesn't mean your death. There is a grow time wich you ignore largly. And off course between failure and max sucses there is a width Greyscale where a large upper part off it is still profitable. Hard competition keeps the player sharp.
Competition is good.

And wenn the standard comes out the choice will be witch solution performce for the money. Price Performance ratio. But that's far and away.

What's more, you're asking where the corpse is? How can we call the PPU dead? It still just needs its killer app, right?
Bullshit. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever isn't dead, or Team Fortress 2 isn't dead. Sure, technically the companies behind them haven't put them in the ground yet, but I'd still call them dead

... Exactly. I would call it dead until proven alive?

Proven Alive depends on what the dev's think. supports is critical. Like they are professionals they look farther then that one second you do.
Proven Alive? Prove that its death? Like a Press release off Ageia Faillisement. throwing the tow into the ring.

Kind of like the Phantom console we're still going to see that really soon right

Like I said before some only can look like seconds in to the Future. PS3 is out a few month. It must go 5 to 10 years.
So If it still doesn't look good like after 2 years or so I got worried.

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

You know as PC users everyone here should understand me when I say I don't put much stock in people declaring something is dead. Seeing how the PPU isn't showing any signs of dieing (stock disappearing online, game support cancellations) I have faith that its support will continue to grow.

 

[Spewn]

Some Games will support hardware Physics and they choose one solution. For that Game you need that solution the other will not work.
So wich games will be more your favorites. Because that's unkown to me. It might be Both. Because for me it's for the games I want to play in optimum.

Right. Remember Glide?

Moving right along.

First Halve of 2007 There will be more PhysXs games each Quarter. So first you need a PPU. Because for Zero HavokFX you don't need so much shader power. Then in the second halve more games pop up that can use a Extra GFX. Or one High-end card.
So I keep a CF slot over for that extra card.

It seems like the only argument you aegians can come up with is "Eventually, titles will be released." How am I supposed to respond to conjecture?

A Idle PPU have no influence at all at what ever performance. A PPU in idle state doesn't draw much power to. Compared to G80. If you surf iNet a SLI G80 Shaders are very idle and draw a lot more power. Searchin for a stick to hit the dog.

So your argument is that it's more energy efficient to run a PPU? I suppose if this ever comes down to "Can I afford the power bill?" your argument might be relevant. Otherwise I think you're grasping at straws.

I think it's more you want Ageia be Death. But it's not up to the Ageia haters. if enough people like PhysX and want it to play in optimal PhysX settings PPU will sell. And Ageia will be alive for some time. If great sucses keeps Away doesn't mean your death. There is a grow time wich you ignore largly. And off course between failure and max sucses there is a width Greyscale where a large upper part off it is still profitable. Hard competition keeps the player sharp.
Competition is good.

Never said there was anything wrong with competition. If I'm talking about Aegia's PPU, I'll say so. If I say "PPU" I mean any piece of hardware completely dedicated to enhancing physics within games.

Beyond that, Aegia needs to show a pulse before you can call them alive. Honestly, if Glide stayed in the background(never really penetrating the mainstream), at what point would you have called its death? It's easy to call the death of something successful, Aegia just hasn't done enough of anything for anyone to notice when they've died. We smell death, and we're putting two and two together.

And wenn the standard comes out the choice will be witch solution performce for the money. Price Performance ratio. But that's far and away.

Finally, something we agree on. Unfortunately, the performance of a given system will depend on the game you're playing, and even then the performance difference between a 2xG80 and G80+Aegia PPU will need benchmarks to back it up for each game(because not all games will require the same amount of physical or graphical "oomph").

Aegia's PPU died the day nVidia released the G80. From a developer's standpoint, this will be like Betamax vs. VHS. If 80% of the "physics enabled" marketplace consists of G80 owners, leaving only 20% for Aegia owners, and your game can only support one setup; which one will you program for?

If Aegia's PPU outsells the G80, well, I guess my argument wouldn't stand.

 

[SuperGee]

You know as PC users everyone here should understand me when I say I don't put much stock in people declaring something is dead. Seeing how the PPU isn't showing any signs of dieing (stock disappearing online, game support cancellations) I have faith that its support will continue to grow.

Yes. The only thing I see is Ageia has competition wich is by some GPU fan's offcourse favorite. But that is not dead but competition.

So far as I know Cellfactor and UT2007 Unreal3.0 are still in the pipeline.

 

[Grimlaking]

As a consumer of pretty high end hardware for Ageia to win my gaming dollar they need to be able to show that in supporting titles they can run Physics portion of the title to a degree that it compares to an SLI solution for less money. Do I need it to be equal to? No not really. I want comparative. If I can get equal to or better that would be a definite purchase.

