NVMe M.2 drives. Where are they?

Chicken-and-egg problem.

Modern UEFI boards support NVMe and new OS's support it. But part of the problem is that the change is not going to impact most people so it's a low priority. It's starting to make headway in the enterprise market, though.
 
bigdogchris said:
Chicken-and-egg problem.

Modern UEFI boards support NVMe and new OS's support it. But part of the problem is that the change is not going to impact most people so it's a low priority. It's starting to make headway in the enterprise market, though.
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I had my eye on the SM951 NVMe but was put off by there not being a proper driver for it and it not working with Samsung Magician.

Win 10 round the corner and want it to go on one. Will somebody please take my money! :/
 
mw8t said:
I had my eye on the SM951 NVMe but was put off by there not being a proper driver for it and it not working with Samsung Magician.

Win 10 round the corner and want it to go on one. Will somebody please take my money! :/
Click to expand...

same boat
 
As advanced prototypes were shown at Computex'15 at the beginning of July I would be asking this question if nothing comes out during H2. Somebody who makes 1TB M.2 NVME close to the max speed of PCIE 3.0x4 will get my plenty of cash :eek:. Though 1TB might be beyond the present reach.
 
wirk said:
As advanced prototypes were shown at Computex'15 at the beginning of July I would be asking this question if nothing comes out during H2. Somebody who makes 1TB M.2 NVME close to the max speed of PCIE 3.0x4 will get my plenty of cash :eek:. Though 1TB might be beyond the present reach.
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they were promising NVMe drives H1 2015 which is why all of us are like wtf :/
 
I'm not sure why Intel is not supporting the M.2 form factor on their 750 nvme drives - i.e. their consumer P3500s (other than the supposed 512GB limit for the m.2 form factor, which would limit them to only one model sold), so I guess the Samsung SM951 will be the first m.2 nvme drive.

I'm probably going to give up and just get a PCIe 750 drive for my desktop, it sounds like it will be generally more compatible than the samsung drive anyways. Doesn't help those with laptops, I know. I would probably get the AHCI version for a laptop for now, since the NVMe version runs even hotter than the AHCI version, and that one will already hit thermal throttling in most non-desktop replacement form factors.
 
wirk said:
As advanced prototypes were shown at Computex'15 at the beginning of July I would be asking this question if nothing comes out during H2. Somebody who makes 1TB M.2 NVME close to the max speed of PCIE 3.0x4 will get my plenty of cash :eek:. Though 1TB might be beyond the present reach.
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mSATA hits 1TB, so don't see why M.2 should be too far behind (form-factor / space wise)
 
I'd actually the controller andlack of space holding back larger m.2's. To get larger sizes the controller needs to support more nand chips, the size if the board is already sandwiched in most places resulting in a lack of room.
 
The delay is possibly due to m.2 only allowing the use of two PCI-E lanes until u.2 connections (which allow using 4 PCI-E lanes) become available.
 
sethk said:
I'm not sure why Intel is not supporting the M.2 form factor on their 750 nvme drives - i.e. their consumer P3500s (other than the supposed 512GB limit for the m.2 form factor, which would limit them to only one model sold), so I guess the Samsung SM951 will be the first m.2 nvme drive.

I'm probably going to give up and just get a PCIe 750 drive for my desktop, it sounds like it will be generally more compatible than the samsung drive anyways. Doesn't help those with laptops, I know. I would probably get the AHCI version for a laptop for now, since the NVMe version runs even hotter than the AHCI version, and that one will already hit thermal throttling in most non-desktop replacement form factors.
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The Intel 750 comes in u.2 form, and there are u.2 to m.2 adapters made by MSI, ASRock and others.
 
