Next-Gen consoles = Death of PC Gaming?

pistola said:
Prove it.
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I'm sure that this isn't enough...quality is subjective and the objectiveness of the following doesn't include the explosion of MMORPGs.
From Wikipedia said:
The NPD Group tracks computer and video game sales in the United States. It reported that as of 2004:

Console and portable software sales: $6.2 billion, up 8% from 2003 [3] (http://gameinfowire.com/news.asp?nid=5650)
Console and portable hardware and accessory sales: $3.7 billion, down 35% from 2003 [4] (http://gameinfowire.com/news.asp?nid=5650)
PC game sales: $1.1 billion, down 2% from 2003 [5] (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/28/news_6117438.html)
These figures are sales in dollars, not units; unit shipments for each category were higher than the dollar sales numbers indicate, as more software and hardware was sold at reduced prices compared to 2003.

Retail PC game sales have been declining slightly each year since about 1998, but this fact should be taken with a grain of salt: the retail sales numbers from NPD do not include sales from online downloads, nor subscription revenue for games like MMORPGs.

There is a commonly repeated, mistaken belief that video game sales now exceed the revenues of the movie industry. This is untrue; in the United States, video game sales have exceeded the movies' total box office revenue each year since about 1996, but the movie studios trounce the video game publishers when the movies' "ancillary revenue" is counted, meaning sales of DVDs, sales to foreign distributors, and sales to cable TV, satellite TV, and broadcast television networks.
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pistola said:
Prove it.

And why does MS have to be the one to bridge the PC/console gap? Maybe sony or someone else come up with a OS that bridges the gap between the systems, MS isn't the all mighty god of OSs there is other people out there.
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While someone already posted the numbers, it seems pretty obvious that the PC gaming industry has been in a decline. Not devestating, but not trivial either. As for you OS comment, regardless of anyone's OS affiliation, one cannot deny Microsoft's domination of both the PC OS market and the OS Mindshare. We aren't talking about an OS on a console that any company puts on it. However, to take your own words, in the minds of most people, MS IS the all might god of OS's. I am sure the average console gamer is not really concerned with Linux or any other OS. Most consumers run Windows on their computer, and if they are buying something that is supposed to be a computer (i.e. a console running an OS), they likely expect windows as well. This is not an arguement about which OS is better, but lets face the facts, based on the numbers Windows is the king.
 
pistola said:
Prove it.

And why does MS have to be the one to bridge the PC/console gap? Maybe sony or someone else come up with a OS that bridges the gap between the systems, MS isn't the all mighty god of OSs there is other people out there.
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A few others took care of it and posted the numbers while I was at work. Anyone without fan-bitch goggles on has seen the writing on the wall for quite some time though; PC game sales have been steadily declining. It will only get worse when new consoles are released.
 
pistola said:
My thinking is as console systems grow the line between what is know as a PC and a Console will grow very very thin. I think it will be extremely hard to distinguish whats a console or PC without looking at the brand (Sony, Microsoft,Gcube,etc) Consoles of the future, will run a full OS and full PC like apps, just like it's PC counterpart. So eventually the systems will grow so similiar that they will eventually just have to join hands and frolic together. So no the PC gaming industry isn't going to die, I think the will eventually merge into the same market.
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You're dreaming. The reason consoles are so popular is because little Timmy can get one for christmas, pop the disc in, and play. The older crowd plays consoles because they don't and/or don't want to understand computers....the majority unaware PC games even exist. Consoles will forever be simple, straight-forward machines for the stupidfolk.

I truly hope PC gaming remains a niche, because when you cross console kiddies and computers, you get f*cktards.
 
ATW said:
You're dreaming. The reason consoles are so popular is because little Timmy can get one for christmas, pop the disc in, and play. The older crowd plays consoles because they don't and/or don't want to understand computers....the majority unaware PC games even exist. Consoles will forever be simple, straight-forward machines for the stupidfolk.

