Noob audio questions, please inform!

D

Dolph

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
264
Hey guys,
Ive been so bent on getting all of my gaming experience tweaked and up to date with overclocking and displays (check out some of my recent pics of my vega inspired budget setup here )

And ive almost forgotten all about my audio and music experience...
For the past 7 years ive been using my Logitech z-5500's (original version) thinkin they were the top computer speakers, until recently ive been exploring other areas of the forums and realizing wow have i been mistaken. I found our old 5.1 setup, replaced a knob of the LG's receiver volume control and hooked it up to my onboard sound via Optical cable for a 2.1 test and WOW is there a difference in quality moving from computer speakers. I have in storage a pair of Realistic Mach One's from 1979, and a Realistic STA-2xx something receiver, can't remember the model. If i were to consider using these speakers, which from what i remember when my dad had them they sounded absolutely unreal, what i would need to make this work to the best potential. I think the only hookups they have are the RCA L & R cables, is there a proper sound card i should be looking into? Also, i know that i can hook up an additional 2 speakers to this receiver, is there a problem having my Mach ones @ 8 ohm vs the other 2 LG speakers i was considering being at 4 ohms? I know the mach ones have a switch to go down to 4 ohm. To that note as well is there a major difference between the impedance level of the speakers?

I apologize in advance for my ignorance with this topic.
 
You should do a little research on your receiver and find out what kind of output it can do into 4 Ohms versus 8 Ohms. Other than that, I would actually recommend a USB DAC over a sound card. I have an Audioengine D1 right now and it's pretty solid.
 
Usb dac is easier than a sound card. If those speakers and amp still work, you don't need anything else. Set up properly, a great pair of stereo speakers will "surround" you very nicely.
 
Interesting, i wouldn't have expected a usb card would work as well as a regular sound card.
 
Dock Ellis said:
You should do a little research on your receiver and find out what kind of output it can do into 4 Ohms versus 8 Ohms. Other than that, I would actually recommend a USB DAC over a sound card. I have an Audioengine D1 right now and it's pretty solid.
Click to expand...

I think that's actually what I'm looking for- yet I'm still aghast that nice things like the D1 come with 1/8" outputs in place of 1/4" outputs. I do have a good link for my HD555's, so it shouldn't be a problem. One question though- is the 'analog output' controlled by the volume or is it line-level?
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I think that's actually what I'm looking for- yet I'm still aghast that nice things like the D1 come with 1/8" outputs in place of 1/4" outputs. I do have a good link for my HD555's, so it shouldn't be a problem. One question though- is the 'analog output' controlled by the volume or is it line-level?
Click to expand...

Output impedance on that DAC is a little high, might make the HD 555's bass sound loose.
 
I found the model of the receiver, its the Realistic STA-2000D. Im not sure where to find the specific specs on this receiver, would anyone know more information about this that could help me out with some of my questions? Those coupled with the Mach one's and a USB Audio DAC would be the best setup i could have with these components? Also would be bad for me to output to my speakers and the LG ones, to have four for more of a "surround" audio experience?
 
Impulse said:
Output impedance on that DAC is a little high, might make the HD 555's bass sound loose.
Click to expand...

I've only used it with my SR60is (which arguably don't really need to be amped, it's more about the bit rate), but from what I've read most people enjoy the HD555/D1 combo. Any loss of precision is pretty negligible.

Edit:

Check out this review.
It's pretty well-detailed and has a lot of comparisons.

IdiotInCharge said:
I think that's actually what I'm looking for- yet I'm still aghast that nice things like the D1 come with 1/8" outputs in place of 1/4" outputs. I do have a good link for my HD555's, so it shouldn't be a problem. One question though- is the 'analog output' controlled by the volume or is it line-level?
Click to expand...

I don't believe that the D1 has a line level solution.
 
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Dock Ellis said:
It looks like the STA-2000D can only handle 4 Ohms into two channels.
Click to expand...

Ok, i clearly need to learn more about this, im not sure if it will run the 4 speakers. What if my Mach ones were switched to 8 ohm? , i would love to test the 4 speaker theory, for this im gunna need either the sound card or that audioengine d1 24-bit DAC, which the more i read about it the better it seems and mobile which i never really considered, but will probably take advantage of.

Im going to at least use the 2 Mach ones, so i think im gunna pull the trigger on this D1, found a pair on amazon.ca with free shipping. Ill be pulling the trigger soon if anyone has any last input on that topic.

