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Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by AndreRio, Oct 20, 2013.
Frankly, there are a lot of things I'm hearing about 8.1 that's pushing me to stay on 8 at the moment.
Of course for obvious reasons I don't like 8 as many others, but the Skydrive ingratiation of 8.1 requiring using a Microsoft account to log onto my computer did it for me. Microsoft could of allowed you to use a local account and sign into Skydrive separately, but no, they don't. It actually is a little insulting to me. The only reason I can think of that they make you do this is because they think people are too stupid to know to log into Skydrive separately, like you had to do with 7 and 8. The idea that Skydrive is more "tightly" integrated is a BS excuse. That only thing different is that it's included out of the box.
boot to desktop is a major step in the right direction...but a real Start Menu is still needed and not this pseudo Start butoon which only takes you to the Metro interface...one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind
Well, I'm *using* 8.1, though whether I like it or not is debatable. I've used Start8 forever now so I could always boot straight to desktop and have a proper start menu, so none of that bothered me before or now. So 8.1 pretty much doesn't do anything for me except now I have an annoying "Secureboot isn't configured correctly" watermark, and my Intel HD 4600 doesn't work anymore on my second monitor, so that's no fun.
Its funny, it used to be that you paid for a Windows license and then added whatever you needed. It used to be that all the crapware and trialware that came with OEM PC's could be cleansed by a clean install of Windows. Now the crapware is Windows itself. Now you pay for a Windows license but you're looking at ads in default apps and default search as you're trying to fight your way back out of the box Microsoft's marketing department is trying to herd everyone into because they think it will be an easy shortcut to gaining share in other markets like mobile and online services in which they're far less relevant. If they want desktop users on their me-too online services that bad they should really reduce or eliminate the upfront Windows cost. I'm sure that'll be their next brilliant maneuver once they've worn everyone's patience real thin and it won't make as much difference as it could now.
Given their clear Windows roadmap of phasing out the desktop and Win32 and full steam ahead for walled, locked down tablet OS, its starting to look like Windows 8.0 will be the last Windows I'll ever use. We had some good times, MS.
Nope. Using Windows 7 Ultimate x64 and more than content with it. Completely skipping Win8.x like I skipped Vista
They cannot and will not go that far, at least not within the next 10 years. That is pure hyperbole at best.
How exactly does 'boot to desktop' fix anything?
I don't mind the fact that Microsoft wants Windows to be a cross-platform product. That's great. The problem is that the touch UI is not the optimal interface for the desktop. They could have eliminated most of the bad buzz about Windows 8/Modern UI just by allowing desktop users to stay in the desktop mode with a start menu rather than switching back and forth. Desktop market share may be shrinking, but they've clearly hurt sales and ruined the Windows 8 brand by failing to address the concerns of desktop users during this transition.
I'm not anti-Microsoft, I spent a lot of time debunking the anti-Vista bullshit and FUD, but I really can't see any compelling reason to use Windows 8 on a desktop. The Start Screen is less functional than the old start menu, the charms menu is stupid on the desktop, you lose the gorgeous Aero glass GUI, and you have to pay for Pro + $10 to get Media Center, a standard Windows Vista/7 Home Premium feature (and it's exactly the same program).
A tablet/phone interface does not an efficent desktop OS make. I'm sticking with Windows Vista/7 until MS realizes this, or I am forced to upgrade due to a game requiring DX11.1 functionality.
LOL@Penny Arcade comic
Win8.1 is a great update for tablets. It does nothing to address its issues on non-touch screen devices.
The boot to desktop feature has been something available in Start Menu replacements around a year, but that isn't the problem. I have multi-boot on my primary system, and the only 2 times I've booted into Windows 8 in the last 2 months was to get OS updates. I just don't see any benefit at all to slow down my computer use just to run Win8.
I'm still holding out hope that corporate rejection of Win8 will push MS into releasing a version with Metro disabled. Otherwise, I'll stick with Win7 until MS gets its head out of its fundament and remembers most of its sales go to productivity users.
Nope, not even close. I have 0 reason to move from Windows 7 for either of my machines. Corporate users have no reason to switch. I'll be perfectly happy skipping this version.