I truly hope PC gaming remains a niche, because when you cross console kiddies and computers, you get f*cktards.
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I am tired of this adolescent snobbery, it's a matter of convenience. I know many highly educated people that play their games on consoles, just like they watch DVDs on home DVD players (who'da thunk?). It is naive and pompous as hell to consider these people philistine idiots. I was once a hardcore PC gaming elitist snob as well, and looked down on consoles disdainfully, but I just got tired of dealing with the shit, it was unproductive and became irritating (6 CD installations, patching, Steam, Starforce, configuring, unexpected troubleshooting, etc). I much prefer the luxury of popping in a single disc and playing, and moving on to something else. I couldn't care about sticking around for benchmarks and numbers and texture sliders and all that shallowness, I've got other games to play. (I also feel a strictly digital keyboard is limiting compared to the analog advancements in controllers, along with force feedback and voice chat across the board...a mouse is nice but non-essential to me)

I prefer utilizing machines that are honed and attuned for specific purposes; consoles are specifically built around entertainment and provide a convenient and gratifying way to experience the arts. This liberates you and allows you to get a computer that specifically benefits productivity, without worrying about gaming capabilities (ultraportable tablets, Macs, Linux workstations). I know I've been harping this quite a bit, but I really feel I have found a better experience with this setup.
 
ATW said:
You're dreaming. The reason consoles are so popular is because little Timmy can get one for christmas, pop the disc in, and play. The older crowd plays consoles because they don't and/or don't want to understand computers....the majority unaware PC games even exist. Consoles will forever be simple, straight-forward machines for the stupidfolk.

I truly hope PC gaming remains a niche, because when you cross console kiddies and computers, you get f*cktards.
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While strongly-worded, I somewhat agree with this sentiment.

I don't want the same people who think halo 2 is "t3h bestest game evar!!!!!1!!!one!!11!!!1!eleven!1!!!!!!1!!!" playing Raven Shield with me. Like it or not, there is a gap between the console crowd and the PC crowd.

While I'd like to think we're a little more than a mere "niche", that's not far off. PC game sales are sliding, and we see more and more multi-platform shit daily (san andreas, anyone?).

And what the fuck (in the parlance of our time) is with the new Rainbow Six? How can Ubi even put their name on it? Oh, that's right. They're getting mountains of cash for what looks like ruining one of the most prolific, ground-breaking, and just plainly ballsy genres out there to make a multi-platform shoot-fest. What the hell kind of elite team forms a mission plan around rescuing one of its team members - out of revenge? The trailer looks more like a fucking one hundred million-dollar Bruckheimer "production" then the elite, calm, collected Clancy-inspired (not the greatest literature ever, but hey, it makes a great game universe) experience myself and many others have grown to love.

I guess as soon as consoles get spots on MTV we were in trouble. Shiny lights! Celebrities!

While I don't agree with every point in the following Penny Arcade "mini series", I do think there's a lot of truth in it:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-06-04&res=l
(hit "Next" at the bottom to view all fours strips)

I think this is pretty evident everywhere. Look at Nintendo. They are one of about maybe a dozen developers and coordinating publishers who still feel the need to make games that have original concepts, if nothing else. They may not be utterly amazing, they may not have godsmack (!!!) or whomever doing the soundtrack, but by God at least they're trying. Smash Brothers? Animal Crossing? Wario Ware? All completely original concepts and, whatever your individual feelings about the games may be, were all pretty well-received by the community.

How are Gamecube sales? Fucking pathetic. The worst in Nintendo's history. Now, if we can all agree that Nintendo was the king of this game up until the PSOne (Sega had the superior technology fur sure, but just didn't have the games), the GCN is by far the dog of three current consoles, yet Nintendo has more or less continued to make creative, vibrant games like they used to (plus the essential meat-headed multi-platform garbage)...what happened?

A changing of the guard in the gaming market perhaps?

Notice I said community and not buying public because there is a distinct difference between the two. The community will scrutinize what comes out and can discern between good and bad games. The buying public sees "master chief", some shiny walls, and some new drivable vehicles and needs a new change of undergarments.

Real, PC-only games are a dying breed. Not alot of people want them anymore. Well, at least not enough people. Will we ever see another Grim Fandango? Falcon 4.0? Myth? I don't see it happening anytime soon. There's not enough money for PC-only developers out there to take three to five years and make an amazing game that's only feasible on a PC (no RTS will ever, ever work with the concept of "controllers" consoles have to deal with currently). There used to be, but not anymore.

