Next Xbox Will Block Used Games?

Dreaz

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I hope this is true.

I don't buy used console games as is, but as there is essentially no used market for PC games, you would think I must be getting charged out the nose, right? Far from it.

The same sale structure will prevail in this (supposed) new console game market.

I will personally travel to wherever the last Gamestop store is when it closes its doors permanently and throw vegetables. That place is The Worst.

This is absolutely no reason to think this. If you look at current xbox and PSN games "on demand," they often sale for MSRP or higher. Steam is able to fluctuate prices because the developers control those costs; microsoft and sony control their respective systems and they have shown 0 effort to price war. I mean, why should they?

I agree a steam-like system on the next gens is nice, but there's zero proof that such a thing will occur with this move. In fact, we have only proof of the exact opposite.
 
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As for implementation I agree it will probably be a steam like variation, with a SN from the game disc registered to your account, as for offline play that can be simply added via protected auto expiring permission cookies, thus if you fail to log in for a month you will be cut off from playing your game, if you transfer the disc to another console the SN will be denied unless you have the valid Live account its registered to.

Another perhaps retarded method would be to enable the disc player (blu-ray?) to burn a ID code onto the disc upon registration which would be required to play full content, thus still allowing some basic play but restricting full content to compliant users.

It could always go full cloud status, with no offline game purchases, perhaps even streaming titles (with modern bandwidth, should be no big issue).

Thereby eliminating the resale market as we know it. Although I would expect law suits that will fail to prove a liability.

Of course we can expect our amazing pirating community to come up with a work around such as an imitation Live network, that will be accessible to modified console users.

Either way, I support (opinion wise) the console market, as consoles continue to push developers to make fun games based on sandbox hardware specifications, although a slight negative impact has been felt by the PC community, MMORPG's are still dominated by PC users IMO, as well as any oldschool FPS player. Not to mention any self considered PC gamer/enthusiast has a hobby in addition to an addiction, as working on my PC is always interesting and exciting (when its new hardware time).
 

Trimlock

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I don't buy used console games as is, but as there is essentially no used market for PC games, you would think I must be getting charged out the nose, right? Far from it.

The same sale structure will prevail in this (supposed) new console game market.

You can't compare a wildly open standard to a very closed standard and hope the pricing scheme's stay the same.

With the consoles you are talking about very few developers ever being able to experiment with. With the PC you are talking about thousand of developers experimenting with anything they can. Even if you limit the possible 'hurtful' used game market there is no other factor in the closed standard to encourage price competition.

With the PC we have at least Steam which opens up these smaller developers to offer (sometimes) great games for a lesser price with an open store that consumers can search for. You don't have this with consoles.
 

cthulhuiscool

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I think they are not gonna do it and this is why. Sony has already announced they plan on releasing info after microsoft. If MS does this and then sony allows used discs they will be screwed from the getgo, so its just a risk they won't wanna take. they may be testing the waters by releasing the rumor to see how sony responds but unless theres some shady back room collusion we'll probably be fine.
 

sfsuphysics

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Well, the difference is, IMO, Blizzard game's are online games and whatever they do, is limited to each individual games they make. Not a huge fan of Diablo 3 myself, but it HAS to be online because they wanted real money trading, so items and drops have to be generated server side, for example..
What about a game like Starcraft 2? You don't need to be online for that game unless you play online multiplayer, however you still need to tie the game to your bnet account and as a result can't resell it if you're a person like me who only cares about the single player missions. So yeah they killed any resale market of their games. Which luckily is just Diablo,, Starcraft and WoW, but I can imagine it on a larger scale....
 

Trimlock

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What about a game like Starcraft 2? You don't need to be online for that game unless you play online multiplayer, however you still need to tie the game to your bnet account and as a result can't resell it if you're a person like me who only cares about the single player missions. So yeah they killed any resale market of their games. Which luckily is just Diablo,, Starcraft and WoW, but I can imagine it on a larger scale....

Only reason that really worked out for them with SC2 and Diablo is their games posses quite a bit of replay value. Even if you don't play it often they still make patches, run online tournaments and a rampant modding community to keep things interesting.

Now if they came out with this strategy early on, while their Bnet was still in its early stages, I don't see it working too well. They did pull this off at the right time really.
 

AOM

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This is absolutely no reason to think this. If you look at current xbox and PSN games "on demand," they often sale for MSRP or higher. Steam is able to fluctuate prices because the developers control those costs; microsoft and sony control their respective systems and they have shown 0 effort to price war. I mean, why should they?