Lets put it this way. With the solution I built I did not go with an SLI motherboard. SLI is not in my future. BUT if I can slap a PPU into an PCIE 1x or PCI slot and get comparable performance... I will do that.

 

[Raidium]

As a consumer of pretty high end hardware for Ageia to win my gaming dollar they need to be able to show that in supporting titles they can run Physics portion of the title to a degree that it compares to an SLI solution for less money. Do I need it to be equal to? No not really. I want comparative. If I can get equal to or better that would be a definite purchase.

Lets put it this way. With the solution I built I did not go with an SLI motherboard. SLI is not in my future. BUT if I can slap a PPU into an PCIE 1x or PCI slot and get comparable performance... I will do that.

This is really the heart of the arguement here and I think speaks well to both sides. In reality the paper specs mean little. So lets talk about what really matters. What will matter to the consumer is the delta between gameplay and experience that a PPU can offer over any other solution. Its going to have to be pretty damn impressive for me to shell out several hundred bucks for what ammounts to a dedicated core processing physics and sucking up precious PCI bandwidth. From what I have seen so far a PPU doesnt blow my socks off. Maybe some day but that doesnt matter in an industry that moves this fast.

Look at the worlds most sucessful software titles. Overall the games that are on top are ones that are console ready or ported. The impact that a PPU would have on those games is in my opinion rather limited. PArtly this has to do with the fact that more family friendly or adventure games tend to fall out on top. That means no, what I would consider, mainstream support and development for PPU, at least until the next round of consoles. Now only time is going to tell us if ageia can sell folks on their application method, or out do NVIDIA or ATI or whoever else steps into this niche (for now).

What about the developers perspective? This is really simple. I think I pretty much covered it with a past post but we will visit it again. It doesnt matter if the game engine supports making calls to the PPU. It costs me money to take advantage of those features. Be it license costs, the time it takes to write the code, create the effects... it doesnt matter. It all costs me something.

So...

In the end Ageia or any other competitor in the market will have to supply developers with the tools, resources, incentives and business case making PPU profitable. The consumer will have to see what I would call "obvious" benifits. Finnaly the folks that review these games and the press are going to have to really SELL thepublic on the things or it will flop. If NVIDIA can do it on my GPU with comparable or better performance... I dont have to spend any more money and I get the features...built in

If it does flop it will flop for one, more or a combination of several reasons. Either a competitor comes into the arena (NVIDIA, AMD-ATI) and does their own PPU &-or takes over PPU functions, DX10 makes needing a PPU obsolete, Quad \ Octo \ whatever core procs make a PPU obsolete, Ageia fails to put the tools in the developers hands and show the gamers that PPU makes a must have for the ultimate game experience. Even if they do that last item the market for extreme gamer is not going explode your product into every gamer household. Now the sweet deal they have with Dell and possibly some other OEMs is probably netting them some serious cash because there are quite a few stupid consumers out there that only want a PPU because its another radio button to click in the uber ultimate PC package.

It will take much more than a few FPS or even PC titles to make PPU the wave of the future.

I am by no means an oracle but I think that the following prediction will become true. The PPU will be the catalyst for invention that NVIDIA and ATI needed to take stream\cell\whatever processing to the next level. You will soon see physics done more efficently and cheaper with the GPU or CPU. Which both happen to reside on a faster bus with more power than the stand alone PPU could ever provide. They will integrate these features into their cards (like 3d sound and sound cards) and you will pay for it via the normal technology trickle down. In years we will see developers taking regular advantage of the technology because it will simply be ingrained into how D3D works.

I was wrong once before and she wont ever let me forget. I could be wrong again...

 

[TeamStrykerCore]

Like I said before some only can look like seconds in to the Future. PS3 is out a few month. It must go 5 to 10 years.
So If it still doesn't look good like after 2 years or so I got worried.



Your really think that the market is going to support the PS3 better than it is now? It's aging technology already. The support that was wanted there isn't there and people are going to buy the next latest / greatest thing at a good price. The only reason why consoles are so popular is because children / aging adults know what they get when they open the box. A console that will play games. And just in case Sony execs havent figured it out yet. The main market they should be targeting (not us hardcore gamers) / the parents small children etc. Aren't the richest people in America and when they go to the store. They have no idea what the technology means. They just buy it based off of price. They want to make the children happy, but if a parent can hold off and say buy their kid a ps2 for $110 they are going to do that, because they know they'll have to continue to buy games regularly. I'm an avid fan of consoles and I can't see myself buying a PS3 right now just for that reason. Even if they just made a deal with immersion for rumble


Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamStrykerCore
and i repeat...
Welcome to 2007 games do calculate physics in them currently without addon hardware.

