PCI-E x16 vs AGP

[PhishingJimi]

I'm currently running an AGP motherboard and thinking of upgrading to an AGP slot 6800 gt. Would it be worth it to get a new mobo just to switch to PCI-express x16? what are the overall comparisons between the two slot types?

 

[Brent_Justice]

right now no performance benefit in games

in the future, maybe so

 

[Hate_Bot]

Right now, only a small bit of benifit

In the near future, twice as much

So yes, get it, it's more futureproof

 

[doublejbass]

Right now, only a small bit of benifit

In the near future, twice as much

So yes, get it, it's more futureproof

Right now, full of shit

In the near future, still full of shit

We don't even use AGP 8X fully now, and card makers aren't going to abandon AGP with a lot of the population not having upgraded yet. May want to look into the PSU issue too.

 

[Jasonx82]

But, isnt LGA775, (intel) and Nforce 4, (AMD) PCI Express Only (as I know of I could be wrong I dont know much about LGA775 just know that its PCI Express)? And Ati is working on there own version of SLI which will need Pciexpress unless they bring out Dual AGP ?

Anyways Go PCI Express, Why?
1. You can carry your Videocard on to your next setup. (most likly)
2. SLI Ability well on nvidia side
3. More Bandwidth when the time comes ( who knows when that is. But at least you have the option)

Right now, full of shit

In the near future, still full of shit

We don't even use AGP 8X fully now, and card makers aren't going to abandon AGP with a lot of the population not having upgraded yet. May want to look into the PSU issue too.

 

[TSS Modder]

But, isnt LGA775, (intel) and Nforce 4, (AMD) PCI Express Only (as I know of I could be wrong I dont know much about LGA775 just know that its PCI Express)? And Ati is working on there own version of SLI which will need Pciexpress unless they bring out Dual AGP ?

last i heard nVidia was developin a NF4 chipset for Intel, or at least SLI capabililty (i guess that would have to include NF4).

 

[Jasonx82]

Yeah I know SLi for Intel.. I was just trying to say there all headed towards PCI Express..

last i heard nVidia was developin a NF4 chipset for Intel, or at least SLI capabililty (i guess that would have to include NF4).

 

[Hate_Bot]

Right now, full of shit

In the near future, still full of shit

We don't even use AGP 8X fully now, and card makers aren't going to abandon AGP with a lot of the population not having upgraded yet. May want to look into the PSU issue too.

Your full of shit

Look get a card that supports both AGP 8x and 4x, then use it one a 4x mobo, and mark the performance, then use an 8x mobo, youll see a big diffrence.

The next batch of cards will probably use it alot more then currently

 

[Lazn_Work]

Your full of shit

Look get a card that supports both AGP 8x and 4x, then use it one a 4x mobo, and mark the performance, then use an 8x mobo, youll see a big diffrence.

The next batch of cards will probably use it alot more then currently

LOL. http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=604&cid=3&pg=6

"As seen from our tests on previous parts, the SiS Xabre 400 had up to 4% increase in performance using the AGP 8x interface over AGP 4x. This is larger than the 1% difference we obtained with graphics cards such as the NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4200-8x and the RADEON 9700 Pro."

==>Lazn

 

[Dr. X]

LOL. http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=604&cid=3&pg=6

"As seen from our tests on previous parts, the SiS Xabre 400 had up to 4% increase in performance using the AGP 8x interface over AGP 4x. This is larger than the 1% difference we obtained with graphics cards such as the NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4200-8x and the RADEON 9700 Pro."

==>Lazn

You realize that article is over two years old, right? Not saying that you're wrong, but something a little more recent might back up your claim better.

 

[kirbyrj]

Who cares about bandwidth since it's not really an issue right now ?

The real issue is going to be what ATI/Nvidia do with their new cards. From the look of it, new cards are going to probably be PCI-E first and then maybe we'll see AGP versions. Case in point...x800xl. I don't think it really matters to them for the most part that most people have AGP still. Since when has big business cared about the little people ? And lets face it. AGP is essentially old chipset technology. It goes out with the 865/875/Nforce3. PCI-E like it or not is the future.

Now off my soapbox and back to the question . If you like your current setup and feel that a 6800GT is worth the investment, go for it. If you're running an Athlon XP or something like that, it might be worth it to look at PCI-E. If you're running a A64 on a Neo2, get an AGP card.

 

[legcramp]

agp4x vs pco express 16x......virtually no performance gain and if there was a performance gain for now...it's either a margin of error or the motherboard's chipset is different IMO

 

[Dan_D]

The only reason to go PCI-E right now is SLi. That's about it. Unless you've got an older machine and your wanting to upgrade.