I agree a steam-like system on the next gens is nice, but there's zero proof that such a thing will occur with this move. In fact, we have only proof of the exact opposite.


This is completely untrue, at least for PSN. The prices are controlled by the publisher, they decide when to put their games on sale, for how much and how long, not Sony. Sadly lots of games, 2+ years old that people would like a sale on and aren't the new thing anymore sit at full msrp as you stated.

You would think publishers would look at steam sales and learn that dropping in price would make them some additional money plus spread word of mouth about their titles that are otherwise selling no copies but it doesn't happen. You would also think that more of these older games would have a permanent price drop to at least 50-75% off after being out for over 2yrs.

Some have dropped in price but not many sadly. To get back on topic, I don't purchase used games myself so that doesn't matter to me, but I do resell some titles and trade some in from time to time, so if this happens I would probably buy less games. I wouldn't take a chance on some of the titles that I have purchased in the past ie: lesser known titles or ones that took a mediocre score or people bashed on. I'm sure many would do the same as well.

Honestly I think this would be a horrible move for the industry as a whole imo.
 

Nytegard

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Honestly I think this would be a horrible move for the industry as a whole imo.

While it would be a horrible move for the industry, sooner or later it will happen. It just probably won't be the next generation. This is not a Microsoft only thing. Sony and Nintendo also want to kill off the used game markets. It's just that all of them know that whoever is the first to attempt this will suffer massive repercussions. Just look at the PSP Go for example. But sooner or later I can see a truce being made between the console makers, especially if Valve or Apple gets involved in console gaming (and not just the casual land games).
 

DW-UK

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I think that the decision to block a used game will come down to the owner or distributor of the game. Not Microsoft. The Xbox may merely provide a unique Xbox device ID feature which can be optionally used by software distributors, by testing the ID against an online account setting. They can already do something like this now, on a PC too.
 

XacTactX

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So Steam for xbox but with physical media.... GENIUS!

At first I was also thinking of this but I think there is one notable difference: Steam has SERIOUS sales multiple times every year. Mass Effect 2 for $5, Bastion for $3.75, Portal 2 for $5, CS GO for $7.50, all one month ago during the Christmas sale. M$ will never have sales of this caliber.
 

Ashbringer

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You can't really compare Steam to what Microsoft is going to do.

Firstly, Xbox 720 is just that machine. We know Steam will run on multiple platforms, and not be limited. Secondly, the games go with you. It's not locked to your PC's ID. You have an account, then those are your games.

3rd, games are not going to be $60. They are well priced on Steam, and prices drop accordingly. Xbox 720 games will be $60 regardless of what you think of them.

Finally, there's already talk about reselling games you've bought to others. While I'm sure Steam is against it, Microsoft and Sony will have to deal with the reality that people may want to resell their digital goods.

BTW, you can certainly kiss the console generation good bye. I don't this flying with consumers.
 

michael.pa2

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You know something like this will happen,sooner or later. They did it to PC games,so why should console gamers be immune?
 

kbrickley

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I think we are still one more generation away from this type of change (although I would agree it is probably coming) ... until the consoles eliminate physical media completely and go all cloud a change like this is a walking lawsuit ... I think both Sony and MS will continue to expand their online features on the upcoming generation of consoles so that the next generation after that (in 5-7 years) will be 100% online based ... at that point they have a shot at implementing a change like that since they can convert all games to "subscriptions" rather than purchases, if they only exist on the MS and Sony servers ... while there are physical copies it is too hard to justify and control restrictions on the second hand market
 

dgz

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What about a game like Starcraft 2? You don't need to be online for that game unless you play online multiplayer, however you still need to tie the game to your bnet account and as a result can't resell it if you're a person like me who only cares about the single player missions. So yeah they killed any resale market of their games. Which luckily is just Diablo,, Starcraft and WoW, but I can imagine it on a larger scale....

Hey, I thought used Blizzard games market was big. Did they finally managed to kill it? People tie games to different accounts I guess. It's not the right way but Blizzard is asking for it with that stupid restriction.
 

Jagger100

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Whether this is true or not, its probably really a trial balloon. They get the idea out in public and see what the reaction is. Then if its too negative they decide against it and make a press announcement how that was never the plan.
 