You can repeat as much as you want, But what you say will be so for a long time. Hardware accelerated Physics will be optional. And some want enhanced Phsyics games. Mo'Physics. And are willing to pay for it. And yes You get a market. And it doesn't have to be mainstream. First the hardcore gamers/ enhausiast start using it. PPU GPU for Phsyics.
The games supporting deside if they can push Gamers over the Value tresshold.

It's like buying a car with a supercharger. Does everyone buy the supercharger? Or do they get along better without that extra 30 - 75 horsepower from the factory *if that much*


Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamStrykerCore
What's more, you're asking where the corpse is? How can we call the PPU dead? It still just needs its killer app, right?
Bullshit. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever isn't dead, or Team Fortress 2 isn't dead. Sure, technically the companies behind them haven't put them in the ground yet, but I'd still call them dead

... Exactly. I would call it dead until proven alive?

Proven Alive depends on what the dev's think. supports is critical. Like they are professionals they look farther then that one second you do.
Proven Alive? Prove that its death? Like a Press release off Ageia Faillisement. throwing the tow into the ring.

I would say that it's definately not going to be the next usb 2.0, it might even go the way of the "Turbo" button that was found on most cases


For the people touting on about SLI solutions and buying a PPU instead. SLI hasn't proven to be that viable yet?
You have to buy a larger PSU, an SLI MOBO, and a second video card? That in itself hasn't really justified going SLI, because
at that point you can sell your old GPU and buy the next latest / greatest GPU with all the money you saved and be done with it.


My closing statement is this.. The PPU may have been a great idea, however; it's going the way of a toy in a cereal box.
Larger companies are going to come out with their own solutions and like everyone keeps preaching in this thread. It's really
up to the developers and what they think the market is going to support. The market will support a new GPU over a PPU.
How often do people want to upgrade and buy these parts? How often is the PPU going to become obsolete? Those are the main
questions. If it walks like a duck, then its a duck. Basically I smelled death upon the announcement of the PPU. I am calling death.
The only way I forsee it living is with a sub $100 price tag and promised support for 4 years out of the box. They will definatley
need HP or Dell to pick them up in their main boxes as well.

Until Proven Alive

 

[Raidium]

^^^^ Give this user a cookie ^^^^

Totaly agree , SLI while here now has yet to prove its worth.. at least to me. Youre talking about technology that been around years now.

BTW Havok has been doing physics since the 90s. Its a much more well known tool.

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

The problem with CPUs is they use a brute force approach on physics, they are not designed suitably for the job but they will throw resources at it until it works. This is extremely wasteful with resources that would be better spent on game logic and AI, it is like the time CPUs touted they could do transformation and lighting like GPUs and ended up eating most of their power. Dedicated solutions will always be more efficient than general purpose, just look at the number of general purpose piplines G80s need for equivalent processing power of pixel and vertex pipelines. Take a look at the multi core physics demonstrations available on the web; the Alan wake quad core demonstration for instance. In this demonstration using the most powerful commercially available CPU in the market they ate a entire core for a tornado simulation, a entire core, consider what else you could have done with that core to add to the game?

My point being is the sheer amount of hardware power we have to throw at CPU physics worth what we get out of it? The cheapest quad core processor you can buy today is over £500, in the future with the AMD/Intel price wars we can expect it to drop to around £300. To me this is still far too expensive for a 'mainstream' physics solution, if the future is just throwing more cores at the problem then the only people who will have access to such physics are the enthusiast crowed.

GPUs aren't any better; since they cannot perform collision detections because their general purpose pipelines are read only both a powerful GPU and CPU are required for Havok FX physics. Another problem is next generation physics deal with many objects, you can blow up a building and have debree rain down on the area. Each piece of that building will require to be rendered on the GPU; each piece will require textures, normal mapping, shaders, bump mapping, HDR etc. which is even more work on the GPU. Add physics on top of that and you will require quite a high end GPU or even a SLI system to run your games.

The gaming industry is not run on the highest end processors and graphics cards, it is the middle ground that make up the majority. With this fact in mind I cannot see either the CPU or GPU leading the future of physics, or at least with their current position on getting everyone to buy enthusiast level hardware.

 

[GoodBoy]

The only thing I see as realistically making a PPU a desired component in the near term, will be the Unreal3 engine.

I recall hearing years ago that ageia was working closely to get support added for the ageia ppu. Whether or not this is still true I do not know.

If Unreal3 engine does have physics support for ageia, it is also very likely to support GPU physics/HavokFX as well. This would be the best choice for the success of the game engine and for gamers. The unreal3 engine could wind up powering 10 or more big games over the next couple years, building it to support multiple physics options would be logical. Same way it supports EAX or directsound, etc.

