Old Fotron 500W

[glen]

I have an old Fortron 500w powersupply:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104934


For a new P67 build I'm thinking this should be enough for a HD6850, 1 SSD, 2 Green HDD's, and one Black HDD. Planning on a 4.2ghz overclock on the 2500k.

What do you think?

 

[Dangman]

No. Way too old.

 

[Zero82z]

It's pushing it. You should get a new PSU.

 

[plugwash]

Although that PSU is nominally 500W it can't deliver all of that on it's 12V rails. Even making the optimistic assumption sthat both 12V rails can be fully loaded at the same time (unlikely), that you can arrange your devices to correctly balance the 12V rails (again unlikely) and that the vendor was actually being honest (again sadly unlikely) only 372W is availiable on the 12V rails.

 

[450]

A new PSU won't be too expensive, and it's best to stay safe with all that new hardware.

 

[glen]

So how many watts do I need?

 

[THOMO]

I have an old Fortron 500w powersupply:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104934


For a new P67 build I'm thinking this should be enough for a HD6850, 1 SSD, 2 Green HDD's, and one Black HDD. ((also DVD-RW(s), possible soundcard, keyboard and mouse, 2gb-8gb of ram, cooling fans, usb devices etc)) & a 4.2ghz overclock on the 2500k.

What do you think?

No chance.

750w minimum......preferably 1Kw.

 

[Cmustang87]

No chance.

750w minimum......preferably 1Kw.

Not even close, a 650W would suffice that build. Don't waste your money on anything more than a good 750W.

Antec TruePowers - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371025
Corsair - A stronger single 12V rail, THIS or THIS.
Seasonic - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151088&cm_re=seasonnic-_-17-151-088-_-Product -$30 promo code = $109 or http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151087&cm_re=seasonnic-_-17-151-087-_-Product
- $10 with promo code.
Those are all good MFG for PSU's. I would go with the Corsairs

EDIT: To be more specific.

 

[Zero82z]

So how many watts do I need?

~500W is plenty. If you want something cheap and decent, take a look at the Antec NEO ECO 520W, Seasonic S12-II 520W, and Antec Earthwatts 500W. If you want something higher-end, look at the Seasonic X-560 or Kingwin Lazer Gold 500W.

 

[Cmustang87]

To the OP, I run a 4870 and a QX6850 on a Corsair 520HX, and I don't have problems. That 6850 pulls less power than a 4870 IIRC, so what Zero82z said is pretty much accurate.

 

[War Zone]

I use the Power Supply Calculator thingy and its telling me some were around 300watts.
your 500watt should work out fine though my self i would change it none the less with a 650watt or something.
Btw how old is the psu your using ? Psu lose their ability to convert power over time as they age and if you were to keep using it at lest open it up and clean out the dust in their and or check for bulging caps.

Power Supply Calculator

THOMO: No chance.

750w minimum......preferably 1Kw.
Reply With Quote

+1
agreed stop smoking crack lol.

 

[THOMO]

Okay well when he needs another new psu 6months down the line don't say I didn't warn you

 

[JoeBob]

The rig he is planning will probably typically consume about 250+ watts. Even adding another 6850 would bring it to less than 400 watts DC consumption. So he won't be needing anything close to 1kW. Danny and Zero82z know what they are talking about.

 

[Zero82z]

Okay well when he needs another new psu 6months down the line don't say I didn't warn you

He won't need another PSU 6 months down the line. I've run much more power-hungry systems off of ~500W PSUs in the past. You are either uninformed or paranoid, but either way, there is absolutely no need to get a 750W PSU for this kind of computer.

 

[THOMO]

It's entirely possible a 500w would suffice, however factoring in deterioration, voltage drop, possible additional hardware in future aswell as overclocking a 750w would be a wiser choice.

 

[Zero82z]

It's entirely possible a 500w would suffice, however factoring in deterioration, voltage drop, possible additional hardware in future aswell as overclocking a 750w would be a wiser choice.

1. Deterioration of what?
2. Voltage drop doesn't affect the ability of a PSU to supply its rated power. It is simply a physical property of electrical systems.
3. We're not talking about possible additional hardware in the future. We're talking about a specific system with specific requirements.
4. A 500W PSU is plenty for overclocking as well.

 

[THOMO]

1. Deterioration of what?

PSU's deteriorate over time in many aspects, if you are unaware of this then I can't help you.

3. We're not talking about possible additional hardware in the future. We're talking about a specific system with specific requirements.

Who on earth builds a system yet doesn't add to it over time?

