NSA Likely Targets Anybody Who's 'Tor-Curious'

{NG}Fidel said:
The whole keeping us safe crap is the same shit any one looking to abuse power would claim.
Its what tricks the most people.
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"There is little value in insuring the survival
of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it.
And there is very grave danger that an announced need
for increased security will be seized upon
by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits
of official censorship and concealment."
,John F. Kennedy April 27th, 1961
 
The "nothing to hide" argument really pulls at my heart strings, and I feel that a lot of armchair citizens on the Internet really don't think about the lasting consequences of data collection like this.

I do not personally use Tor, but I have tried it in the past to see what "the deep web" was all about, as well as read about it to shape and block traffic in business practice for it. The issue doesn't start, nor end with the NSA in personal freedom. It is only a matter of time before information is mismanaged, intercepted, shared with or sold to another party and becomes a public issue.

LEO tends to keep to themselves in a lot of operations, because they often times feel like it will be difficult to avoid taking pitchforks away from the crowd, our own law enforcement and government doesn't believe us to be rational enough to handle information. There will be more Snowden's that leak information, there will be a continued Anon and Wikileak-like movements that try to play devils advocate by means of breaking the law to "open peoples' eyes", there will be even random circumstances where such information is disseminated by sheer accident (a lost USB key left on a plane) without context, that will absolutely cause panic. With how the media twists and turns things for views and subscriptions today, even a simple training exercise can quickly escalate into a world wide paradigm shift, triggering a lot more mistrust that we as a society do not benefit from. The consistency of information also has to be considered, if such bulk information is automatically collected, and for the sake of argument, such measures do manage to prevent crimes -- how many false positives that impede the freedom of the individual are we to suffer? It may seem on the surface that false positives are rare right now, but at what point will the system in place make a mistake? When will their procedures go wrong and damage the life of an otherwise non-law violating individual? Everyone has something to hide, something that they hold personal -- medical records, family problems, freedom to choose your employment, harmless rebellious nature that happens per generation, your sexual orientation, and even your browsing history if you choose to look at various opinions across the world to not be such a narrow minded twat. That information is being stored as permanent as technology allows, to be used later should you ever step out of line or to serve an agenda not your own.

Why would we seek to punish the curious? How is that ever a good thing? This isn't China, this isn't Russia, this is the USA. We've fought hard over the years to maintain independence from the crown, to practice habits to enrich the freedom of choice of our fellow man, to form a lasting union that is only as strong as our weakest link. The coming regime will disrupt everything we stand for, as Republicans, Democrats, and yes, even Liberals. It will become not land of the free, but land of the constantly having to prove your freedom, by maintaining hobbies and ideals that are acceptable by the public. We must prove that any thought toward entitlement, be meticulously scanned and allowed for. The tinfoil hat Liberals may be crazy and whiny, but from all evidence WE ARE moving towards a totalitarian state and any time someone continues to bend over on a whim and take it in the ass with the notion that it is an subscription fee as a citizen, just leads us further away from what allows this country true greatness. It is not security vs privacy, it is liberty vs conformity for the issues we're facing here at large. I am disappointed in all of us for allowing it to get this far in such short time.

I could elaborate further, I could probably speak for hours about this, but I think most of you will get the point, even if you choose dismiss it (and that is your choice, as it should be!)
 
i honest to goodness feel that nothing will change and nothing will get better until we literally (YES, literally) fire every single senator, house member, cabinet member, pres and vice pres. Sure you can vote in or out a few people here and there, but they are all friends drinking out of the same money pit in the end.

Wipe the slate clean, seriously. While you are at it, make lobbying illegal, and make it such that if you are found to be corrupt, you get the death penalty, no exceptions.

This idea of "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't worry" crap doesn't fly with me. I can easily see the idea of what it means to be American has become lost on many of the younger people today. Younger is relative - im only 32, but it pisses me off to see how crooked, fat, weak, and lost we have become versus our greater moments in history.

The handful of people that REALLY run this country, they are laughing all the way to the bank at just how much they are getting away with all this. It's like they used the book "1984" as a guide to make it happen, step by step. .
 