So, the success of ANY PPU solution, be it GPU powered havok, or ageia, will be performance (some sort of real benefit to the game, single player and/or multiplayer), and price. If the numbers we have seen can be believed, or if they actually translate into the gameplay experience, then the aegia card will win for both performance and price. Numbers I am referring to said something along the lines of 533,000 operations per second for the ageia vs 100,000 for a GPU/havok demo. The GPU solutions, while tidy, if they reduce FPS significantly, or if they do not impact gameplay as well as the ageia, will not be the desired solution for gamers. Why buy sli or crossfire, when the $150 card has better performance? Besides, if they can afford sli, they can afford another $150 for ageia's PPU and will want it.

It boils down to the killer app, which the unreal3 engine could be, to make ppu's take off. Seperate physics calculations are the future of gaming. General purpose CPU's suck at physics with the precision the ageia one can do (inefficient). We now have in our PC's, main cpu, GPU, audio CPU (optional, but has proven benefits), network cpu (killer nic, has some proven performance benefits), and in some cases even other dedicated cpus (scsi or sata controllers can have cpu to run raid functions. this is not talking about any mobo's built in raid mind you).

Specialized cpus is the general trend we are moving too. Partly because we are approaching the limits of silicon. CPU's aren't quite holding to moores law any more. It's taking longer to see noticeable speed improvements. So cpu vendors are adding cores instead,

Give it 5 years, games will finally be multi-core capable (capable means making efficient use of multi-cores. NO current game really does that, even if they can use multiple cores. Usually they only offload certain parts of a games total cpu useage to other cores. overall it is still very inefficient) and when that day comes it should be a bright day for gamers.

 

[MartinX]

Wow, I had forgotten PPUs exist, going well then is it?

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

Give it 5 years

This is something I keep hearing; give it a few 'years' and there will be no need for a PPU. In a few 'years' PPUs will be built into our GPUs removing the need for a ad on board, in a few 'years' Havok FX will be widely supported and the PPU will lose, in a few 'years' everything will be multi core and there will be specialist cores for physics.

But here is the thing, that is in a few years! What about now? What can give me next gen physics right now? I don't care what Havok FX can supposedly do on paper and tech demos, I don't care that in so and so years everything will be on CPU again with cores dedicated to specific tasks. People spend so much time devaluing the PPU because of possible alternatives that they forget that none of them are in use right now.

People tend to replace their systems every 18 or so months when the new games are beyond their current systems capabilities. If it is going to be 2-5 years before the alternatives to the PPU are finally in full throttle I don't see why we should ignore what is in front of our faces right now. Besides Ageia is not going to stand still, who is to say there will not be a PPU V2 in the next 1-2 years or a significant software update? Even Havok says if the next PPU supports shader model 3 Ageia will become a partner rather than a competitor, benefiting from both PhysX and Havok FX games.

Keep in mind back in the day the operating system developed by IBM was superior to Windows 95, but it failed because people kept daydreaming about the promises of Windows 95 supposedly being superior instead of taking advantage of the good product they had access to right now. Who would have thought history would repeat itself?

 

[MartinX]

Name 5 AAA titles coming out this year where a PPU will give a significant benefit and I'll buy one.

3 and I might consider it.

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

Can you honestly say you can do the same for Havok FX? I don’t think they have any normal games let alone AAA ones. AAA is a pretty rare type with only a few games having the honour of wearing the title, it is not really fair to put an expectation like 5 AAA titles in one year on the PPU. I don’t think that many come out in a year overall.

I am not saying everyone should go out and buy a PPU right now; even I have requirements set before I purchase one, however its worth is being underestimated in this topic. Just because the market isn’t exploding with PPU titles fully utilising the hardware doesn’t mean it is automatically going to fail. Everyone criticised the GPU until the Doom community modded the game to utilise a GPU and proved its usefulness, like the first graphics cards the PPU just needs a high profile title to get it going.

Try the unofficial PhysX website, its support list is far more up to date than what is shown on the official website. I was actually surprised to hear that high profile games like Project Offset will be supporting the PPU.

 

[Raidium]

I dont think there is no value in them. I think several of us are simply outlining the fact that unless they kick it up a notch and prove to the public that games with PPU are an order of magnitude better than those without...they will go away. The reviews so far are saying it is little more than novelty.

They claim that fluid dynamics are the real selling point of this thing. I dont know about you but I have an 8800 and I have a demo where my 8800 is doing water and "fluid dynamics" in DX10 very very nicely. I think that there are upwards of 6 emitters as well.

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

I dont think there is no value in them. I think several of us are simply outlining the fact that unless they kick it up a notch and prove to the public that games with PPU are an order of magnitude better than those without...they will go away. The reviews so far are saying it is little more than novelty.

They claim that fluid dynamics are the real selling point of this thing. I dont know about you but I have an 8800 and I have a demo where my 8800 is doing water and "fluid dynamics" in DX10 very very nicely. I think that there are upwards of 6 emitters as well.