Bman123

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The only problem I see is the always on connection. there has to be a way to play the games offline. I really don't care about there not being a used game market. Don't buy shit games and you won't have to worry about selling them and if a game is really good then I feel it should be bought brand new.

Console gamers in general tend to buy the same shit every year anyways, call of duty, madden and nba 2k
 

Ryoohki360

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Last time i bought a pc games in a game store was 5 years ago... Got tired of earing clerk said : pc sucks why you no buy Xbox360...

Steam ftw. Even when i used the first xbox, i never bought a used game, but we did take our games at other friends house.

Shouldn't be complicated to offer both, digital and physical on a console. Release all games 0 day and pre order like they do on steam, put who know the consequences of it will use it, other won't..
 

joseardzm

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I understand this as an effort to improve sales, just like in itunes or stream conent where games only work for 1 account. The problem here is that this is physical media, I think that it will be fair that each game could be used in up to 3 accounts.

Also GameStop or other stores could have a way to unlock the CD and make it universal, so that they can still sell/rent games. Until a used game is sold, the lock should return.

just my 2 cents
 

RedSh1rt

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All of the console makers want this to happen. They probably think along the lines of developers who argue that every pirated copy of their game is a lost sale. Every used copy sold is a lost new copy sold... Ridiculous I know.

Console makes do have an interest in making this happen... There's a reason console games are usually a little more expensive than PC games - They get royalties for every new game sold on their platform. Think how many used games get sold, and resold time and time again... each time that happens MS/Sony/Nintendo don't get their $10 cut.

If I MS or Sony I'd be working with my direct competitors do ensure we all implement it. The risks are so high in the console market (Screwing up a console generation could collapse a Sony and do severe damage to Microsoft) that it makes sense to work together on DRM. Besides I seem to recall a few months ago Sony patenting some technology that links copies of media to hardware.

Aha found it: http://www.gamechup.com/sony-patent-new-tech-that-suppresses-second-hand-game-sales/

This is going to happen, whether in this gen or the next.
 

TechLarry

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This is headed for the courts if it happens, and I hope they get their asses handed to them if it does.
 

TechLarry

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So a used copy is a lost sale. LIfe it tough, and so is business. I just don't see how they can destroy a product that someone has already paid for (and this is what they are doing - Remotely destroying a paid for product).

Maybe the lawmakers will finally realize "Hey, maybe we gave these jackels just a little too much rope to work with" and it's time to think about consumers for a change.
 

Wshmaster0

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What's funny is that half you people who are saying this is a silly idea, all have Steam accounts with games you purchased that can't be resold, lent out or given to other people.. and with one or more stipulations that you have to be online to play (minus off-line mode).
 

dgz

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What's funny is that half you people who are saying this is a silly idea, all have Steam accounts with games you purchased that can't be resold, lent out or given to other people.. and with one or more stipulations that you have to be online to play (minus off-line mode).

The Steam situation may change soon.
 

kbrickley

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So a used copy is a lost sale. LIfe it tough, and so is business. I just don't see how they can destroy a product that someone has already paid for (and this is what they are doing - Remotely destroying a paid for product).

Maybe the lawmakers will finally realize "Hey, maybe we gave these jackels just a little too much rope to work with" and it's time to think about consumers for a change.

While they are dealing with physical products they will be constrained since the courts and the law have been pretty consistent on the first sale doctrine ... where all bets are off is on digital media

While we had a lengthy discussion (or argument :) ) on the German law affecting Steam and the requirement for the sale of digital games a few days back, so far the other digital media have been treated totally different than their physical counterparts ... if I buy a CD I can sell it (digital album I cannot), buy a physical magazine subscription I can sell or give away the magazines (digital I cannot), buy a Blu Ray or DVD I can sell it or give it away (digital I cannot), and for PC software similar rules are going into place

Once physical media goes away completely I think the rules probably do change and although the courts and laws can try and prolong that transition I think it is ultimately coming as more digital switches to subscription based models rather than ownership models ... the consumer will still have a choice (whether to subscribe/lease or not to subscribe/lease) but I think their choice of transferring ownership will go away eventually and the lawmakers/courts should let the markets determine whether this will be a good thing or a dismal failure ;)
 

Dreaz

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What's funny is that half you people who are saying this is a silly idea, all have Steam accounts with games you purchased that can't be resold, lent out or given to other people.. and with one or more stipulations that you have to be online to play (minus off-line mode).