B00nie said:
So you guys would rather accept getting a second 911 or two just to keep your privacy from automated data mining scripts? Is that a good tradeoff?

And to the TOR users targeted: HA! I told you so! Anyone using encryption/TOR while not working for government or secret projects is automatically suspicious. Not only in NSAs eyes but mine too.
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Yes, because I don't live my life in Fear or being controlled by Fear. Sorry to burst the little bubble of fear and paranoia you live in but Freedom > the small risk of another 911. Newsflash, Freedom does carry a certain amount of risk and responsibility. As a veteran who has served this country and from a family that has lost people serving to fight for that freedom, I frankly couldn't give a flying shit about the paranoia of some basement dweller who likely has never so much as lifted a finger to fight for the freedom they are so willing to strip away from others. Freedom that countless people have given their lives to protect. So no, I'm not on board with the flagrant constitutional violations from the NSA.
 
Congress should defund this activity. If they won't stop....defund them completely.

Of course, the politicians are complacent in this. Yeah, Congress....looking at you here.
 
Reimu said:
At this rate, anyone that doesn't have a Facebook profile is automatically suspicious...
Click to expand...

So what? You can be suspicious all you like and you have nothing to worry unless you commit crimes. I don't have a facebook account. Does that make me scared? No. It makes me very happy.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Yes, because I don't live my life in Fear or being controlled by Fear. Sorry to burst the little bubble of fear and paranoia you live in but Freedom > the small risk of another 911. Newsflash, Freedom does carry a certain amount of risk and responsibility. As a veteran who has served this country and from a family that has lost people serving to fight for that freedom, I frankly couldn't give a flying shit about the paranoia of some basement dweller who likely has never so much as lifted a finger to fight for the freedom they are so willing to strip away from others. Freedom that countless people have given their lives to protect. So no, I'm not on board with the flagrant constitutional violations from the NSA.
Click to expand...

So you're willing to trade potentially your relatives or childs life in an attack that could have been prevented just so you can have privacy and nobody will see whats on your hobby mailing list or what trivial things you write to your friends. Where's the logic.
 
Farkle said:
The "nothing to hide" argument really pulls at my heart strings, and I feel that a lot of armchair citizens on the Internet really don't think about the lasting consequences of data collection like this.

I do not personally use Tor, but I have tried it in the past to see what "the deep web" was all about, as well as read about it to shape and block traffic in business practice for it. The issue doesn't start, nor end with the NSA in personal freedom. It is only a matter of time before information is mismanaged, intercepted, shared with or sold to another party and becomes a public issue.

LEO tends to keep to themselves in a lot of operations, because they often times feel like it will be difficult to avoid taking pitchforks away from the crowd, our own law enforcement and government doesn't believe us to be rational enough to handle information. There will be more Snowden's that leak information, there will be a continued Anon and Wikileak-like movements that try to play devils advocate by means of breaking the law to "open peoples' eyes", there will be even random circumstances where such information is disseminated by sheer accident (a lost USB key left on a plane) without context, that will absolutely cause panic. With how the media twists and turns things for views and subscriptions today, even a simple training exercise can quickly escalate into a world wide paradigm shift, triggering a lot more mistrust that we as a society do not benefit from. The consistency of information also has to be considered, if such bulk information is automatically collected, and for the sake of argument, such measures do manage to prevent crimes -- how many false positives that impede the freedom of the individual are we to suffer? It may seem on the surface that false positives are rare right now, but at what point will the system in place make a mistake? When will their procedures go wrong and damage the life of an otherwise non-law violating individual? Everyone has something to hide, something that they hold personal -- medical records, family problems, freedom to choose your employment, harmless rebellious nature that happens per generation, your sexual orientation, and even your browsing history if you choose to look at various opinions across the world to not be such a narrow minded twat. That information is being stored as permanent as technology allows, to be used later should you ever step out of line or to serve an agenda not your own.

