Next Gen Nvidia 2nd half 2011

[Deleted member 174368]

You post this in every. Damn. Thread.

Not just him. IRSmurf posts the same shit in every tangentially AMD related thread. Nvidia white knights are always out in full force right before AMD releases a new generation and swiftly disappear once it's not the colossal failure they predict it to be.

 

[heatlesssun]

Not just him. IRSmurf posts the same shit in every tangentially AMD related thread. Nvidia white knights are always out in full force right before AMD releases a new generation and swiftly disappear once it's not the colossal failure they predict it to be.

And the AMD crazies go on and on about Fermi's heat and power draw disregarding its advantages in multi-monitor multi-GPU setups. The 5000s are great but they have their own problems as well. Both companies have good products right now, AMD has more efficient parts and single GPU multi-monitor and nVidia has the better no holds barred solution.

 

[BlueStorm]

No, AMD has one extremely crucial advantage - the 58xx has a much smaller die compared to the GTX 470/480. AMD has boatloads of room to work with 40nm. The 5870 has ~2.15 billion transistors to the 480's 3 billion transistors. Even a 30% increase in transistor count will still put it below the 480's count.

Also, you can do tons to improve performance by improving the architecture (which the 6xxx series is supposedly doing). You don't have to have a process shrink to make a faster chip.

So if AMD combines the two, bigger chip + improved architecture, they could end up with some significant performance gains despite still being on 40nm.

The chip size is only valid point there, but again, given that AMD is all about "small chips" and not using a lot of power, I doubt they'll increase size much.. otherwise they run the risk of becoming complete hypocrites.

Also, architecural advances are a given, and that's potentially true for both companies with a refresh. But technically RV870 *is* just the latest refresh phase.. they haven't fundamentally changed their architecture as NVIDIA has (which slowed NV down), so the low hanging fruit for optimization may be harder to come by there for AMD.

So I really don't think it's as simple as you believe

 

[IRSmurf]

Not just him. IRSmurf posts the same shit in every tangentially AMD related thread. Nvidia white knights are always out in full force right before AMD releases a new generation and swiftly disappear once it's not the colossal failure they predict it to be.

Well... would you prefer the Flash BSODs and GSOD's be swept under the rug? They are very common issues. Much more common than the card killing fan glitch on NVIDIA's drivers. At least NVIDIA acknowledges problems and fixes their drivers in a timely fashion. This data comes from my friends who have had to switch to NVIDIA as well as the many 58xx to GTX 4xx converts on [H].

There was a time when ATi's zealots had a stranglehold on [H]. That's not the case, today. I've recommended ATI cards when buyers budget only allowed for them. But my experience on this forum and the information I've collected from friends in the real world have led me to believe ATi's drivers are at a disadvantage to NVIDIA's.

As for the rest of that, I hope you weren't referring to me.

 

[Brackle]

I love how people compared old tech (5870) to new tech (480).

It's not ATI's fault Nvidia is 1 generation behind. I mean shit the 5870 has been out for over 1 year....of course the 480 should beat old tech.

Nvidia dropped the ball on Fermi, no way to word it differently

 

[heatlesssun]

I love how people compared old tech (5870) to new tech (480).

It's not ATI's fault Nvidia is 1 generation behind. I mean shit the 5870 has been out for over 1 year....of course the 480 should beat old tech.

Nvidia dropped the ball on Fermi, no way to word it differently

Uhhh, the 5870 is only about 6 months older than the 480 and as you said, nVidia dropped the ball, they were late. The 480 isn't so much new tech compared to the 5870 as late tech.

Really if you can't compare the 480 the 5870 are supposed it to compare to a part that doesn't even exist yet? You're trying to have it both ways. It's late, nVidia dropped the ball, but its new tech and you can't compare it to the 5870?

 

[Brackle]

Uhhh, the 5870 is only about 6 months older than the 480 and as you said, nVidia dropped the ball, they were late. The 480 isn't so much new tech compared to the 5870 as late tech.