4. A 500W PSU is plenty for overclocking as well.

Wattage takes a back seat to amperage so a blanket statement like that makes you sound silly.

Besides which your main rig in sig is of similar spec to the ops (although you've a second gpu and soundcard but one less hard-drive) yet you run it with a 1Kw psu........why is that?

 

[Zero82z]

PSU's deteriorate over time in many aspects, if you are unaware of this then I can't help you.

Who on earth builds a system yet doesn't add to it over time?

Wattage takes a back seat to amperage so a blanket statement like that makes you sound silly.

Besides which your main rig in sig is of similar spec to the ops (although you've a second gpu and soundcard but one less hard-drive) yet you run it with a 1Kw psu........why is that?

PSUs deteriorate very minimally. Things like "capacitor aging" are extremely overblown. The only thing you need to worry about is making sure the PSU is used within reasonable operating conditions and not subjected to overly high ambient temperatures. If that is done, a quality PSU should have no trouble maintaining its full rated output for years.

Many people do. And even more people than that eventually upgrade their system to new components that do not draw appreciably more power than their previous set, and perhaps even less. It's narrow-minded to assume that a person's power requirements will always increase over time, especially since nowadays one of the prevailing trends in computer hardware design is increasing performance while decreasing power consumption.

Please. Obviously I'm talking about relatively modern and high-quality PSUs, which means they will have the majority of their rated power available through +12V outputs. This is 2011, not 2002.

My main rig is not similar at all. My CPU consumes more power than his, and each of my GPUs consumes more power than a 6850. I wouldn't be surprised if his PC consumes half as much power as mine. As for why I run a 1000W PSU, the reason is simply because I found a good deal on one. Otherwise, I'd be using something in the 750W range instead. In the past, I have run this machine off a 750W unit with no problems whatsoever.

 

[War Zone]

sorce

Zero82z: The PSU will not over-volt the connected hardware if it is lightly loaded. That is just complete nonsense.

Zero82z :Voltage drop doesn't affect the ability of a PSU to supply its rated power. It is simply a physical property of electrical systems.

As far as your censored vdrop is a myth right ? Btw whats the opposite of vdrop ?

And a psu loses something like 2% of its ability to convert power per year so if the psu was 5 years old that be 10% or 500watt - 50watts = 450watt that is of cores if the 500watt psu was a 500watt in the first place and not a 450watt under load testing making it a 400watt atm if it were 5 years old depending on this that and the other thing.

 

[Zero82z]

As far as your censored vdrop is a myth right ? Btw whats the opposite of vdrop ?

And a psu loses something like 2% of its ability to convert power per year so if the psu was 5 years old that be 10% or 500watt - 50watts = 450watt that is of cores if the 500watt psu was a 500watt in the first place and not a 450watt under load testing making it a 400watt atm if it were 5 years old depending on this that and the other thing.

Where did I ever say voltage drop is a myth? Please learn to understand English before you go and criticize my statements. I said that voltage drop does not prevent a PSU from supplying its rated power, and I also said that a good PSU will not supply too much voltage to components that are connected to it if it is only lightly loaded. Both of those statements are true, and neither one implies in the least that voltage drop does not exist.

Where is your source for that? I have never seen any conclusive evidence that good PSUs lose a significant portion of their output capacity after a few years. I have however seen plenty of older PSUs still capable of living up to their labels. Couple that with the fact that many higher-end PSUs are actually built out of parts capable of handling more than the PSU is designed to handle, and it becomes quite unlikely that a good PSU will fail within a short timeframe.

 

[Cmustang87]

That is a significant wattage drop over time War Zone... I don't quite agree with that at all. Still not quite sure why you compared Zero's rig with the OPs rig either.

I think you should move along to the next thread and stop posting complete garbage.

 

[THOMO]

My main rig is not similar at all. My CPU consumes more power than his, and each of my GPUs consumes more power than a 6850. I wouldn't be surprised if his PC consumes half as much power as mine. As for why I run a 1000W PSU, the reason is simply because I found a good deal on one. Otherwise, I'd be using something in the 750W range instead. In the past, I have run this machine off a 750W unit with no problems whatsoever.

Zero, your going to great lengths to explain away my reasoning behind a 750w psu. I really don't know what your problem is. The op asked for advice and I gave my opinion. If he wants to try his current 500w psu he's free to do so. If he'd like to try to get by with a new 500w psu and have to upgrade to another psu if he ever adds any further components he's also free to do so. If he'd like to have the constant nag of "is it my psu" when he's trying to stabilise a decent overclock then best of luck to him. I merely stated a 750w psu would be a wiser purchase since it will afford him some more future breathing room aswell as bring him a little more piece of mind.