Please more input, suggestions or information for the speaker configuration if anyone has more.
 
Dock Ellis said:
I've only used it with my SR60is (which arguably don't really need to be amped, it's more about the bit rate), but from what I've read most people enjoy the HD555/D1 combo. Any loss of precision is pretty negligible.

Edit:

Check out this review.
It's pretty well-detailed and has a lot of comparisons.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's less precise per se, just that things like bass tone can and will be affected when you pair an amp with high output impedance and headphones with low impedance. You may very well be enjoying the effect tho, have you compared it to other amps? See here:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-impedance-explained.html?m=1

The D1's headphone output impedance is right on it's specs. I'm not knocking the D1 in general, I've seem plenty of good reviews on it, mostly in use as a DAC though... That Head Fi review seems fairly subjective, even though the guy has an impressive amount of gear, but page-fulls of text with that kinda vocabulary and no measurements just make me cringe a little.
 
I have the D1 coming in from amazon, and some speaker wire, speakers wont be that far from the amp,... like 10-15 feet probably, not much reason to go bigger than 16 gauge apparently. But i do also have a 10 band equalizer. Maybe i missed the exact point but the DAC is just the converter right it doesn't refine the audio at all? Then there is value in putting my equalizer in the loop as well to get that extra precision?

Computer -> dac -> equalizer -> receiver -> speakers?
 
4 ohm impedance will take a much better receiver to drive especially if the speakers are inefficient (say around 86db at 1 watt or less). If you are going for a surround sound setup using 4 ohm speakers you're probably going to need a top of the line receiver if you want to play at high volumes otherwise you will trip it into protection mode. Most speakers are 8ohm so maybe you want to look at getting different speakers. Or you could look at a top of the line receiver from a few years back like the Denon 3805 or an older Yamaha RX-V1000. You can pick up something like that used pretty cheap. Or you could get a receiver with pre outs and use seperate power amps to drive the speakers.
I have two 4 ohm speakers and a stereo rated to play at 150 wpc at 4ohms. No problem at high volumes except when the weather is really hot it will trip into protection mode.

So basically don't bother buying 4 ohm speakers if you don't already own them, it can be a headache.

Reading through again... If it was me I'd just use the vintage amp and speakers, I bet it sounds much better than crappy 5.1

These guys know a lot about vintage audio. great forum. Looks like your vintage amp is 75 wpc.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=377178
 
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Very informative thank you, i will leave my setup as is with the 2 x vintage @ 8ohm, and if i look into getting into the second channel ill look for some other 8 ohm speakers. Also there is merit to adding in the equalizer? Mind you, the toslink is going to be coming from my on board audio going into the D1 DAC, so im not sure where the sound quality is coming from exactly.
 
Why are you taking audio out thru an optical path from on-board sound to the D1 DAC? If you bought a D1 I imagine you wanted to bypass on-board sound, so just hook it up via USB. Going from one average DAC (on-board) to a better one (D1) seems confusing to me... Not sure why you'd do that.

PC/USB -> D1 DAC -> receiver/amp -> speakers IMO

If the receiver's really old and doesn't have any sort of equalization then you can put the other component in, shouldn't be strictly necessary tho. You'd only use an EQ to correct flaws/shortcomings in the equipment or tailor the sound to a particular preference.
 
Impulse said:
Why are you taking an optical path from on board sound to the D1 DAC? If you bought a D1 I imagine you wanted to bypass on-board sound, so just hook it up via USB. Going from one average DAC to a better one seems confusing to me... Not sure why you'd do that.

PC/USB -> D1 DAC -> receiver/amp -> speakers IMO
Click to expand...

Ahh, thank you, i figured it would just bypass but i realised the main focus of the DAC is the USB connection. Don`t forget to put my possible 10 band equalizer in that equation! Im going to assume since no on has commented, that it is a good idea.
 
Impulse said:
I edited the post above to add a comment about the EQ.
Click to expand...

Ahh thank you, i remember from before we had to use the equalizer because it sounded much better than just the receiver, which is what i wasn`t specifically understanding is that that having the audio go through USB -. DAC (which i didn`t know if it did anything with the sound other than convert it ) and to analog, so if thats the case, im gunna have to go ahead and put the equalizer in.
 
Before you go out and spend a lot of money you should just hook up your Realistic receiver to your PCs onboard sound with a simple stereo cable and have a listen and see what you think to the vintage amp and speakers. the onboard DAC probably won't be brilliant but to be honest a more expensive DAC won't make too huge of a difference.