Really if you can't compare the 480 the 5870 are supposed to compare to a part that doesn't even exist yet? You're trying to have it both ways.

I bought my 5870 last september, The 480's were released for sale on march 25th? 7-8 months behind ATI.

Awhile Nvidia got Fermi out the door, ATI was already on tapping the new GPU.

Come november, ATI's new cards come out and Nvidia has nothing to go against it. Other then saying there new card is coming out next year for Nvidia (could be november when it comes out, then again its 1 year behind ATI, while ATI is already making the new GPU, no one knows).

Either Way Nvidia is that far behind and is screwed as a company.

P.S. No point in comparing the 2 when in under 40 days the 480 will go against whatever ATI has. Right now is the worst time to buy or compare video cards when everyone knows ATI is comin out with something new.

 

[heatlesssun]

I bought my 5870 last september, The 480's were released for sale on march 25th? 7-8 months behind ATI.

Fair enough. But then when November comes will you say you can't compare a 480 to a 6900 or whatever the part number is because the 6900 is new tech and the 480 is old tech?

 

[Dark Shroud]

Fair enough. But then when November comes will you say you can't compare a 480 to a 6900 or whatever the part number is because the 6900 is new tech and the 480 is old tech?

That's stupid because even when AMD's new series is out the GTX 480 will still be Nvidia's current or newest part on the market. So its perfectly fine for the two to be compared.

 

[kllrnohj]

There was a time when ATi's zealots had a stranglehold on [H]. That's not the case, today. I've recommended ATI cards when buyers budget only allowed for them. But my experience on this forum and the information I've collected from friends in the real world have led me to believe ATi's drivers are at a disadvantage to NVIDIA's.

Not really. "ATI zealots" had a stranglehold because Nvidia didn't have shit to offer for 6 months.

Also, you really don't have any actual data to back up your claims. You really have no clue how many people were affected by the killing cards bug vs. GSODs (and I haven't seen anyone complaining about BSODs with ATI - not even sure what you are talking about with that one?). There will be more complains about ATI's problems because ATI has sold more cards. You have no *clue* what percentage are affected by their respective problems, especially since when it works nobody makes a thread about it. For example, I've been running a 5870 since launch. It's been flawless.

The chip size is only valid point there, but again, given that AMD is all about "small chips" and not using a lot of power, I doubt they'll increase size much.. otherwise they run the risk of becoming complete hypocrites.

True, but that doesn't mean a refresh can't be bigger. They can be bigger than Evergreen but still smaller than Fermi - the gap between those two is massive. Since 40nm is now "mature", they could go bigger without making too many sacrifices in power (and the gap between Evergreen and Fermi in that regards is also massive - a refresh could sit comfortably between the two).

Also, architecural advances are a given, and that's potentially true for both companies with a refresh. But technically RV870 *is* just the latest refresh phase.. they haven't fundamentally changed their architecture as NVIDIA has (which slowed NV down), so the low hanging fruit for optimization may be harder to come by there for AMD.

The 6xxx series *IS* supposed to be a new architecture, though. It isn't "just a refresh". Nvidia also didn't fundamentally change their architecture with Fermi. Various pieces were tweaked/redone, yes, but it's fundamentally the same architecture - it all fits together in the same way.

 

[heatlesssun]

That's stupid because even when AMD's new series is out the GTX 480 will still be Nvidia's current or newest part on the market. So its perfectly fine for the two to be compared.

Exactly, just as its appropriate to compare the 480 and 5870 today or even the 280 and the 5870 before the 480. I mean what else is possible?

 

[Brackle]

Fair enough. But then when November comes will you say you can't compare a 480 to a 6900 or whatever the part number is because the 6900 is new tech and the 480 is old tech?

the 480 is Nvidia's new tech the 5000 series is ATI's old tech.

If nvidia had new tech to go against ATI new tech it would be a different story. It all goes back to Nvidia being 7-8 months behind schedule. If Fermi was release last sept. or even October we wouldnt had to have this conversation.

