quantum112
Limp Gawd
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Holy quadruple post, Batman!
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OLED Monitors
- Thread starter mike_j_johnson
- Start date
jeremyshaw
[H]F Junkie
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- Aug 26, 2009
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- 12,511
[H] has been having a few problems right now. Probably the db showing each of his edit's as a new post, lol...
actually all PDP blank screen as soon as content is drawn so there is flicker and obviously no S&H blur here
I have F900 and Panasonic 37PV80 (2008 720p model, same as PX80) in clone mode next to each other and motion performance of plasma is quite impressive given it's age
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Blackbeard Ben
Limp Gawd
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- Mar 3, 2010
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- 237
actually all PDP blank screen as soon as content is drawn so there is flicker and obviously no S&H blur here
I have F900 and Panasonic 37PV80 (2008 720p model, same as PX80) in clone mode next to each other and motion performance of plasma is quite impressive given it's age
Actually, PDPs flash the image multiple times during each frame - so you still have sample and hold blur, just of a different character. It's similar to how film projectors display each frame two or three times - to prevent visible flicker and to increase the perceived brightness.
But they do have response times measured in microseconds just like OLED displays.
As for the whole "real life doesn't have black frame insertions" argument... Cute.
No, it doesn't. But it doesn't have quantized steps of time, as previously mentioned. This link explains sample-and-hold far better than I can - and by inserting black frames on a sample-and-hold display you reduce the relative position error. If you have a 1:1 black frame to real frame ratio, you reduce it in half - and so on. CRTs have such a short "real frame" time and long "black frame" time that no sample and hold error is perceived on the part of the display except sometimes minor phosphor decay from white to black.
So persistence of vision both allows us to perceive blur caused by sample-and-hold displays, and allows us to perceive fast enough CRT and film projector images flicker-free.
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You just keep quoting this same FED vs LCD marketing piece, that hardly strikes me as definitive.
In real life motion does blur, look at spokes on a bicycle, even at very low speed of rotation.
BFI is essentially turning on a strobe to freeze snapshots. That will freeze action more but it really isn't necessary on a fast response displays except for a few obsessives.
But go ahead and obsess over everything. You will never be happy with anything.
Blackbeard Ben
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2010
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- 237
No no no, the onus on you is to prove that sample-and-hold blur is not a factor, when both manufacturers and research performed by independent scientists have found it to be visible and problematic to viewers. Overwhelming evidence will be needed to overturn the conclusion of multiple studies that sample-and-hold blur is a significant contributor towards motion blur in video.
Yes, motion blur is visible in real life - but the problem is that anything we track with our eyes minimizes motion blur. Try drawing your hand back and forth in front of your face in an exaggerated waving motion. Track it with your eye. Now don't track it - see how easily (and how much) it blurs in comparison? When you track your hand, it remains sharp until the angular speed is too high for your eye to track. Sample-and-hold blur does not allow you to get those sharp tracking images.
This is another one of those cases where you can't just simplify the problem by making broad assumptions. You're trying to make everything easy in black and white, but that's not the case. There's too many shades of gray and too many exceptions that aren't so exceptional in occurrence. The sum result of all these special cases - point and line sources for resolution, eye tracking for motion blur, and so on - is that current displays far under-perform compared to the human eye.
Show me this research (for curiosity). You have only repeatedly posted the same marketing materials about why our FED display is better than LCD. That is not scientific research. Regardless of scientific merit, you are still obsessing over something you haven't actually seen. Most people simply don't obsess over this visual artifact on non LCD displays or even on very fast LCD displays.
Yes, this makes it amply clear that anything we can't track blurs and also that we can't only track relatively slow motions. Move you hand with any speed and you lose it and it blurs. Motion blur is simply a fact of reality.
You take everything to obsessive theoretical extreme. The real greatest truth about the human psycho-visual system is how quickly we adapt and process out minor issues,so they are near non existent in practical impact. You are making a mountain out of theoretical mole hill that you haven't even seen.
These days nearly everyone I know has LCD monitors and LCD TVS. Most of my close friends are nerdy geeks (gamers that went into Comp Sci) so we talk technology a lot. I have never heard one person IRL complain about motion blur on any of their LCDs. Even though with LCDs, they do have slow transition and do absolutely blur motion, almost no one notices. It is only going to get better with OLED, such that only the fringe of the fringe will be in the corner ranting about S&H.
I do actually hear complaints from friends about LCD: Reflections on Glossy panels, Poor black levels in the darker conditions, poor viewing angles (in that order). These are the only complaints I have heard IRL and OLED will fix the latter two and hopefully there will be matte OLEDs to fix the former.
These forums are already a fringe of semi obsessives, and only the more extreme elements of this group rants about S&H.
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You're right, I don't hear many complaints about LCDs either. I do care about S&H/refresh rate and pixel response time/input lag w/e, but I can't blame people if they don't.
In fact I envy them
You're right, I don't hear many complaints about LCDs either. I do care about S&H/refresh rate and pixel response time/input lag w/e, but I can't blame people if they don't.
In fact I envy them
Agree, but I only worry about defects that I have seen, not theoretical ones.
I envy people who can use VA/TN screens as my personal peeve is viewing angles. I really can't use anything but IPS without getting annoyed with viewing angle shifts. But this is through personal experience with VA/TN screens sitting on my desk.
Worrying about S&H on microsecond responsive OLED screens because you don't like motion blur on LCD is a purely theoretical complaint at this time.
OLEDs real problem will be getting here. Production costs in large sizes and durability remain huge problems in comparison. Burn in will likely always be a problem and may keep them off the desktop indefinitely even after we have OLED TVs.
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Yes because made up graphs from fan sites always speed up production.
See for yourself how made up it is: http://www.oled-display.net/when-will-we-see-larger-cost-competitive-oled-tv-panels
drleospaceman
Gawd
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 518
My ap stats teacher would roll over in his grave if he saw that graph (if he were dead).I don't think it's going to take that long:
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quantum112
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2010
- Messages
- 392
If all the planets align, my CRT might last till 2014. I do have another one, but it is 4:3 and seriously, by 2014 they should damn well have a 24" OLED monitor for sale...
From a bunch of youtube clips of prototypes and Barry Young talking out his behind with a lot of might see, and probably... IOW he is guessing. His guess is no better than any others, actually worse because his job is OLED hype maintenance.
Basically projections are meaningless until they start shipping.
So far we only have LG stating when anything is coming. Of course LG promises things and never delivers.
LG said they would have 20"+ in 2010. Did not deliver.
LG said they would have 30"+ in 2011. Doesn't look like they will deliver on this either.
LG now says they will have 55" in 2012. Don't hold your breath.
Taking these guys seriously on dates is like putting down a deposit for Duke Nukem Forever in 1998.