If you don't like the sound of your vintage stuff and you want to buy a modern 5.1 receiver and new speakers you won't need a DAC as you can use hdmi or optical out on your motherboard and use the DAC in a modern receiver.

Some of the vintage stuff can be worth a fair bit still if you decide to sell them, not sure how good those realistics were as it was a little before my time.

All you need to hook up your pc to your receiver is one of these $0.75

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?seq=1&format=2&p_id=665&CAWELAID=1329452173&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CPqqh7mEw7MCFXHLtAodRyMACw
 
He already bought the d1 dac and come on man. Analogue onboard audio will sound like flat paint compared to the usb dac.

Don't know why people are trying to defend onboard audio. Realteks crappy drivers alone are worth paying to avoid using onboard.
 
spaceman said:
He already bought the d1 dac and come on man. Analogue onboard audio will sound like flat paint compared to the usb dac.

Don't know why people are trying to defend onboard audio. Realteks crappy drivers alone are worth paying to avoid using onboard.
Click to expand...

After using ASUS' software, I'll take Realtek's any day. They make it simple, and it just works; it even works well if your motherboard manufacturer was paying attention, though you do get what you pay for.
 
spaceman said:
He already bought the d1 dac and come on man. Analogue onboard audio will sound like flat paint compared to the usb dac.

Don't know why people are trying to defend onboard audio. Realteks crappy drivers alone are worth paying to avoid using onboard.
Click to expand...

I'm not defending it per se, I'd never run onboard audio personally, but I also wouldn't splash out on anything until I knew it was worth buying. if you are using digital out there is no difference between onboard and a soundcard because the DAC is in the receiver. There is no point buying a USB DAC and then deciding the equipment you have sounds like crap and you want to buy knew stuff, I didn't see where he said he already had the DAC...

But it also depends what mobo you have and what DAC is used, personally I think the focus should be 90% speakers and source material 10% everything else combined in terms of sound quality.
 
Onboard analogue sucks compared to an external dac.

Onboard analogue sucks compared to an external dac.

Onboard analogue sucks compared to an external dac.

Onboard analogue sucks compared to an external dac.

Onboard analogue sucks compared to an external dac.

Onboard analogue sucks compared to an external dac.

:D
 
Lol, Have you done a double blind ABX comparison? And are the results published in a peer reviewed journal?:D
 
matteos said:
I'm not defending it per se, I'd never run onboard audio personally, but I also wouldn't splash out on anything until I knew it was worth buying. if you are using digital out there is no difference between onboard and a soundcard because the DAC is in the receiver. There is no point buying a USB DAC and then deciding the equipment you have sounds like crap and you want to buy knew stuff, I didn't see where he said he already had the DAC...

But it also depends what mobo you have and what DAC is used, personally I think the focus should be 90% speakers and source material 10% everything else combined in terms of sound quality.
Click to expand...


Im not sure if i did specify specifically that i bought the DAC already but yeah, i ordered it from amazon already.

Luckily the D1 doesn't use either of the creative/asus software. I know the speakers/receiver/eq sound amazing, i just wasn't sure about the connectivity to the computer and what specifically the role this D1 DAC plays. This system is effectively only costing me 1 x D1 DAC @ 170$ CAN, i have everything else in working condition. If i didn't have all of these parts on hand, yes absolutely i would look into a newer model receiver and connect via digital, something NOT on the cheap-end as to never have to buy another receiver for a very long time, until i crave more than what this system can output (unlikely for awhile), i will stick to total money output at a minimum for the maximum quality/experience i can get :). Which by the sounds of the posts here, and research i think im about to experience :D. Especially coming from an Onboard + logitech z-5500's for the past 6-7 years ;)

Im going to my apt on the weekend to pick up the speakers/receiver/eq and bring them home to get a few things repaired in the meantime of waiting for the DAC to come in, which should be in the next week or two, The volume cracks a little when you turn up the volumn, i just need to get it cleaned a bit, very easy to fix I've heard, and i will keep everyone posted when i get the DAC to show my resulting experience, very excited!!

Thanks everyone who gave their advice, very much appreciated!
 
Dolph said:
Ahh, thank you, i figured it would just bypass but i realised the main focus of the DAC is the USB connection. Don`t forget to put my possible 10 band equalizer in that equation! Im going to assume since no on has commented, that it is a good idea.
Click to expand...

