Now that Carmack is developing primarily on XBox 360

5150Joker

5150Joker

Supreme [H]ardness
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Looks like us PC guys will get second hand xbox 360 engines from id in the future. Guess that's one high profile dev. gone to the dark side of console gaming. Guess PC gaming really is on the decline when you have important devs shift over to the shitty console platform.
 
From what I read, it sounds like he just wants a break from the driver problems of the PC platform. He even said their next game would be shipping for the PC before the consoles. I'm guessing compared to the PC, this is just restful for him.
 
Source?

I find this very dubious, he is an OpenGL coder, for him to code on the Xbox he would have to get use to the DirectX API which will take time

Maybe going for PS3 but not Xbox360
 
eeyrjmr said:
Source?

I find this very dubious, he is an OpenGL coder, for him to code on the Xbox he would have to get use to the DirectX API which will take time

Maybe going for PS3 but not Xbox360
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Look on the front page of http://www.hardocp.com
A couple of news items on it. One is totally opposite of what you say. He says the PS3 was a "pain in the ass" while the Xbox360 was "refreshing".
 
Exactly, as there probably arn't too many more guys other than him that know as much. I myself am shifting myself away from PC gaming to console gaming with the Xbox 360. Until recently, i've been a diehard PC gamer due to the lack of very many decent games on consoles. Now that some of the best game developers in the world are focusing on consoles, I don't see any more reason to game on a PC. I'm just sick of compatibility issues with everything, having to tweek the hell out of my computer for some games, and the bugginess of many computer PC titles. Besides, i'm on a limited budget and console gaming is a LOT cheaper.
 
He swore off older versions (I believe it was DX3) of DirectX, I'm sure there have been improvements since then.
 
5150Joker said:
Looks like us PC guys will get second hand xbox 360 engines from id in the future. Guess that's one high profile dev. gone to the dark side of console gaming. Guess PC gaming really is on the decline when you have important devs shift over to the shitty console platform.
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Thats a great overstatement, I believe it was more along the lines of he will be using the xbox 360s hardware (with little between it compared to a desktop pc) to gauge how well things should perform with pc hardware. (which has inconsistant performance between driver versions)
 
Yep. That sounds about right from the snips that I read. It totally sounded like he just wanted something easy to develop on for a while. The article I read mentioned that the PC version was still coming out first, which leads me to believe that it is the "flagship" version. Besides, by the time this new game comes out, PCs will once again be far beyond the consoles.
 
Who really cares. All he made was engines. Do you remember the last time he actually made a good game. Doom 3 looked great but the game did suck it was boring and repetative. Even the engine is not that succesful not many games have been made with it, comparing Doom 3 engine to the quake 3 engine its a big fat joke. There are far better engines out there then Doom 3 engine.
 
5150Joker said:
Looks like us PC guys will get second hand xbox 360 engines from id in the future. Guess that's one high profile dev. gone to the dark side of console gaming. Guess PC gaming really is on the decline when you have important devs shift over to the shitty console platform.
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I am a happy gamer since I am not a PC snob and thus get to play the good games on both the PC and on the consoles.

:)
 
Everyone is going where the cash is. But, as others have said, people like carmack also like to have the best technical product out there, and soon after the XBOX360 comes out, where do you think development will shift? Furthermore, given that XBOX360 and Longhorn will start to converge, it is only a matter of time for direct cross-development between the two.

Put it simply, while PCs lack in diversity of gaming, if you are looking for the best "looking" games, the PC will always be where to go, and you can use a console for everything else.
 
You know, John Carmack does some great work, but I'm really wondering where the "X360 is great" while the "PS3 is a pain in the ass" beliefs are coming from here. The two are pretty similar in terms of technological setup: both use multi-core CPUs, both use standardized development APIs, and both have middleware oozing out of the development kits. I'm not seeing it, especially with Tim Sweeney saying that the PS3 is easy to develop for.

Of course, Unreal Engine 3 is official PS3 middleware, so I'd expect to hear that out of Sweeney.
 
Terpfen said:
while the "PS3 is a pain in the ass"
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Where did he even say that? I know someone mentioned it, but I didn't see him say anything negative about the ps3 at all.
 
Everything seems to get blown out of proportion to relate to/argue against people's beliefs and stances.

All he said was that he would develop on the 360 for about 6 months, and by then, some PC driver problems will hopefully get cleared up. You don't have to worry about drivers for consoles...
 
Tedium said:
Where did he even say that? I know someone mentioned it, but I didn't see him say anything negative about the ps3 at all.
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It is a direct quote, it is on the front page.
 
Wrench00 said:
Who really cares. All he made was engines. Do you remember the last time he actually made a good game. Doom 3 looked great but the game did suck it was boring and repetative. Even the engine is not that succesful not many games have been made with it, comparing Doom 3 engine to the quake 3 engine its a big fat joke. There are far better engines out there then Doom 3 engine.
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Your post sucks...
 
