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OLED/AMOLED

Nielo TM said:
Please do tell

But how is BP advancing in comparison OLED? I can't get any word from Samsung engineers
Click to expand...

I've posted some information on BP-LCD here:

"Widespread application of TFT blue phase LCDs is foreseeable"

The main obstacles to mass production of blue phase displays are firstly, the availability of BP materials that have a high Kerr constant and a wide temperature range. With the advent of polymer-stabilised blue phase materials, the temperature window has been expanded greatly to include room temperature. I think this is the key reason why there is renewed interest in developing BP into display products.

The second is developing a device structure that allows BP to be addressed by a-Si by reducing the maximum drive voltage from over 50 volts to under 10 volts. The University of Central Florida College of Optics and Photonics has produced at least two successful designs with maximum transmittance reached at ~9 Vrms.

You can see BP was discussed in the first day of the 2010 Display Week Symposium:

sid2010bluephase2.png


I can't predict the future time-line of BP-LCD. I'm only a reader, not someone with industry contacts. With that said, I would not be surprised if Samsung met their 2008 deadline for 2011 mass production. My expectation is, if BP-LCD can do key areas like CR well, it has the potential to be a very disruptive technology.

Reading:
http://spie.org/documents/Newsroom/Imported/003093/003093_10.pdf
http://proj.ncku.edu.tw/research/news/e/20100507/2.pdf
http://www.jst.go.jp/tt/EN/cips_details/pdf/2-9.pdf
http://www.informationdisplay.org/issues/2009/11/art3/art3.pdf
http://lcd.creol.ucf.edu/publications/2009/APL Rao BPLC.pdf
 
Whoisthisreally said:
I've posted some information on BP-LCD here:

"Widespread application of TFT blue phase LCDs is foreseeable"
Click to expand...

Blue Phase sounds a lot like Uni-Pixels TMOS display and I remember reading about Uni-Pixel Samsung collaboration. Is this the same thing, or Samsung taking the basic idea with different optical switch?

http://www.unipixel.com/06.mov

Similar idea. A sequenced pulse color source and switching pixel to mix color pulses to get the desired output.

Potential Issues:

Rainbow Effect: I haven't seen a DLP that I have liked yet where I don't get distracted by RBE. They need ultra fast switching to combat this.

Switching Contrast: I have yet to see any details on Blue Phase, but Uni-Pixels had low contrast, something like 100:1.
 
Elledan said:
Oh, I'm not saying that permanent LCD IR is easy to accomplish, just that it isn't as unlikely as some people suggest. It was easier in the past as well, and it's probably easier to accomplish on cheap LCDs nowadays. They may have added some tricks in the display firmware to prevent IR as well, as they do with PDP (never seen IR with the PDP downstairs since we got it, and we abuse it a lot).

Drive voltage for the crystals would play a big role, just as it does with OLED IR. IR with CRTs has been virtually solved as well. It just takes a few generations to shake out the worst bugs :)
Click to expand...

yeah they do stuff like flip polarizations (although if you happen to display a pattern that exactly does not suit the particular set it will flicker a lot unless they adjusted things perfectly which is rarely the case) every frame
 
Snowdog said:
Blue Phase sounds a lot like Uni-Pixels TMOS display and I remember reading about Uni-Pixel Samsung collaboration. Is this the same thing, or Samsung taking the basic idea with different optical switch?

http://www.unipixel.com/06.mov

Similar idea. A sequenced pulse color source and switching pixel to mix color pulses to get the desired output.

Potential Issues:

Rainbow Effect: I haven't seen a DLP that I have liked yet where I don't get distracted by RBE. They need ultra fast switching to combat this.

Switching Contrast: I have yet to see any details on Blue Phase, but Uni-Pixels had low contrast, something like 100:1.
Click to expand...

There is no word on whether Samsung will use Field-Sequential Colour on their blue phase products. It just keeps getting mentioned because of the 0.1-0.3 ms response time of BP, which makes it a highly suitable candidate for FSC.

I don't know what to expect in terms of colour break-up / RBE. How do we compare the mechanical DLP to a LED direct view display?
 
Whoisthisreally said:
There is no word on whether Samsung will use Field-Sequential Colour on their blue phase products. It just keeps getting mentioned because of the 0.1-0.3 ms response time of BP, which makes it a highly suitable candidate for FSC.

I don't know what to expect in terms of colour break-up / RBE. How do we compare the mechanical DLP to a LED direct view display?
Click to expand...

BP is interesting, but I would definitely prefer passing on the sequential color, it looks more like a potential cost saving measure (1/3 the pixel count, so 1/3 the transistor count).

Use typical color filters to avoid sequential color artifacts and I would be interested. Then the issue becomes how good is the native contrast.
 
Snowdog said:
BP is interesting, but I would definitely prefer passing on the sequential color, it looks more like a potential cost saving measure (1/3 the pixel count, so 1/3 the transistor count).