That's not to say that cross-platform titles are all bad. KOTOR is a great game, as is Max Payne 1/2. Consolers with Rainbow Six 3 pretty much got the whole package (well, they got most of the gameplay, anyway), but would get waxed by most anyone using a mouse and keyboard (plese stop tyring to argue "but teh thUmbstick is bettar!!1!!!!1!!!!!1!!" because it's oh-so-tired). But who are we kidding? Most cross-platforms are inoffensive at best. The new deus ex? call of duty? medal of honor? men of valor? san andreas?

Huge budgets + multiple platforms = marginal games. The new equation of gaming.
 
Um, it's the PC crowd that types that ridiculously on every game session I've joined, and the satirical versions of it are getting pretty old. Want the next Grim Fandango? Pick up Psychonauts, my god what a masterpiece...

RTS works better with a mouse because they use a mouse pointer, this is pretty elementary to understand. Analog sticks, analog triggers, analog buttons, force feedback, voice chat, these are all advancements in controllers that specifically benefit every other game.

Oh and enough with that nostalgic romanticism, games have been 90% garbage since the day gaming was conceived. There are still fantastic games out there (ICO? Katamari? Or stick with your war-themed dreck on PC), you just have to look. A console, a piece of hardware that plays games, has little to do with a publisher making crappy games. Put the blame on bad games squarely where they belong, whoever created them. I am reminded of the terrible King's Quest: Mask of Eternity that tried to target a broader audience (the simpler FPS crowd). Didn't have anything to do with a console, now did it?
 
Abysmal said:
Um, it's the PC crowd that types that ridiculously on every game session I've joined, and the satirical versions of it are getting pretty old. Want the next Grim Fandango? Pick up Psychonauts, my god what a masterpiece...

RTS works better with a mouse because they use a mouse pointer, this is pretty elementary to understand. Analog sticks, analog triggers, analog buttons, force feedback, voice chat, these are all advancements in controllers that specifically benefit every other game.
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First off, "God" is capitalized.

Second, i can grab a PC controller (foce feedback - and wireless, with t3h AnAlOg thumbsticks!!!!! all the kids are crazy about) if I want to and go at it. I did it for almost a year straight with my buddies and NHL '99. Pretty sure I can do voice chat too, although to most people, consoles or PC, it is more of a curse than a blessing.

The only thing that would make games like halo 2 better is if they were released on the PC and were Live-capable. I'd have a fucking field day. "But hikeskool! What about teh keyBOARD and mOuSe adaptar for teh XBOX?" What about it, Phil? I still have to deal with Live itself, which, unless you live on a college campus (like I do), Microsoft's campus, or want to ditch out about fifty bucks a month for adequate braodband, is a mess with halo 2. Oh, and once I buy my game, I won't be paying extra to play it online.

I can buy a (better) PC shooter and get by with some cheapo $24.99/month cable jobbie and modify ever existing facet of the game if I so choose. No, not just what my master chief looks like, No, not just what cool armpatch I'm wearing. No, not what adolescent gamertag I go by. Just the stuff that matters.

Psychonauts? Again, not totally inoffensive. Demo was OK, may pick it up when it hits twenty bucks.

Grim Fandango it is not. Please don't err so drastically again.
 
Abysmal said:
A console, a piece of hardware that plays games, has little to do with a publisher taking chances for a larger/different audience.
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He said it. He actually said it.

You, sir, win the Brass Balls Award. Good work.

"War-dreck"? I love this guy.

Maybe PCs should just switch to the ol' sterotypical fourteen-year-old, double-D breasted female anime sterotype that appeals to twelve-year-old males everywhere?

It seemed to have worked for consoles, so why not?

Note to starving PC game studios: switch to big brests. Drop "war dreck" There is more money (but not necessarily better gaming) in big breasts than "war dreck"

And hey! Let's pull a "Square/Enix" and just focus around cinematics and not in-game gameplay! Sure worked for "final fantasy xvii star bruiser epic lantern philly cheesteak" and "final fantasy wow-i-can't-believe-we're-still-getting-paid-for-this-furthermore-that-people-are-still-buying-it".

Note to game studios! Cinematics are now officially more important than actual gameplay! Convert now! Make millions!
 
You clearly haven't played all of Psychonauts then. I felt it was decent until I made my way to the later worlds, I was literally cracking up at all of the insanity. I loved the tight-knit little summer camp community filled with offbeat, eccentric personalities. It's likely the best platformer I've ever played, oozes character.

Am I typing like that, really? You are making a fool out of yourself (oh dear God forgive me, pedant). I can play every game I want on a $150 box and $7 rentals, I am not interested in sticking around and modifying every facet of my game, I have more substantial things to care about in my life.