Machupo said:
mSATA hits 1TB, so don't see why M.2 should be too far behind (form-factor / space wise)
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SomeGuy133 said:
M.2 can actually be way larger. The standard allows huge sizes
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The size limitation does not come from the standard. It is difficult to pack 1TB into the small factor when taking into account worst case of heat dissipation when big hot graphics cards are over the M.2 slot. This can of course be solved with bigger memory chips. Regarding larger than 1 TB it seems that some the new chip controllers have 1TB limit. Future is bright however, I would be very happy to exchange my 4x512=2TB SATA SSD's for one M.2 stick with the speed exceeding them even if connected into RAID.

evilsofa said:
The Intel 750 comes in u.2 form, and there are u.2 to m.2 adapters made by MSI, ASRock and others.
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But at least some of the adapters have M.2 connectors which are too high, prevents mounting of long graphics cards.
 
Unless you're running out of PCIe slots, I'm not sure I see the value proposition there with that U2+cable+adapter. Lots of slim laptops have m.2 slots, so that one I get. Buying some weird connector with an adapter and cable instead of just plugging it into a PCIe slot on the motherboard - that I don't get, except possibly in some really specific use cases.
 
Blorgon said:
lol

I shouldn't have posted in such a sleep deprived state; I totally thought you were talking about capacity, not physical size.
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huh? There are two things being talked about.

1) how many PCIe lanes. One person said only 2 lanes are possible but many MB offer 4x PCIe M.2s

2) the size of the actual cards which directly relates to the capacity. M.2 was designed to have much larger cards than mSATA. mSATA was never envisioned to have such large cards. Feel free and look back at the specs of mSATA when they first came up with it. There never planned on having 110mm cards -_- My MB supports that 110mm card. That is freakin huge.
 
SomeGuy133 said:
i am lost now :/
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I accidentally quoted the wrong post. When you said that "m.2 can actually be way larger", I was thinking that you were talking exclusively about capacity, and wondering how it was possible given it's relatively tiny physical size compared to other options. I didn't stop to consider that you meant physical size, which of course lends itself to higher capacity. And I also didn't know you could get them as large as 110mm long. So I was sitting there wondering how on earth the memory chips used in m.2 were somehow special, when really, I just misunderstood your post, and then accidentally quoted a different post altogether to add to the confusion.
 
Do not forget it is not only M.2 which counts. SSD comes in three communication format varieties: SATA, AHCI, NVME. Only NVME M.2 SSD counts.
 
that toshiba drive has potential
I don't want to upgrade from 256GB until I can get 1TB for a decent price.
 
silk186 said:
that toshiba drive has potential
I don't want to upgrade from 256GB until I can get 1TB for a decent price.
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Why upsize your boot drive at all? Go for a fast/small/cheaper M.2/PCI-E drive for your boot drive where it'll make the most difference, if you think you'll benefit from it (Adobe apps with scratch space, etc)...

And/or otherwise just start swapping HDDs for SATA SSD for data, those 1TB 850 EVO are cheap enough IMO.

I'm gonna start my Skylake build with a 256GB SM951 + a 1TB 850 EVO, will probably add a second one in RAID before the year's over (or JBOD, remains to be seen, single fast data volume is more convenient tho).
 
Impulse said:
Why upsize your boot drive at all? Go for a fast/small/cheaper M.2/PCI-E drive for your boot drive where it'll make the most difference, if you think you'll benefit from it (Adobe apps with scratch space, etc)...

And/or otherwise just start swapping HDDs for SATA SSD for data, those 1TB 850 EVO are cheap enough IMO.

I'm gonna start my Skylake build with a 256GB SM951 + a 1TB 850 EVO, will probably add a second one in RAID before the year's over (or JBOD, remains to be seen, single fast data volume is more convenient tho).
Click to expand...

some of us have 300GB of programs. Adobe CS 6.0 is freaking huge. Then you have windows, games, AutoCAD (o_O), office, other programs, and so on. I have 100+ programs plus I also like to keep certain high usage data on my actual fast drive. Photos are much faster to view, edit, and stuff on an SSD. Gawd does Bridge suck on a HDD. I even load my photos into RAM to just cut out the SSD all together. Well did. I currently don't have enough RAM to do that ATM.

