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NVIDIA Drivers Remove GPU Overclocking From Laptops With Maxwell Based GPUs?

Mr. Fox Vs. CUG

FoxBadgerCussing.gif
 
Let's be clear about some things:
(1) NDA means NDA, so that's the end of that discussion
(2) I am under no compulsion to support my comments... this is the internet
(3) I absolutely do not care if who agrees or disagrees with my statements... this is the internet
(4) Idiots that can break anything they touch are not limited to laptops... plenty of imbeciles ruin desktops (and other things) by being stupid and clumsy. Overclocking is not high on the list of causes for user-induced damage. Laptops are no more susceptible to user-induced damage than desktops, but there may be a higher prevalence of idiots that own them.
 
Mr. Fox said:
Let's be clear about some things:
(1) NDA means NDA, so that's the end of that discussion
(2) I am under no compulsion to support my comments... this is the internet
(3) I absolutely do not care if who agrees or disagrees with my statements... this is the internet
(4) Idiots that can break anything they touch are not limited to laptops... plenty of imbeciles ruin desktops (and other things) by being stupid and clumsy. Overclocking is not high on the list of causes for user-induced damage. Laptops are no more susceptible to user-induced damage than desktops, but there may be a higher prevalence of idiots that own them.
Click to expand...

Wow. Great introduction to our forums. We love it when the noobies get all uppity.

But, based on points 1 - 4, why did you even bother posting?
 
Uppity? OK, whatever, LOL. ;)

Primarily, for the same reasons you posted your opinion in rebuttal to my comments. That's what people in forums do. Being new to this forum doesn't categorize my engagement uppity any more than someone that has been cruising these threads for years. Nor does it make my experience as an overclocking enthusiast less valid.

Additionally, because of the prevalence of misinformed desktop owners that wrongly believe laptops cannot not be overclocked and think they should somehow be exempted from NVIDIA's stupidity.

This isn't my home turf. The foul reception laptop enthusiasts receive in may venues creates division and animosity where none should exist. That's a bad reflection on the members of any community. Overclockers should stick together regardless of what their preferred form factor happens to be. It seems that ignorance of technology is the driving force behind it. Criticizing what one has no direct knowledge of because it is a popular myth is a character flaw. This last paragraph is not a response to you or this community, just a recant of what my experience has been attempting to engage in many technology forums with nasty masses that carry a chip on the shoulder, and how that relates to the topic of this thread and how NVIDIA is screwing a select group of end users.
 
You're missing the point. You came in, 6 days old with no history or earned credibility to speak of, and simply asked us to take your word for something, hiding behind some ephemeral NDA. Then, when pressed, you responded with a bunch of snark (points 1-4).

I'm not sure what you expected.

I mean, look. your string of massively expensive, AND MASSIVE 18" laptops is impressive and all, but I'm not sure you appreciate how many laptops have these GPUs in them and BEFORE OCing have thermal issues (MSI Ghost for one, and there are MANY more). Sure, your 18" ALienwares and HUGE Eurocom:
m224.jpg

will have adequate cooling. But they're monsters, and niche monsters at that. To base your opinion on that kind of machine is silly. And to expect folks in an established community to take you at your unsubstantiated word is worse.
 
For NVIDIA to carte blanche blanche block overclocking for all machine is messed up and unethical. To your point, I have huge, expensive, desktop performance laptops. I am incensed by NVIDIA's underhanded and overreaching actions that unilaterally strip me of my property ownership rights. Their excuse is lame and inaccurate because it categorizes my machines in the same as an inexpensive piece of junk with an MXM or BGA GPU.

If NVIDIA did that because some desktops are not assembled with the care and cooling needed to avoid thermal issues, or use a form factor that NVIDIA does not approve of, or because some desktop owners are stupid, the outcry would be deafening.

You're also missing the point. I am not attempting to earn credibility in this community. I don't need it, and don't care. I am expressing my opinions and experience in relation to a news article. That's the extent of it. End of discussion.
 
