Nvidia still faster?

TheBuzzer

TheBuzzer

HACK THE WORLD!
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Aug 15, 2005
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The new ati card sure is fast but it is a single card with built in crossfire to the 2 gpus. So they are comparing 2 gpus to a single gpu in most tests. They should be comparing to nvidia 280 sli. Maybe in a few months nvidia will realese 280 gx2 or something to also have two gpu on one card.

So what is faster, the 280 gpu or a 4870 gpu?
 
GT200 is more capable and (generally) faster than one RV770, at least at stock clock speeds. It's kind of pointless to compare the GPUs directly though, since the other attributes of the actual cards have a profound impact on performance (like memory bandwidth).

Comparing one 4870 X2 to one GTX 280 seems totally reasonable to me.
 
TheBuzzer said:
The new ati card sure is fast but it is a single card with built in crossfire to the 2 gpus. So they are comparing 2 gpus to a single gpu in most tests. They should be comparing to nvidia 280 sli. Maybe in a few months nvidia will realese 280 gx2 or something to also have two gpu on one card.

So what is faster, the 280 gpu or a 4870 gpu?
Click to expand...

Did you know that the GTX280 die size is bigger than two HD4870 dies combined? In another word, AMD is much faster with the same die size. :D
 
Comparing cards at a given price point is what matters. Who cares if there are two GPUs or one on a card. Sure 280 in SLI would be faster than a 4870X2 but its double the cost.
 
The point is to not compare GPU vs. GPU.

Rather, compare total graphics capability to price.

Ferrari vs. Ford Focus is not fair until you account for price. (Not to imply that the 4870X2 is a ford focus. In fact it is amazing for the price point. I for one am looking to buy.)
 
mikecoscia said:
Comparing cards at a given price point is what matters. Who cares if there are two GPUs or one on a card. Sure 280 in SLI would be faster than a 4870X2 but its double the cost.
Click to expand...

QFT.
@ ~$900, the sli setup doesn't seem so hot anymore when compared to $500 for an x2.
 
mikecoscia said:
Comparing cards at a given price point is what matters. Who cares if there are two GPUs or one on a card. Sure 280 in SLI would be faster than a 4870X2 but its double the cost.
Click to expand...

Exactly how I feel. Performance for price is exactly what I'm concerned about. At $550, the 4870X2 is a monumentally better buy than the GTX280 was at it's initial launch price of $650. I'm probably going to a wait a month and see if any of the prices come down or at least if some overclocked models are released and then I'll proably pick one up.
 
Johnny78 said:
Exactly how I feel. Performance for price is exactly what I'm concerned about. At $550, the 4870X2 is a monumentally better buy than the GTX280 was at it's initial launch price of $650. I'm probably going to a wait a month and see if any of the prices come down or at least if some overclocked models are released and then I'll proably pick one up.
Click to expand...

Stop saying that. You sound logic is making it difficult for me to go shopping today!!! :(
 
HD4870 = 289.00 @ the Egg
HD4870X2 = 499.00 (list)
Cheapest NV GTX280 = 418.00, 389.00 after rebate @the Egg x 2 for sli = 778.00 (assuming the rebate x 2)

Cost multiplier between 4879 and 4870x2= 1.73 (approx) Based on that metric:
389.00 x 1.73= 672.00 possible cost for a GTX280X2

I think that the point is that the HD4870x2 is really freaking fast and should sell for less than 500.00, a feat that a GTX280x2 is going to have a hard time reproducing unless NV is able to REALLY reduce their costs. Based on the performance of the 4870, I would assume that NV would try to get the 280 price down to something closer to the 4870. Since they haven't yet done it (100.00 more for the 280), I'm inclined to think they can't do that until they do a die shrink.

Certainly, if your objective was to crown a "Fastest Possible Video Solution" you might want to compare Crossfire solutions to SLI solutions.
 
TheBuzzer said:
The new ati card sure is fast but it is a single card with built in crossfire to the 2 gpus. So they are comparing 2 gpus to a single gpu in most tests. They should be comparing to nvidia 280 sli. Maybe in a few months nvidia will realese 280 gx2 or something to also have two gpu on one card.