Use typical color filters to avoid sequential color artifacts and I would be interested. Then the issue becomes how good is the native contrast.
Click to expand...

FSC is definitely not a cost saving measure. It requires a full field RGB-LED backlight. The efficiency improvements are enormous, starting with removing the 66% light blocking colour filters. You can then either triple the resolution or have the same amount of pixels per area, except with a much higher transmissive / non-transmissive area count.

As for contrast, BP is described has having a flawless dark state; the only light leakage being off-axis elliptically polarised light, which is common in VA and IPS as well.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
As for contrast, BP is described has having a flawless dark state; the only light leakage being off-axis elliptically polarised light, which is common in VA and IPS as well.
Click to expand...

Claims like this are meaningless to me. Uni-Pixel TMOS had similar theoretical claims about black/contrast, yet the practical device they built had about 100:1 contrast because of light leakage in the off state.

In the same timeframe that Samsung was talking BP they were talking TMOS:
http://hd.engadget.com/2009/02/04/samsung-hedges-its-bets-with-unipixels-tmos-display-technology/

BP is interesting, TMOS was interesting, FED/SED was interesting. I take all claims about actually getting a consumer display with a massive amount of skepticism until they ship. In almost every case exaggerations are made about specs or when we might actually get one, if ever. Nothing is that exciting if it doesn't ship.

For me the next potentially exciting panel is the AMVA5 panels that should ship within a year with 16000:1 native contrast and better viewing angles. It will be interesting to see if this lives up to claims.
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/06/09/auo-shows-160001-contrast-ratio-amva-displays/
 
Snowdog said:
Claims like this are meaningless to me. Uni-Pixel TMOS had similar theoretical claims about black/contrast, yet the practical device they built had about 100:1 contrast because of light leakage in the off state.

In the same timeframe that Samsung was talking BP they were talking TMOS:
http://hd.engadget.com/2009/02/04/samsung-hedges-its-bets-with-unipixels-tmos-display-technology/

BP is interesting, TMOS was interesting, FED/SED was interesting. I take all claims about actually getting a consumer display with a massive amount of skepticism until they ship. In almost every case exaggerations are made about specs or when we might actually get one, if ever. Nothing is that exciting if it doesn't ship.

For me the next potentially exciting panel is the AMVA5 panels that should ship within a year with 16000:1 native contrast and better viewing angles. It will be interesting to see if this lives up to claims.
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/06/09/auo-shows-160001-contrast-ratio-amva-displays/
Click to expand...

I agree - AMVA5 sounds like a very large improvement over current SOTA computer displays (if specs are to be believed) and is one of the very few next-gen technologies that I have seen specifically mentioned primarily in the context of computer monitors instead of televisions first. It's a minor manufacturing change compared to all the other technologies mentioned here so chances are it will be reasonably cheap and easy to mass produce.
 
sethk said:
is one of the very few next-gen technologies that I have seen specifically mentioned primarily in the context of computer monitors instead of televisions first.
Click to expand...


Where did you see that? I haven't seen that at all. I have seen it specifically targeted as a TV technology.

As in the link I posted: "The only problem is that AUO appears to be targeting TVs and TVs only with this new technology. "

This actually doesn't bother me much. TV is really where I want the contrast. In a desktop monitor it is a minor thing to me.

My desktop Monitor has a calibrated 700:1 contrast and it is fine, I really never notice weak blacks. My TV has measured 1400:1 contrast and it has blacks that often look weak to me. That is because I always use my monitor in a lighted room, while I watch movies in a dark room with my TV.
 
Snowdog said:
Where did you see that? I haven't seen that at all. I have seen it specifically targeted as a TV technology.

As in the link I posted: "The only problem is that AUO appears to be targeting TVs and TVs only with this new technology. "

This actually doesn't bother me much. TV is really where I want the contrast. In a desktop monitor it is a minor thing to me.

My desktop Monitor has a calibrated 700:1 contrast and it is fine, I really never notice weak blacks. My TV has measured 1400:1 contrast and it has blacks that often look weak to me. That is because I always use my monitor in a lighted room, while I watch movies in a dark room with my TV.
Click to expand...

You're right - I remembered the part about the mobile displays with 3000:1 in the original article, and in my mind filled in the blanks about computer monitors. The article does not say that we are getting computer monitors anytime soon. We can still always hope, right?
 
Brilliant! Two and a half years after Sony's 11" model, we finally have one (1) 15" OLED... for 1500 British pounds (that's about $2330 US). All ten of them are just going to fly off the shelves!

