NVIDIA Controls AIB Launch and Driver Distribution @ [H]

Derangel said:
No, not they do not. Apple is still much worse. Nvidia seems like it wants to be Apple, but they still have a ways to go to reach that level of asshattery.
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Please inform me as to just how Apple is worse than nVidia?
 
It is really sad what nVidia did with the NDA. Even if you ask "journalists" on their reviews, if they are allowed to do more benchmarks and testing after the pre release benchmark phase, they can not tell you because the NDA prevents them to say anything. My personal guess is, there is going to be another 3DMark thing happening during the benchmarks before release thanks to the drivers and for the consumer it will look different. And it would not be the first time at all, but now thanks to the NDA, everyone who signed is not allowed to talk about it.
 
Stimpy88 said:
Please inform me as to just how Apple is worse than nVidia?
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Nvidia has never told someone they can't get a graphics card repaired because they hadn't bothered to certify 'trusted" repair shops to work on a new product and that you were not allowed to replace something yourself because only certified shops could get those parts. Nvidia never blamed customers, repeatedly, for their own hardware design faults. The 970 debacle pales in comparison to Apple hardware issues over the years the Apple would refuse to acknowledge or offer free repairs on.

OH! Also, Nvidia has never tried to sue people for fixing their products because they 'weren't certified to do so".
 
MasterGreenbolt said:
It is really sad what nVidia did with the NDA. Even if you ask "journalists" on their reviews, if they are allowed to do more benchmarks and testing after the pre release benchmark phase, they can not tell you because the NDA prevents them to say anything. My personal guess is, there is going to be another 3DMark thing happening during the benchmarks before release thanks to the drivers and for the consumer it will look different. And it would not be the first time at all, but now thanks to the NDA, everyone who signed is not allowed to talk about it.
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No no no! This NDA does not really impact "reviewers" in my opinion. The NDA does not keep you from running game testing and benchmarks till your heart's content. This NDA was put in place to muzzle people that want to be tech journalist and cover NVIDIA. The fact is, once you sign that NDA, many of your avenues of public discussion of NVIDIA policy and business tactics could be cut off, and it very much opens you up to litigation. This NDA in no way truly impacts card reviewers....unless they allow it to.
 
Stimpy88 said:
Please inform me as to just how Apple is worse than nVidia?
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While I'm certainly not 100% conversant with the inside of Nvidia's business, I doubt that you'd find a lot of child labour and slave-like work conditions there. Apple, on the other had, has firmly proved that they couldn't give a shit how the people further down the production chain are being exploited. It's not as if I follow these things closely, but I'm fairly sure it's well over ten years since the issue was first raised and yet they still haven't done anything really substantive to change things.

Every time a new issue is uncovered it's the same old rigmarole: starting with blank denial, gradually moving to grudging admission of the facts, lots of pointing to their guidelines, policies, all the great work they do to abolish said issues and promises to do everything under the sun to eradicate them this time. It's a schpiel they've grown quite good at, given that they have to repeat it roughly once a year when it's uncovered that the problems are still present and that little or nothing has been done to tackle them.

Pardon the OT, but he did ask...
 
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The other interesting point here is how nV's control over drivers in this way might be affecting AIBs. If I recall, AIBs get "base" drivers from nV to work on relatively early. After tweaking for their specific models, they send the tweaked driver back to nV for final certification. If nV is also withholding drivers from AIBs until review day (Sept 14th), that means they only have virtually no time at all to prep and cert their drivers.

This, or I may very well be reading into things and AIBs are still getting drivers early to work on (although I'm sure nV would also see this as a leak risk)
 
harmattan said:
The other interesting point here is how nV's control over drivers in this way might be affecting AIBs. If I recall, AIBs get "base" drivers from nV to work on relatively early. After tweaking for their specific models, they send the tweaked driver back to nV for final certification. If nV is also withholding drivers from AIBs until review day (Sept 14th), that means they only have virtually no time at all to prep and cert their drivers.

