Phase Change/Water Cooling 4.5 Ghz+

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PredMara

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Hi there,

New member here, but I have been following the forum for several months. After hitting early 30s, I finally have the financial means to have a "top notch" computer if you know what I mean:). I have built several computers in the past, but for the first time I need something that will take me beyond the average overclocking.

I play FSX 99% all the time, unfortunately, no matter how many cores and new features a CPU has, be it i7 or the new i9, FSX requires raw CPU power meaning you will need to have something beyond 4.5 Ghz. I am just so tired of getting 10 fps flying over populated areas.

I have been doing some research and I need your feedback. Let me first explain my current build before I go in any more detail:

CPU : Q6600 G0 Stepping 3.6 Ghz. Cooling : TRUE with pull / push fans operating around 1200 RPM, very quiet. Idle I get 35C, under prime95 load I get 65C. I have set the cpu voltage to 1.53 and the FSB is 401 Mhz.
Motherboard : Abit IP 35-Pro
RAM : Crucial Ballistix 4 x 1 GB 4-4-4-12 800 MHZ
GPU : eVGA 280 GTX
Harddisk : Velociraptor 300 GB
PSU : PC Power and Cooling 750 W
Sound : HTO Striker 7.1
Case : Antec 1200 with all fans (the side one added as well) running at minimum speed.

My Q6600 has been running at 50% overclock for more than 2.5 years now. I haven't increased any of my fan speeds a bit, I can fly in FSX for hours never exceeding CPU temp 60C at 100% load. With prime95 of course it reaches to 65C.

Anyways, this build is all good, but it's not enough. Plus I haven't really done anything for 2.5 years with my computer, and now I'd like to get something that will be the best of the best. Money for me is not an issue (of course I can't pay $10,000 for a PC, I am just talking about something reasonable for an above average overclocker) since I am old enough to afford something decent and guess what I have been saving for some time:)

Questions:

I see that with core i7, TRUE and water cooling has very very minor difference. On top of that, I see that with TRUE people are able to hit 4.2 Ghz on air whereas some water coolers can't even get that (obviously people who don't know what they are doing but still). The point being, the era of water cooling, for me, is fading away, leaving this option to only people who want to do this for fun and its nice looks.

For my case, in order to hit somewhere around 4.5 Ghz - 4.8 Ghz with i7 920 do I have any option but phase change? I really don't want to have liquid stuff in my case knowing I'll have to change the coolant once in a while and every time I want to move my case I need to drain the whole thing. On top of that it has so many parts, the radiator, pump, the tubes, the blocks, yada yada yada, it's too much work.

As far as the phase change is concerned, I am totally lost.

1) Thermaltake came with a new case XPRESSAR (http://www.xpressar.com/) that is, if you ask me, pretty reasonable. $700 for phase change cooling plus a new case. What do you guys think? Will it be enough for me? Disadvantages: I have to get rid of my current case, it's a new product that's not been there long enough, it may be loud. Advantages: phase change cooling with warranty (that's pretty important if you ask me), no need to worry about cutting wholes here and there, it's been tested and verified to work. Even the worst of the worst phase change will be 10x better than the best water cooling, plus it will be clean and it will be less headache.

2) If not that case, I can see 2 options:

a) Cooler Express 2009 http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6233/ex-vap-15/Cooler_Express_2009_Super_Single_Evaporator_CPU_Cooling_Unit_-_All_Sockets_478_754_775_1366_939_940_AM2_Xeon.html?tl=g49c275

b) OCZ Cryo-Z http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g49/c415/s1047/list/p1/Phase_Change-OCZ_Phase_Change-OCZ_Cryo-Z-Page1.html

The problem is, all these 3 solutions have met with negative feedback. Now, if you ask me, do the people who make comments about these products actually know what they are talking about or are they simply irritated that some people spend that much money on computer parts and can't accept the fact that they are not the best? It's possible. Every forum I visited that talked about the thermaltake case had comments such as "it sucks" "thermaltake sucks" "I'd rather put a fridge in my case" whereas the reviews I saw show it cooling a i7 to 4.2 ghz somewhere around 12C under load.