Please stop comparing it to Steam; we are dealing with completely different ecosystems. For one, Steam games are routinely on sale at used prices, and for another Steam games work on any computer, not just a Dell or HP.

I have zero trust in Microsoft, Sony, or console developers reducing the prices of their games if this goes through. Like I asked before, why should they? An exclusive game can only be bought on its respective system. For example, let's say Halo 10 comes out on Xbox720 with this new system. Why would the game ever go below $60? There is zero competition in the market, so what would drive the price of the game down? Because developers are nice? Is that what we're banking on here?
 

Babbster

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Please stop comparing it to Steam; we are dealing with completely different ecosystems. For one, Steam games are routinely on sale at used prices, and for another Steam games work on any computer, not just a Dell or HP.

I have zero trust in Microsoft, Sony, or console developers reducing the prices of their games if this goes through. Like I asked before, why should they? An exclusive game can only be bought on its respective system. For example, let's say Halo 10 comes out on Xbox720 with this new system. Why would the game ever go below $60? There is zero competition in the market, so what would drive the price of the game down? Because developers are nice? Is that what we're banking on here?
There's "zero competition?" I wasn't aware that there was only one publisher per console, nor was I aware that only one FPS franchise exists on the Xbox.

I would also note that there are game publishers that reduce prices faster than others. For example, Ubisoft tends to be pretty aggressive about it, reducing prices as sales of a game fall off (AC3 was recently on sale at Gamestop for all platforms). Even EA makes big moves on some of their franchises, but strangely not on others (the Bioware games, for example, get discounted relatively fast).

All of these prices are determined by the publisher. Microsoft still gets to take their licensing fees but that would be an excuse to keep a 2-year-old game at $25 instead of $20, not at $40+.

As for the original story, I don't believe the speculation that the next Xbox will require an Internet connection to play. It shuts out too many customers and Microsoft wants more customers, not fewer. This being the case, I also don't believe the rumor that the new console will prevent running used games.

I know the publishers say they hate the used games market but the truth is more complicated than that. Gamestop, being the highest profile used game seller, also sells huge volumes of new games. Putting that company out of business, or even causing it to shut down a lot of stores (which they'd have to do if the used game market dried up), isn't in the game publishers' best interest. The only way they could compensate for that loss would be to increase retailer margins on new games (there's a reason most department stores don't stock older games in depth) and I doubt they're interested in doing so.
 

Dreaz

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There's "zero competition?" I wasn't aware that there was only one publisher per console, nor was I aware that only one FPS franchise exists on the Xbox.

I would also note that there are game publishers that reduce prices faster than others. For example, Ubisoft tends to be pretty aggressive about it, reducing prices as sales of a game fall off (AC3 was recently on sale at Gamestop for all platforms). Even EA makes big moves on some of their franchises, but strangely not on others (the Bioware games, for example, get discounted relatively fast).

All of these prices are determined by the publisher. Microsoft still gets to take their licensing fees but that would be an excuse to keep a 2-year-old game at $25 instead of $20, not at $40+.

As for the original story, I don't believe the speculation that the next Xbox will require an Internet connection to play. It shuts out too many customers and Microsoft wants more customers, not fewer. This being the case, I also don't believe the rumor that the new console will prevent running used games.

I know the publishers say they hate the used games market but the truth is more complicated than that. Gamestop, being the highest profile used game seller, also sells huge volumes of new games. Putting that company out of business, or even causing it to shut down a lot of stores (which they'd have to do if the used game market dried up), isn't in the game publishers' best interest. The only way they could compensate for that loss would be to increase retailer margins on new games (there's a reason most department stores don't stock older games in depth) and I doubt they're interested in doing so.

One-time sales are dependent on the store, not the publisher. Reduced MSRP is up to the publisher.
 

LeviathanZERO

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MS has responded.
You may want to have a sit down....
The manufacturer has responded to our mails. "Microsoft does not comment on rumours or speculation," reads the statement. "We are always thinking about what is next for our platform, but we don't have anything further to share at this time."
http://www.oxm.co.uk/49969/rumour-n...-mandatory-online-connection-pre-owned-block/
The XNA thing was responded in the same day with no beating around the bush. This..... is..... not good.
 

michael.pa2

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So a used copy is a lost sale. LIfe it tough, and so is business. I just don't see how they can destroy a product that someone has already paid for (and this is what they are doing - Remotely destroying a paid for product).