This, or I may very well be reading into things and AIBs are still getting drivers early to work on (although I'm sure nV would also see this as a leak risk)
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As long as I have been doing this, AIBs are always waiting on "launch drivers," just the same as the reviewers. It is easier to get unreleased hardware than it is to get a solid driver that you know you can review with out of China. If I told you I had access to 2080 hardware in the next 7 days, but no driver, would you believe me? Hardware without a solid release driver is worthless for delivering a review to our readers. That was the whole point of my statement in the article......"Good job, NVIDIA, good job. That is exerting excellent control."
 
Dwayne said:
GN is a reputable review and hardware site. My point is that lawyers opinions differ on the NDA, as GN took the time back in June to look into it. I imagine that an NDA from AMD is pretty standard and vague as well. Not that I have seen one, I just can't imagine NDAs to be all that different.
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Yes, a generic reviews/news Youtube channel that are a dime a dozen. They don't provide anything of value that would be affected by this NDA.

You keep imagining, but it's just your imagination until proven otherwise.
 
Belfaborac said:
While I'm certainly not 100% conversant with the inside of Nvidia's business, I doubt that you'd find a lot of child labour and slave-like work conditions there. Apple, on the other had, has firmly proved that they couldn't give a shit how the people further down the production chain are being exploited. It's not as if I follow these things closely, but I'm fairly sure it's well over ten years since the issue was first raised and yet they still haven't done anything really substantive to change things.

Every time a new issue is uncovered it's the same old rigmarole: starting with blank denial, gradually moving to grudging admission of the facts, lots of pointing to their guidelines, policies, all the great work they do to abolish said issues and promises to do everything under the sun to eradicate them this time. It's a schpiel they've grown quite good at, given that they have to repeat it roughly once a year when it's uncovered that the problems are still present and that little or nothing has been done to tackle them.

Pardon the OT, but he did ask...
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And people still buy there product. People know and don't really care. Just as long as they can get the product they want!
 
msshammy said:
Oh Nvidia.. smh.. I don't care what agreements and hoops you're jumping through to keep this on lock down. It's the internet lol.

I really .. really hope AMD is just screwing with everybody and waiting to see Nvidia's offerings first. Maybe not, who knows? Everybody seems to think that Nvidia has a "no competition, no fear" arrogance to them atm. I disagree. Seems to me like they may be a bit worried. Hell, I would be. Look what's happening to Intel atm.. If I was one of the only other competitions for AMD I would be a bit scared myself.
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Well at least i'm not going to say that they are worried about AMD. But more like they never underestimate what surprise AMD can bring. But because of this it is also harder for AMD to catch nvidia off guard.
 
Nice one Kyle , shows you can't be bought with free review samples like Toms , watched the gamers nexus tear-apart of their 'just buy it' article and thought shit .. where do you go now to get a unbiased review ? Don't think i'll bother with the other reviews, the H one will do me just fine - even if its after the 'official' reviews.
 
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Dwayne said:
GN is a reputable review and hardware site. My point is that lawyers opinions differ on the NDA, as GN took the time back in June to look into it. I imagine that an NDA from AMD is pretty standard and vague as well. Not that I have seen one, I just can't imagine NDAs to be all that different.
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Except one thing, the Lawyer GN used had no experience in this area of law. Whereas Kyle's Lawyer has.

And Kyle has answered this already. This NDA is different and his Lawyer has advised him not to sign.
 
Derangel said:
No, not they do not. Apple is still much worse. Nvidia seems like it wants to be Apple, but they still have a ways to go to reach that level of asshattery.
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NVIDIA's CEO is a known Apple fan, and has gone on the record in an interview that his household uses and enjoys their products. I wish I had the source for Huang saying that, but it would certainly explain their behavior if they are taking pages from Apple's book.

I already avoid Apple products like the plague. It seems I'll be avoiding the RTX cards like an iPhone X as well.
 
Im assuming it would work like this.