Nope. Not that I'm anti Win8, I just don't like the UI and think Win7's is just about perfect. Don't see why I'd "upgrade" to something that performs virtually identical but has a worse UI. I'll stick with 7 til 9 comes out. Judging by Microsoft's track record, 9 should be just about right.
Not a chance, way too little, way too late for far too much.
Its cheaper and easier to stick with the better option.
Nope, Windows 7 Ultimate 64 here! Start menu is a fuking joke! The UI is just useless. You can now resize and recolor tiles? Who the fuck wants that on desktop OS? Where are my libraries? I want to be able to view with a few clicks my documents, videos, pics, USB drives, my dedicated steam drive, music folders, etc..... And for those of you using start8 and classic shell and all that shit, I guarantee you with every windows update from M$ it will break your shit and its going to be ping pong and catch up to make your custom UI work again! No thanks! Do you get it, M$ wants to force you to use their new UI?
Until they do. Then you apologists will quickly shift stances to "Well who didn't see this coming" and "Well you had plenty of time to prepare".
"Not in the next 10 years" = laughable. Nobody could've predicted they'd be as blindly aggressive as they have been with attempting to ram a tablet interface and tablet appstore down desktop users' throats, and yet that happened. At this point nothing is out of the question for Microsoft, nothing would surprise me. And given the trajectory set by first Windows 8 and now Windows 8.1 with the increasing encroachment of ads and online services into a *paid OS*, it is obvious the direction they're headed.
"Apologist." Right. If they do that, I will claim it the stupidest move they have ever made and switch to Linux right away. I've said this in multiple threads already.
However, the reason why they won't do that is because of their largest customers: businesses. Businesses rely on their own custom software, software that will never be in the Windows store.
The Windows 8 Pro upgrade they're asking $190 for *SHOULD* come with a Metro off switch and ability to restore classic elements like the start menu. Same with Enterprise edition. Then if they really wanted desktop users to use Metro and buy the crappy web-widget HTML apps in there they could've incentivized it by making the regular/home version free or greatly discounted. But no, its still a clash of the "way we've always done it" old Microsoft and the marketing department overreacting to market shifts that they're too late for and have already left them behind, and they'll just continue to sputter along on the declining momentum of forced Win8 adoption through new PC and laptop purchases where people don't have a choice between Windows 7 and 8 and don't know better.
Regardless of which side of this issue you fall on, now was not the time for Microsoft to be polarizing.
Using Windows 8.1 here and not signed in to Skydrive. I just clicked "Next" and then left it blank when I was asked to provide an account. Or was it not supposed to let me in without skydrive?
EDIT: Nope - some of the apps like Skype prompt me to sign in with a Microsoft account or to create one still if I click on it. Consider me an 8.1 user who's "off-the-grid."
Double edit: Okay, it looks like you need the Microsoft account to download anything that's on the Microsoft Store (updates like Windows 8.1 excepted). Just like the Apple store. I don't know - it doesn't bother me. I mean, the Metro apps are cool, but if I didn't want to have a separate Microsoft account, then I don't have to have one. It's not impossible to use the OS like you would normally without it. But then again, Windows 7 does all of that too...
I'm hoping they've learned their lesson. Ballmer is gone, Julie Larson-Green was removed from the Windows division, and rumor is that Windows RT is dead or at least being 'merged' with Windows Phone OS. It's also rumored that the next version of Windows will be launching in 2014 and Aero will be making a comeback in some fashion.
I still don't understand how Microsoft managed to completely miss the boat on low-cost tablets and screw up the Windows 8 UI so badly. Hopefully Terry Myerson and the people under him have real design talent and a better grasp of what users actually want.
The Windows 8 UI is based on Windows Phone 7, which had great reviews on a phone. They didn't mess up when it came to a touch interface. They messed up when they made the touch interface interfere with keyboard/mouse usage.
Sticking with Windows 7 on my main gaming rig, one laptop and my HTPC. Switched my spare desktop and other laptop to Ubuntu 12.04LTS and Linux Mint 15 respectively. If MS doesn't pull it's head from it's rear and continues this phone OS on a desktop BS, I'll be prepared. Hopefully Steam OS will eventually bring us a Linux distro with awesome gaming support
No, now it has annoying popups makes it more annoying to use, what exactly did Microsoft fix anyway?