Also, nobody said that the same isn't done on other non-laptop platforms. Of course it is. I'm sure EVERY company that puts out a consumer product is plagued with false warranty claims. Sometimes some of them may even deserve it to a degree. There is plenty of grey area to go around here. HOWEVER, that doesn't give a laptop OEM/vendor/chipset company/etc. any less reason to want to prevent it. Aside from that, it is a LOT more difficult to do the same scale of damage to a desktop. For one, the components are modular. You fry a CPU, you're more likely to just buy a new one because it's not soldered to the board. Cooling is much better even on your AVERAGE desktop. That's not to say there aren't enthusiast laptops that don't have decent cooling. However, the average consumer that this sort of limitation is targeted toward does not own one of these.

I don't agree with blanket policies, but I entirely understand the motivation behind them.

I think we even agree in a lot of ways. I'm not defending a corporation over some cool hobbyists that just want to tweak their hardware. I get it. However, there's a lot of blind commenting in this thread that seems to imply that many people don't understand why they'd do something like this.

All I'm saying is that I DO understand why they're doing this, it makes perfect sense when you have to factor in the LCD. It may suck, but there's a valid reason behind it.
 
Mr. Fox said:
For NVIDIA to carte blanche blanche block overclocking for all machine is messed up and unethical. To your point, I have huge, expensive, desktop performance laptops. I am incensed by NVIDIA's underhanded and overreaching actions that unilaterally strip me of my property ownership rights. Their excuse is lame and inaccurate because it categorizes my machines in the same as an inexpensive piece of junk with an MXM or BGA GPU.
Click to expand...
You have no ownership rights in the driver for a GPU. Pure and simple.
Also, it is not unethical for them to close a hole they inadvertently left in their driver. Nvidia didn't promise you GPU overclocking, and I suspect no retailers did either.

Mr. Fox said:
You're also missing the point. I am not attempting to earn credibility in this community. I don't need it, and don't care. I am expressing my opinions and experience in relation to a news article. That's the extent of it. End of discussion.
Click to expand...

I didn't say you were TRYING to earn anything. But if you think we're going to take your unsubstantiated and "NDA"-cloaked word for it, you're in for a shock. And if you DON'T expect us to, WHY THE HELL DID YOU POST?
 
Why did I post? My goodness, what a dense fellow.

If it is not already obvious, for the same reasons everyone else is posting against it. NVIDIA, like many large corporations, only responds to bad publicity and loss of revenue as a result of bad business decisions. Their motivations are not driven by a customer-centric view of their business.

I am not here for an exchange of personal views on the subject or for the purpose of social engagement. My motivation, like NVIDIA's, is completely centered on what I, and other consumers with like interests, deserve: freedom to operate our personal property without interference from NVIDIA. We did not change anything mid-stream. NVIDIA did, and they should expect a ton of flack for it. I'm not going to just accept it like a good little fanboy and move for the same reason a desktop GPU enthusiast would not.

If they decide to treat desktop GPU owners in the same manner at some point, perhaps everyone will understand. Granted, there will still be a group of dummies that think nobody should be able to overclock their desktop GPU as well and would support NVIDIA's decision there as well.
 
Mr. Fox said:
If they decide to treat desktop GPU owners in the same manner at some point, perhaps everyone will understand. Granted, there will still be a group of dummies that think nobody should be able to overclock their desktop GPU as well and would support NVIDIA's decision there as well.
Click to expand...

There will always be groups of dummies on both sides of the argument.

There IS a distinction between laptops and desktops though. A pretty big one. Performance oriented or not, there is still a lot more concern for expensive collateral damage on a laptop. If you market a high-end enthusiast GPU to a bunch of enthusiasts (because that's more or less what you have to be to buy something like that) I think you have to assume that there are going to be some people tweaking the hardware, and you take that into consideration.

When you're mass-marketing a mobile chipset that could be used in anything from a $500 laptop up to something a bit more enthusiast level, you can't guarantee a 2-slot cooling solution as the bare minimum, have the CPU sitting 2 inches to one side, the storage 2 inches the other direction, all smashed into a tiny plastic enclosure, then I think you have more to worry about. You also have the OEM on your back, as well as possibly the motherboard and CPU manufacturers telling you to keep their stuff cool.