NV drafts up another GPP style program, informs all of its NDA signed outlets of it, now they cannot publish anything about it, even if they hear it from other sources. Effectively muting any way of discussing nvidia practices that they don't want made public .
 
jnemesh said:
This just keeps getting better and better! What the F*** are they so afraid of? This BS only lasts until the cards hit retail, though, and THEN the s*** will REALLY hit the fan! They can't hide sub-par performance forever! EVENTUALLY, when they start to ship, people will learn EXACTLY how these cards perform, and if their actions are any indication, I expect those reviews to be brutal indeed!
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This is what's confusing about this. Either way, people will find out very quickly upon release how these cards perform so why go to such extreme measures to block the information? What are they seriously afraid of? I personally doubt the performance will be much better than my 1080ti so I don't care about this cycle of release, but something is very fishy here.
 
bill_d said:
Eventually Nvidia will require us to sign a NDA to get drivers for cards we buy
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I was thinking more like they will charge us for drivers when new ones are released. Oh you want the latest and greatest driver for your games? Pay us 15 bucks and get it a week before everyone else. (oh and sign the NDA so it the driver blows you can't talk about it.)
 
zamardii12 said:
This is what's confusing about this. Either way, people will find out very quickly upon release how these cards perform so why go to such extreme measures to block the information? What are they seriously afraid of? I personally doubt the performance will be much better than my 1080ti so I don't care about this cycle of release, but something is very fishy here.
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I mean, the obvious answer is so that people can't really cancel their preorders due to an early review. Marketing-wise, it's good for them to have all of their preorders sold out like they currently are. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but I don't doubt it's a big part of their thinking.
 
bpizzle1 said:
I mean, the obvious answer is so that people can't really cancel their preorders due to an early review. Marketing-wise, it's good for them to have all of their preorders sold out like they currently are. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but I don't doubt it's a big part of their thinking.
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I highly doubt pre-orders is the main goal. It would be only a small portion of the overall sales. If the product is bad, no one will buy. Could be something else.. fear of competition?
 
Well....Early adopters will pre-order, those that will wait for performance benchmarks will wait the extra week for you guys to do your review - I know I will.

I'm really thinking about going with a 2080 as I do ML work for my day job so it would be great to try out the new arch on that stuff, but I can wait a week or two for that.
 
Nvidia are getting more and more farcical year in year out, at this point they may as well dictate that reviews are submitted to them and they have control to edit the reviews to their liking. Just smacks of paranoia and a company that isn't that confident in their product.
 
bpizzle1 said:
I mean, the obvious answer is so that people can't really cancel their preorders due to an early review. Marketing-wise, it's good for them to have all of their preorders sold out like they currently are.
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That totally makes sense, but what's more confusing is that Nvidia over the last decade anyway imo has always had good products... I mean the 1080 series is beast and Nvidia technology runs a lot of other devices we use. They are making money and for me released a stellar product with the 1080 series... that being said why would they purposefully knowingly potentially release a painfully flawed videocard this late in the game? Why destroy that goodwill? Even those people who preorder these cards could still return them but likely won't unless you are one of the few types of people that upgrades their videocards every year and you wouldn't notice a difference... whereas people such as myself who maybe upgrade every 5 years or so would buy it no matter what considering the performance difference will be massive compared to their current card. So really the only people who would potentially be pissed off about the 2080 being a subpar upgrade to the 1080 are reviewers who literally try and compare every card, and those people who upgrade every year... everybody else will be happy with the card no matter what.

Even if you are in the market for a new card because your current GPU is say 3-5 years old, and holding out because you want to see the reviews first for the 2080... regardless of what comes out of those benches they will still be a improvement over anything out at the moment. So, then the decision comes down to "Okay, the 2080 isn't a huge improvement over the 1080 but do I really want to save one or two hundred dollars on a previous gen video card when that generation is now 2 years old?"

I know I wouldn't try and save money and buy a 2 year old GPU technology... i'll want the newest no matter what especially if i'm only upgrading every 3-5 years.
 