They have some similarities (the tiles). The problem isn't just that it's a touch OS on a desktop product, it's not very well designed to begin with. There's no charms bar in Windows Phone, and there was no reason to split traditional start menu options between the start screen and the charms bar in Windows 8.
I can imagine a future where Windows provides a sort of unified tile launcher across platforms. It wouldn't be a problem if desktop users had the option to stay in desktop mode rather than switching back and forth between tiles and the desktop to launch apps. This is going to be important in the future even as phones become the dominant general computing device. When I'm on the go I want a good touch UI, when I'm at home and have the phone connected to my keyboard/mouse/monitor I'm going to want a desktop UI.
Agreed. Add Lightboost 60 hz window speed to the list.
Agreed, I don't see any problems with the idea of a unified UI. The problem is the implementation was subpar, to put it mildly, and they still haven't fixed that in 8.1.
My problem isn't the full screen start menu. I rather like it and find it just as easy to navigate. And the fact that it will pop up on any screen is a welcome improvement over being stuck on the primary screen for multimonitor systems.
IMO, one of the main problems with the Start Screen is the lack of folders and subfolders in the all apps menu. It makes those who have workstation programs (like matlab, comsol, etc) a pain to navigate through. Then there's the manner of the settings. Instead of mirroring all the settings across both the desktop control panel and Metro control panel, they decided to arbitrarily put things here and there, so you occasionally end up flipping between the two control panels trying to get what you need. This especially applies to the network control.
And then there's the bungled manner of update (seriously, why can't we update through the normal Windows Update? It's there for a reason!) and the SecureBoot watermark that requires disabling of UAC to get rid of, even if the system doesn't support SecureBoot or SecureBoot is turned off in the bios. Also, no initial option to use a local account (you have to enter wrong password or set up without internet to get local account option), and several other things were done majorly wrong in 8.1 (skydrive for example).
Use the web client, then. Duh.
In the entire existence of all of these discussions, I have yet to find one single person with a valid example of how the new interface interferes with keyboard/mouse usage. Essentially every interaction you could have with your Windows computer is version agnostic when it comes to keyboard and mouse interaction. It doesn't matter whether you're on Windows 7 or Windows 8.1, the keyboard/mouse interaction is the same for the same task.
Feel free to cite examples where the new interface does in fact provide an impediment to keyboard and mouse users.
Read my last post. I detailed it quite clearly there how Microsoft's implementation of the Start Screen and Metro interferes with keyboard/mouse usage.
You have a keyboard. Why aren't you using the indexed search? This is the quickest and easiest way to launch in application in Windows 7 or Windows 8/8.1. In Windows 8.1, this is even easier than in Windows 8, since search results are no longer grouped. Just search for the application you wish to launch.
Additionally, most workstation programs (because they usually have features which depend on other workstation applications. This is how Comsol locates your copy of MATLAB, for instance.) are added to the system path, so if you really want to take advantage of your keyboard, you can do Windows Key + R, and enter 'matlab', for example.
Everything you could ever need to change (that isn't related to the metro experience) is in the desktop control panel (though one would wonder why you're using the noob panel to begin with. Just search for the settings menu you're looking for, or load the relevant MMC snap-in. If you're a power user, use power shell. You can't tell me it isn't quicker to just search for 'Network' than it is to open up control panel and go looking for the menu you want). Everything related to the modern UI is in the modern UI settings menu. The distinction between what is accessible from the desktop and what is accessible from the modern UI should be obvious, and if you know where to look for things, this is not a barrier for keyboard mouse interaction.
You're confusing your own lack of familiarity with a UI problem. If I set you in front of a Mac, and you're not a Mac user, you're probably going to spend a good deal of time looking in various screens for what you want. This doesn't mean that the Mac UI is unfit for keyboard and mouse users...it just means you haven't learned enough to figure out where things are. This is of course assuming you're considering this one of the keyboard/mouse interaction problems. It was not clear whether this was the nature of your complaint or not.
Like I'm going to remember every little tool that comes with the software. And it's not about finding the tool that's my gripe, it's about the user guide and introduction PDFs. These PDFs are simply labeled "Introduction" or "User Guide," and without the subfolder showing where they belong in, it's impossible to tell what they are. Cadence and Comsol alone take up the entire screen with icons and PDFs. Edit: It also makes the All Apps screen look extremely cluttered, which I do not like at all.