So what is faster, the 280 gpu or a 4870 gpu?
Click to expand...

The RV770 was never designed to be faster than the GTX280. It was their intention from the beginning to use a dual-GPU card to combat Nvidia's high-end cards. It doesn't really matter how they achieved that level of performance - one GPU, two GPUs, sixteen GPUs.. What matters is the price and performance. The card fits into a single slot (plus a spare one for the cooler, just like GTX280), it's about the same size as the GTX280 and the "internal corssfire" is invisble to the system - it works with any motherboard that has a PCI-E slot. I could pop one into my $50 micro-ATX motherboard if I wanted to (not that it would make much sense, but still).

You say the 4870X2 should be compared to two GTX280 cards in SLI?
The cheapest GTX280 I could find after a quick look costs $450. So that's $900 just for two cards, then maybe another $170 for a SLI-capable motherboard.. Total: $1070. The 4870X2 is launching at $550 and will likely drop closer to $500 in a month.

Now, you can find GTX260 boards for about $250.. If you already have a SLI capable motherboard and one hell of a PSU, that's a possible solution. It may not be faster than a 4870X2, though, seeing as a single 4870 often beats a single GTX260.
 
mikecoscia said:
Comparing cards at a given price point is what matters. Who cares if there are two GPUs or one on a card. Sure 280 in SLI would be faster than a 4870X2 but its double the cost.
Click to expand...

I care because SLI/CF is not as reliable a single card/GPU solution. I will never use SLI again, and have no interest in learning CF's unique forms of drama.
 
NVIDIA still has the fasted GPU by far.

The upcoming die shrink could bring a GTX290x2 or whatever.

I'm still partial to using just one GPU as SLI/Crossfire have problems with scaling on games that are not in the standard benchmark rotation.
 
PRIME1 said:
I'm still partial to using just one GPU as SLI/Crossfire have problems with scaling on games that are not in the standard benchmark rotation.
Click to expand...

It would be really interesting if some site benchmarked the 4870X2 in alot of less popular games..right now every site is using the same 5-10 games which ATI have obviously spent the most time optimizing their drivers for. I want to see 10 other games that aren't benchmarked as frequently, but are still played by a few people.

I will never use SLI again, and have no interest in learning CF's unique forms of drama.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that you don't want to use an ATI X2 card, because you've had a bad experience with two Nvidia cards.. That makes alot of sense.. There's no "drama" when using CF - at worst you get the performance of a single 4870, at best you get twice that performance...micro-stutter free.
 
ATI has won this round fair and square. The 4870x2 is by far the best choice, and the advantage of having a dual gpu card means quad crossfire, now those are some crysis benchmarks id like to see. :D , the only thing that will stop me from buying one are the drivers. Im having alot of trouble with them on my brothers 3850, and while they release updates frequently, they just dont seem to be really stable yet.
 
SpeedyVV said:
Stop saying that. You sound logic is making it difficult for me to go shopping today!!! :(
Click to expand...

The one thing I've really noticed from most of these reviews is that the 4870X2 really benefits those high-end gamers, namely the 30in LCD crowd. At 2560X1600 with AA and AF, the 4870X2 obliterates the GTX280 at almost every game. At lower resolutions, the benefit of getting this monster card is much more debatable.


And Monkey God, I agree I've never been a fan of multi Gpu setups either, however looking at the specs, the 4870X2 manages to produce a really healthy minimum framerate on a lot of games which should help counteract any issues with micro-stuttering.
 
I wish we could get off this single vs. multiple GPUs on one card thing. Right now ATI has the single fastest video card on the market. It doesn't matter how they got there, the fact is they are there now. I've had multiple GPU configurations in my systems for years and I've had dual GPU cards and single GPU cards. I've always thought of each and everyone of them as a single video card.

The 4870 X2 is one card. The Geforce GTX 280 is one card. The former card just happens to kick the latter cards' ass. I just can't understand why people act like you shouldn't compare the two cards because of their design differences.
 