With Intel there is a more compelling reason, the faster chips are all LGA775 and while you can get i865PE/i875P boards with an LGA775 socket, your choices are more limited. But DDR 2 pricing is high so that affects the buying decisions of some.

With AMD the switch is cheaper as 939 CPU's can be carried over and so can your memory. So if you are going for a high end video card you might want to go ahead and get a motherboard too, that way you have a more future proof upgrade path. Or if your a huge performance nut, go SLi.

So if your upgrading an older system, its a touger call and should be taken on a case by case basis. If your getting a new system theres no reason not to go PCI-E.

 

[Hate_Bot]

You do realise that link you posted is very old?

Sure, RIGHT NOW, there is no gain. But in a year or 2, the gain will be alot larger. Not to mention that more high-end cards are being made for the PCI-E interface. AGP is going to be phased out in 1-2, maybe 3 years.

 

[Dallows]

there is no difference between 4x and 8x, that's all I'm gonna say. Maybe in some synthetic benchmark, but those aren't good for shit anyway.

 

[legcramp]

You do realise that link you posted is very old?

Sure, RIGHT NOW, there is no gain. But in a year or 2, the gain will be alot larger. Not to mention that more high-end cards are being made for the PCI-E interface. AGP is going to be phased out in 1-2, maybe 3 years.

I agree, but for now..a person going agp or pci-e wont be missing anything..if ur building a brand new system..pci-e.... if just upgrading...agp if fine

 

[Hate_Bot]

there is no difference between 4x and 8x, that's all I'm gonna say. Maybe in some synthetic benchmark, but those aren't good for shit anyway.

Thank you for spouting BS

there is a large diffrence. I know for a fact. WHen I was helping my friend buy a new irg, he had a reasonably OK card (9600XT) and it playd HL2 ok (20-30FPS on medium high settings) he got a 8x mobo (He had been using an 4x one) and his FPS jumped to 50-60 on the same settings

 

[Major_A]

Man your rhetoric just spews from all ends doesn't it? The only reason you see benchmarks that show better performance NOW is because most PCIe cards have higher clocks, either core or memory than the AGP cards.

 

[Dallows]

Thank you for spouting BS

there is a large diffrence. I know for a fact. WHen I was helping my friend buy a new irg, he had a reasonably OK card (9600XT) and it playd HL2 ok (20-30FPS on medium high settings) he got a 8x mobo (He had been using an 4x one) and his FPS jumped to 50-60 on the same settings

I wish I had my 6800GT right now to prove you wrong, but I don't. All I have is this 9800pro that thinks it's funny to reboot everytime I try to run it in 8x agp w/ vpu recovery enabled. But I'll even try to enable 8x again just for you

edit: well, it wouldn't run in 8x, which is a shame, because you're wrong.

 

[Cyberlunacy]

hate_bot

ill have to say you have absolutely zero knowledge about what your talking about.
If "your friend" had a 4x agp board it was VERY old. ok not VERY but it was bloody old enough.

Take your happy little self into your display properties and int your motherboard bios and change the settings to 4x AGP then run benchmarks.. then switch to 8x and run benchies, or visa versa.

you will see. once and for all, that you really have no clue wtf your talking about. There is such a minute performance increase from 4x to 8x that if you called it an increase your lame.
Your the type of person who claims a 100 point increase in 3dmark is GOOD. I can fart and get a gain of 250 points in 3dmark.

The benefits of moving to PCI Express are minimal at best, they DO NOT!! warrent shelling out the emormous amounts of money for a new motherboard and Video card. and PSU (sometimes a psu)
The benefits are there, if your THAT anal and you want a few more 3dmarks and a few more FPS in a game,, hell go for it... but the big picture is that there is no real world gain from PCI Express.

SLI -

Sure go for it,, buy your $200 motherboard, buy your $200+ PSU spend 600+ on 2 video cards...(2x 6600 GT's are almost or over 300 a piece). sure go for it. The performance is definately there. But what is there to gain ? nothing unless you were running something like a 9700 pro or less. Then deal with all the issues that the NForce 4 motherboards have. cuz ever NForce 4 board available has issues, and not silly little ones, but big ones.

Overall,,,, pci-express,, a move into the future,, sure i suppose,,, but pci express isnt going to offer anything more than the SLI option for performance. Its NOT a new interface. The brains and cuts of PCI Express has been used for years and years, its the same bus type that has been used in your northbridge chips. Its how they got the huge amount of bandwidth. Video cards are a long ways off from ever utilizing the bus capabilities of 16x PCI Express. And it's a KNOWN FACT that we don't even use the full bus bandwidth of 8x AGP so how are we going to utilize 16 PCI Xpress. ??