As for the other external ones, the problem with those is I don't know how I am going to cut a whole in my antec 1200 (or maybe buy a new case? but still same problem). It will just become this geek-nasty-college computer that I don't want. My current build, with 8 fans on it, that is overclocked 50% is so clean and quiet that If I turned of my blue leds, you wouldn't know the fans are running. The velociraptor's disk seeking clicks from that small 2.5 magnetic plac is louder than all my fans combined:)

So that's all. I have been reading and reading and reading for 3 weeks now and I am completely lost. I will make the same post in a few other OC forums to get everyone's feedback. I am willing to go all the way, budget is somewhere around $3,000-$4,000, but if I get the expressar case, it will cost me, with everything, probably under $1,500.

I have some other questions regarding my current parts and if I should replace them (PSU for instance, how much can the 750W take?), but I'll either make a separate post for that or discuss details after I come to an agreement about the main cooling option.

Thanks for reading.

PredMara.
 
Often times, the limitations of your overclock go beyond heat related stressors and are bound by the limitations of the CPU/MB/RAM etc. I think your money would be better spent purchasing a pre-tested CPU that is guranteed at 4.5+ ghz.

For example, I can run my 920 at 4.5Ghz (albeit, not lynx stable) using a $60 Corsair H50 and the value series Asus P6T SE. Simply put, I lucked out. I'm sure if you shop around and make some inquries on the forums, you will be able to find somebody willing to sell you a "golden" chip.

Furthermore, there are extreme diminishing returns to phase change cooling and the extra 300mhz or so you can achieve while overclocking. Will it really make FSX more playable? Is the difference between 4.2 and 4.5ghz worth the exhorbitant cost?

Something to consider.
 
PredMara said:
I see that with core i7, TRUE and water cooling has very very minor difference. On top of that, I see that with TRUE people are able to hit 4.2 Ghz on air whereas some water coolers can't even get that (obviously people who don't know what they are doing but still). The point being, the era of water cooling, for me, is fading away, leaving this option to only people who want to do this for fun and its nice looks.

For my case, in order to hit somewhere around 4.5 Ghz - 4.8 Ghz with i7 920 do I have any option but phase change? I really don't want to have liquid stuff in my case knowing I'll have to change the coolant once in a while and every time I want to move my case I need to drain the whole thing. On top of that it has so many parts, the radiator, pump, the tubes, the blocks, yada yada yada, it's too much work.
Click to expand...

First off, water cooling is not a dying era. You can't possibly say that when not very many people use phase cooling.
No you don't need to drain your case everytime you move it. Just make sure the tubes have compression fittings or hose clamps.
I get 52-55C load at 4ghz with HT, no air cooler out there can do that. Can't compare the True to Water cooling.
Too much work, yet you want 4.5ghz 4.8ghz, really?
And I don't think saying people don't know what they are doing, when you are the one asking the questions, is very fair/nice but moving on...

NO overclock is guaranteed. Motherboard, CPU, Ram, voltages, nb/sb temps/voltaegs etc all play a role. A 1.5v on an i7 920 is ridiculous.Heating isn't necessarily is what holding a oc back.

Mine will go to 4.2ghz with 1.35v. I don't have it at 4.2ghz because 200mhz is hardly noticeable. Your 4.5ghz - 4.8ghz might perform the same as 4.2 - 4.4ghz, because you won't notice the difference.

If you really wanted to try to increase your performance,

Water Cooling, for video cards, and cpu
Get an i7 920, with a decent oc, 3.8 - 4.2ghz
SSD
A 295 or a 5970, oc them.

GL
 
As others have said, +4.5Ghz is going to come down to high-end parts and luck. Moreso if you want to do this on air. I've only seen a couple 920s do +4.5 on air. Secondly, check out [H]'s review of the Xpressar. Since you're going for a huge OC, you don't want to get it. It's good a being cool and quiet at stock and low level OCs, but for +4.5, it's gonna suck balls.

+4.5Ghz is very possible with the right parts and WC, but you said you don't wanna go there. Moreover, you've mentioned phase-change, but I don't think you realize what's involved with those setups. You say you don't want water in your system, but you want to deal with the condensation with phase-change? IMO, I would suggest you re-evaluate your projections. You want a monster OC with minimal hassle, and the only thing that can give you that is lady luck. Even the top computer boutiques use some sort of water on their OC'ed systems, and they're barely pushing 4Ghz.

EDIT: Looking online, there's only 1 Cooler Express 2009 build that I've read and the guy got his 920 to 5.8Ghz stable. Take it with a grain of salt and a wad of cash. The sucker runs at 900 bucks and the 1366 mounting package is another 150. Here's the link.
 