Dan_D said:
I wish we could get off this single vs. multiple GPUs on one card thing. Right now ATI has the single fastest video card on the market. It doesn't matter how they got there, the fact is they are there now. I've had multiple GPU configurations in my systems for years and I've had dual GPU cards and single GPU cards. I've always thought of each and everyone of them as a single video card.

The 4870 X2 is one card. The Geforce GTX 280 is one card. The former card just happens to kick the latter cards' ass. I just can't understand why people act like you shouldn't compare the two cards because of their design differences.
Click to expand...

Im with Dan!:D
Comes in 1 box , 1 price, 1 slot, = 1 card
its the best solution for 30 inch LCD's and gamers in 2560x1600
 
Looking at the 2560x1600 numbers, my 1920x1200 LCD now looks like a simple task for the GPU.
 
Think of it the same way you think of Dual Core and Quad Core vs Single core....

Good work ATi!
 
Dan_D said:
I wish we could get off this single vs. multiple GPUs on one card thing. Right now ATI has the single fastest video card on the market. It doesn't matter how they got there, the fact is they are there now. I've had multiple GPU configurations in my systems for years and I've had dual GPU cards and single GPU cards. I've always thought of each and everyone of them as a single video card.

The 4870 X2 is one card. The Geforce GTX 280 is one card. The former card just happens to kick the latter cards' ass. I just can't understand why people act like you shouldn't compare the two cards because of their design differences.
Click to expand...

QFT... i dont give a shit whats on the card as long as it performs good. its just the nvidia people feeling gutted their cards are getting rinsed by the red team for first time in donkeys :D
 
Dan_D said:
I wish we could get off this single vs. multiple GPUs on one card thing. Right now ATI has the single fastest video card on the market. It doesn't matter how they got there, the fact is they are there now.
Click to expand...
Because it DOES matter. When the CF or SLI doesn't work right, you got half a card all of a sudden. When you dick around with custom profiles for the games and resintalling various driver versions to try to make it all work right, you waste time and get aggravated. That matters to ME. And to other people as well. You just want to call it one GPU so you can get on you fanboy soapbox. Is it one card? YES. Is it one GPU? NO.. Is it transparent to the user? NO. When they can make a multi GPU card that appears like one GPU to ALL Games and ALL drivers, so not even the user can tell the difference, then it wont matter.

I've had multiple GPU configurations in my systems for years and I've had dual GPU cards and single GPU cards. I've always thought of each and everyone of them as a single video card.

The 4870 X2 is one card. The Geforce GTX 280 is one card. The former card just happens to kick the latter cards' ass. I just can't understand why people act like you shouldn't compare the two cards because of their design differences.
Click to expand...
I dont give a shit about their design difference, I give shit about the driver implementation and the fact I have to screw around with profiles to make it work right.

The X2 is a kick ass card, but its not a single GPU solution, and for some people, that makes it a showstopper.
 
TheCreator said:
Think of it the same way you think of Dual Core and Quad Core vs Single core....

Good work ATi!
Click to expand...

Not really a fair comparison. Most of the time extra cores dont effect anything, but sometimes it does, especially with older games. The problems with SLI/CF are more common than software problems caused by more than one core.
 
JimmiG said:
It would be really interesting if some site benchmarked the 4870X2 in alot of less popular games..right now every site is using the same 5-10 games which ATI have obviously spent the most time optimizing their drivers for. I want to see 10 other games that aren't benchmarked as frequently, but are still played by a few people.
Click to expand...
What's the point of having 100 reviews sites if they all use the same games? I don't mind them using say the same top 5 new eye candy games, but then they could go off the track a bit and just grab 5 random newer games so that some variety exists.



There's no "drama" when using CF - at worst you get the performance of a single 4870, at best you get twice that performance...micro-stutter free.
Click to expand...
From what I read micro-stutter is not gone and until CF gets custom profiles it's a worse option than SLI.
 