Optical and USB are actually both digital and will both bypass your onboard sound chip. Optical offers a higher sample rate through the D1, but most of your audio probably won't need 192KHz.
 
Alright, so apparently the STA-2000 works , but it needs some repairs done to it, the volume cracks pretty badly when you turn it up, its hard to find someone who can do some repairs on it, i might need to buy a new receiver, the speakers are in great condition, so i can use those. Firstly does anyone have any possible suggestion for a new receiver? Something that will last me a long time and can support my Mach One's, and i have room to upgrade into later? Secondly, would i still have use for this Audioengine DAC to go from USB -> analog, or would it be useful to just use the Toslink connection straight into a newer receiver?
 
It starts here with amps

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-380

$30-50 will get you a nice little t-amp that will actually sound amazing with your speakers.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=252-125

$100 gets you a decent amp and inputs and an output you could use for a sub.

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V37...lp_14269301_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1352773018&sr=1-3

$160-250

Good receiver. Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo. All decent. I think Yamaha sound the best myself.
 
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Hmm thank you for the links. I was looking at that yamaha one earlier actually. The question is these speakers have a 15" woofer, in each. Not sure how a 5.1 audio setup would output all levels to a left and right speaker, is there just a 2.0 setting instead of a 2.1? If im only using the speakers as mid-high's im not utilizing what i have really. I eventually want room to upgrade, thats the biggest thing, i will eventually move to better high end speakers with a proper sub, i want a receiver that can handle the pure left/right, this yamaha could do that correct? For that matter, any newer receiver should be able to just output a pure left/right signal without a sub shouldn't it? AGAIN i apologize for my ignorance on my topic, just trying to not get the wrong idea's in my head. Also if anyone could input on the DAC, or if i should sell that if i were to go with the newer receiver.
 
A receiver can play any format. 2, 2.1, 4.1, 5.1. It is the most flexible of all by far and you could do optical output or the usb dac. Flexible.
 
spaceman said:
A receiver can play any format. 2, 2.1, 4.1, 5.1. It is the most flexible of all by far and you could do optical output or the usb dac. Flexible.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for that clerification. Now is there any reason to use the DAC or would it be the same as using the optical?
 
Modem receivers can be configured for full range speakers or otherwise, sub or no sub, etc. The better ones have stuff like Audyssey which not only correctly configures itself to your speakers but will actually calibrate itself based on their placement, compensate for room acoustics, etc. There wouldn't be much of a point in using the DAC if you're getting a full fledged AVR.
 
Impulse said:
Modem receivers can be configured for full range speakers or otherwise, sub or no sub, etc. The better ones have stuff like Audyssey which not only correctly configures itself to your speakers but will actually calibrate itself based on their placement, compensate for room acoustics, etc. There wouldn't be much of a point in using the DAC if you're getting a full fledged AVR.
Click to expand...

In your/others opionions if i go with a full 'higher' end newer receiver, would i be best to sell the DAC, or possibly refuse the package?
 
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Dolph said:
In your/others opionions if i go with a full 'higher' end newer receiver, would i be best to sell the DAC, or possibly refuse the package?
Click to expand...

You should be able to return it for a restocking fee at worst.
 
I have nothing of value to add to the discussion at hand, but I just wanted to tell you that I think your setup is awesome. Can't wait to see it when everything's done!

Oh, and I recently bought a Denon AVR-1613 based on others suggestions. Don't have it hooked up yet though so I can't tell you how it sounds, but then I'm coming from PC speakers and headphones, so I'm sure anything will sound amazing to me, plus I have a good bit of hearing damage so....
 
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If you bought the A1 at Amazon you can just refuse shipping and save yourself the return shipping cost, refund might just take a little bit longer. I'm partial to Denon receivers myself because I've set up a few so I'm familiar with them and they're generally pretty well regarded. Some people seem to favor the Audyssey correction algorithm that Denon/Onkyo use too, tho I haven't really compared it to say, Yamaha's or anything like that, so I don't have much of a basis for comparison.
 
Just got the Yamaha RX-473 in from futureshop, on sale for 399.99. Now, im using optical connectiong to run my 2 x Mach ones, but theres no base signals going through, its just high end, i thought it was possible to run these in any configuration independent of each connection type. I see that there is audio L & R via RCA, but i would have required my DAC to be used for that, is there a way to use this optical connection to output full signals to each channel?
 
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