Why would we seek to punish the curious? How is that ever a good thing? This isn't China, this isn't Russia, this is the USA. We've fought hard over the years to maintain independence from the crown, to practice habits to enrich the freedom of choice of our fellow man, to form a lasting union that is only as strong as our weakest link. The coming regime will disrupt everything we stand for, as Republicans, Democrats, and yes, even Liberals. It will become not land of the free, but land of the constantly having to prove your freedom, by maintaining hobbies and ideals that are acceptable by the public. We must prove that any thought toward entitlement, be meticulously scanned and allowed for. The tinfoil hat Liberals may be crazy and whiny, but from all evidence WE ARE moving towards a totalitarian state and any time someone continues to bend over on a whim and take it in the ass with the notion that it is an subscription fee as a citizen, just leads us further away from what allows this country true greatness. It is not security vs privacy, it is liberty vs conformity for the issues we're facing here at large. I am disappointed in all of us for allowing it to get this far in such short time.

I could elaborate further, I could probably speak for hours about this, but I think most of you will get the point, even if you choose dismiss it (and that is your choice, as it should be!)
Click to expand...

Who said anything about punishing the curious? You need to DO something to get in trouble. If you're 'curious' about school massacres, bomb making etc. then your curiosity is a cause for monitoring as far as I'm concerned!
 
Well here in the UK we are starting to face up to the fact that essentially a large part of the establishment and government is made up of a cabal of child molesters. It's always been rumoured but tightly controlled by the powers that be.

This has been suppressed for decades but is now growing momentum in the non Murdoch controlled media. However, it seems that as this will all unravel it may well show that this is a worldwide power network spanning many pillars of the upper end of society.

Expect many names around the world to be exposed....hopefully.
 
B00nie said:
Who said anything about punishing the curious? You need to DO something to get in trouble. If you're 'curious' about school massacres, bomb making etc. then your curiosity is a cause for monitoring as far as I'm concerned!
Click to expand...

because everyone in gitmo is guilty
 
B00nie said:
So you're willing to trade potentially your relatives or childs life in an attack that could have been prevented just so you can have privacy and nobody will see whats on your hobby mailing list or what trivial things you write to your friends. Where's the logic.
Click to expand...

I am willing to trade my own life to live in a society where the government isn't allowed to Spy and strip away the rights of its citizens. This is apparently a concept that cowards can't understand. If you hate the concept of freedom so much, there are plenty of other countries that are willing to coddle you in exchange for it. Of course if you look at their history you will realize that even with all the spying and removal of rights from citizens they still aren't even a shred safer, but ignorance is bliss I suppose.
 
B00nie said:
So you're willing to trade potentially your relatives or childs life in an attack that could have been prevented just so you can have privacy and nobody will see whats on your hobby mailing list or what trivial things you write to your friends. Where's the logic.
Click to expand...

I think we have to watch out for government hyperbole though (it is easy to claim you prevented attacks that didn't occur). The scope creep of the NSA should be of concern to Americans. Unlike some I don't want to disband it as its original purpose (to spy on everyone else outside the USA) is still valid. But I don't see a pressing reason to spy on folks within the USA.

Now other things, like the TSA and Border Patrol are still useful and I don't support people that want to diminish or reduce those ... they should be controlled, and regulated but they do serve a valid security purpose ... I have traveled overseas in Asia a lot and many of their airports have a military presence or heavily armed security contingent (and they are generally far safer than the USA) ...

I also like concepts like Global Entry and TSA Precheck that give preferential treatment to those who undergo advance security screening ... those are things that provide value without excessive intrusion into people's lives ... and they are completely voluntary :cool:
 
Dekoth-E- said:
I am willing to trade my own life to live in a society where the government isn't allowed to Spy and strip away the rights of its citizens. This is apparently a concept that cowards can't understand. If you hate the concept of freedom so much, there are plenty of other countries that are willing to coddle you in exchange for it. Of course if you look at their history you will realize that even with all the spying and removal of rights from citizens they still aren't even a shred safer, but ignorance is bliss I suppose.
Click to expand...

Although Americans would never support it, I almost wish we had a system like the government of Thailand ... every decade or so when their civilian government becomes too corrupt their military overthrows the civilian government ... they return it to civilian control after stabilizing the situation over the course of a year or two (most Thai people trust their military more than they trust their civilian government) ... it is too bad we don't have a similar process here since our civilian government has become corrupt to the point it is probably salvageable :(
 
B00nie said:
Who said anything about punishing the curious? You need to DO something to get in trouble. If you're 'curious' about school massacres, bomb making etc. then your curiosity is a cause for monitoring as far as I'm concerned!
Click to expand...