It's all about how much money you have and if you need it. and want it. If you do,,,, go for it, no one is here to stop you, but think about the change, think about 6 month's from now when more video cards and motherboards and revisions of nforce 4 or via chipset or sis come out.
It's a never ending battle keeping up with hardware but moving to pci-express is one that industry wise people are pushing, and yet there is nor performance rating that is worth making that move for other than SLI, which again is all about the money and how much you got.

 

[Dallows]

I quote this from another forum dated Jan 2005

"Nope, there's little difference. AGP 4X has a maximum bandwidth of 1066 MB/s while 8X has a maximum bandwidth of 2133 MB/s. However, with a 9800 Pro you have 21760 MB/s of bandwidth on the card itself, as well as 128 MB of RAM. Games always run best when the majority of textures are all stored in video RAM, as even the fastest external interface is relatively slow. Some motherboards - particularly with VIA or SiS chipsets - have problems running AGP 8X, so dropping down to 4X can improve stability at the cost of *maybe* 2 or 3% performance."

 

[delusion_2005]

Yeah y not go for an PCI-E 16x, because in the future AGP card is gonna be out dated and it will cost heaps more then the PCI-E cards, for example the old PCI card, it cost $160 AU for a MX 440 while the AGP one just cost around $70 AU.

 

[delusion_2005]

Yeah why not go for an PCI-E 16x, because in the future AGP card is gonna be out dated and it will cost heaps more then the PCI-E cards, for example the old PCI card, it cost $160 AU for a MX 440 while the AGP one just cost around $70 AU.

 

[robberbaron]

I quote this from another forum dated Jan 2005

"Nope, there's little difference. AGP 4X has a maximum bandwidth of 1066 MB/s while 8X has a maximum bandwidth of 2133 MB/s. However, with a 9800 Pro you have 21760 MB/s of bandwidth on the card itself, as well as 128 MB of RAM. Games always run best when the majority of textures are all stored in video RAM, as even the fastest external interface is relatively slow. Some motherboards - particularly with VIA or SiS chipsets - have problems running AGP 8X, so dropping down to 4X can improve stability at the cost of *maybe* 2 or 3% performance."

Err, isnt that 21760MB/s the bandwidth from the memory to the GPU? If so, then it's unrelated to the frequency of the slot.


Sure, theres a small benefit from 4x to 8x, but that doesnt mean 8x is being saturated. You might get the same speed through "AGP 6x" or "7x" if they could exist.

 

[lithium726]

Thank you for spouting BS

there is a large diffrence. I know for a fact. WHen I was helping my friend buy a new irg, he had a reasonably OK card (9600XT) and it playd HL2 ok (20-30FPS on medium high settings) he got a 8x mobo (He had been using an 4x one) and his FPS jumped to 50-60 on the same settings

you are so very, very wrong. it was the chipset. the motherboard is newer, and has newer tech, but the bandwith given by the 8x slot is not being used. i garantee you if i could enable agp 8x on my a7v133 (via kt133 chipset, sdram) it wouldnt make a good damn of difference for performance, but when i put the same processor (a thunderbird 950) in my nf2 board, the frames go up astronomically

doom3 is barely saturating the 4x bus at the current time. what makes you think that osmething like unreal 3 will saturate the pcie 16x bus in two years? at best, we'll be at 8x finally.

 

[robberbaron]

you are so very, very wrong. it was the chipset. the motherboard is newer, and has newer tech, but the bandwith given by the 8x slot is not being used. i garantee you if i could enable agp 8x on my a7v133 (via kt133 chipset, sdram) it wouldnt make a good damn of difference for performance, but when i put the same processor (a thunderbird 950) in my nf2 board, the frames go up astronomically

doom3 is barely saturating the 4x bus at the current time. what makes you think that osmething like unreal 3 will saturate the pcie 16x bus in two years? at best, we'll be at 8x finally.

I would guess more like between 4x and 8x. Way less than 8x though.

 

[lithium726]

thats why i said at best


some people dont understand that the move to PCIe was not to give graphics cards more bandwidth, it was to finally retire the ancient PCI bus, which was becoming a super bottleneck in modern day systems with things like HDTV decoders and gigabit lans. tahts why the industry is moving to PCIe, and graphics cards just got caught up in the whole thing with SLI and all that jazz. agp 8x is overkill just like ATA100 is (yes, ATA100 is overkill. drives dont even come close to maxing out the ATA66 bus... not to mention sata300, jeez.)

