Oversized ATX to Mini-ITX

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bencho

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
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Trying this again the right way...
I'd like to cram everything I have right now into a Mini-ITX case.
I'm specifically looking at the Lian Li PC-Q18 right now; unless something better comes out within the next 6 months.

I need to retain 4 display connectivity.
I'd like to implement raid 5 (i've never implemented raid before) that can do 6+ TB.
I'd like to have a sound card.
I'm not sure if it's easier to just build a tiny main box, and implement raid5 in a standalone NAS box. (which i need to learn how to do) OR just do the Lian Li PC-V700WX

Current setup per my specs:
i5 2500k 3.3 O.C. 4.2 @ 1.2v
Asus P8P67 Deluxe
GSKillz Ripjaw 8GB
Corsair HX620
XFX 6950
AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1 HIFI


1. What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming, Photoshop (or other intensive programs), Web browsing, strictly HTPC/Playback, etc.
General usage, Gaming (Steam, SCII, HON), Lightroom 4, Netflix/Movies, Music

2. Will you be overclocking?
Yes, nothing that that stock cooler can't handle. See above specs.

3. What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included in this budget? Is your budget flexible? Is cost a driving factor in component selection?
If I am reusing as much as possible and not implementing Raid5 immediately, then $500 or so.
If it is better to do an upgrade from my current CPU, I would spend maybe $750-$1000

4. Where do you live? Do you have any big B&M (brick and mortar) computer chains nearby (e.g. Microcenter, Fry's, etc)?
Relocating to San Francisco, CA in January '13 so dunno yet

5. What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.
Motherboard, Case, SSD, maybe new PSU for full modular capability, sound card, (perc i5? if I can do a primary SSD with 6+ TB in Raid 5... but there's only one PCIe slot for my graphics card...)

6. If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. For reused parts, list brands, model #s, and, if applicable, firmware revisions.
HDDs (various capacities), Corsair HX620(maybe), i5 2500k 3.3, GSKillz Ripjaw 8GB, XFX 6950

7. What specific features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc. Which is more important, size of the system or having the particular feature? Make sure you indicate *required* vs. *wanted* for each feature you list.
Required
USB 3.0, SATA 6Gb, external Sata Port Multiplication to hook up to an IcyDock 4Bay external.
Desired
RAID 5 capable (6+TB)
I'd like to go as small as I can

8. What resolution output do you need? 1080p, 720p, DVD quality, etc for HTPC or list Vertical/horizontal resolution for non-HTPC SFF rigs. Do you need multiple monitor output?
I plan to do 2560x1440 (2), 1050x1680 (1), 1920x1080 (1)

9. Does this system need to fit into a particular space and do you need an optical drive? Think entertainment center shelves, closet space, rackmount, etc. Many modern SFF cases have either removed the optical drive or have been constructed so that removing the ODD increases the configuration possibilities immensely.
I need an optical drive. I can do slim drives. Must be SATA.

10. How comfortable are you with custom case design/modification and electrical wiring? What tools do you have (Screwdrivers/Leatherman, Drill, Dremel, Metal snips, Soldering Iron, Bending Brake, CNC/Welding machines/Plasma cutter, etc...)?
I don't have any of those tools currently. Would prefer a case that is ready to go out of the box. If customizing is necessary, I can figure it out.

11. How important is the noise/silence of this sytem? HTPCs typically want to be quiet while all-out SFF gaming rigs don't care
Quieter the better! i.e. I'll drop in expensive fans if necessary. Not looking to watercool, although I have been eyeing the Corsair H60. This is more of a preference, not a necessity

12. How mobile does this system need to be? Need a carrying handle or carrying straps? Is weight important (carry-on bag, etc)? Water cooling quick disconnects, etc?
Moving cross-country and possibly apartment hopping has led me to desire a small, pick it up and go system. No H2O!

13. Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit? Remember that OEM copies of Win7 have issues with new motherboards
Yes, Windows 7

14. When do you plan on building/buying the PC? Immediately, in a couple weeks, 3-5 years?
In 3-6 months.
 
bencho said:
14. When do you plan on building/buying the PC? Immediately, in a couple weeks, 3-5 years?
In 3-6 months.
Click to expand...