You seem to be on some "prove thomo wrong" mission and yet at your own admission would personally use a 750w psu yourself (with a similar system to the ops proposed rig, albeit a little more power-hungry) had you not found such a good deal on the 1Kw

 

[THOMO]

Still not quite sure why you compared Zero's rig with the OPs rig either.

I think you should move along to the next thread and stop posting complete garbage.

OP PC
P67 mobo
2500k at 4.2ghz
6850
1 x SSD
3 x HDD

ZERO PC
Rampage mobo
i7-920 @ 4ghz
gtx260
5870
1x SSD
2x HDD
XONAR

Similar = 1. showing resemblance in qualities, characteristics, or appearance; alike but not identical

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similar

 

[Zero82z]

Zero, your going to great lengths to explain away my reasoning behind a 750w psu. I really don't know what your problem is. The op asked for advice and I gave my opinion. If he wants to try his current 500w psu he's free to do so. If he'd like to try to get by with a new 500w psu and have to upgrade to another psu if he ever adds any further components he's also free to do so. If he'd like to have the constant nag of "is it my psu" when he's trying to stabilise a decent overclock then best of luck to him. I merely stated a 750w psu would be a wiser purchase since it will afford him some more future breathing room aswell as bring him a little more piece of mind.

You seem to be on some "prove thomo wrong" mission and yet at your own admission would personally use a 750w psu yourself (with a similar system to the ops proposed rig, albeit a little more power-hungry) had you not found such a good deal on the 1Kw

My only point here is that you are wrong to say that a 750W PSU would be a wiser purchase. It would be more expensive while providing no benefit. Like I already did say, my PC actually consumes quite a bit more power than the OP's proposed rig, quite possibly on the order of twice as much. Yes, I would use a 750W PSU for my main rig, but that is a completely different situation.

I'm not saying a 750W PSU would be bad. I'm saying it would be unnecessary. You on the other hand have implied several times that a good 500W PSU would not be enough and could pose problems, which is not true at all.

OP PC ZERO PC
P67 mobo Rampage mobo
2500k at 4.2ghz i7-920 @ 4ghz
6850 gtx260
1 x SSD 5870
3 x HDD 1x SSD
2x HDD
XONAR

Similar = 1. showing resemblance in qualities, characteristics, or appearance; alike but not identical

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similar

An i7 920 at 4GHz consumes much more power than a 2600K at 4.2GHz, and even more power compared to a 2500K at that speed. A 5870 consumes almost twice as much as a 6850 during gaming. A GTX 260 consumes about 15W more than a 6850. My system is not similar to the OP's as far as power consumption is concerned.

 

[THOMO]

Well if we're talking silverstone/pc&p 500w level psu then I might be persuaded to agree with you.

I've always been taught to make sure your power source is as stable and reliable as possible, but I suppose I can be a little overly cautious at times

I'll change my opinion to a good quality 500w psu minimum and leave it at that, atleast that way I might no alienate myself too much

 

[Zero82z]

Take a look at my first post in this thread to see the kinds of PSUs I'm talking about.

 

[THOMO]

A 5870 consumes almost twice as much as a 6850 during gaming. A GTX 260 consumes about 15W more than a 6850. My system is not similar to the OP's as far as power consumption is concerned.

You game on a gtx260 & 5870 at the same time in same pc? No wonder you need 1Kw psu

 

[Cmustang87]

OP PC
P67 mobo
2500k at 4.2ghz
6850
1 x SSD
3 x HDD

ZERO PC
Rampage mobo
i7-920 @ 4ghz
gtx260
5870
1x SSD
2x HDD
XONAR

Similar = 1. showing resemblance in qualities, characteristics, or appearance; alike but not identical

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similar

They are not even similar.

 

[THOMO]

They are not even similar.

The difference is 50w-60w with cpu draw and a hundred or so watts difference between gpu's. Regardless how hard he tries he cant game on BOTH the gpu's at once so won't draw full load for both cards (unless he folds on both them which no doubt he does since it helps his argument).

I often wonder why there's a word called "similar" when everything is exactly the fuckin' same or different with you lot. You call an i7-920/2500k totally different for a 60w power draw differential (providing the guy with the 2500k doesn't use higher than required vcore which could easily reduce that gap to almost ZERO)? I ain't talkin' cpu architectures here bungle. The mobo's aren't worth mentioning......the gpu's are the greatest difference and even those have no more than 100w between them. Then there's SSD+HDD's which aren't worth mentioning either.