Tell me why I can't change the lockscreen background from the desktop control panel. Tell me why I can't change my account picture or password from the desktop control panel. Tell me why I can't change the Start Screen theme from the desktop control panel. Why is the refresh and reset options can only be used through the Metro control panel?
You don't need to remember every little tool; you just need to remember the tools you use. And if you actually know how to use the tool, is remembering the name of it too much to ask? Also, Matlab for one doesn't come with much in the way of tools you launch separately from matlab itself. Matlab uses add-in toolboxes which are run from matlab's interpreter itself.
Well for starters, you have the internet at your command, so I'm not sure why you'd even want to bother with the local copies of the help files. But more importantly, what you've really uncovered is a problem with the software, not the operating system. Applications like cadence are not pretty, nor are they well written. Cadence's constituent software packages serve their engineering purpose well: Their models are well designed, they use good numerical methods, etc. However, as a piece of software, the implementation is absolutely horrible. Cadence specifically is just a pile of many old software packages crammed together into one big duct-taped box. They also made no attempt and handling edge cases, and the list of ways you can 'break' cadence is fairly tremendous. Considering how un-robust the software is, I am amazed you have gripes about Windows after using cadence. If sifting through the crap cadence clutters your machine with is the problem, that's a cadence problem for not having a more intelligent solution to delivering documentation and help.
Because the lock screen is clearly part of the modern UI.
Because nobody in the world manages user accounts from the control panel. If you'd like to do that, you should use Computer Management, as it offers you much more control over your account (including things like group membership) than control panel does.
Because the start screen theme clearly has nothing to do with the desktop. If you're looking to change that, it should be plainly obvious to you that you need to go to the modern UI options panel to do that. If you cannot connect those dots, I'd say this is more of a personal problem.
Because you didn't look hard enough. They're definitely available from the desktop.
I can now honestly say people like you are the primary reason Windows 8 defenders get a bad rep. I'm not going to even bother responding to you from now on, as you are exactly like a horse with blinders on.
Been using Start8 for a while so I've always booted to desktop with a fully functional start button but the main reason I made the switch on my main PC and laptop to Windows 8 and now Windows 8.1 is because I need the ability to manage Windows Server 2012 and 2012 R2 servers from them.
The UI is as usable as you make it out to be in your own way.
For me, it's gotten more usable than before.
With Windows 8 (no Start button add-ons)-- Move mouse to side, hit Search, type in the first few letters of the program I want to launch.
With Windows 8.1-- Start button, then hit the down arrow on the Start Screen to bring up this:
It's not the original Start menu, but it works. Unfortunately, you cannot resize the icons but it has a nifty sort feature.
Ignore-filtered him months ago. Has financial stake in MS or just wants to argue. When someone isn't even willing to admit that Metro wasn't designed for keyboard/mouse PC's but mp3 players, smartphones and tablets and only later considered for KB/M as part of a strategic afterthought toward longterm eCommerce and mobile ambitions, its hard to have a conversation.
All of this could have been solved with a simple Metro on/off switch. Or an auto-detect at bootup: If touchscreen detected then default to Metro, else Windows. Boom, done. But that didn't happen, MS still believes they can "Stockholm" everyone into Metro, and here we are -- over two years since the first public betas of Win8 that sparked the Metro pushback that's still raging on now and nothing's really changed in its first incremental update.
I actually don't mind the Metro interface on the desktop, except for the things I outlined above. I think it has the potential to become a good unified interface, except Microsoft did a crap job at it.
Obviously you're just saying that because I had legitimate answers to all of your complaints and you can't figure out a way to 'come out on top'. I took the time to address all of your complaints because there is a clear answer to all of them, and yet you feel I am being unacceptable because I found clear answers to your complaints. Sorry, next time I'll just roll over and say "Well of course using Windows 8.1 is actually impossible for mouse and keyboard users, now that you mention that you can't change the start-screen theme from the desktop. Changing the start screen theme from the start screen options is clearly the most illogical thing I've ever seen in my entire life. I should just throw my desktop out the Window now and go buy a touch screen all-in-one PC, because that's clearly the only thing that can use Windows 8.1. They should have made it exactly like Windows 7 in every way, so that instead of complaining about the advancements, we could complain about how Microsoft didn't change anything and yet expects people to pay for a new OS!"