You can get a controller for the PC sure, for the games that support it well enough (same with voice chat). PC or console, I think there are benefits to the controller, the same way there are benefits to the mouse.

Or should I have typed that in idiotic l33tspeak, to be on par with you?
 
Okay, now you are just making stupid straw-man rebuttals, I can already see the fruitlessness in this. I play artistic, immersive, thought-provoking games on consoles (and PCs, I know it's not all war), I don't recall listing Final Fantasy and games with big boobs as a part of my gaming tastes. Equating consoles ONLY with MTV dumbfucks is naive cynicism.
 
Abysmal said:
You clearly haven't played all of Psychonauts then. I felt it was decent until I made my way to the later worlds, I was literally cracking up at all of the insanity. I loved the tight-knit little summer camp community filled with offbeat, eccentric personalities. It's likely the best platformer I've ever played, oozes character.

Am I typing like that, really? You are making a fool out of yourself (oh dear God forgive me, pedant). I can play every game I want on a $150 box and $7 rentals, I am not interested in sticking around and modifying every facet of my game, I have more substantial things to care about in my life.

You can get a controller for the PC sure, for the games that support it well enough (same with voice chat). PC or console, I think there are benefits to the controller, the same way there are benefits to the mouse.

Or should I have typed that in idiotic l33tspeak, to be on par with you?
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Good observation.

I said I had played the demo and showed some interest in it. What more do you want?

If you characterize my post in any way as "idiotic", I'm afraid you won't like how I'd characterize the typical halo player or madden 20xx player.

The point is, I can use a gamepad for what I need to (including the psychonauts demo) and find a keyboard and mouse more than adequate for everything else.

I could have illegally obtained psychonauts by now, but even I have enough respect for overfed developers not to do so.

Pedant! You're pulling out all the stops aren't you, trying to make the average console gamer seem learned! Well, I can't blame you for trying. You'll need more than your word-a-day calendar to impress me.

And thank you for spelling God properly.
 
Actually, snob, my original format of lower-case "god" was correct. ;)

How is someone who doesn't want to fuck with a computer, idiotic? They can, and do, have great strengths in other academic fields, consoles don't just target kids (although there are a lot of them, I agree, but the same can be said for teens on PCs).
 
Abysmal said:
Okay, now you are just making stupid straw-man rebuttals, I can already see the fruitlessness in this. I play artistic, immersive, thought-provoking games on consoles (and PCs, I know it's not all war), I don't recall listing Final Fantasy and games with big boobs as a part of my gaming tastes. Equating consoles ONLY with MTV dumbfucks is naive cynicism.
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OK, great. But you can't deny that final fantasy is one of the main reasons why people think the ps2 is, sigh, "great".

My God people, if you have to have a console, at least make sure you can look at it without having to reminisce your N64 days. A good deal of Dreamcast games are graphically superior (and faster-loading) than many ps2 games.

OK, my trivial labelling doesn't cover "straw-man", but I'm not concerned about what kind of games you like. I'll be the first to admit many of the games I enjoy aren't the least bit intellectual. Serious Sam is fun just because. i enjoy blowing up worms in, um, Worms 2. Few things make me happeir than an old-fashioned white-knuckle GLQuakeWorld standoff.

That's why I play games: to enjoy myself. Artistic, thoughtful, blah, blah, blah...if I wanted to be educated I'd read some Twain or Whitman. That isn't to say that a good game can't have the same impact as a good movie, or even more of an impact, due to its interactive facet.

The problem is that today it's more profitable to make "Dude Where's My Car" and not "Casino" or "Traffic".

But hasn't low-brow entertainment always been favored by the masses?

Reminder! Just caught "best picture" on the MTV Movie Awards. Napoleon Dynamite over Ray. Sound decision, huh? Isn't this the same network that aired the Xbox 360 feature?
 
That's the way entertainment has ALWAYS been, regardless of platform and medium. Go back to your nostalgic golden era and you'll find tons of crap standing right along the greats. The same goes for books, movies, and music. I'm one to enjoy simple entertainment occasionally too, we all are. But I think these platform wars are utterly ridiculous. You have beef with the industry, not a platform.
 