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polonyc2 said:
I don't get it...so Nvidia is holding back launch day drivers but doesn't care if lower performance benchmark numbers leak out?...why not just supply the official driver which makes the cards look better in the end?
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The Good 'Ol "Cut our nose off to spite our face" strategy...always a winner, Nvidia.
 
zamardii12 said:
That totally makes sense, but what's more confusing is that Nvidia over the last decade anyway imo has always had good products... I mean the 1080 series is beast and Nvidia technology runs a lot of other devices we use. They are making money and for me released a stellar product with the 1080 series... that being said why would they purposefully knowingly potentially release a painfully flawed videocard this late in the game? Why destroy that goodwill? Even those people who preorder these cards could still return them but likely won't unless you are one of the few types of people that upgrades their videocards every year and you wouldn't notice a difference... whereas people such as myself who maybe upgrade every 5 years or so would buy it no matter what considering the performance difference will be massive compared to their current card. So really the only people who would potentially be pissed off about the 2080 being a subpar upgrade to the 1080 are reviewers who literally try and compare every card, and those people who upgrade every year... everybody else will be happy with the card no matter what.

Even if you are in the market for a new card because your current GPU is say 3-5 years old, and holding out because you want to see the reviews first for the 2080... regardless of what comes out of those benches they will still be a improvement over anything out at the moment. So, then the decision comes down to "Okay, the 2080 isn't a huge improvement over the 1080 but do I really want to save one or two hundred dollars on a previous gen videocard when that generation is not 2 years old?"

I know I wouldn't try and save money and buy a 2 year old GPU technology... i'll want the newest no matter what especially if i'm only upgrading every 3-5 years.
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I see your argument here but the only thing I can say to that is, does the better performance of this gen over any other gen equal the value of the card they are currently selling?
It literally is $400 more than what the last gen prices started at. The 1080Ti FE started at $699 now the 2080Ti is $1199.
We know they are claiming huge gains over the last gen but they are only giving benches at this point for Ray-Tracing which is new tech in the newest games. So at this point its not standard. No word on last gen games. Those of us who look at video cards with monetary value question this right off the bat considering the huge price jump. IMO it looks like they are still trying to ride the cryptomining wave with this release, because they know miners will buy the high end stuff at any price to gain the advantage.
 
"If you are seeing any benchmarks between now and the ~20th (we think the 2080 launch and 2080 Ti launch will be split on different days possibly), you are likely not seeing cards benchmarked with its launch driver. So keep that in the back of your mind as you see performance leaks come forward"

Or Nvidia allows certain outlets to "leak" to boost pre-orders.
 
I really really don't like all this shit NVidia is doing, but seeing how the market is right now...as long as they deliver on performance like they claim they will, I'll still buy from them. There just really isn't another choice right now, and AMD keeps falling just short of greatness. I would say I'm in the "enthusiast" category, and nothing AMD offers comes close to being better price or performance-wise for my needs.

Pretty much my same attitude that I have for Windows; you don't necessary like them, but you're kinda stuck with them.
 
I'd love to see what the review drivers look like compared release drivers.
Having s separate set if drivers only for reviewers looks extremely dubious!
 
ianken said:
However, for me, the big thing is timely game support. AMD really lost me a long time ago in the days waiting months and months for driver updates for various titles and eternal beta drivers.
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I think what you don't realize here is how Nvidia and AMD work with game developers in different ways. A game developer may try to cut corners and write sloppy code to get things done sooner. Nvidia hand holds and tweaks their drivers to maintain performance until the developer can get around and fix their sloppy code. AMD just flat out says "you are doing this wrong" and is okay with sub par performance. This was obvious back with PUBG back in the day where Nvidia cards got the best performance by a large margin. Eventually the PUBG devs tightened up their code and AMD got some good performance boosts without doing anything to their own drivers.
 
etudiant said:
Why would Nvidia still care?
Afaik, the thrust of the company is towards industrial applications, in simulation, AI and such. Gamers are a legacy business, not a growth center. So what is the benefit to Nvidia from accommodating that segment?
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Gaming hardware accounts for at least half of NVIDIA's total annual revenue. Their industrial and professional business segments would not exist if not for their gaming segment.
Digital Viper-X- said:
Im assuming it would work like this.

