Nvidia taking it easy on AMD to allow them to compete better against Intel?

[paulsav]

defiantly agree with OP

 

[Derfman]

Guys this shouldn't be up for debate...

Nvidia released a monster of a card this generation (and by specs alone it looks like they literally compacted all they could onto this card to make it surpass the previous generation)...

They released it at a price that is quite usual for Nvidia's top end product... If you recall the Ultra wasn't much different than the GTX, but it still sat at a price range higher than what most were expecting it to launch at. (If I recall the threads that I read, most posters had the feeling that it was going to replace the GTX's price range and the GTX's price would drop at launch)..

Nvidia's card is definitely bringing to the table the performance that we should expect from a true next gen product...

ATi released a new generation of cards as well, and just as I said above, it has met all the check points to be a true next gen card (and considering previous blunders like the 2900XT, it proves that ATI is not out of the business just yet).

What you all have to realize here is this... AMD / ATI is a company that is hurting financially. Their previous attempts of a next gen card (post GeForce 8 series) were for the most part poorly designed... Nvidia didn't expect them to take the building blocks they currently had in place and make much improvement on them... And in no way did Nvidia expect them to release the cards at what I consider to be "Blow out Sale" pricing...

AMD / ATI may not gain so much even if these cards sell immensely, due to the low price range... But they played their cards right, produced a card that has a more successful yield (making it cheaper on them), and have priced it at an extremely competitive rate.

What has AMD / ATI gained then? The ability to stay in the market, once again increase their presence in the homes of computer gamers, and a chance to hit their competition where it royally hurts, in the wallet!

Say what you will, but Nvidia dropped the soap big time and if they can magically cram that 280 or even the 260 into that cornhole that we call the GX2... And put that at $650... They may be able to break even against the 4870X2 given the fact that ATI is still hurting reputation wise from their last blunder...

I'm getting my first ATI card in ages? What say you?

 

[ZerazaX]

I think more than a few people were caught off guard by the performance the RV770s gave.

When you look at the list of modifications and changes done to RV770, its simply mindblowing:

2.5x SP's
2.5x TMU's
Double Clocked Z for RBE's
Revised L1 cache organization and increased size
Removed ringbus, new distributed memory controllers w/ revised L2 caches and the use of the hub

As well as other features and technical details. Who would've thought they could fit all of that in 256mm^2 as well as 954 million transistors. What that proves is that ATI's engineering is still up to par with Nvidia and they can make a damned impressive product and feat of engineering.

As for pricing it so low, well... ATI said something like < 10% of the market now buys cards above $400-500 and they're trying to take the rug out from under Nvidia's feet. The reception to the 4850 and 4870 have been almost universally positive and the biggest thing for ATI is that they can now reclaim market share they lost in the past year and a half. If ATI returns to a large enough market share of the discrete GPU market, Nvidia will no longer have as much leverage with developers to adopt their API's, code, programs, etc. because suddenly there is a much larger market out there that will not want to be alienated. And for ATI, that's the long term benefit of selling to move products.

As for AMD's financial situation, ATI may help profits but AMD still makes the majority of its money off its CPU line. That's where AMD still needs to focus.

 

[rls669]

( if they can magically cram that 280 or even the 260 into that cornhole that we call the GX2... And put that at $650... They may be able to break even against the 4870X2

And either way, it will mean pretty much nothing in terms of overall sales which are mostly midrange.

 

[MrWizard6600]

Exactly. The [GTX200s] are very good, but the prices are just not up to par, especially after the competition released their cards, for much less.

I can assure you, Nvidia is not happy with the GT200. The GT200 shrink is taped out according to fud, so I suspect you'll see a 55nm version by x-mas. That said, the G92b is nothing more than exceptable. If NV hits the same loss on the 55nm GT200 they might be in trouble again. They have to get that die size down, until they do the choice is either market share or profit margine.

Nope,Nvidia just got fat n' lazy and got caught with their pants down,just like Intel was by AMD a couple years back.They got arrogant and took it for granted that ATI couldn't catch them,and kept playing games with the consumers.

eehhhhh there were several shrude moves made by Nvidia which maximized market share and profit. You've got to understand what a monumental achievment getting your entire lineup of GPUs all based on a single unit is, to compound that emmensly the G92 is a very nice unit to produce. It looks good on charts to investors, it performs well at a nice price point for consumers, the yield was high, the costs were low, life was good for NV. All Nvidia needs now is a new GPU which they can claim is the best in the world and say "your getting the same technology in a 9800GTX!" They got one, the GT200. If Nvidia can market their situation well enough I think they can come out of this with some very impressive sales numbers.