Maybe the lawmakers will finally realize "Hey, maybe we gave these jackels just a little too much rope to work with" and it's time to think about consumers for a change.

I think it's been demonstrated that the lawmakers are pretty much in the pockets of big business,so don't hold your breath. The only ones who can effect any change are the consumers themselves,by not buying the products,and I don't see that happening. It did happen once,back in the days of the Great Videogame Crash,but I doubt gamers these days have the balls to do it.
 

McFry

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All this will do is drive up rampant piracy, as users who would have gone to gamestop to ebay to buy a game will just say to hell with the whole system and download it online. Then M$ and $ony will claim unprecedented levels of piracy, that the gov't must intervene to pass new anti-piracy laws, and down comes more Orwellian bullshit for us to contend with. They've probably actually already thought this through. (Lets completely fuck over our own customers so that they revolt, and then cite their revolution is a reason to fuck them over even harder).
 

Babbster

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All this will do is drive up rampant piracy, as users who would have gone to gamestop to ebay to buy a game will just say to hell with the whole system and download it online. Then M$ and $ony will claim unprecedented levels of piracy, that the gov't must intervene to pass new anti-piracy laws, and down comes more Orwellian bullshit for us to contend with. They've probably actually already thought this through. (Lets completely fuck over our own customers so that they revolt, and then cite their revolution is a reason to fuck them over even harder).
That's a nice slippery slope/conspiracy theory you've constructed but it only works if you assume people will buy the console(s) in the first place, and if you make a lot of other assumptions/generalizations that would be unsurprising from someone who uses "$" substitution as if it's at all meaningful.
 

kbrickley

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All this will do is drive up rampant piracy, as users who would have gone to gamestop to ebay to buy a game will just say to hell with the whole system and download it online. Then M$ and $ony will claim unprecedented levels of piracy, that the gov't must intervene to pass new anti-piracy laws, and down comes more Orwellian bullshit for us to contend with. They've probably actually already thought this through. (Lets completely fuck over our own customers so that they revolt, and then cite their revolution is a reason to fuck them over even harder).

That's why I don't see them going with this approach until they eliminate physical media and rely on the cloud for software ... it is much harder to pirate something if only a piece of it actually resides on your system and the rest is in the cloud and associated with a user account ;)
 

nutzo

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It seems to me that Microsoft wants to prevent people from using banned Xbox systems to continue playing games with mods. I understand that, but you want every single legit user to pay the price for that?

But that's the way we do things nowdays.

Just like all the copy protection/DRM. It only stops the average consumer, and makes thier life more difficult. The hackers & pirates just get around it and coninue to do what they want.

Some people eat/drink too much, ban large sodas.
A few people go crazy with guns, ban guns.
Some fat kids, ban schools from selling soda and snacks.

Make everyone suffer due to the actions of a few idiots.
 

Outamyhead

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Typed before reading the article (HONEST!):
I know a devious way they could enforce this: assign a SN to a disk. That SN can only be tied to one Xbox live account. End of second hand market.

Like PC games have been doing for the last decade:rolleyes:
 

dgz

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That's why I don't see them going with this approach until they eliminate physical media and rely on the cloud for software ... it is much harder to pirate something if only a piece of it actually resides on your system and the rest is in the cloud and associated with a user account ;)

Just labeling a something as a service doesn't make it so. They're going to make games even more reliant of additional crap just to make your dream come to true. Evil always wins.
 

kbrickley

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Just labeling a something as a service doesn't make it so. They're going to make games even more reliant of additional crap just to make your dream come to true. Evil always wins.

Not my dream ;) ... I don't want always online anymore than anyone else ... that's why I try to support KS periodically so we have alternatives to the big gaming cartels :cool:
 

nutzo

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All this will do is drive up rampant piracy, as users who would have gone to gamestop to ebay to buy a game will just say to hell with the whole system and download it online.

Already happened with music. Years ago I wanting to buy a specific old song, but they wouldn't sell just the single track, the only option was to buy the whole album (rest of the album was junk). So instead I did a quick search and found several sources to download just the song.

Currently happening with movies. Buy the DVD on release day and have to watch all the ads at the begining, wait 2-3 month until Netflix has it on DVD, or download the movie 1-2 weeks before the DVD is released, no ads, no DRM, and you can even watch it on your phone or tablet.

And they wonder why people pirate stuff?
 
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