Two years ago, the monitor companies made happy noises about how 15" and 17" OLEDs would go mainstream in 2009, with 19" and 20" models in 2010. At this point, I am deeply skeptical that they will ever go mainstream. Lots of talk, no deliver.
 
evilsofa said:
Brilliant! Two and a half years after Sony's 11" model, we finally have one (1) 15" OLED... for 1500 British pounds (that's about $2330 US). All ten of them are just going to fly off the shelves!

Two years ago, the monitor companies made happy noises about how 15" and 17" OLEDs would go mainstream in 2009, with 19" and 20" models in 2010. At this point, I am deeply skeptical that they will ever go mainstream. Lots of talk, no deliver.
Click to expand...

I think that Samsung, LG and others building entire factories and production lines for 5.5G and better large OLED displays says more than press releases. Demand for AMOLED screens on mobile phones and other gadgets is outstripping supply by a huge margin, causing Samsung and kin to scramble to increase supply using any means possible. At this rate LCD will vanish from portable devices within a few years. Larger display sizes seem bound to follow.

I do think that we'll first see larger AMOLED screens appear on netbooks and such applications as these generally have a 10-11" display, which would be cheaper than the 20+" displays for desktop use and TVs.
 
there are 2 small problems w/ giant OLED screens:

1) If you drop or say vacuuming near your OLED screen, you could hit it by accident. And since it's that thin, the damage can be permanent

2) Today, it's very windy, my windows is 2.5 ft. from the TV. If it were a thin OLED panel, the panel will shake front to back, or even tip over along w/ the stand. In other words, if you own an OLED, the stand must have screw drill onto the table.
 
Happy Hopping said:
there are 2 small problems w/ giant OLED screens:

1) If you drop or say vacuuming near your OLED screen, you could hit it by accident. And since it's that thin, the damage can be permanent

2) Today, it's very windy, my windows is 2.5 ft. from the TV. If it were a thin OLED panel, the panel will shake front to back, or even tip over along w/ the stand. In other words, if you own an OLED, the stand must have screw drill onto the table.
Click to expand...

You forgot the smilie to indicate you were joking :)
 
It is a manufacturing issue at the moment. They do not have a process to mass produce "large" OLED screens at a reasonable cost. All proposed methods right now are still in the design/research/idea phase. Some are even held by third party companies, so I'm not sure if any of the main manufactures would want to license them if they can avoid it by developing there own. You add in the time it will take to build/retool plants for these methods, and yea it is still very far off. I think I posted earlier in this thread that the Samsung has came out and said optimistically 2015 for consumer TVs.
 
Well, depends on your definition of 'reasonable' :) PDPs were a lot more expensive than they are right now, and they were pretty popular. I'd say that if LG or Samsung were to release a 42"-ish OLED TV for around $5,000, it'd find quite a few takers. Not as many as at $2,000 or lower, but maybe still enough to make it worthwhile.

2015 seems to be the date when OLED is expected to have a serious market presence, yes.Before that we'll see a number of them appear. Samsung's new large display manufacturing lines should be ready soon, making a 2011-2012 date plausible for their first large OLED TV. Large most likely being <30", but who cares, right? :p
 
I remain skeptical until they can show a big OLED with good life that they actually bring to market. Talk is cheap, and even product demos mean little.

I'd like to see the technology refined and for it to rise, it has a lot to like about it. However at this point I still am skeptical. It has been a rather long time, with a lot of talk and demos but little in the way of actual products. This would be the second OLED TV that I'm aware of, period.

OLED seems to be popular in small screens, and when long life isn't a concern, but it just has not happened in the TV market hardly at all.
 
Sycraft said:
This would be the second OLED TV that I'm aware of, period.
Click to expand...

So far two OLED TVs have been released: the Sony XEL-1 at 11" and the LG at 15". Also, the latter totally obliterates the former in performance, longevity and all those important metrics. Just to indicate how rapidly OLED technology is progressing in comparison to for example LCD technology :)
 
I wonder if you have ultra thin 15" OLED panel with 1366x768 resolution why the hell waste it for laughtable 15" TV sold at 1500 pounds when you could have made holy grail of all gaming notebooks and sell it to enthusiast.

I'd think that market for 3k gaming notebooks would be much bigger than for 15" 1.5k tvs.
 
Michaelius said:
I wonder if you have ultra thin 15" OLED panel with 1366x768 resolution why the hell waste it for laughtable 15" TV sold at 1500 pounds when you could have made holy grail of all gaming notebooks and sell it to enthusiast.

I'd think that market for 3k gaming notebooks would be much bigger than for 15" 1.5k tvs.
Click to expand...

You probably have a point there :) I have seen Lenovo and others show netbooks with OLED screens, though. Also, the Samsung Galaxy Tab will have a 7" AMOLED screen, if the rumours are to be believed.
 
Yep, notebooks equipped with OLED are coming for sure. OLED is the holy grail of screen technology due to its low weight, power efficiency and fantastic image quality.
BTW, I have seen the Samsung Galaxy S phone which features an AMOLED screen and the picture quality is just amazing.