I have a 480GB drive and I want NVMe but I don't want a side upgrade in terms of capacity. I want an upgrade in speed and capacity. You also have to realize some people i.e people like me have to over provision 25% because that stupid endurance wall is a bitch. I do 120GB writes a day and 350GB reads a day (average so some days i bet are liek a TB). Don't ask me how but I do. Larger the drive the longer the time is until that endurance wall is hit. I will literally have my PC hang because of the SSD. Never happened with a HDD though :/ SSDs are fast until you hit that endurance wall and then they can be slower than a HDD

@wirk I hope it is actually competitive in price and performance. Too often it ends up just being 2 real options in terms of NAND. Extreme Pro or 850 Pro rest suck. 750 or SM951 depending on what your doing.
 
There are some large NVMe 2.5" enterprise SSDs coming and a few for consumers:

Seagate Nytro XF1440, XM1440, XP6500 (4TB)
OCZ NVMe Z-Drive 6000 Series (6.4TB)
Toshiba XG3, PX04P

sethk said:
I'm not sure why Intel is not supporting the M.2 form factor on their 750 nvme drives - i.e. their consumer P3500s (other than the supposed 512GB limit for the m.2 form factor, which would limit them to only one model sold), so I guess the Samsung SM951 will be the first m.2 nvme drive.

I'm probably going to give up and just get a PCIe 750 drive for my desktop, it sounds like it will be generally more compatible than the samsung drive anyways. Doesn't help those with laptops, I know. I would probably get the AHCI version for a laptop for now, since the NVMe version runs even hotter than the AHCI version, and that one will already hit thermal throttling in most non-desktop replacement form factors.
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This is what Anandtech had to say about the M.2 form factor and Intel 750 1.2TB,
The controller is the same 18-channel behemoth running at 400MHz that is found inside the SSD DC P3700. Nearly all client-grade controllers today are 8-channel designs, so with over twice the number of channels Intel has a clear NAND bandwidth advantage over the more client-oriented designs. That said, the controller is also much more power hungry and the 1.2TB SSD 750 consumes over 20W under load, so you won't be seeing an M.2 variant with this controller.
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In the links above, it appears that M.2 will soon be differentiated primarily into laptop use or smaller capacity drives connected to an NVMe adapter, while nVME/PCIe slots will be for the larger drives. Out of all of those drives, only the Toshiba PX04P series mentions using a (SFF-8639) U.2 connector or optional NVMe adapter. The U.2 connector allows you mount newer SSDs with a flexible cable instead of a PCIe slot, but like the M.2 is limited to PCIe 3.0 x4. While the Nytro XP6500 claims to use a PCIe 3.0 x8 interface instead of x4. It will be interesting to see where the future is headed because it appears that manufacturers are already pushing these specs. I'm guessing that NVMe adapters are going to be the highest-end SSDs until they make a newer U.2 connector & cable.
 
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-PK- said:
There are some large NVMe 2.5" enterprise SSDs coming and a few for consumers:

Seagate Nytro XF1440, XM1440, XP6500 (4TB)
OCZ NVMe Z-Drive 6000 Series (6.4TB)
Toshiba XG3, PX04P



This is what Anandtech had to say about the M.2 form factor and Intel 750 1.2TB,


In the links above, it appears that M.2 will soon be differentiated primarily into laptop use or smaller capacity drives connected to an NVMe adapter, while nVME/PCIe slots will be for the larger drives. Out of all of those drives, only the Toshiba PX04P series mentions using a (SFF-8639) U.2 connector or optional NVMe adapter. The U.2 connector allows you mount newer SSDs with a flexible cable instead of a PCIe slot, but like the M.2 is limited to PCIe 3.0 x4. While the Nytro XP6500 claims to use a PCIe 3.0 x8 interface instead of x4. It will be interesting to see where the future is headed because it appears that manufacturers are already pushing these specs. I'm guessing that NVMe adapters are going to be the highest-end SSDs until they make a newer U.2 connector & cable.
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good to know but now i need a sugar mama :p
 
SomeGuy133 said:
some of us have 300GB of programs. Adobe CS 6.0 is freaking huge. Then you have windows, games, AutoCAD (o_O), office, other programs, and so on. I have 100+ programs plus I also like to keep certain high usage data on my actual fast drive. Photos are much faster to view, edit, and stuff on an SSD. Gawd does Bridge suck on a HDD. I even load my photos into RAM to just cut out the SSD all together. Well did. I currently don't have enough RAM to do that ATM.