Evidently, you do not need to "DO" something to get in trouble. Especially in the case of information mining databases like this. See: CRB database error.

It doesn't matter if your record has been expunged after the fact, or if you were rewarded some paltry sum for the mistake -- you have that mark on your record for the rest of your life, and that information will come out if it suits someone to use it against you at a later date.
 
kbrickley said:
Although Americans would never support it, I almost wish we had a system like the government of Thailand ... every decade or so when their civilian government becomes too corrupt their military overthrows the civilian government ... they return it to civilian control after stabilizing the situation over the course of a year or two (most Thai people trust their military more than they trust their civilian government) ... it is too bad we don't have a similar process here since our civilian government has become corrupt to the point it is probably salvageable :(
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That sets a dangerous precedence where the military becomes the kingmaker if you will. Seeing this in US can potentially spell the end of the American Republic...
 
Reimu said:
That sets a dangerous precedence where the military becomes the kingmaker if you will. Seeing this in US can potentially spell the end of the American Republic...
Click to expand...

It would never work here ... but it does keep the democracy of Thailand stable ... our problem is we are missing that extra balancing element (in Thailand they have four, the elected government, the military, the Buddhist monks, and the Monarchy ... with the government being the only one who can make laws, the other three balance out the moral compass of the government) ... we might almost be better off taking the pain of a switch and moving to a Parliamentary system rather than the presidential republic we have now ... we are the only country with a president who is independent of the elected house members to survive for any length of time ... every other country has either switched to a dictatorship (putting all the power in the hands of the former president) or to a Parliament system which puts it into the hands of the elected house ... it probably isn't possible to switch at this point though
 
B00nie said:
So you guys would rather accept getting a second 911 or two just to keep your privacy from automated data mining scripts? Is that a good tradeoff?
Click to expand...
You do know that the government had more than enough information that could have stopped the 9/11 attacks and did nothing, right? No one can really make the argument that mass collection of data prevents any attack, because how many have died from "terrorist" attacks since the programs has started? But I tend to look at everything objectively, so....*shrugs*
 
Why do some people want to trade everyone else's liberty because they're irrationally phobic of a rare event?
 
B00nie said:
So you guys would rather accept getting a second 911 or two just to keep your privacy from automated data mining scripts? Is that a good tradeoff?
Click to expand...

Yes. My rights trump your wants.

I'll tell you what, I'll trade in my right to privacy when you trade in your right to vote. Personally I think that you trivialize the sacrifices others have made to secure your rights for you. Countless Americans have died through each generation to keep your rights intact, don't throw away their sacrifice with such disregard.
 
canna said:
I'll trade in my right to privacy when you trade in your right to vote. Personally I think that you trivialize the sacrifices others have made to secure your rights for you.
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burn
 
We are raised and groomed to blindly follow authority.

I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else, and now I make it a point to question everything and anyone who would promote the limit our information in any way, or expand the state's.
 
kbrickley said:
It would never work here ... but it does keep the democracy of Thailand stable ... our problem is we are missing that extra balancing element (in Thailand they have four, the elected government, the military, the Buddhist monks, and the Monarchy ... with the government being the only one who can make laws, the other three balance out the moral compass of the government) ... we might almost be better off taking the pain of a switch and moving to a Parliamentary system rather than the presidential republic we have now ... we are the only country with a president who is independent of the elected house members to survive for any length of time ... every other country has either switched to a dictatorship (putting all the power in the hands of the former president) or to a Parliament system which puts it into the hands of the elected house ... it probably isn't possible to switch at this point though
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Yeah, that system is working so well for Thailand.

Oh well, at least you're not asking for Somalia-style government like so many do these days.
 
evilsofa said:
Yeah, that system is working so well for Thailand.