Lol. You know who owns Red Bull, right?

~S

thanks for beating me to it

I'll be intrested in what AMDs next quarterly reports look like. I think at $299 the HD4870 and at $199 the HD4850 is priced to gain market share and turn a reasonble profit.

 

[BladeVenom]

Dietrich Mateschitz and Chaleo Yoovidhya are the biggest owners of Red Bull, correct?

 

[Hooligan]

Dietrich Mateschitz and Chaleo Yoovidhya are the biggest owners of Red Bull, correct?

correct. not tied to coca cola or pepsi

 

[Kil4Thril]

correct. not tied to coca cola or pepsi

Sort of. They contract Coca Cola bottlers to make the stuff in this region (according to the cans). It may be different elsewhere. Besides, Red Bull tastes like a cross between a Tootsie Roll and a blood clot. Vile stuff.

On topic. I think the entire microchip industry is controlled well above what any of us can see. All these companies are "allowed" to perform at some point.

I'll go clean my foil cap now.

 

[Spare-Flair]

AMD and Intel have been competitors for years.

its like saying Pepsi is suddenly siding with Coca Cola against Red Bull.

not
gonna
happen.

You do realize that Intel officially supports AMD's Crossfire on their motherboards but not Nvidia SLI right?

Intel is a powerhouse but realizes that AMD puts balance and choice into the market which helps their image as staying competitive. As much as Toyota is dominating the auto-industry, they also try very hard not to put Ford/GMC out of business and actually help them as well.

 

[snowysnowcones]

Yeeeeahhh... Nvidia decided they don't like having a steady paycheck and market share and wanted to let ATI win this round


also I thought Intel used Crossfire because of anti-trust agreements (or something like that) with AMD, allowing them to use Crossfire technology license for free or a lower price?

 

[farfromhome]

also I thought Intel used Crossfire because of anti-trust agreements (or something like that) with AMD, allowing them to use Crossfire technology license for free or a lower price?

Here's my analysis of that particular situation:

Intel has no discrete GPU (yet), so its greatest desire is to sell more chipsets by making them have as many features as possible; it would love to be able to support both SLI and Crossfire. NVIDIA has its own chipsets it wants to push, so no SLI for Intel. AMD, at the time, had no chipsets of its own either. ATi made its own Crossfire chipsets for both Intel and AMD processors at first, acting just like NVIDIA in that. ATi realized it was losing to NVIDIA, so it wanted to do anything it could to increase market share, and that included letting Crossfire work on all chipsets. Note I said all--the only reason Crossfire doesn't work on NVIDIA chipsets is because NVIDIA locks it out on their chipset drivers (at least so I've heard), ATi didn't lock it out themselves. Once ATi was acquired by AMD, it had all the more reason to keep Crossfire open, as ATi chipsets became AMD chipsets, and there was no way Intel was going to let its greatest competitor build chipsets for it, but at the same time had no objection to AMD selling more GPU's, as again, Intel has no discrete GPU's of its own. To Intel it's a handy feature it can use to market its chipsets, so the two CPU rivals have a reason to cooperate in the multi-GPU arena.

Once Larrabe comes out, will Intel lock Crossfire out of its chipsets? Doubtful, as I highly suspect it will have a different audience than traditional gamer GPU's, and even if not, the last thing it wants to do is push people towards AMD chipsets (and hence CPU's) if they want to go with a proven multi-GPU setup instead of the new and experimental Larrabes. If Larrabe ever ends up gaining a dominating presence in the GPU market, that might change, but that would be many years away, and who knows what will happen by then.

 

[§kynet]

also I thought Intel used Crossfire because of anti-trust agreements (or something like that) with AMD, allowing them to use Crossfire technology license for free or a lower price?

I've never heard that one before. Intel uses crossfire tech because they need to. Plus Crossfire doesn't need any additional hardware like Nvidia is artificially forcing onto motherboards. AMD is more than happy to let Intel based motherboards accept Crossfire.

As for the thread title, no offense but the idea is totally absurd, and I'm being kind.

 

[PATSCRU]

I know I sort of sound like an nvidia fanboy because I'm assuming that nvidia is capable of more performance than they have dished out.

Yes, yes you do.

 

[GenBanks]

Yes, yes you do.

But I'm not saying that it must be the case, I'm just raising it as a possibility.

Of course it's also possible that nvidia just got owned and there's nothing more to it

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Nvidia taking it easy on ATi is like trying to tell people that the next Robocop movie is gonna be good........