Like it or not there is more to consider on a mobile platform. It is VERY different. I don't think we'll see the same thing on the desktop side ever. It's not all rolled into one thermally-teetering package the same way. I think this is less about Nvidia worrying about their own chips, and more about OEMs worrying about the surrounding hardware, power supplies, inadequate cooling, and passing this on in the form of pressure on Nvidia. I'm not apologizing for Nvidia. Far from it, but if you want to talk about sound business decisions, your side of things won't even enter their minds. They're about keeping THEIR customers happy, which are the OEMs. That's the "sound business decision".

And, for you, that sucks. I sympathize because obviously you've got the hardware and knowledge (I assume) to do this right, and technically should have the freedom to do it. That's not a real-world scenario for laptop OEMs, or Nvidia by proxy though.
 
Mr. Fox said:
Assumptions are dangerous.
Click to expand...

Nope, they're funny because...

I build my extreme systems from components, both laptops and desktops.
Click to expand...

Sure you do. There's tons of industry-standard laptop motherboards out there, a wide variety of industry standard laptop cases, and laptop cooling solutions that you can mix and match at your whim and fancy. Or is there because you go on to say...

Using your logic, since you did not make your own CPU, GPU and motherboard, we are on a level playing field.
Click to expand...

Which implies that you're indeed just buying things off the shelf like everyone else (or me since I'm awesome that way) and the above claim about building laptops that are "extreme systems from components" is invented in the same non-reality in which you claim to know so much you can't talk about due to a mysterious NDA.

In addition to that, also no different than desktops, they don't overclock themselves.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that, Captain Obvious. What's more obvious is the swift anger by which you replied to my post making it clear that you didn't bother to think anything you typed through and one can then infer that my calling out your attempt at show and tell hit a soft spot.

Now that I have addressed your technical concerns, seek counseling for your attitude and everything will be as it should be, LOL. Have a nice life.
Click to expand...

Actually, there was nothing technical or even much that was rooted in reality in your post. I also didn't have technical concerns since I was pointing out bragging and show-boating as silly and had no concerns you could possibly have addressed. I will have a nice life though so thanks for thinking about it. :)
 
So I have a question for all you knowledgeable experts: if this was truly done for "warranty reasons" and to "protect users against their own stupidity", then why did nVidia

a) only disable this "bug" some 10+ years later and
b) limit this to the mobile 900M series only?

Laptop GPUs were overclockable for as long as I can remember, it's not a feature that was introduced say last year and absued heavily and then suddenly OEMs saw a surge in warranty claims.

And before anyone rushes in to tell me "because the 900M mobile GPUs run much hotter and are much more prone to overheating", please do some research.
 
@J3RK - your comments are logical, and yes, NVIDIA's customers are the OEMs and not end users. NVIDIA has never cared about end users, and now is no exception. The only thing I would add is they need to care about their reputation.

If they were taking the right approach they would give direction to the OEMs on how to interfere with overclocking on the models that are not robust enough to support it. Those tools exist and are already being used by some OEMs. Ironically, Alienware has become one of the problem OEMs because their new product line went from industry-leading to sucky BGA garbage. They have implemented blocking tactics, including artificial power handling limitations that shut the machines down. If Alienware can do it, then the lesser OEM members of the gamer-boy Ultrabook-makers club can do the same thing.

NVIDIA doing it at the driver level underscores the fact that they don't care about end users, and it's the lazy route to throw the baby out with the bath water. Their actions are alienating loyal customers and I will do whatever I can to facilitate the negative PR damage because their actions are deplorable. NVIDIA does not need to warranty anything for anyone, but their clock-blocking actions also interfere with product functionality and marketing of some of their "OEM partners" that sell competent products.

In the same manner that we have already circumvented system BIOS and vBIOS limitations that interfere with overclocking, their ridiculous clock-blocking driver tactics will be circumvented, but we would not have to if the OEMs that slop together junky laptops for school kids did things the right way. The OEMs that are worried about paying for user induced damage under warranty need to take steps to ensure their interests are protected or stop selling gimped gamer-boy garbage. The OEMs that build real high performance laptops market them as overclockable and some even have factory overclocked options.
 
How the hell should we know Nvidia's reasoning for it? Every single post in this thread is pure speculation until proven otherwise, based upon the official word from Nvidia.

Maybe Nvidia just didn't want to deal with the potential legal issues of being responsible for their components accidentally frying a bunch of laptops. Maybe it's for performance reasons. Maybe it's for safety reasons. We simply do not know.