Oh well, at least you're not asking for Somalia-style government like so many do these days.
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My wife is Thai so she is a little closer to the situation than FoxNews ... also, I am going to take with a grain of salt any organization that refers to Thais as Hindu-Buddhist culture ... I said that situation wouldn't work here (we don't share the same trust in our military) ... ultimately a Parliamentary system is probably the only viable solution for us :cool:
 
Even more messed up than this is how many people still think snowden should be prosecuted for treason.
Definitive whistle blower.
 
Dark12 said:
Even more messed up than this is how many people still think snowden should be prosecuted for treason.
Definitive whistle blower.
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Well, Snowden could be tried for sedition. He has done quite a bit of damage to the American administration, as well as damaging American economic interests. It looks to me that quite a few Americans take serious offense about this loss of American influence on the world.
 
kbrickley said:
My wife is Thai so she is a little closer to the situation than FoxNews ... also, I am going to take with a grain of salt any organization that refers to Thais as Hindu-Buddhist culture ... I said that situation wouldn't work here (we don't share the same trust in our military) ... ultimately a Parliamentary system is probably the only viable solution for us :cool:
Click to expand...

Aha, I think I get it now. You basically want to get rid of the Presidential branch of government entirely, appoint John Boehner to be Prime Minister, and then have the military overthrow the government whenever the Democratic party gets a majority in either the House or Congress. Or have I misunderstood your intentions?
 
Reimu said:
Well, Snowden could be tried for sedition.
Click to expand...

Did you mean treason? Sedition is currently mostly a conservative gun nut affection, most recently displayed on Clive Bundy's ranch.

American sedition laws were mostly repealed in 1921. Which was a good thing, or kbrickley would be facing execution for his posts in this thread.
 
evilsofa said:
Did you mean treason? Sedition is currently mostly a conservative gun nut affection, most recently displayed on Clive Bundy's ranch.

American sedition laws were mostly repealed in 1921. Which was a good thing, or kbrickley would be facing execution for his posts in this thread.
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I don't mean treason, since Snowden's been careful about not tying himself to a state officially speaking. Now, had he take the info to North Korea, then treason would stick. I guess espionage charges would automatically apply here, so I didn't really mention it.
 
evilsofa said:
Not on the Internet.

Anyone who thinks they are entitled to privacy on the Internet is an idiot. Anyone who thinks they have ever had privacy on the Internet is a fool.
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There used to be more privacy as there is now, sure not %100, but 10 years ago you had far more privacy than today.
 
MrGuvernment said:
There used to be more privacy as there is now, sure not %100, but 10 years ago you had far more privacy than today.
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In 2004? At the height of post-9/11 paranoia? You might want to read up a bit on a fellow named Russ Tice.
 
OEM said:
I use to think people were nothing but tin foil hat wearers...and then this happened and I really started to think about what America was founded for...and it wasn't to be spied on. I don't have the answer to what we as people should do, but I no longer think people that talk about a revolution are nuts.

Our great nation was founded because of a revolution because people weren't happy with their government, why can't that happen again in modern times?

Our government is overstepping what they should be allowed to do and we need to do something about it.
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Be quiet or they'll turn off your electricity privileges for a week. :eek:
 
Anyone who thinks government entities like this give two shits about any individuals freedom and safety is crazy. These people would come into your house and take you out in a split second if they see fit. Their desire is to keep the union whole, And relatively safe. No individual matters in the least.
 
Sheppard said:
Anyone who thinks government entities like this give two shits about any individuals freedom and safety is crazy. These people would come into your house and take you out in a split second if they see fit. Their desire is to keep the union whole, And relatively safe. No individual matters in the least.
Click to expand...

I agree, it is all about keeping the "Union" whole. "The Fraternal Order of Police", and all of the other unions that is.

Many agencies have a "last in, first out" employment policy, they can look around the room and know which employee is next in line to be laid off or terminated due to potential budget cuts. So they need to keep their wars running, their war on drugs, their war on terror.
 
Lith1um said:
I agree, it is all about keeping the "Union" whole. "The Fraternal Order of Police", and all of the other unions that is.

Many agencies have a "last in, first out" employment policy, they can look around the room and know which employee is next in line to be laid off or terminated due to potential budget cuts. So they need to keep their wars running, their war on drugs, their war on terror.
Click to expand...

But what about the Confederates?
 
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