So their systems are similar but zero has a higher total power usage is all.

Let me guess.....you'd need to match each component exactly for you to consider it a similar system? That's call "the same".

 

[Cmustang87]

No you just used the term similar a little looser than I do, didn't mean to offend you.

 

[THOMO]

no worries, I hear ya.

 

[merliwolf]

Sorry crazy people, 500w is more than enough for his system. Heck even a good 400w would probably work. The issue is that the psu itself isn't very good, upgrading to a similar size psu of better quality would be a good idea. And ya I still have seen not a single good example of psus degrading below their wattage output for a high quality one. Show me a good working seasonic that degraded below the rated wattage first

 

[Zero82z]

So their systems are similar but zero has a higher total power usage is all.

Let me guess.....you'd need to match each component exactly for you to consider it a similar system? That's call "the same".

Since we're talking about power draw, similar means different PCs with power requirements that are close to each other. My PC is not similar to the OP's, because it requires quite a bit more power. Any other similarities between our components are really irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[SilverSliver]

A good quality 500w PSU will be fine. Everyone saying otherwise is tarded.

edit -- OC'd 2600k, OC'd 6950, 7 fans, 1 SSD, 2 HDD's, DVD drive and misc USB draw 96-104w idle. Around 330-360w with everything under max load according to my UPS.

 

[THOMO]

6950 fully loaded uses 256watts - http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2010/12/16/ati-radeon-hd-6950-review/10
2600k @ 4.4Ghz = 111watts - http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/...core-i7-2600k-i5-2500k-core-i3-2100-tested/21

256w+111w= 367w for CPU and GPU alone......without the gpu being oc'd.

Yet you've got a 2600k at 5ghz, an OC'd 6950 (bit-techs is stock), 8GB of ram (which uses power last time I checked), 7 fans, an SSD, 2 HDD's and a dvd-drive and your entire system only pulls 360w MAX FULLY LOADED huh?

I think your UPS is fucked

edit : oh and what psu do you use? let me guess.......a 750w?

 

[War Zone]

Agreed 500watts for the OP system is fine

Zero82z: Where is your source for that? I have never seen any conclusive evidence that good PSUs lose a significant portion of their output capacity after a few years. I have however seen plenty of older PSUs still capable of living up to their labels. Couple that with the fact that many higher-end PSUs are actually built out of parts capable of handling more than the PSU is designed to handle, and it becomes quite unlikely that a good PSU will fail within a short timeframe.

Zero82zPSUs deteriorate very minimally. Things like "capacitor aging" are extremely overblown.

wish granted
It depends not only with age, but use
temperature ,type of capacitor stress, (rippled current, etc.), and more.
In some instances, they will last 50 years. in others, they won't go
past 1.

5000 hours at +105°C with rated WVDC and rated ripple current
(4000 hours for D=10, 3000 hours for D=8, 2000 hours for D≤6.3)

5000 divided by 24{hours} = 208.3{days} divided by {365 days} = 0.57 years if used 24\7 365 days a year.

wiki : Electrolytic capacitors age as the electrolyte evaporates. In contrast with ceramic capacitors, this occurs towards the end of life of the component.When refurbishing old (especially audio) equipment, it is a good idea to replace all of the electrolyte-based capacitors. After long storage, the electrolyte and dielectric layer within electrolytic capacitors may deteriorate; before powering up equipment with old electrolytics, it may be useful to apply low voltage to allow the capacitors to reform before applying full voltage. Deteriorating capacitors are a frequent cause of hum in aging audio equipment.

Non-polarised capacitors also suffer from aging, changing their values slightly over long periods of time.

In high voltage DC applications, accumulated capacitor stress due to in-rush currents at circuit power-up can be minimized with a pre-charge circuit.

source
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]

saying electronic components last forever in this case capacitors imho is on par with having a bad medical case of {tEh Zomg reTARDEDs}

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And lets not even get in to how other components degrade over time.
And ya the 2% thing per year is more or less a ballpark number i just pulled out of my hat.
Really theirs no way to know seeing as theirs too many factors that comes in to play but the most important ones are load & consistent ambient temp.
If your running your psu at 110% of what it can do and in a hot part of the world expect it to last only months .if the load is at say 50% and in a cold part of the world expect it to last for years.