I could see it being for legal reasons. In this day and age, everyone is lawsuit happy, and maybe Nvidia is just trying to watch their back.
 
I've stated that my comments are speculation, and educated guesses based on similar (but not identical) professional experience. For all I know they just hate you. :D However, business decisions with tech companies are heavily influenced by support costs in the extreme. I've experienced this first hand, in meetings to discuss this very type of thing. I'm not saying it's the only reason, or even the definitely reason in this case, but it is VERY probable.
 
Mr. Fox said:
@J3RK - your comments are logical, and yes, NVIDIA's customers are the OEMs and not end users. NVIDIA has never cared about end users, and now is no exception. The only thing I would add is they need to care about their reputation.
Click to expand...

I agree, that it is a fairly lazy approach to blanket everything. I don't agree with this approach either. However it is pretty much the standard way of doing things for large companies. Partially because it's the easy way, and partially because the alternative is in reality a lot of additional overhead. In many cases, (like possibly this one, we don't know for sure) it could come from an outside influence. The OEMs themselves may have asked for this.
 
n=1 said:
So I have a question for all you knowledgeable experts: if this was truly done for "warranty reasons" and to "protect users against their own stupidity", then why did nVidia

a) only disable this "bug" some 10+ years later and
b) limit this to the mobile 900M series only?
Click to expand...

It may be because OEMs pressured them. Perhaps the OEMs didn't even have enough data on their returns, service, and support to know what was happening for this long. As far as limiting it to the new chips, that is likely what's going into their current product lines.

This is still speculation. I'm just trying to provide some ideas for why this could be the case.
 
In all my years of overclocking high-end laptops with unlocked CPUs, modded system BIOS and MXM cards with modded vBIOS I have never, ever, not even once seen a "friend laptop" from overclocking. I push these systems way beyond anything contemplated, including using a mod with dual 330W AC adapters (double their rated capacity) and not once has any system been damaged by my overclocking. As a member of a community with others that do the same, nobody I can identify has experienced this. I see it as a myth and a displaced, ludicrous concern on NVIDIA's part, not to mention the OEMs. I can identify no basis for it. Mine would have been among the first to blow apart because of how hard I push them.

I have seen laptop gamers' hardware damaged by lack of maintenance. By that I mean neglect, such as excessive dust, food particles, and lint build-up in fans and heat sink radiators, and not recognizing when thermal paste and pads need to be replaced.

So, all this worry and speculation about "fried laptops" by people that don't overclock laptops and no examples from that do it at an extreme level is both humorous and frustrating. Humorous because people speak as an authority on a topic they are ignorant of, and frustrating because that flawed mentality is what NVIDIA is using as their reason, excuse, or basis for covering up something they don't want us to know about.
 
Sorry, noobs here don't have any post edit button (at least not one that I can see). I meant "FRIED" not "friend" LOL.
 
One example of what OEMs are doing to limit overclocking further negates any concern on NVIDIA's part. Some are using inadequate AC adapters. As soon as you start overclocking and the power draw exceeds the capacity of the power source, they simply shut off. They don't have an opportunity to get hot because they don't stay turned on long enough under load for that to occur.
 
With all of the Chicken Little sky-is-falling idiots focusing on "green" (not NVIDIA green) because the world is going to stop turning and the corner cutting in the name of "efficiency" this may be a sad glimpse into our future. Hopefully, it won't turn out as pathetic as they would like it to. SFF desktops are becoming more popular among wimps and console converts, so the thin and light brain cancer is metastasizing and spreading into desktop world, too. If they keep dumbing down the machines, I suppose something has to give. For the ODMs and OEMs it's a cash cow... sell overpriced crap, pretend it's awesome, gimp the performance to make the next "upgrade" nothing more than a rebrand with a firmware tweak, and laugh all the way to the bank. And, unfortunately, there are plenty of Kool-Aid drinkers that are OK with it. They vote with their wallet and validate the idiocy.
 