NV drafts up another GPP style program, informs all of its NDA signed outlets of it, now they cannot publish anything about it, even if they hear it from other sources. Effectively muting any way of discussing nvidia practices that they don't want made public .
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Unless sites like Forbes also sign the NDA, Kyle's exposés can still get traction and circulate in the media. Of course all those tech sites will miss out on it from now on.
Ocellaris said:
Hilbert at Guru3D is now calling out Kyle:

https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/n...stom-rtx-2080-ti-reviews.422723/#post-5579179

Stuff like this is why I would have rather Kyle just signed the Nvidia NDA. I want to read reviews, not business politics :p
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You can get plenty of that over at Guru3D.
 
griff30 said:
I'd love to see what the review drivers look like compared release drivers.
Having s separate set if drivers only for reviewers looks extremely dubious!
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Kind of like how Ferrari specially "prepares" factory cars for press reviews...allegedly. Now most high end performance/super car manufacturers send teams with their vehicles to insure "optimal conditions" for their vehicles.
 
Honestly, Nvidia is just taking cues from other industries. Examples include Ferrari and high-end hang bag companies like Hermes, Chanel, and Louis Vuitton. Ferrari controls EVERYTHING in the new and secondary markets, making it extremely difficult to own and maintain a Ferrari if you end up on their naughty list. High end hand bag manufacturers literally burn (with fire) their old inventory. Nvidia, according to the latest news, is forcing AIBs to eat the cost of 10 series inventory before they are allowed to get sufficient 20 series RTX. That is like a hand-bag manufacturer forcing the guy running the fire pit to pay the hand-bag manufacturer for the honor of burning their inventory. This little move by Nvidia also covered up their true Q2 financials. These are all shrewd and vicious business movies, but you have to wonder how long this is sustainable? 2020 when Intel enters the discrete graphics market? If/when AMD releases their next piece of hardware?
 
This level of control mania sounds like the new product is going to suck.

It might not and Nvidia be crazy, but if you have market leading product what the fuck are you scared of?
 
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Sulphademus said:
This level of control mania sounds like the new product is going to suck.

It might not and Nvidia be crazy, but if you have market leading product what the fuck are you scared of?
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Without having concrete #'s to go off of, it's pure speculation at this point. I'm waiting for [H]'s review before I formulate an opinion on what they are releasing.
 
Two things just came to mind...

First, what if all this hooting and hollering was nV's intention to keep the media and public from discussing the RTX's performance (whether or not it is there or is lacking)? In other words: a diversion tactic.

Second, everyone is doubting that there won't be any competing Radeon products any time soon; however, I can't help but wonder whether AMD starting to utilize TSMC is for two reasons...
...1) The obvious, that they needed to proceed with node advancements and GF decided to spin-off 7nm to a sub-entity they've created (like RTG is to AMD in a sense) and will not be mass producing at that size. So if they wanted 7nm, then TMSC was the only option.
...2) Lisa Su had decided that they needed to squeeze more clocks out of their designs and was having some of the Zen engineers lend their insights in that regard, BUT what if that was just a small part of the picture? The larger part being that -- while granted, the architecture also plays a role with clocks -- nVidia has generally had lots of luck with overclocking and they've used TSMC exclusively. Maybe AMD had sampled a couple wafers from TSMC and saw that they, too, were able to increase clocks by an appreciable amount with meaningful performance gains? (which also merited accepting that using-another-foundry 'fine' that was stated in their Wafer Supply Agreement with GF; in hindsight that 2016 amendment seems like 'writing on the wall' regarding GF's decision to put 7nm on the back burner)
 
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