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Alright, you guys made your point about WC. Let's "assume" I want to go that direction, with "high-end quality parts" for 4.5 Ghz (let's actually say 4.7 Ghz). What needs to be done? Can you explain the high end parts? Without being rude, I can say money won't be a problem, I will get the best of the best for the WC system. I may initially not cool the GPU though because I don't want to loose the warranty on the GTX 280 and the water cooled one is ridiculously 750$.

Another problem with the water cooling for me is, for my case, antec 1200, there is not much room, in addition, for nice water cooling systems, I see that people have 1 or even 2 radiators hanging behind their cases that have 3 fans attached to them (each). That's not ideal for me as having a compact, clean, quiet system is very important. I am a married man soon to have kids, it's no more a college dorm room, so I can't have a case that has tubes coming out and fans running outside:) Of course disregard what I am saying as I have never done water cooling, I am sure not every system is like that.

I am not throwing the phase change idea out of the window. the 900 bucks for cooler master is something I am willing to pay. Like I said, I have been waiting for this day for 10-15 years, saving for the last 2.5. Plus these things are not the kind of things you'd buy every year, that phase changer will last for at least 5-6 years, at least 3 other builds to me. Given that someone can show me a nice system including a phase changer and show me the right direction with a clean system, I will go down that road as well.

Thank you very much for everyone's time, I appreciate your input. I am willing to listen, read, and learn everything I need to.

Edit: I have read the xpressar review here from hardocp and this particular page grabbed my interest http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2009/04/13/xpressar_refrigeration_system_xaser_chassis/4. Here it is said that pretty much this case is a few degrees better than TRUE heatstink on a 3.8 Ghz old quad core cpu which is pretty horrible. Where as here http://www.xoxide.com/thermaltake-xpressar-microfridge-case.html and pretty much everywhere in the thermaltake website it is promised (and I'd absolutely expect from the worst phase change cooling system something similar) 20 degrees C less than the average water cooling system. The two pieces of the puzzle really don't make sense to me. Either there is something wrong with the review here or thermaltake is lying big time. There aren't many benchmarks of this case out there but I just don't understand how it could be possible.

Also, looking over the benchmark charts, I see that TRUE cupper and custom water cooling have 2 degrees C difference in between them and the idle temperatures are even stranger with TRUE being colder? This was what I was talking about about air and water cooling. Anyways, maybe not related to the original topic, but just wanted to mention it that's all.

PredMara.
 
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The reason TT and Xoxide and other sites say that the Xpressar is about 20 degrees C colder than WC is because at stock clocks, the Xpressar at 100% load is that much colder. Just looking at the [H] review, idle for the Xpressar on stock clocks was -1.0*C while the same on WC was 27.9*C. That's almost a 30*C delta, which is HUGE. But the catch is the Xpressar can only handle about 130W (my guess). After that, it can't combat the heat fast enough, and thus WC starts to win out. Plus, if you run your phase-change at 100% 24/7 you can bet it'll burn out real quick. You never want to push your cooling to the edge.

As far as WC goes with your 1200, are you willing to mod the case? If you are, I can already see a 5x120 setup, with a 2x120 in the rear and a 3x120 in the front. You could go mod-crazy and make an internal "radbox" with dual, stacked 3x120s in the drive bay area and whatnot. That's all up to you. Personally, and I take it you're the same way, I like completely clean and internal WC setups. So no, 3x120s hanging off a single 120mm fan opening, no 3000rpm fans without fan guards outside, etc, etc.

As far as WC video cards, I know that EVGA doesn't care if you WC/OC their cards. Just throw on the stock cooler and bring them back to stock settings with your RMA.

Finally, as far as parts go, and I'm sure EVERYONE and their mothers have an opinion on this, for top quality parts, you'll be spending top dollar. You mentioned that you wanted a quiet system, so while WC aids in this, super-duper high end WC can actually get loud. Hardware Labs GTX (30 fins per inch) rads with 3000 rpm fans actually remove the most heat, but are pretty darn loud. There are much more expert people here than me, but for the sake of knowledge, I'll just throw out what I think. You'll be looking at around $250 in rads for a XSPC (a 2x120 and a 3x120). Throw in another $100 for pump and fans, and another $50 for tubing and reservoir. Then finally around $80 for the CPU block and between $120 and $150 for each GPU. In the end, you're easilly looking at $800 bucks in WC alone, with 2 video cards.