And i was wrong about the vdrop under-load when it comes to switching power supplys .
I figured id do a once over seeing as i was using dated information off the top of my head.
Bin some years since i hit the books on the topic so i figured id do a once over to freshen up on the topic .
Depending on the type of power correction used on a Power supply unit {active pfc\passive pfc\no pfc\other} changes things as well as this that and the other thing .
In some cases not having a load on a switching Power supply unit can make the voltage levels drop or go up !
i was just dealing with someone in a different part of the forum were under-load their vcore for their cpu doesn't drop but gos up from 1.4v to 1.5V ! under load.
Go figure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
further reading
Anatomy of Switching Power Supplies
Everything You Need to Know About Power Supplies

 

[glen]

I appreciate the input. I know there was a time when not all 500W power supplies were created equal. The Fortron had a very good reputation, and it has proven in its service.

I admit I am leary of buying a new power supply because it was often shown that Fotron units back then were grossly under rated, so good chance this PS is at least 600W's?

And not knowing the current situation with power supply brands I am a bit cold foot in trying a new one.

 

[War Zone]

Ya lot of bs out their of late on the psu topic like when it comes to no name brand "X" $15 500watt their really 250watt psu's with 500watt stickers that if you use em on say a Pentium 2 450MHz 256meg ram setup it'll work for years.
But if you plug that in to the new computer your setting up gl it pop the min you hit the power button and if not in a feu weeks.

Anyways if you need a good review site for psu this place is one of the best iv found out their .link
This review place will rip psu's apart in order to figure out what the deal is and buddy only buys the psu's from a random store .He doesn't use engineering samples and isn't shy to super slam a psu company if their trying to pull a fast one that seems to happen every 2 sec on the psu topic.
As well the min your computer seems to be unstable remember your using a older psu that all ready has some of its life used up.

 

[Zero82z]

6950 fully loaded uses 256watts - http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2010/12/16/ati-radeon-hd-6950-review/10
2600k @ 4.4Ghz = 111watts - http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/...core-i7-2600k-i5-2500k-core-i3-2100-tested/21

256w+111w= 367w for CPU and GPU alone......without the gpu being oc'd.

Those are full system power consumption numbers, and they are measured from the wall. In other words, the power consumption of just the CPU and just the GPU are much lower than those values. For example, a 6950 consumes about 165W of power at load: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce-gtx-560-ti_4.html#sect0

saying electronic components last forever in this case capacitors imho is on par with having a bad medical case of {tEh Zomg reTARDEDs}

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And lets not even get in to how other components degrade over time.
And ya the 2% thing per year is more or less a ballpark number i just pulled out of my hat.
Really theirs no way to know seeing as theirs too many factors that comes in to play but the most important ones are load & consistent ambient temp.
If your running your psu at 110% of what it can do and in a hot part of the world expect it to last only months .if the load is at say 50% and in a cold part of the world expect it to last for years.

I don't claim that electronic components last forever. I said that the "capacitor aging" phenomenon is overblown. You provided references that capacitors deteriorate over time. This is true. What you did not provide is any testing regarding how quickly that occurs inside a PSU or what kind of affect that has on the PSU's capacity or performance over time. Based on the evidence I've seen, I don't have a reason to believe that capacitor degradation happens quickly at all inside a PSU, nor that it will decrease the capacity of the unit by a significant amount over a period of 5 years or less.

The other components inside a PSU are not at serious risk of degradation over time. The only one that is would be the MOVs used in the transient filters of most units, but that doesn't affect the performance of a PSU; only its resistance to power spikes.

I admit I am leary of buying a new power supply because it was often shown that Fotron units back then were grossly under rated, so good chance this PS is at least 600W's?

No, that's fairly unlikely. Never assume that a PSU is capable of outputting more than what the label tells you.

 

[SilverSliver]

6950 fully loaded uses 256watts - http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2010/12/16/ati-radeon-hd-6950-review/10
2600k @ 4.4Ghz = 111watts - http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/...core-i7-2600k-i5-2500k-core-i3-2100-tested/21

256w+111w= 367w for CPU and GPU alone......without the gpu being oc'd.

Yet you've got a 2600k at 5ghz, an OC'd 6950 (bit-techs is stock), 8GB of ram (which uses power last time I checked), 7 fans, an SSD, 2 HDD's and a dvd-drive and your entire system only pulls 360w MAX FULLY LOADED huh?

I think your UPS is fucked

edit : oh and what psu do you use? let me guess.......a 750w?

ROFL those numbers are whole system power draws at the wall for the video card test. Thanks for the link though. I love being proved right by someone too ignorant to know they are doing so.