IT's like reading reviews of some new $600 5870 2gig model against a 480. whats the point? ATI is trying to get rid of old stock now....no point in comparing or even buying any video card.

In the Tech industry 1 year behind is a BIG DEAL. I mean look at those first gen 3G Iphones, no one wants then now, because they dont do the shit the 4G iphone does.

When you are behind in the tech. Industry its not a good thing. I mean look at AMD procs too....great prices horrible performance against Intel.

 

[kllrnohj]

Come november, ATI's new cards come out and Nvidia has nothing to go against it. Other then saying there new card is coming out next year for Nvidia (could be november when it comes out, then again its 1 year behind ATI, while ATI is already making the new GPU, no one knows).

Either Way Nvidia is that far behind and is screwed as a company.

They are only behind for this generation. The next generation could easily see them neck and neck again (or we could see ATI being late - who knows). They work on several generations in parallel over several years. Fermi being late doesn't necessarily make the next generation late, it could have had no impact whatsoever on the next gen's timeline.

 

[bexamous]

OMG GTX480 was out 8 months after 5870! You can't compare it!
OMG 6000 series is out 6 months after GTX480! You can't compare it!

OMG WE CAN"T COMPARE ANYTHING!

 

[Brackle]

They are only behind for this generation. The next generation could easily see them neck and neck again (or we could see ATI being late - who knows). They work on several generations in parallel over several years. Fermi being late doesn't necessarily make the next generation late, it could have had no impact whatsoever on the next gen's timeline.

When there next generation comes out ATI could be done with there new generation.

Once you are behind its hard to catch up. Look what happened in 3dfx, they fell behind and Nvidia pwned em.

 

[heatlesssun]

the 480 is Nvidia's CURRENT tech the 5000 series is ATI's CURRENT tech.

There, fixed. There's simply NO other way to compare stuff, sorry. How in the hell do you compare something that exists with something that doesn't?

 

[Brackle]

There, fixed. There's simply NO other way to compare stuff, sorry. How in the hell do you compare something that exists with something that doesn't?

Wait patiently. For all we know ATI new tech could totally suck and Nvidia's totally pwns it.

But seriously, IF you were shopping for a new video card right now, and bought say a 470 GTX, then 2 months time something thats the same price totally blows it away.....wouldn't you feel a bit ripped off? I know i would.

Thats why you are seeing prices going down, everyone is getting ready for ATI's new shit.

I mean the freakin 460 GTX is down to $160 now?.....Yea wonder why they dropped in price...

This all goes back to no point in comparing them "NOW" since new shit is comin very soon.

 

[H-street]

There, fixed. There's simply NO other way to compare stuff, sorry. How in the hell do you compare something that exists with something that doesn't?

imagination

or

wood screws

 

[flak-spammer]

Retailers don't drop their prices because something new is coming out, that's not how the world operates. Anytime you buy something, you have no idea what could come in the next month. It IS the gamble you play in the technology world, and anyone affected by it just has to find a way to deal with it. The logic in this thread is just downright terrible. Everyone just wants to defend their purchase. Life is random, whatever happens is whatever happens. There isn't a thing you can do about it.

 

[Brackle]

Retailers don't drop their prices because something new is coming out, that's not how the world operates. Anytime you buy something, you have no idea what could come in the next month. It IS the gamble you play in the technology world, and anyone affected by it just has to find a way to deal with it. The logic in this thread is just downright terrible. Everyone just wants to defend their purchase. Life is random, whatever happens is whatever happens. There isn't a thing you can do about it.

Eventhough ATI quoted as saying the new replacement to the 5770 is coming out next month.

That is not the reason why the 5770 and the 460 gtx is going down in price?....

 

[edifyingkarma]

I would be discontented if Nvidia doesn't have anything up their sleeves for a whole year from now.

Rather than debate which compares to which, I'd rather see the release of epically powerful products from both manufactuers. If Nvidia truly has nothing for an entire year, and they release something proportional to the fermi release compared to 5000 series, it will be a sad day indeed. Here's to hoping that we see the best from both companies

 

[heatlesssun]

imagination

or

wood screws

Which isn't much of a comparison now is it?