Mr. Fox said:
With all of the Chicken Little sky-is-falling idiots focusing on "green" (not NVIDIA green) because the world is going to stop turning and the corner cutting in the name of "efficiency" this may be a sad glimpse into our future. Hopefully, it won't turn out as pathetic as they would like it to. SFF desktops are becoming more popular among wimps and console converts, so the thin and light brain cancer is metastasizing and spreading into desktop world, too. If they keep dumbing down the machines, I suppose something has to give. For the ODMs and OEMs it's a cash cow... sell overpriced crap, pretend it's awesome, gimp the performance to make the next "upgrade" nothing more than a rebrand with a firmware tweak, and laugh all the way to the bank. And, unfortunately, there are plenty of Kool-Aid drinkers that are OK with it. They vote with their wallet and validate the idiocy.
Click to expand...

Wimps? Maybe they are just buying what they need. You know not everyone games, right?
 
Mr. Fox said:
If they decide to treat desktop GPU owners in the same manner at some point, perhaps everyone will understand. Granted, there will still be a group of dummies that think nobody should be able to overclock their desktop GPU as well and would support NVIDIA's decision there as well.
Click to expand...
Since you've raised this claim more than once it's clear that you are simply ignorant to the fact that this is done regularly to desktop users. That's why desktop users have to figure out ways to circumvent voltage locks and sometimes flash custom firmwares.

Also, no one argued that laptop GPU's couldn't be overclocked, you constructed that strawman all on your own.
 
Now, now, no need to be overly sensitive. This is what is known as hyperbole. Certainly not everyone that likes wimpy machines is a wimp. The intent is to drive a point and cause people to think and pay attention to the big picture, not to get anyone wound up or defensive. I have no problem with people choosing to spend less on something less if that is all they want or need. The part we should be concerned about is the trend toward mediocrity and a lower level of performance and quality being the only thing left for everyone, regardless of their personal preferences.

Desktop owners have many of the same hurdles to jump as laptop owners. Gimping certainly isn't restricted to laptops, but it is worse... especially with respect to system BIOS restrictions. But yes, we all have to fight the similar battles as performance enthusiasts.

I'm surprised to find such an argumentative bunch in an enthusiast forum. Treating newcomers as a virtual piñata is a great way to maintain status quo. It has been interesting to see so much advocacy for the inappropriate behavior of the Jolly Green Giant in a place where one would expect the opposite where gimping and cheating the public is concerned.
 
Mr. Fox said:
I'm surprised to find such an argumentative bunch in an enthusiast forum. Treating newcomers as a virtual piñata is a great way to maintain status quo.
Click to expand...
If you step into a room and you find yourself surrounded by a "bunch" of argumentative people, the problem is more likely to be the person in the middle of the bunch and not the bunch
 
mope54 said:
Also, no one argued that laptop GPU's couldn't be overclocked, you constructed that strawman all on your own.
Click to expand...
Actually, every day I prove the exact opposite to be true. The problem is the flawed mentality that they shouldn't be overclocked.

mope54 said:
If you step into a room and you find yourself surrounded by a "bunch" of argumentative people, the problem is more likely to be the person in the middle of the bunch and not the bunch
Click to expand...
Thanks for proving the point with that response, LOL. Awesome timing, too. Good job on missing the opportunity to demonstrate that the problem does not apply to you. +1 ;)

Desktop enthusiast communities almost always treat laptop enthusiasts like second class citizens. I don't know if they feel threatened, hate what they don't understand, or what. What most fail to realize is that we love all machines that are capable of delivering extreme performance and many of us are overclocking beast desktops right along side our portable overclocked banshees.
 
quit acting like a martyr. you're acting like a dick in this thread. the reaction you're getting has nothing to do with you choosing to overclock laptops or because desktop users are threatened by you. it's your attitude that is rubbing people the wrong way.
 
Hmm, nice... pot is calling the kettle black, LOL.

Apparently, you think being a dick is a one-way street. If you actually look at the posts in response to my comments with an open mind you will see that is inaccurate. In fact, the only entity I have acted like a dick toward is NVIDIA for their idiotic position, but the fanboi following coming to their defense and trying to win arguments that serve no purpose has been amusing moreso than it has been disturbing. If and when they bring this vile business decision to desktop GPUs (probably won't happen, but it might) I will be eager to see the reactions that it solicits from the people that thought it was OK to screw people simply because they have MXM modules.
 
Well well, nVidia may have actually caved to pressure this time:

Peter S@nVidia said:
As you know, we are constantly tuning and optimizing the performance of your GeForce PC.