Generally speaking, buying advice that far in advance for computer parts is almost useless because things can and will change. Choose a part ahead of time? Will it be available by your purchase date? Still in stock? Discontinued? Better choice available? I always recommend asking for final purchase decisions 1-2 weeks before the date you actually whip out your wallet. In the meantime keep looking at cases, especially threads here in the SFF forum regarding cases. Case choice is probably more difficult in SFF than any other component choice. Speaking of which, Lian Li discontinues cases pretty fast compared to other companies. That PC-Q18 at least is just another variant of the original PC-Q08 which was fairly popular, so it is probably sticking around.

Other than that, here is some info/recommendations for you.

Most ITX boards have only four SATA ports. Highest end chipsets like Z77 will support RAID5, but you will be limited on how many drives you can have. Oh, and the obligatory "RAID is not a backup." If you need mass amounts of storage, I would recommend either a NAS box or a USB 3.0 external box (if data doesn't need to be shared) that holds multiple drives. Oh yeah, and use the largest drives available, to maximize storage capacity in a small size.

Most ITX boards use the Intel chipset SATA for the eSATA, which AFAIK means no port multiplier. Thus one of your "required" can't be met.

It would be pretty easy to re-use your 2500K in an ITX board, even overclocked to 4.2GHz. Cooling might be an issue, but tackle that after you choose your case. This is where the all-in-one liquid coolers like the Corsair H-series really shine. That top fan on the PC-Q18? You can use a slim 120mm fan (Scythe makes some 12mm thick, Yate Loon has 20mm thick, normal fans are 25mm) and one of the lower end coolers like the H50 which has a thin radiator.
 
Unless you can find a way to run a/your soundcard off a half height mini-PCIe slot, you can't run one on an ITX board without giving up your graphics card. Maybe look into external soundcards?
 
Gotcha.
I'm having a big issue weighing the pros and cons right now.

Option 1
Small mITX for my core system OS on SSD, with 2 additional drives for data, with another small mITX as a 24/7 NAS, RAID 5.
The NAS would serve as my first backup to my core system, keeping copies of my photos and personal data. It would also hold videos, anime series, and other things that I would be heartbroken to lose, but not be severely affected. I would then keep my IcyDock 4bay as another backup of photos and personal data. Thus keeping 1 live copy of my super important stuff, and two additional backups.

Option 2
Combine the systems into the same box and the IcyDock 4bay as a backup for photos and videos. Not sure if this can be done or if it is best practice.. but the core system would have OS on SSD with the two additional drives, and then another set of drives in RAID5. I would not go SFF if this was the case, just to have the flexibility of additional slots on a full atx board.

No Port Multiplication is a bummer. I can do USB to the IcyDock but it is SLOW.
4 ports would be super tight, especially since there are no additional slots besides my 6950. I'd have 1 ssd, 2 hdd, and 1 optical. Full House :(
If I'm looking to do this... is it worth it to wait and see what new chips are coming up in 2013?
 
1911Shootist said:
Unless you can find a way to run a/your soundcard off a half height mini-PCIe slot, you can't run one on an ITX board without giving up your graphics card. Maybe look into external soundcards?
Click to expand...

Yeap. I looked the Dragonfly DAC and ZERO DAC. Not too familiar with it yet but those seem like "higher" end stuff. I've never used onboard sound but who knows... maybe it has improved lately?
 
Regarding waiting, if you always play that game you will end up never upgrading. HOWEVER, you mentioned 3-6 months. That goes with what I was saying about not deciding on parts so far in advance. Intel's next chip (Haswell) will be out sometime next year, expected somewhere between March and June. Of course "expected" means some spying and guesswork. There is zero guarantee that the CPU will actually be released in that time span... but chances are reasonable. The new CPU is expected to perform 10% better, use less power and have a much better integrated graphics (estimated 2x faster than current HD 4000). Overclocking is unknown. Chipsets will probably be similar to now, only with maybe more SATA 6G and USB 3.0 ports and less of the slower ports.