I just can't wait to get my first OLED screen!
 
RadXge said:
Yep, notebooks equipped with OLED are coming for sure. OLED is the holy grail of screen technology due to its low weight, power efficiency and fantastic image quality.
BTW, I have seen the Samsung Galaxy S phone which features an AMOLED screen and the picture quality is just amazing.

I just can't wait to get my first OLED screen!
Click to expand...

Yeah I am really hoping there will finally be some decent PPI/resolution displays when OLED monitors come out. Its sad that I gotta use my 8 year old junker as even today (8+ years later) there still does not a monitor that is superior (or even equal to it) in resolution. Its sad really.

I wanna see a 12 inch 1920x1200, 20 inch 2560x1600, and 30 inch 3840x2400 resolution display. If I could go out and buy a 30 inch 3840x2400 display (even an LCD) for $5000 I would do it in a heartbeat.
 
houkouonchi said:
Yeah I am really hoping there will finally be some decent PPI/resolution displays when OLED monitors come out. Its sad that I gotta use my 8 year old junker as even today (8+ years later) there still does not a monitor that is superior (or even equal to it) in resolution. Its sad really.

I wanna see a 12 inch 1920x1200, 20 inch 2560x1600, and 30 inch 3840x2400 resolution display. If I could go out and buy a 30 inch 3840x2400 display (even an LCD) for $5000 I would do it in a heartbeat.
Click to expand...

I agree that the current resolution options offered with LCDs are just beyond sad. I mean, I looked at switching to professional LCDs from my current CRTs, and at 24" the best they can do is 1920x1200@60Hz. My current 20" CRTs can do the same vertical resolution at 85+ Hz, and I don't give a damn about horizontal resolution beyond the 4:3 ratio. It's vertical resolution I want, and I would be forced to go for 30" LCDs for that purpose. Ever looked at how much a professional 30" LCD costs? Yeah.

Professional OLED displays would be a dream come true, since one wouldn't have to compromise on viewing angles, colour reproduction, resolution and refresh rate as with CRT -> LCD.

Alas, it'll take quite a while for that to come true. I just hope my CRTs last that long :p
 
Snowdog said:
31" OLEDs have been making the rounds at trade shows for years. The question is will they announce anything?

Prediction: 2011 and $5999.
Click to expand...

Im thinking this... but at more like a $4999.99 price tag. Maybe even less, still ridiculous but ya.
 
Snowdog said:
31" OLEDs have been making the rounds at trade shows for years. The question is will they announce anything?

Prediction: 2011 and $5999.
Click to expand...

No I dont think it has. But it should be pretty easy to find a reference to backup your claim, and I would like to see it.


Anyway, there are videos and pictures out of it now. I think it's absolutely beautiful and I can't wait until they make a monitor out of it in the 600 dollars range.

http://www.oled-display.net/pictures-from-lgs-31-inch-3d-oled-television-at-ifa-2010
 
Any upcoming news on OLED selling for higher res. at 30" to 32", at least 2560x1600?
 
The only news I have heard is that of OLED TVs. Technically there are no real LCD computer displays either; only re-purposed HDTV panels :)
 
Inu said:
Im thinking this... but at more like a $4999.99 price tag. Maybe even less, still ridiculous but ya.
Click to expand...

They are going to ship in 2011: Looks like I was closer on the price, but I was too optimistic. It is 7000 Euros, which is about $9000 USD. But you have to start somewhere.

http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/09/03/lg-31-inch-oled-tv-on-sale-march-for-6000
We were told pricing for the swanky LG OLED TV would come in at &#8364;7,000, or roughly £6,000 when it goes on sale next year.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Every new tech is expensive :) Have to get those R&D costs recouped somehow. PDP used to be insanely expensive as well, now every Joe can afford one.
 
Snowdog said:
Where did you see that? I haven't seen that at all. I have seen it specifically targeted as a TV technology.

As in the link I posted: "The only problem is that AUO appears to be targeting TVs and TVs only with this new technology. "

This actually doesn't bother me much. TV is really where I want the contrast. In a desktop monitor it is a minor thing to me.

My desktop Monitor has a calibrated 700:1 contrast and it is fine, I really never notice weak blacks. My TV has measured 1400:1 contrast and it has blacks that often look weak to me. That is because I always use my monitor in a lighted room, while I watch movies in a dark room with my TV.
Click to expand...

700:1 may be fine to you, but it certainly isn't fine to me or a lot of other people. Weak blacks are quite noticeable to me with such poor contrast, especially after using an AMOLED display so much on my phone.
 
So the big price drop before Christmas is to get rid of last years
JUNK and get ready for next years JUNK.
I don't think I'll live long enogh to get a reasonably priced
AMOLED 32" Tv. Forget a 24" Monitor.
 
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