We obsess over every possible optimization so that you can enjoy a perfectly stable machine that balances game, thermal, power, and acoustic performance.

Still, many of you enjoy pushing the system even further with overclocking.

Our recent driver update disabled overclocking on some GTX notebooks. We heard from many of you that you would like this feature enabled again. So, we will again be enabling overclocking in our upcoming driver release next month for those affected notebooks.

If you are eager to regain this capability right away, you can also revert back to 344.75.
Click to expand...

Hopefully it's just not lip service from Peter Sierant again, we'll see.
 
mope54 said:
Since you've raised this claim more than once it's clear that you are simply ignorant to the fact that this is done regularly to desktop users. That's why desktop users have to figure out ways to circumvent voltage locks and sometimes flash custom firmwares.

Also, no one argued that laptop GPU's couldn't be overclocked, you constructed that strawman all on your own.
Click to expand...

Yes but all laptop GPUs come voltage locked and with an additional +135 limit on the core, something the desktop cards don't have to deal with (the +135 limit that is).

And besides we're talking blocking ALL software overclocking period. So the only way to overclock would be to flash bioses back and forth. Not even comparable to the situation on desktops.

But anyway all this might me moot since nVidia has apparently reversed their stance if PeterS's PSA is to be believed.
 
Mr. Fox said:
With all of the Chicken Little sky-is-falling idiots focusing on "green" (not NVIDIA green) because the world is going to stop turning and the corner cutting in the name of "efficiency" this may be a sad glimpse into our future. Hopefully, it won't turn out as pathetic as they would like it to. SFF desktops are becoming more popular among wimps and console converts, so the thin and light brain cancer is metastasizing and spreading into desktop world, too. If they keep dumbing down the machines, I suppose something has to give. For the ODMs and OEMs it's a cash cow... sell overpriced crap, pretend it's awesome, gimp the performance to make the next "upgrade" nothing more than a rebrand with a firmware tweak, and laugh all the way to the bank. And, unfortunately, there are plenty of Kool-Aid drinkers that are OK with it. They vote with their wallet and validate the idiocy.
Click to expand...

Christ on a cracker, you ARE full of yourself, aren't you. My "wimpy" SFF system can run any game on the market perfectly well, thank you very much. That's all I care about. And I'm not even overclocking it yet. I simply don't need to. Hell, from power off, to a fully useable desktop is under 10 seconds. Once the software requirements increase, and I need more power, I'll be able to raise the bar significantly with this "wimpy" equipment.
 
Ruoh said:
Christ on a cracker, you ARE full of yourself, aren't you. My "wimpy" SFF system can run any game on the market perfectly well, thank you very much. That's all I care about. And I'm not even overclocking it yet. I simply don't need to. Hell, from power off, to a fully useable desktop is under 10 seconds. Once the software requirements increase, and I need more power, I'll be able to raise the bar significantly with this "wimpy" equipment.
Click to expand...

LOL, selective reading issues? See below? I apologize if you were offended by the hyperbole. That wasn't my intent. I am happy that you are happy with your SFF. Life is good.

Mr. Fox said:
Now, now, no need to be overly sensitive. This is what is known as hyperbole. Certainly not everyone that likes wimpy machines is a wimp. The intent is to drive a point and cause people to think and pay attention to the big picture, not to get anyone wound up or defensive. I have no problem with people choosing to spend less on something less if that is all they want or need. The part we should be concerned about is the trend toward mediocrity and a lower level of performance and quality being the only thing left for everyone, regardless of their personal preferences.
Click to expand...
 
n=1 said:
Well well, nVidia may have actually caved to pressure this time:

Hopefully it's just not lip service from Peter Sierant again, we'll see.
Click to expand...
Awesome... glad they paid attention and are doing the right thing. I will give of doubt that it's not just lies to calm the crowd and believe it until they give us a reason to call them out for being liars. This is the closest thing we will see to an admission that they made a bad decision and I am OK with it. Whether it was for politics, P.R. and optics or preserving their reputation doesn't matter as long as it doesn't happen again. If we got what we wanted, nothing else matters in the grand scheme of things.
 
See? Nvidia listens to its customers. They listened and fixed the problem they definitely didn't create. Soooo customer focused.

TG4L
 
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