His D3 engine was disappointing and notice that no one is licensing it? He is not making much money either because D3 sold less than expected. He is now moving primarily to console development because that is where the money is.
 
Terpfen said:
You know, John Carmack does some great work, but I'm really wondering where the "X360 is great" while the "PS3 is a pain in the ass" beliefs are coming from here.
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I think the gaming public is coming to realize what we've known as developers for a long time. Carmack is a great programmer, but he's not the god that everyone makes him out to be. He's just very, very, very good at taking research that others have done and putting it into a game.
 
Staples said:
His Q3 engine was disappointing and notice that no one is licensing it? He is not making much money either because D3 sold less than expected. He is now moving primarily to console development because that is where the money is.
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Noone licensed the Q3 engine? Hmm I wonder what Soldier of Fortune 2, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor,RtCW, American Mcgee's Alice, Jedi Knight 2, and Heavy Metal: FAKK2 use. If you just made a typo and meant D3 then Quake 4 and Prey are two games from the D3 engine. Not alot but more are sure to come once he works with the 360 some more.
 
Torgo said:
I think the gaming public is coming to realize what we've known as developers for a long time. Carmack is a great programmer, but he's not the god that everyone makes him out to be. He's just very, very, very good at taking research that others have done and putting it into a game.
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I thought he was the first person to create a first person shooter for the PC. He figured out how to achieve it. That's what I got from the book about iD. Pretty revolutionary I think.
 
I'm the Dude said:
I thought he was the first person to create a first person shooter for the PC.
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Uh, no. Not the first. He was just able to create an engine for the PC that was revolutionary and the best for it's time. Some of his work was based on concepts that were pioneered by Looking Glass in the Ultima Underworld series.
Four years before DOOM (1993), Looking Glass revolutionized computer RPG and action gaming when it introduced the technology behind Ultima Underworld (1992) -- arguably the first real-time, first-person perspective games ever made. John Carmack saw the tech demo for Underworld in 1991 at CES and thought he could improve on the technology. From that inspiration (or challenge) came id Software's Wolfenstein 3D (1992), DOOM, and Quake. Another case in point: Looking Glass' System Shock was a solid shooter that outdid DOOM II (1994) in almost every way -- with a near perfect marriage of story, immersion, and action, it has been hailed as the "Thinking Man's DOOM." Though it sold well, it never reached the frenzied popularity of id's shooter. -- Source: Gamespy
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Torgo said:
I think the gaming public is coming to realize what we've known as developers for a long time. Carmack is a great programmer, but he's not the god that everyone makes him out to be. He's just very, very, very good at taking research that others have done and putting it into a game.
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Perhaps, but I'd still like to know what's fueling his opinions here. I'm not ascribing it to incompetence (and I'm not implying that you did), but these are just extremely weird comments.

At least there hasn't been any "Carmack's jealous that Doom 3's engine isn't middleware!" comments yet, I guess.
 
Bop said:
Noone licensed the Q3 engine? Hmm I wonder what Soldier of Fortune 2, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor,RtCW, American Mcgee's Alice, Jedi Knight 2, and Heavy Metal: FAKK2 use. If you just made a typo and meant D3 then Quake 4 and Prey are two games from the D3 engine. Not alot but more are sure to come once he works with the 360 some more.
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You are right. I meant to say D3.

Quake 4 is and ID 2nd party game and I think Enemy Territory is too. I think Prey is the only licensed game so far. It may be the last too. Unreal 3.0 looks a lot more impressive. Hell, Farcry does too.
 
Terpfen said:
You know, John Carmack does some great work, but I'm really wondering where the "X360 is great" while the "PS3 is a pain in the ass" beliefs are coming from here.
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Possibly from the fact that he's had sdks for both to play around with for while?

Just like all the other lower profile developers who have been saying exactly the same thing for the last 6 months. But obviously, not being "The John", they don't get as much attention.

John Carmack tends to pick his words carefully, he knows people listen when he talks, he's not just slating sony, he's trying to get them to improve. He did exactly the same thing a couple of years ago to get ATI to work on their drivers.

It worked, ATI responded with Catalyst and stopped having shit drivers.

Hopefully Sony will take the hint and raise their game.

For the record, the ps2 is regardarded as tough to work with aswell.
 
Torgo said:
Uh, no. Not the first. He was just able to create an engine for the PC that was revolutionary and the best for it's time. Some of his work was based on concepts that were pioneered by Looking Glass in the Ultima Underworld series.
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The Gamespy quote is just a little bit slanted towards extolling Looking Glass. Look at it this way, math was invented well before guys like Einstein and Newton, however the later are still considered great geniuses and original thinkers.
 