 

[Zachstar]

Yeah, but how much capacity will they have, since they are also relying on that for CPUs. They've been using TSMC for GPUs for ages, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that they are going to switch anytime soon.

You realize how small ARM dies are right? And AMD X86 CPUs are done on the 32nm fab which is a completely different line. 32nm can be filled to the brim with 28nm doing almost nothing if the market so chooses.

Gloflo 28nm will likely have a similar amount of Waffers per day as TSMC. The difference is likely to be yield. TSMC lied about 40nm If gloflo lied about their high test pattern yields the market would abandon them in droves. Their ARM customers (Including Nvidia at this point with its Tegra 3 plans) Are desperate to get high yields SOON so they can get product to the phone community in 2011. They wont hesitiate to go to TSMC if GloFlo lies to them.

Again Gloflo 32nm is having issues. However, Its primary customer is by far AMD not ARM and a large X86 APU CPU Is a FAR more complex thing to fab.

 

[flak-spammer]

Eventhough ATI quoted as saying the new replacement to the 5770 is coming out next month.

That is not the reason why the 5770 and the 460 gtx is going down in price?....

So you believe that if a company heard their competition was going to come out with a new product but had no release date that the price would all of the sudden drop? That would be pretty poor marketing practice, a company doesn't change it's price for a something that doesn't as of yet exist. That would just be purely illogical you have no idea if the product is a flop...or even when it could be coming. Nvidia would change their price to be more competitive in hopes that they could sell more product.

 

[heatlesssun]

Wait patiently. For all we know ATI new tech could totally suck and Nvidia's totally pwns it.

One can ALWAYS play the waiting game. Two months may be fine for most, for some it may not be. Is this one of the better times to by a 470 OR 5850, probably not.

Once again comparing an existing product to one that doesn't exist is pointless as there's simply not enough to go on anyway plus who's to say nVidia doesn't have something up its sleve this fall? No rumors and I wouldn't expect anything but I also would think that nVidia HAD to be thinking about the 5000s sucessor for a long time now. I wouldn't find it at all suprising that nVidia will amp up their drivers at the very least to stay competitive until next gen.

But at this point its all guessing and if one want to play the waiting game that's logical at this point but its FAR to early for comparisons.

 

[Brackle]

So you believe that if a company heard their competition was going to come out with a new product but had no release date that the price would all of the sudden drop? That would be pretty poor marketing practice, a company doesn't change it's price for a something that doesn't as of yet exist. That would just be purely illogical you have no idea if the product is a flop...or even when it could be coming. Nvidia would change their price to be more competitive in hopes that they could sell more product.

Funny because ATI and Nvidia both have done this in the past.

Just because you think they wouldn't, they have.

 

[heatlesssun]

Funny because ATI and Nvidia both have done this in the past.

Just because you think they wouldn't, they have.

Lowered prices because of the competitions unreleased and UNPRICED next gen product TWO months out? Don't think so. Without price and performance data how would they even know HOW to adjust prices? Maybe you can predict the future, we mere mortals can't.

 

[flak-spammer]

Actually I believe they were both accused of price FIXING. Which is very different it's when two companies collaborate and align their prices so there is very little option for consumers vs the regular competitive pricing. You can't really lower the price of an item if you don't know what to lower it to, or for what specific reason you are lowering it. Plus they probably want to keep it higher because higher margins maintain a slightly higher profit.

 

[kllrnohj]

Lowered prices because of the competitions unreleased and UNPRICED next gen product TWO months out? Don't think so. Without price and performance data how would they even know HOW to adjust prices? Maybe you can predict the future, we mere mortals can't.

Two months? Uh, maybe you don't have a calendar handy, but October is *NEXT* month. New cards are rumored to be a month away now.