 

[Atech]

Here's my analysis of that particular situation:

Intel has no discrete GPU (yet), so its greatest desire is to sell more chipsets by making them have as many features as possible; it would love to be able to support both SLI and Crossfire. NVIDIA has its own chipsets it wants to push, so no SLI for Intel. AMD, at the time, had no chipsets of its own either. ATi made its own Crossfire chipsets for both Intel and AMD processors at first, acting just like NVIDIA in that. ATi realized it was losing to NVIDIA, so it wanted to do anything it could to increase market share, and that included letting Crossfire work on all chipsets. Note I said all--the only reason Crossfire doesn't work on NVIDIA chipsets is because NVIDIA locks it out on their chipset drivers (at least so I've heard), ATi didn't lock it out themselves. Once ATi was acquired by AMD, it had all the more reason to keep Crossfire open, as ATi chipsets became AMD chipsets, and there was no way Intel was going to let its greatest competitor build chipsets for it, but at the same time had no objection to AMD selling more GPU's, as again, Intel has no discrete GPU's of its own. To Intel it's a handy feature it can use to market its chipsets, so the two CPU rivals have a reason to cooperate in the multi-GPU arena.

Once Larrabe comes out, will Intel lock Crossfire out of its chipsets? Doubtful, as I highly suspect it will have a different audience than traditional gamer GPU's, and even if not, the last thing it wants to do is push people towards AMD chipsets (and hence CPU's) if they want to go with a proven multi-GPU setup instead of the new and experimental Larrabes. If Larrabe ever ends up gaining a dominating presence in the GPU market, that might change, but that would be many years away, and who knows what will happen by then.

Don't forget "Nehalem"...Intel says NO NVIDIA chipset for "Nehalem"...so NVIDIA is have to face a though call:
No "Nehalem" chipset but SLI to it self...or Nehalem chipset and Intel gets SLI...either solution will cost NVIDIA sales.

 

[Leepox]

Companies always will try to maximise profits to get most shares. In this case Nvidia seems to be on the losing team. Even intel is conspiring against them

Its always been like this with CPU's and GPU's, balance will shif sometime or another

 

[kllrnohj]

You do realize that Intel officially supports AMD's Crossfire on their motherboards but not Nvidia SLI right?

Intel is a powerhouse but realizes that AMD puts balance and choice into the market which helps their image as staying competitive. As much as Toyota is dominating the auto-industry, they also try very hard not to put Ford/GMC out of business and actually help them as well.

No, no, no. You have it backwards. AMD's Crossfire officially supports Intel's chipsets. Intel has absolutely NOTHING to do with Crossfire OR SLI, NOTHING. The *ONLY* reason SLI doesn't work on Intel chipsets is because Nvidia locks it out, and the *ONLY* reason Crossfire works on Intel chipsets is because AMD *DOESN'T* lock it out. Intel has no say in the matter (although they could lock both companies out at a driver level, but that would be taking "shooting yourself in the foot" to the extreme ). The chipset itself is completely irrelevant aside from whether or not it supports 2 x16 slots and whether or not it has enough PCI-E lanes.

There isn't any "crossfire licensing" or anti-trust crap.

 

[cybereality]

No, no, no. You have it backwards. AMD's Crossfire officially supports Intel's chipsets. Intel has absolutely NOTHING to do with Crossfire OR SLI, NOTHING. The *ONLY* reason SLI doesn't work on Intel chipsets is because Nvidia locks it out, and the *ONLY* reason Crossfire works on Intel chipsets is because AMD *DOESN'T* lock it out. Intel has no say in the matter (although they could lock both companies out at a driver level, but that would be taking "shooting yourself in the foot" to the extreme ). The chipset itself is completely irrelevant aside from whether or not it supports 2 x16 slots and whether or not it has enough PCI-E lanes.

There isn't any "crossfire licensing" or anti-trust crap.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[sethk]

AMD is a threat for intel that's been contained in the short term in the CPU/Enterprise space. Nvidia is still making Intel chipsets, which makes them a competitor in that space. They refuse to license SLI, except at such high prices (probably with the requirement that an Nvidia chip be used) that Skulltrail is the only current intel chipset combo/board with SLI support.

Even if / when Intel has a graphics solution, its not going to be immediately competitive in the high end. I think intel sees both AMD and Nvidia as competitors (GPGPU is scary for them), and will team up with either in the short term for immediate advantage, but in the long term, they're not doing either any real favors.