Clearly it must be those of us who are objective and open-minded enough to give Windows 8.1 a fair shot who are the ones with the horse blinders on.
Yes, when someone won't admit that an operating system with every single interactive mechanic for mouse and keyboard input of the previous versions wasn't designed for mouse and keyboard PCs, and you simply cannot handle that so much that you have to ignore-list said person, clearly they must be the one with the social problems.
Okay, I'm going to take back my words just for this one point. You did not have legitimate answers, you completely sidestepped or ignored the reason behind those things altogether.
For the organization: Windows 7 doesn't have any of those organization problems, and it just looks absolutely messy on the Windows 8 All Apps menu. It isn't that hard to implement subfolders in the All Apps menu, and it won't be a detriment to touch screen users at all. Instead, it can arguably make it easier for touch screen users to navigate, and at worse make it about the same. It would be almost exactly like accessing folders on Android or iOS. Android and iOS started without the option to have folders to organize apps, and due to user demand they added it. Yet Windows, with its much greater plethora of programs, decided that folders was not needed. WHY!?
You have to go through the lockscreen to get through the desktop. Therefore, I consider it as part of the desktop.
The Start Screen is the primary method for launching programs, whether it's a desktop program or Metro program. Winkey+type takes you to the Start Screen to launch the program, therefore, it's part of the desktop.
The default method for managing user accounts is through the Control Panel in Windows 7. Why did it need to be separated? Keep it there, and mirror it in the Metro settings as well. Also, "Nobody manages it from the Control Panel?" IT users probably won't, but the average person does. Not everyone is an IT user.
Typing Restore or Refresh in the Start Screen search, and hitting Restore/Refresh leads you to the Metro Control Panel. Tell me how you can use it in the desktop.
BTW, I've been using Windows 8 on my desktop, have been for a year now ever since it came out. I am fine with it for the most part, EXCEPT those things that I mentioned. I've also been one of the people defending Windows 8 in the first few months, yet you imply that I am the typical Windows 8 hater. You absolutely have no idea what you're talking about.
The start screen is application oriented, not folder tree oriented. A word document is not a program. Neither is a pdf, or an HTML document. Applications should not be adding these files as programs. If you wish to offer help and documentation to users, the intelligent thing to do is to use the built-in HTML Help API, or at least write a chain-of-responsibility help/documentation menu for your application. You will notice that intelligently designed applications do not spam the start menu with files that aren't programs, because there are far more elegant solutions to this problem.
If you open up a modern UI app, and then lock the computer, when you unlock the computer, it will go back to that modern UI app. So since I have to go through the lock screen to get to the photos app, is the lock screen also part of the photos app? The lock screen is part of every app, by that logic.
No, I think we both can clearly realize that the lock screen is part of the start screen, and that both of these things are gateways to any of the apps you might wish to open, the Desktop app being one of those.
Pressing Windows Key and typing does the same thing from any application. If you open up the Pictures app, press the Windows key and start typing, the same thing will occur as what would happen from the desktop. So by your logic, the start screen is also part of the Pictures app, and everything else as well.
Additionally, the start screen is present in Windows RT, where users wouldn't be launching Win32 apps. Clearly the start screen is its own entity, and it interfaces with the desktop just as it interfaces with everything else on the computer.
Continuity across devices and account schemes? Non-technical users can manage their accounts the same way they would on Windows Phone 8 or their Windows RT tablet. Technical users can manage their accounts the same way as they did on Windows 7.
Along with that, local and domain accounts are generally going to be managed from computer management, while Microsoft accounts are obviously not going to be.
The non-IT users will have no problem figuring out that all they need to do is click on their name from the start screen to make those changes.
You honestly can't figure that one out on your own? Did you not even bother typing the word 'Recovery' into the search before claiming that it can't be done?
Find where I implied that you're another Windows 8 hater. The only thing I implied (and by implied, I mean directly stated) is that your complaints that the UI is not keyboard and mouse friendly are not valid.
I'm staying with 7!