I'm the Dude said:
The Gamespy quote is just a little bit slanted towards extolling Looking Glass. Look at it this way, math was invented well before guys like Einstein and Newton, however the later are still considered great geniuses and original thinkers.
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I would say math was "discovered" rather than "invented". ;)
 
He praised Sony for possibly providing an open system to developers in his keynote, I believe his gripe was with the development tools for the system.
 
Actually, if you read the front page of HardOCP now, Carmack basically says that the console hype is simply that: hype, and mentioned the rule of half. Hehe.

Edit: To briefly quote: " He emphasized that most of the hype that both Sony and Microsoft are building about the performance and power of their systems is really just that: hype. He said that people should use the “rule of half” when comparing the clock speeds of the console CPUs to that of modern day PC processors. "

Basically, while they may develope games for consoles in a more focused manner, the most powerful and technically advanced games will still be on the PC for some time to come.
 
I'm the Dude said:
The Gamespy quote is just a little bit slanted towards extolling Looking Glass.
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And why shouldn't Looking Glass be extolled? That company was revolutionary in what it contributed to gaming. As for Carmack, I'm not slighting him in the least. He is brilliant and a programming genius. I just don't drink the Kool-Aid along with everyone else and recognize what his influences are.
 
One point, people have not brought up, is the fact that XNA tools will make it much easier to program for both XBOX360 and PC simultaneously. Perhaps that is why Carmack is going to XBOX360 instead of PS3. Video games are a business, and it is a much more intelligent, business decision, to develope for two platforms rather then one, and then port it over later. We all know how bad ports can be ..... *cough HALO *cough.
 
Staples said:
His Q3 engine was disappointing and notice that no one is licensing it? He is not making much money either because D3 sold less than expected. He is now moving primarily to console development because that is where the money is.
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Ha.

HAHAHAHAHA

No one licensing the D3 engine? Quake IV and Quake wars. You can bet more titles are on their way. D3's only competition is Unreal 3 which isn't even going to be out for a year.

How many games are running the CryEngine? zero (though I heard of a game that was useing the engine but it never got released)

How many games are running Source? One, and it sucked and was fully of bugs.

D3 and Unreal3 are where it's at right now.
 
MartinX said:
Possibly from the fact that he's had sdks for both to play around with for while?
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If it was a commentary on the SDKs, he would've limited his comments to "X360 has a better development kit right now." Instead he commented on the hardware--and both consoles have similar hardware setups. It's weird as hell.


Just like all the other lower profile developers who have been saying exactly the same thing for the last 6 months. But obviously, not being "The John", they don't get as much attention.
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Such as? We've got some developers saying both consoles are easy to develop for, and a couple of individual platform developers complaining about the quirks on their respective platforms, or the transition from single-core CPUs to multi-core CPUs.


Hopefully Sony will take the hint and raise their game.
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Given Sony's continued announcements about their middleware, they've been raising their game since the PS3's inception.


For the record, the ps2 is regardarded as tough to work with aswell.
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Yes, it is, due to a goofy system architecture and a limited amount of RAM, not to mention some of the programming tricks required to get things running acceptably. That doesn't mean the PS3 is automatically committing the same sins as the PS2. Actually, given what we know about the consoles right now, it looks like the PS3 is one of the easiest platforms to develop for in a long while, with task distribution among the Cell's various sub-processors being the hardest thing to deal with. At least the developers aren't struggling with getting the right code running this time.

Again: Carmack's comments are just really weird.
 
jon_k said:
No one licensing the D3 engine? Quake IV and Quake wars. You can bet more titles are on their way. D3's only competition is Unreal 3 which isn't even going to be out for a year.
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As I stated in a latter post, those two games are 2nd party ID games. I think only Prey is the only game so far to have licensed the engine.
 
Staples said:
His Q3 engine was disappointing and notice that no one is licensing it? He is not making much money either because D3 sold less than expected. He is now moving primarily to console development because that is where the money is.
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Most uninformed post ever.

Look people, get a goddamn grip. Everything is being so sensationalized around here lately. If you take 3 minutes to read his keynote (or a summary) you'd see he is not excusively developing for any console. Expand your knowledge of the situation before you spew forth pure crap intended to make yourself seem in the know.
 
Well I intend on buying an XBox 360, but I certainly dont plan on selling the PC for cash to buy it!

This is America, you can have both... BTW I played Doom III on my PC, and it screwed my Radeon 9800 Pro... caused pixelation to occur, even on other games after I played it (not overclocked). AT replaced it for free.. havent put that game back in my PC since.

But, I bought it for XBox, and lemme tell you on a 57" HDTV with surround and subwoofer... at night with the lights out, when your in that hall following the dead imp in the glowing jar... spooooooky fun!
 
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