And, that goes back to the "wait until 1-2 weeks from buying, before deciding on parts." In 3-6 months when you are actually ready to spend money, we may (or may not) know a lot more about Haswell. There also may be (or may not be) better cases coming out for your needs.

Regarding your two stated options, if you EVER want to move your system around (LAN parties, bring to work, traveling) or you need to access the files from multiple computers, then I would suggest 1. Also, if you want very minimal desktop size. Otherwise, 2 is probably cheaper.

Regarding audio, most people (by that I mean probably 99% of persons who ever use a computer regularly) are perfectly fine with integrated audio. For more discerning listeners, there are numerous options available. External DACs are one option, from dedicated units to simply AV receivers with SDPIF to USB soundcards. Kind of depends on your budget, whether you consider yourself an audiophile and what your uses are. For instance, do you use an HDTV through HDMI? Then you probably send digital sound through the HDMI cable from your video card, thus bypassing your onboard sound anyways. Use higher end headphones? You'll probably want a headphone amp with its own DAC or USB soundcard. Use typical multimedia or gaming speakers? Onboard sound is probably fine. Want to use bookshelf speakers? Onboard sound hooked up to an AV receiver using SPDIF is probably fine.

There are still those who complain about onboard sound "not sounding good." Those generally fall into three camps.
1) Audiophiles - nothing is too good. ;)
2) Gamers who have always used SoundBlaster cards - because Creative Labs are careful in choosing the DACs that they use to make a certain warm sound. This is like how every time you get a rental car, the previous person has turned up the bass and treble all the way, or how some people love the way traditional Bose speakers sound. Basically, it isn't about accuracy or clarity, but about "warm" sound.
3) Those who can hear electrical noise in the sound output, either crackling or buzzing. That could be just a bad implementation or bad trace layout of the PCB, and discrete sound cards are an easy fix. Note that if that noise is heard through headphones, often it is the front ports on cases, and not the onboard sound itself. Trying headphones on rear ports will tell you if this is the case. I've known computers to have electrical buzzing sounds through the case front ports even when using SoundBlaster cards (some, like the X-Fi Titanium, have front sound headers).
 
I am not to sure if you would want to go down this route but the shuttle barebones systems are actually mini dtx which would afford you two pcie slots 16x and one 4x in the z77 model http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101129. That way if you wanted to move to a single slot video card like the afox 7850 http://www.afox-corp.com/en/products_details.asp?proid=208 you could in theory run your soundblaster and your videocard. You might luck out with port multiplying on the esata and maybe it has the virtualu so you could run 4 displays with some off the intel / onboards ports. As a bonus you would get room for 4 memory slots and 3 3.5 drives.
 
rhansen5_99 said:
shuttle barebones systems are actually mini dtx
Click to expand...

Minor nitpick, but this isn't quite accurate. It's true Shuttle motherboards have two expansion slots like DTX/MDTX, but it's a proprietary form factor that is much deeper than either (deeper than standard ATX, in fact). See this pic.
 
Not feeling the case but great info though. I didn't know that they made this "tweener" of a mobo.
You can say I'm a Lian Li fanboy so I'd rather much stay with one of their boxes.

Is anyone familiar with Lian Li their release cycles?

Since it will be a while, I guess I can hold out and just watch for new core components.

Since we're on the same train of thought, I'd like to shrink my parent's build down to a miniITX at some point. Their needs are very similar compared to mine: general web browsing, listening to online radio, some movies/netflix. I'm also in the process of teaching my dad Lightroom 4 and getting both of them to use Spotify. They would never be gaming though. Does anyone have any comments on this: http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/produc...ex=601&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=64&g=f
I'm envisioning 8gb of ram, not sure which processor, and I'm probably going to use the Lian Li PSU extender to get more room inside the case and open up my fully modular PSU options.
What graphics card can output to 3 displays and still fit under the 180mm on this case?
 
You just missed (ended yesterday) a Newegg deal on the Lian Li PC-Q07 for $50 shipped. That case is really similar to the PC-Q03, with the big difference being it uses normal optical drives (not slim), capable of holding fewer 2.5" drives and doesn't come with the SFX PSU adapter plate.