Finally, with WC, you're only as good as your ambient temps. Make sure you can keep your ambient temps low, since you're still cooling the water via air. The colder ambient temps are, the colder your water will be.

Hope that answers at least some of your questions. Other WC experts need to chime in though, since I only know just so much.
 
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Surely a good Quad Rad with 1600rpm or 1900rpm slipstreams slapped on it could cool 4.2ghz+ with 1.35v + easily? I don't know im a water noob.
Plus don't foget a i7 chip is pretty comfortable in the 80's c just got to be careful past 90c. Obviously for stability though may need cooler.
 
As others have pointed out overclocking involves a lot of luck. My chip won't do above about 3.8 GHz stable and to go from 3.6 to 3.8 requires a ton of voltage. I have a pretty simple dual radiator loop that cools my CPU and one of my graphics cards and temps have never been a problem.

If you are new to watercooling I suggest you read everything you can. And take all the charts you see with a grain of salt because in general when it comes down to components the difference in performance is usually a couple of degrees between quality components. People stretch their charts to make the differences huge, but if you look at the actual numbers there really isn't a difference that will effect performance.

You can spend anywhere from about $300 for a good cpu only watercooling setup with the ceiling being double or triple that. You probably will get 95% of the performance with a $300 setup versus a system costing double that.

For your situation and budget I think wc is the way to go and would look at getting a new case that can house a triple radiator or larger.
 
You told us everything but the video resolution you play at. The reason you are getting 10FPS over a city is the level of detail in the terrain you are flying over and the resolution you are viewing it in. Since (like me but different game) you play mainly one game, the ideal soultion is to target the new machine to perform in the areas that are optimized for that game. My advice is to read all you can find on the Flight Simulator engine starting with which version of DirectX (I am assuming here) it is written in and what SSE instructions it will make use of. My point is that a new machine is allways nice, an i7 with its improved SSE4 instructions should help if the game takes advantage of it, but I wonder if you should be looking at an SLI or Xfire setup due to the graphics rendering being a the bottleneck. It just depends on how many pixels you are trying to push and based on how the game works what is the best way (cpu vs gpu vs cpu and gpu) to push them fast.

So dont forget to look at your video needs as well.

I agree that phase change for a couple of 100MHz is not going to get you where you want to go. Approach it from a system wide design with the focus on what will help the most to run that specific game. For example more memory may not help nearly as much as a second gpu, etc. etc. I7 is going to help a lot regardless so that is kind of a no-brainer but the X58 chipset is the X58 chipset and so an expensive board loaded with features you do not use when a solid high performance board with less features would open up more money for a second video card, assuming FSX can make good use of SLI/X-fire, I have no clue, might be the better way to go.
 
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Guys, I really appreciate everybody's responses. I have just come home and here are my answers:

1) I have done some research today on water cooling and seems like it's not so bad to house a radiator outside of the case since most of the high quality kits seem to offer different (of course after paying extra) solutions. I have no problem attaching a radiator on antec 1200's side with screws. On the other hand I may just sell my computer as it is and start with a new one. The only problem is, I am so much in love with my current case and it's quietness, I don't know how I will do that. But anyways, we'll cross that bridge later.

2) As far as the FSX goes, I see that people here are not familiar with it so let me explain. With FSX the bottleneck is CPU. I have spent the past 3 years simming at the very advance level, read every single article and benchmark there was, and did so much tweaking myself that I'd probably make more money by selling an FSX tweak book:). With FSX, SLI is a suicide. It kills the performance big time. FSX is just not optimized for ANY type of SLI. It is also the case that the best performing card for FSX is 8800 Ultra. The new GTXs are pretty bad, with the dual cards i.e. 295 working slower than a 8800 GTS. Don't ask me why, that's the way it is. In addition, the memory bandwidth and the speed are very important. Lastly, the hard drive is also an important deciding factor.

So my plan is to get as high GHZ as possible with CPU, as high MHZ and as low timing as possible with memory (we are not there yet, but I am prepared to pay good money for good quality ram), and get the fastest SSD on the market (possibly Intel's X-25). I'll keep an SSD for FSX and a velociraptor for my O/S and a NAS for backup.

As most of you guys are probably GPU people, the overall FSX overclocking may be a bit different. I have a 280 GTX which I got from EVGA in return to my old 8800 GTX which were giving artifacts and I am happy with it. I may not go water on my GPU at all until I hit very good temperatures.