 

[Stellar]

I swear, most people can't think 5 minutes in front of their face.

Yes, PCI Express is several times over faster than AGP, as a bus architecture. It's the cards that are not yet faster, but they will be, and any developments for high end cards in the future are going to be for the PCI Express bus. That should be enough reason for anyone.

In any case, speed is not the only reason that PCI Express is a far superior architecture. In the first place, you can pull up to 75 watts through the PCI Express slot, meaning some relatively quick cards such as the current 6600GT and x800 XL do not require an auxiliary power connection.

Read up people!
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/tips0456.html?Open

 

[lithium726]

read above, i discussed that (i realize you posted right after me and probably didnt see it.. im just saying that i do understand that)

i understand that pcie is the way to go for the future, but if he already has parts he wishes to use then there is no reason for him to go PCIe. if he is doing a complete system revamp, then perhaps.. but honestly people, how many of you upgrade your processor wthout your mobo? if you do, you shouldnt, as new chipsets will always make you more happy with your upgrade...

 

[robberbaron]

read above, i discussed that (i realize you posted right after me and probably didnt see it.. im just saying that i do understand that)

i understand that pcie is the way to go for the future, but if he already has parts he wishes to use then there is no reason for him to go PCIe. if he is doing a complete system revamp, then perhaps.. but honestly people, how many of you upgrade your processor wthout your mobo? if you do, you shouldnt, as new chipsets will always make you more happy with your upgrade...

Well, I did. Kind of. I went from a 2800+ to a 3700+. But then I got fed up with Soltek finally and got a new motherboard, but "same" nForce3 250gb chipset with good ole AGP.

 

[defiant]

hate_bot

ill have to say you have absolutely zero knowledge about what your talking about.
If "your friend" had a 4x agp board it was VERY old. ok not VERY but it was bloody old enough.

Take your happy little self into your display properties and int your motherboard bios and change the settings to 4x AGP then run benchmarks.. then switch to 8x and run benchies, or visa versa.

you will see. once and for all, that you really have no clue wtf your talking about. There is such a minute performance increase from 4x to 8x that if you called it an increase your lame.
Your the type of person who claims a 100 point increase in 3dmark is GOOD. I can fart and get a gain of 250 points in 3dmark.

The benefits of moving to PCI Express are minimal at best, they DO NOT!! warrent shelling out the emormous amounts of money for a new motherboard and Video card. and PSU (sometimes a psu)
The benefits are there, if your THAT anal and you want a few more 3dmarks and a few more FPS in a game,, hell go for it... but the big picture is that there is no real world gain from PCI Express.

100% correct.....hate-bot has no clue

 

[Stellar]

100% correct.....hate-bot has no clue

While I agree with the beginning of his posts, a person does not have to shell out "enormous amounts of money" to build a system around PCI Express. The PCI express version of current video cards are cheaper than the AGP versions, and the motherboards are no more expensive than their AGP counterparts unless you buy an SLI board.

 

[banned_user]

It makes the most sence to go with PCI-E if you are going with an ATI card because they are generally cheaper than AGP. For Nvidia cards its a split with the 6600 GTs being cheaper PCI-E and the 6800's being cheaper in AGP.

 

[Sc4freak]

If you already have a good AGP system, there is absolutely no reason to switch to PCIe.

If you are building a new system, then you would be stupid not to go PCIe.

 

[Thor]

heres the thing, the link he posted to is at least a year old, mostlikely 2 (i didnt bother to click it, i know which link it is, and remeber when this was being discussed even back then), the "in a year or 2" arguement is still kinda blown to crap because of the fact that "in a year or 2" 2 years ago we said the same thing and still havent relised the full benifit of agp 8x, from what im seing we'er looking at at least anoughter 2 years befor we see 8x speeds, and at this rate 6 years befor we see 12x speeds, unless they have some fundamantal break throught in bandwidth allocation for vid cards.

now, i could see the vid cards in sli utliseing the full power of 8x per slot while trying to comunicate to each other as the processor (northbridge ram controller... what ever) is trying to talk to them as well, them you might just use enough bandwith to break 8x... but just barely

as it is i can lock my board into 4x mode in the bios and see no difference between it and 8x mode, and while this isnt the latest gen. vid. card, it is far enought along that if agp8x was going to make any difference, it would on this card.

so in short, like every one else has said, there is no reason to chuck your board just to get pci-e, get a better vid card and be happy.

thore

 

[Gillette]

Here's my 2cents as to the PCI-E vs AGP situation.

There's no reason to move over to PCI-E just for kicks, only look at it if you are building an entirely new system and can afford to get _all_ new hardware.