A fact I am not questioning, but bringing up that it needs a high profile game to prove its worth is a world apart from the people preaching that it is dead regardless of what other information is brought to the debate.

By 8800 fluid dynamics I take it you are referring to the smoke demo? Keep in mind like all of the Nvidia technical demonstrations what is shown will not be seen in games for a good couple of years. These kinds of demonstrations tend to be above what is capable in todays games such as with the Luna and Mad Mod Mike demos released with the 7 series, so they often focus all your resources on demonstrating a few features.

I have the demo myself and can confirm by monitoring CPU usage and GPU temperature that it is a Havok FX demo that is run on the GPU. Measuring with Fraps I get 20fps with a 7900GT, I am aware that a 8800 is much more powerful than my card but considering the small scale of the effect you don't get much for the hardware power you are throwing at it. I cannot imagine the same effect being used in situations such as to cover a misty graveyard which requires it to be used at a far greater scale than a small box, maybe if they toned its complexity down greatly but definitely not at the level demonstrated in this demo. Are you able to post a fps reading of the demo with your G80? Keep in mind you have to add the workload of a entire game on top of that.

 

[Godmachine]

PPU's are dead. In the next 3-4 years there will be 12 core CPU's on the consumer market that will handle everything. Not just physics but sound,graphics and everything inbetween. In the next 5-10 years we will just have a single socket physical chip with 20+ cores running everything required, motherboards will begin to get extremely small and the only other thing that will blossom is solid state memory. We will have RAM in the 15+ gigabyte range faster than the best video card ram currently out. Cheap solid state memory will make 300+ gigabyte solid state drives common place. I can completely see all of this happening in that time frame. Nvidia see's it and is rumored to be working on a total solution "CPU/GPU".



But so what? its the advancement of technology as we know it. Without PPU's to start off people wouldn't see the need to dedicate anything to physics processing as we know it. Now that we have had PPU's we are only going to get better , cheaper technology.


So while PPU is coming to its end, its gave developers/designers/engineers idea's for the evolution of PPU's as we know it.

 

[Raidium]

I have the demo myself and can confirm by monitoring CPU usage and GPU temperature that it is a Havok FX demo that is run on the GPU. Measuring with Fraps I get 20fps with a 7900GT, I am aware that a 8800 is much more powerful than my card but considering the small scale of the effect you don't get much for the hardware power you are throwing at it. I cannot imagine the same effect being used in situations such as to cover a misty graveyard which requires it to be used at a far greater scale than a small box, maybe if they toned its complexity down greatly but definitely not at the level demonstrated in this demo. Are you able to post a fps reading of the demo with your G80? Keep in mind you have to add the workload of a entire game on top of that.

It is a Dx10 Demo, Waterfall. I wasnt aware that the 7X could run DX10 under vista.

 

[TeamStrykerCore]

It probably downgraded the shaders etc to DX9

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

I don't run Vista and no, 7 series cards still cannot run DX10 apps. I was referring to the smoke in a box demo that uses fluid dynamics to simulate air particles, the waterfall demo uses a similar system but doesn't seem volumetric like the box demo.

[snip]

Instead of declaring the death of the PPU without bringing up any evidence (like allot of people in here seem to be doing) and regurgitating someone else's prediction of the future (which I am sure the CPU companies had no part in) how about talking about the now? As in right now?

Why are people using FUTURE technology that is no where near retail to bash the present PPU? By the same logic why bother with the Nvidia 8 series? The Nvidia 9 series is so much more superior... maybe because they are separated by 18 months. But we are not talking about 18 months here are we? We are talking 3-5 years! With the complete uncertainty of the future during it.

Can we please look at what we have been presented with now instead of daydreaming about what we could have in the future? Or are people saying CPUs/GPUs are unable to compete with Ageia in the present? If not then please stick with present/near future products.

 

[TeamStrykerCore]

Well presently most people dont care about a PPU.

Decidingly more and more people are hopping on over to console gaming. We see threads about it here everyday. Why?

Because it works. Because game players want to relax. Pop in a game and just play and not spend $1000's on hardware. They'd rather spend the money on the games.

That's why I bought a 360 and I used to be a hardcore PC gamer.

This is part of the reason why I declare the PPU dead.

But then again like the guy said that posted above me lets not look at 3-5 years lets look now. The ppu's are dead right now there's no reason to declare them alive atm.

 

[Godmachine]

You want evidence? How about the fact that game support for PPU's is still basicly nothing. Havent seen any games in months that advertise this feature and use it til the fullest. Also, 1 or 2 games here and there dont count. A quad core CPU could dedicate one (for example) 2.6ghz core to nothing but physics in a game and i can tell you right now that single core will be much faster than a PCI PPU.