Also, to those wondering why they would drop prices, Nvidia needs to get up it's mindshare before reviews come out so people keep buying an inferior card (that is, of course, assuming the GTX 460 actually ends up being inferior to whatever AMD is coming out with. I'm not saying it will be, but that is a very real possibility)

 

[heatlesssun]

Yeah, price fixing is really the exact opposite of what I thought were we talking about as you noted.

 

[heatlesssun]

Two months? Uh, maybe you don't have a calendar handy, but October is *NEXT* month. New cards are rumored to be a month away now.

Still hard to know how price without firm data even if they were to come out tomorrow. When you know what's up then you can price is all I'm saying.

 

[Forceman]

the 480 is Nvidia's new tech the 5000 series is ATI's old tech.

No. When ATI releases their new tech, then the 5000 will be old tech. Today, both the 5000 and the 400 are new tech.

 

[Spare-Flair]

The 6xxx series *IS* supposed to be a new architecture, though. It isn't "just a refresh". Nvidia also didn't fundamentally change their architecture with Fermi. Various pieces were tweaked/redone, yes, but it's fundamentally the same architecture - it all fits together in the same way.

*WAS* supposed to be but turned out to just be a similar process as 5xxx and more akin to a refreshed lineup because TSMC screwed up yet again.

When will AMD move to Global Foundries? TSMC is dragging both red and green down.

 

[fattypants]

No. When ATI releases their new tech, then the 5000 will be old tech. Today, both the 5000 and the 400 are new tech.

This.

Whatever is the most recent tech is the fairest comparison.

When comparing the 5870 to the GTX 2xx series, it was fair. They were the latest offerings from both companies.

Comparing the GTX 480 series to the 5870 is fair. They are the latest offerings from both companies.

 

[Spare-Flair]

This.

Whatever is the most recent tech is the fairest comparison.

When comparing the 5870 to the GTX 2xx series, it was fair. They were the latest offerings from both companies.

Comparing the GTX 480 series to the 5870 is fair. They are the latest offerings from both companies.

Exactly and when the higher end 6xxx series is out, it will be fair to compare that to GTX 480 until the Fermi refresh.

 

[Zachstar]

*WAS* supposed to be but turned out to just be a similar process as 5xxx and more akin to a refreshed lineup because TSMC screwed up yet again.

When will AMD move to Global Foundries? TSMC is dragging both red and green down.

AMD HD 7x series will be fabbed at GloFLos 28nm node. Which so far is showing VERY NICE yields on test runs. However it does seem like Gloflo is more focused on ARM runs to start at the moment so I would say AMD 7x series in late 2011.

Which is fine because if high yields go on they can afford to put a bunch of cards on the market at good prices at launch instead of the insane prices of the 5x series due to TSMCs failures.

2011 is going to be about who can have the best yields.

 

[Red Falcon]

next gen AMD for me then!!

+1

I'm also excited for the HD6000 series as well!

 

[Zachstar]

+1

I'm also excited for the HD6000 series as well!

I will as well. Tho it will likely be another X770 series buy until I can get a 7850 later on. My 4770's only real weakness is its memory. The far better memory of the likely 6770 will seal the deal for me. Atleast for another year.

 

[Forceman]

AMD HD 7x series will be fabbed at GloFLos 28nm node. Which so far is showing VERY NICE yields on test runs. However it does seem like Gloflo is more focused on ARM runs to start at the moment so I would say AMD 7x series in late 2011.

Which is fine because if high yields go on they can afford to put a bunch of cards on the market at good prices at launch instead of the insane prices of the 5x series due to TSMCs failures.

2011 is going to be about who can have the best yields.

Where did you see that about using them for 28nm? And shouldn't it be GloFo? What's the extra L for, Floundries?

 

[Brent_Justice]

When it comes down to it, we can only evaluate what is out at a given time to what is out at the same time and compare at the same price points, it just makes sense. We will compare the next gen AMD series to what is out at the time, and we'll compare Kepler to what is out at the time, and compare by price. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all shapes up myself!

You know what we need most? The GAMES, bring on Lost Planet 2, bring on Crysis 2, bring on that gotta have game that will make my video card cry!