Abysmal said:
That's the way entertainment has ALWAYS been, regardless of platform and medium. Go back to your nostalgic golden era and you'll find tons of crap standing right along the greats. The same goes for books, movies, music, and games. I'm one to enjoy simple entertainment occasionally too, we all are. But I think these platform wars are utterly ridiculous. You have beef with the industry, not a platform.
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I think we agree on essentially the same terms, just with varying tastes, which is OK with me.

Yes, I most definitly have a beef with the industry. The industry is trying to hijack my favored genre, the FPS, and, according to game sales, has succeeded in the success of halo 2 as opposed to Half-Life 2. Which one is the better game? It depends who you ask. Ask an eight-year-old or a your typical "gamer" frat guy (I'm in a frat at TU, so I am in no way attacking the Greek system on any campus), you'll hear "Halo!" followed by an exuberant jumping up and down and "Halo, dude", directly followed by the chuging of a Natty Light.

Ask a seasoned gamer, of all walks, and you'll definitly hear "Half-Life 2". It's like comparing the new Winnie the Pooh adventure (something about an elephant) to something like, oh, maybe "Requiem for a Dream" or "Rushmore"; something different, yet gound-breaking, and often slightly disturbing.

One is a minor addition to a "proven" formula, one is the top of its genre.

The problem is, of course, one is more popular to the masses and the other, because it incites inquiry, or possibly changes things around, will directly affect sales.

So yesm developers are directly involved. A little piece of Rockstar, makers of Max Payne, died when they were told to "make a new game" and put out "red dead revolver". Did they make some money? Sure. Did it entertain some people for about a month (long after they can take it back for a refund)? Yeah, probably. Did it change the face of gaming? No one will remember this game in six months.

I'll close with a litle anecdote.

So SA (Student Association) here at TU puts on an annual Halo tournament. Having nothing else to do, me and a buddy enter, get thouroughly waxed by two people using an egg timer as part of their strategy, and go home. I see someone there, who actually has a very distinct and funny nickname (which I'll spare for his privacy). He's in a frat, he's pretty popular, he lifts weights and is a decent student. So I approach him and say "Hey, I didn't know you were into this sort of stuff, what other games do you play", to which he replied, "Oh, a little NCAA, and not much else". "What about other shooters?" "What do you mean, what's a shooter?" "A first-person-shooter. Like Halo. Halo is a first-person-shooter" "You mean there are more of these? Like on PS2 or something?" Well, most of the good ones are on the PC" "Nah, fuck that. I'm not a huge nerd or anything".

As predicted, he went on to win the tournament with what I was told "great ease".

Is it even worth trying to show him what he's missing?
 
I could just as easily consider the bourgeois pedestrian masses who find taste in Half-Life 2 to be artless and unsophisticated; have they never played Thief, System Shock, or any of the like? I wouldn't do this however; everyone has their own definition of quality, and I think it's great that they find enjoyment in whatever they prefer, be it Halo, The Sims, or whatever else. I am still able to enjoy what I like, and it doesn't impede on the "masses", so who am I to complain? It creates a class structure, a kind of microcosm in the entertainment community...there are those who dig deep, and those who are content with what's easier to find. It's never going to change, getting bitter about it is just an exercise in futility.

I do want consoles to gather more respect as a platform though, and game developers to always bring their game to every platform (including PCs). Consoles have advantages, just as PCs have advantages. I think they unfairly get a bad rep because of their accessibility, therefore attracting a bigger audience. But just as a DVD player plays DVDs, and a CD player plays CDs, I want a game system that plays games. I personally use my computer for productivity, and not entertainment.
 
I think the both of you would be happy with any system that had an F5 button.

One thing I thought was interesting in the whole exchange was the semi-recognition that online games are crowded with bowls upon bowls of dumbass. I hate that; all of my attempts to foray have ended with a renewed disgust for online humanity.

Also, the identification of the "industry" as the "problem" and not the difference between console and PC gaming has sparked some thoughts to explore. The adventure game is dead, which is really unfortunate...and maybe that's what we think about when we talk of golden age, because when I get all nostalgic, that's what I'm thinking of. The Dig, Maniac Mansion, Indiana Jones, Monkey Island (Murray?), etc...Maybe LA should be petitioned to do it again - 3d be damned.
 
sfuller said:
The adventure game is dead, which is really unfortunate...
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It's a shame init? Other genres are essentially dead as well. 3D Space combat (ala Wing Commander) and space exploration games (StarFlight/Star Control 2) are all dead.
 