More evidence? Goto any Fry's and you will see sometimes dozen's of unsold PPU cards that have been sitting there for months on end. My local Fry's had 14 cards on the shelfs for about 5 months (confirmed that with a manager) ... and sold 3 total that time. They then discounted them , still no more sold. So they stopped carring them. Considering its the only PPU hardware they currently sell, discontinuing sales on it is a pretty blunt of sign of PPU's not fairing as well as they should.

Why would PPU's continue to prosper? with multicore systems being common place its only a matter of time before AGIEA either gets bought out or the developers adapt software aimed at multi-core CPU's to function similarly to PPU's.

If you cant see the evidence then either your plunging your head in the sand or you just bought a PPU and are refusing to admit that might not have been a good choice in the long run.

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

[snip]

No offense but I don't think anyone cares what a console user has to say on PC hardware, especially one demonstrating the traits associated with console biased ones “$1000's on hardware“. Why are you here anyway? A PC hardware site isn't exactly a recreational destination for a console user. Plus I'd love to see consoles provide leaps in hardware performance without the demand for PC hardware driving innovation. New consoles come out what? Every 4-5 years? Who do you think is funding/increasing demand for more powerful hardware during that time hmm?

You want evidence? How about the fact that game support for PPU's is still basicly nothing. Havent seen any games in months that advertise this feature and use it til the fullest. Also, 1 or 2 games here and there dont count. A quad core CPU could dedicate one (for example) 2.6ghz core to nothing but physics in a game and i can tell you right now that single core will be much faster than a PCI PPU.

Hold it there, let me get this straight. I'll forget that you have decided to ignore the increasing games list for the PPU and that 2007 is the launch year for many of them. But you have just bashed the PPU for not having large game support, then gone on to promote hardware with a supported games list of 0?

right... basing this on 'future' support figures are we?

As for the performance yeah, one core is enough for physics, if you are talking last gen. A single core will do you fine for small scale object collision and some particle physics; but for advanced affects like cloth, liquids, and many soft bodies your going to need allot more juice to power it. Instead of just telling you this and expecting you to believe me (like you are doing) check any physics related online video. People aren't running liquids or high sub division cloth on their CPUs in real time, none of the quad core demonstrations (Alan Wake, Futuremark) are showing physics comparable with the PPU or even Havok FX. Go download the Ageia tech demo “Novodex Rocket” and run any of the simulations that use 6000 or more objects, I dare you to go do this. Or will you just say that the benchmarks are being faked on the basis of because you say so? It is just as I said before; the sheer hardware power you need to throw at CPU physics is not worth what you get out of it, especially with the price tag involved.

More evidence? Goto any Fry's and you will see sometimes dozen's of unsold PPU cards that have been sitting there for months on end. My local Fry's had 14 cards on the shelfs for about 5 months (confirmed that with a manager) ... and sold 3 total that time. They then discounted them , still no more sold. So they stopped carring them. Considering its the only PPU hardware they currently sell, discontinuing sales on it is a pretty blunt of sign of PPU's not fairing as well as they should.

The world is allot bigger than your local store you know...

Know how many local retailers carry PPUs in my area? None! Why does that not bother me? Because what type of PC builder goes down to their local computer shop for anything other than cables these days? Retailers rip people off and rely on customers who have no idea what goes inside their computers paying £80 for a Geforce 4 (PC World), hell if we are going to judge a products success by how it does locally then I will add that the xbox 360 is the most unsuccessful console ever! My local 2nd hand shop cannot get rid of the buggers.

Why would PPU's continue to prosper? with multicore systems being common place its only a matter of time before AGIEA either gets bought out or the developers adapt software aimed at multi-core CPU's to function similarly to PPU's.

If you cant see the evidence then either your plunging your head in the sand or you just bought a PPU and are refusing to admit that might not have been a good choice in the long run.

I already said I don't have a PPU remember?

I am still waiting on this unquestionable evidence; but people still can't run PPU dynamically tearable cloth in software mode, the most powerful CPUs are still lagging in convex collisions before the Ageia card and even the demonstrations that are supposed to be promoting quad core are laughable.

In the meantime I ask that you download that physics demo software I mentioned; the Big Bang demo is particularly CPU intensive with 16696 objects, I doubt it supports multi core but seeing how it is just physics and you claim one core is enough it shouldn't be a problem right? I also have a video over at YouTube showing a dual core processor being put up against a Ageia card, I imagine it is pre conroe but it still shows a significant amount of power is required with just 6000 objects.

 

[Godmachine]

Hold it there, let me get this straight. I'll forget that you have decided to ignore the increasing games list for the PPU and that 2007 is the launch year for many of them. But you have just bashed the PPU for not having large game support, then gone on to promote hardware with a supported games list of 0?

Lets see, there is a big list of games which arent out yet and the support for most of them is basic at best. ZERO showcase titles that show the real power of PPU.