I have a 480GB drive and I want NVMe but I don't want a side upgrade in terms of capacity. I want an upgrade in speed and capacity. You also have to realize some people i.e people like me have to over provision 25% because that stupid endurance wall is a bitch. I do 120GB writes a day and 350GB reads a day (average so some days i bet are liek a TB). Don't ask me how but I do. Larger the drive the longer the time is until that endurance wall is hit. I will literally have my PC hang because of the SSD. Never happened with a HDD though :/ SSDs are fast until you hit that endurance wall and then they can be slower than a HDD

@wirk I hope it is actually competitive in price and performance. Too often it ends up just being 2 real options in terms of NAND. Extreme Pro or 850 Pro rest suck. 750 or SM951 depending on what your doing.
Click to expand...

Games aren't gonna benefit much, if at all, from being on a bleeding edge drive. How much does that 300GB shrink to once you take them out of the equation? There's no reason you can only have a single SSD...

Even a 512GB SM951 or 400GB 750 is relatively affordable, data and games can be on a cheaper SATA SSD. Once you actually start working on photos they either reside on RAM or the scratch file on your faster drive.

For exporting/importing larger/cheaper SATA SSD are fine... I'd be really curious what kinda workload actually produces that much in writes a day, are you just hibernating to the drive several times a day? :p
 
wirk said:
Samsung crop of SSDs, among others M.2 NVME PM953, a follower of SM951 with up to 960 GB. Big capacities too.
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Wow, they're gonna use SATA Express for the 2.5" PM953? Wouldn't that be a bottleneck or step back from the SM951 or even the M.2 PM953?

At least they're doing 1-2TB capacities, that ought to make some people happy... Still no consumer version tho, unless these end up much cheaper at resellers I'll stick with a smaller SM951.

Article says they're available immediately tho, shouldn't be long until someone has pricing info.
 
Impulse said:
Games aren't gonna benefit much, if at all, from being on a bleeding edge drive. How much does that 300GB shrink to once you take them out of the equation? There's no reason you can only have a single SSD...

Even a 512GB SM951 or 400GB 750 is relatively affordable, data and games can be on a cheaper SATA SSD. Once you actually start working on photos they either reside on RAM or the scratch file on your faster drive.

For exporting/importing larger/cheaper SATA SSD are fine... I'd be really curious what kinda workload actually produces that much in writes a day, are you just hibernating to the drive several times a day? :p
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well I had a huge write up for you but I hit control r on accident thinking i was in a different tab -_-

I do stuff so i use a lot of stuff. Does that help -_- Sorry, I dont want to spend the next 20 mins retyping and trying to remember. I no longer hibernate since SSD is in a desktop and I expected my writes to drop but they went up -_-

I have 6849 power on hours. I leave it on 24/7 pretty much, which makes this even worse when you think actual ussage when i am on the machine is more condensed.

The writes and reads are 33,172 GB writes and 102,862 GB reads

It went up or down. It is noted in other posts. I went from 90 to 100 then to 110 or 120 so it is either slightly lower or higher on average, which is scary because that's life span average. So for me to change from 90-116GB per day when I was at 50% that many writes is scary.
 
SomeGuy133 said:
It went up or down. It is noted in other posts. I went from 90 to 100 then to 110 or 120 so it is either slightly lower or higher on average, which is scary because that's life span average. So for me to change from 90-116GB per day when I was at 50% that many writes is scary.
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I seem to remember from one of your previous posts that a lot of it was moving stuff around because your SSD is too small, though I could be wrong. I wonder if your workflow would change with a 2TB SSD. The Samsung 850 Pro 2TB is $1000.
 
evilsofa said:
I seem to remember from one of your previous posts that a lot of it was moving stuff around because your SSD is too small, though I could be wrong. I wonder if your workflow would change with a 2TB SSD. The Samsung 850 Pro 2TB is $1000.
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It's probably pointless to ask, he alluded to other threads but from what I've seen the story's always the same "I don't know! I do stuff! It happens!"... Wouldn't wanna cause him any more mental stress if he happens to delete another post by mistake (i kid guy, I've been there).