3) Now, another thing I realize with WC is that people who don't get so great temperatures are the people who have at least 1 or sometimes even 2 video cards in their loop. I guess that explains it lol. I was reading the sub forums today and I see these people posting 55-60C load temperatures with a 3.8 Ghz i7 but 2 GTX 280s in the loop and I told myself, that's going to hurt the overclock big time. I am not planning to do that, even if I do, I can even underclock my GTX 280 or maybe sell it and get a 8800 GTS. Other games that I play such as COD4/CODMW2/BF2/CSS are all decent levels with anything above 8800.

4) One last thing. I see people saying the 100 Mhz here and there is not worth it, etc. Well, like what I said above, FSX is a different game. You will see hardcore simmers buying 3 SSDs just so that they can get 2-3 fps here and there and they load faster. A 100 Mhz in my DDR3 ram will make a good difference because a good difference in FSX is 2-3 fps. Those a few frames that you gain make a HUGE deal. Anything above 25 fps in that game will satisfy any person flying over a crowded area. So while I agree with you all for general gaming purposes, I disagree when it comes to FSX. So, when you are giving advice, simply take money out of the equation (of course don't suggest a $10,000 super computer). I am willing to pay $300-400 extra for a quieter/cleaner/better system.

I have also read a lot about phase cooling again today and from the screenshots people posted all over the forums, I don't want to have rusty copper tubes anywhere or compressors that probably my wife wouldn't want in our fridge. I don't think it's my thing and I believe with good research and advice, I can get a good water cooling system.

Now, lets see, what is the TRUE for water cooling? What is the best of the best? Also, what case can you recommend? In fact, any other suggestions that you guys may have about the motherboard, RAM, hard drive, even GPU (if adding graphics card into the loop won't create such a big headache), please share them here.

Thanks for reading all this.

Regards,

PredMara.
 
I am putting you in the WCing forum. Your hardware requirements are fairly straight forward the WCing aspect is the tricky bit. This is OCing and cooling, the GPU gurus are in the video card section although most of here are system wide OCers.
 
I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions, but based on the data I've seen here are the best watercooling components for a simple CPU only loop (not factoring in price at all).

CPU Block: Heatkiller 3.0
Radiator: Feser TFC XChanger Monsta Extreme
Pump: Swiftech MCP655
Reservoir: Get whatever you want that will fit in your case
Tubing: Tygon Laboratory Grade Tubing

With that you are probably looking at around $500 once you throw on fittings and fans for the rad.

This isn't what I would recommend as you can probably get 95% of the performance for $300, but you asked for the best watercooling components out there.
 
weuntouchable said:
I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions, but based on the data I've seen here are the best watercooling components for a simple CPU only loop (not factoring in price at all).

CPU Block: Heatkiller 3.0
Radiator: Feser TFC XChanger Monsta Extreme
Pump: Swiftech MCP655
Reservoir: Get whatever you want that will fit in your case
Tubing: Tygon Laboratory Grade Tubing

With that you are probably looking at around $500 once you throw on fittings and fans for the rad.

This isn't what I would recommend as you can probably get 95% of the performance for $300, but you asked for the best watercooling components out there.
Click to expand...

The Swiftech Apogee XT is better than the HK 3.0. And a 3x140 HW GTS with 3k rpm fans will beat anything out there.
 
crazjayz said:
The Swiftech Apogee XT is better than the HK 3.0. And a 3x140 HW GTS with 3k rpm fans will beat anything out there.
Click to expand...

where is the data that shows the XT wins over the HK 3.0? i mean real data not the one that gabe posts in his website.
 
It's kind of a niche product, but if you don't want to part with your beloved case just yet, you could get a ThermalTake BigWater kit.

The 760is and 780e both mount in standard 5.25" drive bays, and although they are large, case modding may not be necessary to mount them. The 760 occupies 2 bays, and the 780 occupies 3. Both units only have 1 120mm radiator, but for the size it does a decent job, provided there is a blow hole.

They don't come with an i7 compatible waterblock though. You would have to get another waterblock to hook up to the loop, such as one of the models previously mentioned.
 
You are still claiming there is a noticeable difference in performance on the CU vs LT... its just not there. Vapor has already tested it, just hasn't updated his comparison yet.

Are there any other tests of the CU vs. LT, especially ones showing anything more than .2-.4C in dT?
 
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