As for the performance yeah, one core is enough for physics, if you are talking last gen. A single core will do you fine for small scale object collision and some particle physics; but for advanced affects like cloth, liquids, and many soft bodies your going to need allot more juice to power it. Instead of just telling you this and expecting you to believe me (like you are doing) check any physics related online video. People aren't running liquids or high sub division cloth on their CPUs in real time, none of the quad core demonstrations (Alan Wake, Futuremark) are showing physics comparable with the PPU or even Havok FX. Go download the Ageia tech demo “Novodex Rocket” and run any of the simulations that use 6000 or more objects, I dare you to go do this. Or will you just say that the benchmarks are being faked on the basis of because you say so? It is just as I said before; the sheer hardware power you need to throw at CPU physics is not worth what you get out of it, especially with the price tag involved.

All of these Showcase demo's dont support dual core so basicly you want me to compair a PPU enabled demo to a non-enabled Dual core? how exactly will that prove anything . I already know that PPU's are able to process huge amounts of physics since they are software/hardware driven. If you had properly enabled software made to take advantage of dual cores then you would get very similar results.

The world is allot bigger than your local store you know...

Know how many local retailers carry PPUs in my area? None! Why does that not bother me? Because what type of PC builder goes down to their local computer shop for anything other than cables these days? Retailers rip people off and rely on customers who have no idea what goes inside their computers paying £80 for a Geforce 4 (PC World), hell if we are going to judge a products success by how it does locally then I will add that the xbox 360 is the most unsuccessful console ever! My local 2nd hand shop cannot get rid of the buggers.

Well lets see most major retail stores wont carry it cause it wont sell them cause there isn't a showcase title yet to really show it off and i doubt there will be for sometime to come and 1 game wont make me spend 150+ bucks on a PPU card.

I already said I don't have a PPU remember?

I am still waiting on this unquestionable evidence; but people still can't run PPU dynamically tearable cloth in software mode, the most powerful CPUs are still lagging in convex collisions before the Ageia card and even the demonstrations that are supposed to be promoting quad core are laughable.

In the meantime I ask that you download that physics demo software I mentioned; the Big Bang demo is particularly CPU intensive with 16696 objects, I doubt it supports multi core but seeing how it is just physics and you claim one core is enough it shouldn't be a problem right? I also have a video over at YouTube showing a dual core processor being put up against a Ageia card, I imagine it is pre conroe but it still shows a significant amount of power is required with just 6000 objects.

I'll download and post my thoughts on it but i still dont see the point as i stated above. Also i stated Multi-core'd system's could handle the physics just fine , not a single core system.

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

Lets see, there is a big list of games which arent out yet and the support for most of them is basic at best. ZERO showcase titles that show the real power of PPU.

So now it is a big list of games compared to the 1-2 claimed before? You know there is a confirmed 100 titles by Ageia for the PPU at various stages of development, We know CellFactor and Unreal Tournament are coming out this year but there are still many that have yet to be announced. I think you are being way too hard on the PPU, this is the first of its kind, expecting massive support and utilization of the hardware this quickly is a bit much don't you think? How much support did the GPU get in its first two years of release? Stuff like this needs time, the more people who adopt it the higher the likelihood a dev will take note and support it.

Unless of course people become impatient and use the CPU brute force approach of using a £500 CPU to compare with a £130 PPU, which may I add quad core has yet to demonstrate it can compete with the PPU.

All of these Showcase demo's dont support dual core so basically you want me to compare a PPU enabled demo to a non-enabled Dual core? how exactly will that prove anything . I already know that PPU's are able to process huge amounts of physics since they are software/hardware driven. If you had properly enabled software made to take advantage of dual cores then you would get very similar results.

Hey, your the one that claimed a single core from a quad processor can beat a PPU remember?

“A quad core CPU could dedicate one (for example) 2.6ghz core to nothing but physics in a game and i can tell you right now that single core will be much faster than a PCI PPU.“

Or were you referring to future technology again? Whatever the case that video I posted showed the demo taking advantage of a multi core processor, it may have been a custom version of the software but I'm not sure. There is only one way to find out isn't there? Be sure to monitor CPU usage in the demo. Also note that since Ageia also allow their API to be used for software physics in games I doubt they would shoot themselves in the foot by designing it to do badly on CPUs.

Well lets see most major retail stores wont carry it cause it wont sell them cause there isn't a showcase title yet to really show it off and i doubt there will be for sometime to come and 1 game wont make me spend 150+ bucks on a PPU card.

Ok then lets check the two major rip off retailers in my area.

PC world... oh look they stock the PPU, Dell... yep they have PPUs.