Speaking of PSUs, why are you going fully modular? Just buy a PSU that does not have more wattage than needed, and you won't have many extra cables to fiddle with.

Combined with an Ivy Bridge processor, H77 and Z77 supports three displays at once. Just find a board that has three digital outputs and you'll be good.

Spotify is just music streaming, right? Lightroom 4 seems to be a simplified photo editing program. Nothing in this screams "powerful machine needed" so a dual core Intel Ivy Bridge with 8GB RAM, H77 chipset motherboard would suffice. A machine like that even with a couple drives (one SSD and one HDD?) will probably only need an 80W PSU.
 
Fully modular is different from regular modular because the 24 pin is modular too right? I believe Silverstone makes a short cable option for that.
I know that having modular connections introduces an extra point of failure and reduces performance due to the extra hop, but for my purposes, I would set it and forget it. Are there other cons to fully modular?

Wait, a miniITX is capable of 3 outputs??
I would have two Asus vh226h (DVI or VGA) and one TV (HDMI).

Yes, it would be 1 SSD and 1HDD. 80 seems low.. I thought a simple build (parent's box) would be in the vicinity of 350 or 450. Although I am factoring in a video card.
 
bencho said:
Fully modular is different from regular modular because the 24 pin is modular too right? I believe Silverstone makes a short cable option for that.
I know that having modular connections introduces an extra point of failure and reduces performance due to the extra hop, but for my purposes, I would set it and forget it. Are there other cons to fully modular?
Click to expand...
Yes fully modular means that the 24Pin and 8Pin EPS12V are modular as well. However the Silverstone short cable kit will only work with certain Silverstone PSUs, not PSUs from other manufacturers. The performance drop is extremely minor to the point where it's barely non-existent. The only real con to fully modular is that it generally costs you more money for a feature you may not need to use (fully modular 24Pin and 8 Pin EPS12V connectors).
bencho said:
Wait, a miniITX is capable of 3 outputs??
I would have two Asus vh226h (DVI or VGA) and one TV (HDMI).
Click to expand...
Only if you use an Ivy Bridge CPU and the motherboard uses the Z77 and H77 chipset (not sure about B75).
bencho said:
Yes, it would be 1 SSD and 1HDD. 80 seems low.. I thought a simple build (parent's box) would be in the vicinity of 350 or 450. Although I am factoring in a video card.
Click to expand...
No, not even mid-range gaming setups uses that much power. Generally the power usage of PC parts have gone down, not up.
 
I was looking at the Silverstone 450w fully modular because of the short cable pack. Figured a mITX case would benefit most from that. I guess I wouldn't mind spending a lil bit extra to "have less" cabling.

Well that is definitely interesting packing 3 video outputs! I'm not up to date on the IvyBridge offerings yet. This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131840 has dvi, hdmi, and displayport. Would all three be usable simultaneously? because I could get a DP to DVI adapter.

Cool, once I figure out what I'm putting in the box, I'll come back to get some recommendations on wattage~
 
bencho said:
Fully modular is different from regular modular because the 24 pin is modular too right? I believe Silverstone makes a short cable option for that.
I know that having modular connections introduces an extra point of failure and reduces performance due to the extra hop, but for my purposes, I would set it and forget it. Are there other cons to fully modular?
Click to expand...

If you "set and forget" why would you pay extra money for a feature that won't ever get used again? Having extra cabling inside a computer (without a side window) makes pretty much zero difference once you button it up. Air doesn't get blocked by some simple cables.

bencho said:
Yes, it would be 1 SSD and 1HDD. 80 seems low.. I thought a simple build (parent's box) would be in the vicinity of 350 or 450. Although I am factoring in a video card.
Click to expand...

Power draw chart

This page has test system which includes an overclocked Intel Core i7-3960X @ 4.3GHz, X79 chipset board, 1200W PSU. Yeah, those parts are extremely power hungry, yet you can see no single GPU went over 429W, and that was from the wall.

I think max I saw on my KAW was 138W with a Radeon 6670 and Core i5-2500K both stock clocked.
 
That is awesome! I guess that frees up the one pcie slot for a sound card or wireless nic.
Thanks!
 
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