It'd probably benefit him to figure it out but it doesn't seem to be in the cards, no offense meant btw, not everyone has the time to trouble shoot and optimize stuff. Sometimes throwing money at a problem IS cheaper in the end.
 
Impulse said:
It's probably pointless to ask, he alluded to other threads but from what I've seen the story's always the same "I don't know! I do stuff! It happens!"... Wouldn't wanna cause him any more mental stress if he happens to delete another post by mistake (i kid guy, I've been there).

It'd probably benefit him to figure it out but it doesn't seem to be in the cards, no offense meant btw, not everyone has the time to trouble shoot and optimize stuff. Sometimes throwing money at a problem IS cheaper in the end.
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the point is I don't see how my work or whatever I do. I play games, use programs, tinker, move files, edit photos, use vercrypt containers occasionally, and other stuff....generally geeky things. So how does that make crazy amount of writes (or at least I am told I have crazy amounts)? I don't see how I am some power user that has 10x usage compared to every other soul in the world. Thats why i consistently say i don't know because i don't feel like I do a lot. I am just a geek who uses computer :/

I do believe a large amount of the issue is the lack of space. As stated about If i use it regularly I want it on my main fast drive. So I never have enough space because of that philosophy or at least until I have 1 TB....err I mean 720GB because of OPing because SSDs endurance suck.

I have a solution and I'll be there over the next 6 months with getting the large RAM again, large fast SSD, RAID array in desktop, and NAS. I am building a nice large tier system that can scale and last me a decade since i got the time and sorta have the money. I no longer living in a room that's 15x20 with 2-3 other guys and can only own whatever I can throw into a single closet/desk. (thank god)

So again. I just do normal windows stuff with gaming. Granted, with a side of photography thrown into it. Although, I do cut a lot of corners to save time, which is probably why I use more writes on my SSD. I go for whatever is convenient and saves time. It maybe not be effective on the endurance front but the time I save makes it worth it.

I.E. I know this is a NO NO but I will transfer a whole folder of images from a project edit whatever I edit and replace the entire folder. The time it takes to select 20 images verse transferring 200 is more convenient. Plus I don't have to worry about some how the old one that wasn't edit got saved. I move lots of data when taking photos in RAW. Plus I regularly save so I bet that eats up the writes. control s is very easy to hit :rolleyes: in everything. I also reinstall windows probably twice a year. I sadly need to reinstall even though i just installed this one like 3 months ago. Windows Office Pro completely got corrupted somehow. I have been using wordpad for the last month lol. It might of happened when i got some more bad sections? I am at 72 (3%) now on the Extreme Pro. When something like office eats dirt I'll fresh install to be safe because i dont want conflicts from installing over a bricked program. Generally I just revert to a prior image or something but I haven't finished my storage system to bother with acronis and I need a new SSD of some sort anyways...give me xpoint! :D

So anyways the optimizing is simply getting a solution that actually fits my needs. I am currently trying to pull a 2 horse trailer with a 1500 and not a 2500 or 3500 truck.


@evilsofa a 2TB would be awesome but a 1TB would be more than sufficient. I would have bought one 6 months ago but I want a faster one. I want two upgrades. Speed and capacity.
 
We don't know how your workload pans out that way either, and you keep bringing it up, which is why many have tried to question what's going on... It's not a personal attack, and I don't think they're doubting you either (I'm not anyway).

I dabble in photography a lot too and often dump RAWs on the main SSD array when I know I'll be working them over a while (the two SSD in sig, tho a chunk of it is outdated, have had R9s for months etc), even tho it's one more step in the processing workflow... Still not seeing that amount of writes but maybe you do it that much more frequently or your files are larger..