These two pretty much cover the big bad retailers here in the UK. As for your other comment I am the same, I wouldn't spend that much on one game either hence why I don't have a PPU right now, but it isn't just one game coming out for this thing is it? If they need a on store level game to demo the PPU Joint Task Force is a good looking one. You know though there are people willing to spend more than the price of the PPU for one game? You should have seen the number of people who purchased xbox 360s just to run elder scrolls oblivion, and how angry they become when they found out it was also coming to PS3 XD

I'll download and post my thoughts on it but i still dont see the point as i stated above. Also i stated Multi-core'd system's could handle the physics just fine , not a single core system.

Again this is your words.

“A quad core CPU could dedicate one (for example) 2.6ghz core to nothing but physics in a game and i can tell you right now that single core will be much faster than a PCI PPU.“

Seeing how these tech demos don't stress your other components like a game would and don't include game data/AI you can be reassured that what you will get is what your CPU can do when dedicated to physics. You know considering the Alan Wake quad core demonstration dedicated a entire core from a conroe OC to over 3ghz I don't think a 2.6ghz will do that much.

Don't get me wrong, quad core has its merits. Where Alan wake sacrificed a entire core to perform a physics calculation the PPU and Havok FX would just shrug off, it was able to stream in significant amounts of data allowing for massive environments to be crossed without load times. Where the Futremark Ice Storm Fighters demo had laughable physics, it had a large scale battle against many complex AI's. Multi core processors will bring allot of improvements to gaming, but if it keeps giving up many processing cycles to calculate real time physics it will not realize its full potential. Look at all we can achieve in todays games with a single core, just one core. Can you imagine what can be done with two or even four cores? Whatever it is we won't see it if one or even two cores is being wasted on physics.

 

[unterhausen]

I really want these things to succeed, because I think they would be really nice for the kind of engineering that I like to do. Then again, I remember when there were math coprocessors that you could add on to your 486, the Weitek coprocessor. Almost every 486 mobo had a socket for them, they were lots better than the native coprocessor, but nobody ever bought one. They declared bankruptcy in '96 and turned into Connexant or something like that.

I'm guessing that they will disappear, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[imzjustplayin]

I find it funny how the only people defending the PPU at this point are the Zealots who has taken the plunge already for their decorative pieces of hardware

I'm defneding the PPU and I still don't own one.. My worry is that assholes like you won't buy it and the market will collapse.. The problem with a lot of people is that they look at it as another way to be scammed for more money when they should realize, this is the very reason why our games don't have the interactivity and effects it should have. To Launch a rocket at a building and have peices break off can be done only if the result is preplanned or physics is involved, problem is, the latter is very processor intensive so thats why it feels so fake when you 'damage' something because its always going to have the same effect each time.

In battle field 2, for example when you damage a tank, it looks about the same, maybe some burn marks here or there but its basically the same damage. It has to be this way because to calculate when an object strikes another and breaks of little peices (visibly) that requires a lot of processing power. When you throw a grenade at the tracks of the tank, they don't come off, break off or what not.. Any effect you see today is more or less preplanned which makes for a repetitive atmosphere that feels very fake.

And finally crash damage. With a PPU, getting into an accident could potentially result in the frame of the car being twisted , suspension out of whack depending on how you hit it, the car creaking and looking odd because how the frame is so bent. You get into an accident in a modern game and its the same, body damage this, pop this tire, and thats it. It doesn't matter if you slightly scratch the car or run right into a panel, the damage effect is the same EVERYTIME.

Now it doesn't have to be this way, with a physics processor, this could potentially change, and you're more likely to see damage that looks much more like real life where if the crash is bad enough, the car gets squished into the size of a clown car.

My only reason for not buying a PPU is because of people like you who not only think but disturbingly WANT the ageia PPU to fail...

 

[AnnoyedDragon]

[snip]

My only reason for not buying a PPU is because of people like you who not only think but disturbingly WANT the ageia PPU to fail...

This is a disturbing trend I myself have noticed around the Internet, it is like they actually want these affects to require £500 processors or SLI systems that only the minority can access. I am like any other guy, I won't get one till I know it is a good investment; but there is a artificial negative vibe surrounding the PPU, probably created by people who are afraid of having to buy a new component to play their games.

I have seen all sorts of propaganda in areas such as YouTube where users claim that the PPU is a scam and has no affect on performance, people who play CellFactor in software mode claiming to get the same experience as those who have the PPU. We who have done in depth research and information gathering know otherwise; we can bring up factual information that show that the PPU does provide benefits, but with so many people spreading this anti PPU 'mind virus' it is difficult to convince others of its worth.

With the price of the PPU today by the time they are standardized they will be dirt cheap; I have seem them drop by £70 since launch and it can only go lower as adoption increase, that is IF adoption increases. People complain there are no high profile titles that utilize the PPU to justify their purchase, ironic that these titles will only appear when a sufficient install base of the PPU exists.