TheBuzzer said:
The new ati card sure is fast but it is a single card with built in crossfire to the 2 gpus. So they are comparing 2 gpus to a single gpu in most tests. They should be comparing to nvidia 280 sli. Maybe in a few months nvidia will realese 280 gx2 or something to also have two gpu on one card.

So what is faster, the 280 gpu or a 4870 gpu?
Click to expand...
There ARE reviews comparing a single 4870x2 to GTX 280's in SLI, and the 4870x2 is still beating even that much of the time.

What will a 280gx2 do when the 4780x2 is already beating GTX 280's in SLI?
 
THe key here is that if ATI is keeping to its multi-GPU path, its drivers will be focused on providing multi-GPU scaling, and in the past year, CF has improved leaps and bounds

And the best part is, the 4870 1GB is enough to handle almost every game already, and certainly older games without profiles/driver support, and so even if its only utilizing 1GPU, it's still owning
 
nightwalker said:
QFT... i dont give a shit whats on the card as long as it performs good. its just the nvidia people feeling gutted their cards are getting rinsed by the red team for first time in donkeys :D
Click to expand...

Thats so right, it is easier to spot nv fan girls now --- to see wheter she cries over her barbie has one boob losing to the other having two. :D
 
Monkey God said:
Because it DOES matter. When the CF or SLI doesn't work right, you got half a card all of a sudden. When you dick around with custom profiles for the games and resintalling various driver versions to try to make it all work right, you waste time and get aggravated. That matters to ME. And to other people as well. You just want to call it one GPU so you can get on you fanboy soapbox. Is it one card? YES. Is it one GPU? NO.. Is it transparent to the user? NO. When they can make a multi GPU card that appears like one GPU to ALL Games and ALL drivers, so not even the user can tell the difference, then it wont matter.


I dont give a shit about their design difference, I give shit about the driver implementation and the fact I have to screw around with profiles to make it work right.

The X2 is a kick ass card, but its not a single GPU solution, and for some people, that makes it a showstopper.
Click to expand...

I've been using SLI and Crossfire based systems since they've been available. Except for very early on in the Geforce 6800Ultra days I've always been able to get some kind of performance improvement out of Crossfire and SLI. In regard to them I've had to change out drivers, and make control panel adjustments, but I've always gotten some kind of improvement. I've never been hit with only half card performance. The only time I've truly seen that is in regard to the Geforce 7900GX2/7950GX2 cards in Windows Vista. For the longest time SLI drivers in Vista on those cards didn't work at all. This is where NVIDIA is to blame and just one of the reasons why anyone who bought a 7950GX2 probably felt burned by their purchase.

nightwalker said:
QFT... i dont give a shit whats on the card as long as it performs good. its just the nvidia people feeling gutted their cards are getting rinsed by the red team for first time in donkeys :D
Click to expand...

I don't feel "gutted" about it. I knew what the risks were when I bought my Geforce GTX 280 cards was when I got them. I've been enjoying their performance since before the Radeon 4870 was available and while they certainly cost considerably more, they have performed as expected. Now a couple of months later we have the 4870 X2. As is always the case in this industry new hardware comes out all the time and supplants the old hardware in terms of supremecy. The point is that while I could have waited and done more due dilligence as far as research goes I wanted an upgrade for reasons of my own. (The 9800GX2's weren't all that despite what the benchmarks always said.) I got the best performing cards bar none at the time that they were released. Being an early adopter I know that occasionally I'll roll the dice and I'll get burned. I accept that as a consequence of being an early adopter.

If you aren't an early adopter then you just need to do your research and try to make the best purchases you can in regard to getting the most for your money (in which case the high end cards probably aren't for you anyway) to mitigate feelings of remorse concerning your purchases. Essentially if you feel slighted, you don't understand the "upgrade game" or you make poor choices concerning how you spend your money on said upgrades.
 
you guys crack me up. I dont know if those responses were directed to me or not, im no fanboy. if I buy another card anytime soon, it will either be a single 4870 or a 260, depending on current prices.

but to write off the two gpu thing as "totally irrelevant" just shows how ignorant you are.
 
PRIME1 said:
NVIDIA still has the fasted GPU by far.