My wimpy 16MP M4/3 RAWs aren't that crazy. I certainly don't re-install the OS twice a year (what is this 1998?), if stuff is getting corrupted that often you might be pushing your OC too hard, or have bad RAM... Lots of possibilities.

Anyway, in wanting to get away from moving stuff like that (and from swapping games in and out too) is why I'm going to a faster but small/affordable drive for the OS/apps *that really benefit from it* then cheaper/larger SATA SSD for the rest, hence my suggestion earlier.

You don't need one SSD to rule them all inside the system when you can get a cheap 850 EVO and pair it with something faster for the things that'll really benefit from it (and no, storing RAWs isn't that demanding IMO). Small SM951 - $200-380, 1TB 850 EVO - $320; total - way less (at least 50% less) than a 1.2TB Intel 750 or anything similar that's likely to come out.

Even 2TB of EVOs plus a half gig SM951 is still about the same as a single 1.2TB 750... Sounds like you've already got a plan tho so good luck with it! Build log or it didn't happen btw. :p
 
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Impulse said:
We don't know how your workload pans out that way either, and you keep bringing it up, which is why many have tried to question what's going on... It's not a personal attack, and I don't think they're doubting you either (I'm not anyway).

I dabble in photography a lot too and often dump RAWs on the main SSD when I know I'll be working them over a while, even tho it's one more step in the processing workflow... Still not seeing that amount of writes but maybe you do it that much more frequently (I certainly don't re-install the OS twice a year, what is this 1998?)

In wanting to get away from that (and from swapping games in and out too) is why I'm going to a faster but small/affordable drive for the OS/apps *that really benefit from it* then cheaper/larger SATA SSD for the rest, hence my suggestion earlier.

You don't need one SSD to rule them all inside the system when you can get a cheap 850 EVO and pair it with something faster for the things that'll really benefit from it (and no, storing RAWs isn't that demanding IMO).

Sounds like you've already got a plan tho so good luck with it! Build log or it didn't happen btw. :p
Click to expand...

The goal is to just load games into RAM and avoid SSD except for a select few that are too big for RAM. I will be either doing a RAID 0 or RAID 10 depending on how much space I need and if I have enough HDDs.

I don't wnat to get in the details and take this OT since you keep telling me I derail these things. I plain on putting all this in a thread when done but since you ask I'll make it short,

1x 1TB NVMe SSD was going to be 750 but screw their crap warranty for a 1k drive
----it'll be replaced with xpoint FTW

6-10 HDDs in RAID 10 If I can't get that many I will do a RAID 0 of like 4 or whatever The RAID 0 of 6 drives was peaking 1GBps :D I can load an NVMe drive or RAM with my data fast and vice versa since its sequential.

NAS/DAS for long term storage. I want the NAS to be a DAS for my main PC. I do not want to be limited to Gb E so I need to figure out how to connect it. If you know let me know. I haven't gotten to researching that yet.

as a side note i loath those TLC/EVO drives. their endurance is junk. Might work for games but so does a RAID of HDDs loading it to RAM. at 1 GBps I can dump any game into RAM or SSD in seconds and have 10s of TB of space.

I am currently more concerned about getting SnapRAID and NAS working before I mess with my desktop or should I say floorbox (Core x9 case:D). I am buying this week hopefully the HBA and expander card so I can put it together. It has cheap MB and CPU from that thinkserver until I figure out what MB and CPU I really want. So after that I'll mess with desktop and building a skylake upgrade,
 
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You quoted me before I was finished editing the post, sorry, doing a few things at the same time. Having a RAM disk for games is way past overkill tho...

I don't wanna turn back your earlier comment and tell you that you're the one getting butt hurt, but I told you *once* today that you were derailing another thread... Not sure where you got the impression that it's a recurring thing (I keep telling you?). This thread seems like a more general free for all topic dedicated to the very subject, doubt anyone minds. /shrug

Oh and if you're gonna wait for Xpoint to even start your build you'll be waiting quite a while. See ya in 2017...
 
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