The upcoming die shrink could bring a GTX290x2 or whatever.

I'm still partial to using just one GPU as SLI/Crossfire have problems with scaling on games that are not in the standard benchmark rotation.
Click to expand...

not likely even with a die shrink. they are going to have to loose that 512 bit bus before they can do that, just too much to put on a card. hell look how much they had to put on the 4870X2 to get it to work. And going the same route as the 9800GX2 is not going to work unless they turn it into a hair drier.

I do look for the die shrink to bring the cards back to being competitive though, clock speeds and cost wise. I am thinking that nvidia is not out of the game at all, even if they loose this cycle. In fact I am wondering about the 9600GT, for whatever reason they scale exceptionally well in SLI mode, I always thought it was really impressive,I think we may see some new GX2 from nvidia at some point
 
What I want to know is, why is this magical inter-GPU link disabled? They claim "the bandwidth is not needed yet", so what give us what you promised. Or is it more likely it's just broken and not ready for market.
 
PRIME1 said:
What's the point of having 100 reviews sites if they all use the same games? I don't mind them using say the same top 5 new eye candy games, but then they could go off the track a bit and just grab 5 random newer games so that some variety exists.




From what I read micro-stutter is not gone and until CF gets custom profiles it's a worse option than SLI.
Click to expand...


http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_4870_X2/

perfdollar.gif


That's the deal breaker for me, that and the rediculous power requirment. This is from a Pro-ATi site as well.
 
spadefoot said:
HD4870 = 289.00 @ the Egg
HD4870X2 = 499.00 (list)
Cheapest NV GTX280 = 418.00, 389.00 after rebate @the Egg x 2 for sli = 778.00 (assuming the rebate x 2)

Cost multiplier between 4879 and 4870x2= 1.73 (approx) Based on that metric:
389.00 x 1.73= 672.00 possible cost for a GTX280X2
Click to expand...
the 4870x2 list price is $549 not $499
 
vick1000 said:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_4870_X2/

<Performance / Dollar chart>

That's the deal breaker for me, that and the rediculous power requirment. This is from a Pro-ATi site as well.
Click to expand...

ATI feel comfortable selling the card at a premium because it beats Nvidia's high-end card by a wide marigin. It has always been like that..The faster the card is, the more of a premium you pay.. Guess why I got a 4850? ;)
Look forward to the 4850X2, though.. At $400 and with a lower power requirement it might be even more interesting than the 4870X2.
 
vick1000 said:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_4870_X2/

That's the deal breaker for me, that and the rediculous power requirment. This is from a Pro-ATi site as well.
Click to expand...

that really should not be a surprise, there has always been a big price hike for the performance king. what is surprising is the amount of hardware that you get for the price though. all the same I am thinking that I will upgrade to a pair of 4850 or the 4850X2 rather then the 4870X2 based on these results. I need to check the H review as well
 
JimmiG said:
ATI feel comfortable selling the card at a premium because it beats Nvidia's high-end card by a wide marigin. It has always been like that..The faster the card is, the more of a premium you pay.. Guess why I got a 4850? ;)
Look forward to the 4850X2, though.. At $400 and with a lower power requirement it might be even more interesting than the 4870X2.
Click to expand...

LOL, double post from different users.
 
Dan_D said:
I wish we could get off this single vs. multiple GPUs on one card thing. Right now ATI has the single fastest video card on the market. It doesn't matter how they got there, the fact is they are there now. I've had multiple GPU configurations in my systems for years and I've had dual GPU cards and single GPU cards. I've always thought of each and everyone of them as a single video card.

The 4870 X2 is one card. The Geforce GTX 280 is one card. The former card just happens to kick the latter cards' ass. I just can't understand why people act like you shouldn't compare the two cards because of their design differences.
Click to expand...

If you are a Nvidia-only guy then i would think you tend to use certain arguments to make you feel better than Nvidia is now officially number 2.

single vs. multiple GPUs
MicroStuttering
Physx
Drivers ETC

anything to cloud that fact that Nvidia is number 2.
 
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