Murray was awesome. ;)

Yeah, it could be said that great gaming "died" long ago, well before consoles started taking over. Adventure gaming waned in favor of targeting the violence and shooter crowd. Now most every game is about killing and attacking things, with any kind of "story" entirely peripheral. I really don't consider the rudimentary stuff you see on PCs today as particularly sophisticated; a complex interface does not a creative game make.

But it's still all there, if you look for it. Trackmania: Sunrise, Psychonauts, Katamari Damacy, the upcoming Metronome, and the upcoming Shadow of the Colossus. These titles span both PC and console. The platform is largely irrelevant (unless you're a stupid, ignorant publisher), creativity will never die, new companies will always spring up. You see this in the music industry as well. How fruitless would it be to get most people to listen to anything on the Constellation label? I don't even try anymore.
 
Riptide_NVN said:
3D Space combat (ala Wing Commander) and space exploration games (StarFlight/Star Control 2) are all dead.
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Totally. Freespace 2 was the last space combat game I played. At least the strategy game still exists. What happened to the good flight sim? I really want to play an A10 game again. This is depressing.
 
Abysmal said:
Yeah, it could be said that great gaming "died" long ago, well before consoles started taking over. Adventure gaming waned in favor of targeting the violence and shooter crowd. Now most every game is about killing and attacking things, with any kind of "story" entirely peripheral.
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LOL, people are so fickle now aren't they?? Back in the "old days" people played text based games and (shocker!) actually enjoyed it. They needed to use their imagination a little bit. Now everything seems so full of fluff. Like hollywood movies. 90% special effects and the rest seems like an afterthought. Not everything is this bad, but it seems like it sometimes.
 
sfuller said:
Totally. Freespace 2 was the last space combat game I played. At least the strategy game still exists. What happened to the good flight sim? I really want to play an A10 game again. This is depressing.
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Hell I'd pay good money to replay the original Wing Commander if they would modernize it for 3D acceleration and then re-release it. I might even pay $65 for it. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much of a market, or at least one that the publisher has recognized. The last 3D Space Combat sim I played was StarLancer. It wasn't bad, but not as good as Wing Commander IMO. And yes good flight sims are going bye-bye, LOMAC is the last one I've even heard of other than MS Flight Sim. To be completely fair, I'm part of the problem there. I kinda lost interest in them a while ago. Sue me. ;)

And yes, this is sort of depressing. I must've spent days exploring in Star Control 2 and Star Flight. AWESOME games. But alas, no more...
 
Riptide_NVN said:
LOL, people are so fickle now aren't they?? Back in the "old days" people played text based games and (shocker!) actually enjoyed it. They needed to use their imagination a little bit. Now everything seems so full of fluff. Like hollywood movies. 90% special effects and the rest seems like an afterthought. Not everything is this bad, but it seems like it sometimes.
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Hell, I still play my old Atari games (and PC museum games).
Problem is that I've become more sophisticated at playing games so the older museum games play so easily now. For example, I played the old Atari game "Adventure" as a kid. I must have played that game for days and days. When I played it for the first time again a couple of months ago, I beat it the first time on the hardest level and continued to beat it non stop.
 
Starflight! I remember playing that with my father as a kid. I need to drag that one out again, good times.
 
Abysmal said:
Starflight! I remember playing that with my father as a kid. I need to drag that one out again, good times.
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Yes, that is THE game that got me into PCs as a kid. Hours and hours spent exploring. And what a great story eh? Was just awesome.

BTW, the original is in public domain AFAIK so you can probably get a copy somewhere. I have it if you want it.

Also, here's a few links. Brings back fond memories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Systems
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3787/starflt.html

There used to be a great geocities fan page but I don't know what happened to it. Looks like it went bye-bye. :(

*EDIT* Here it is. :)
http://www.geocities.com/lorenzolio/starflight.html
 
mcravenufo said:
Hell, I still play my old Atari games (and PC museum games).
Problem is that I've become more sophisticated at playing games so the older museum games play so easily now. For example, I played the old Atari game "Adventure" as a kid. I must have played that game for days and days. When I played it for the first time again a couple of months ago, I beat it the first time on the hardest level and continued to beat it non stop.
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I had the same sort of thing happen to me with the original battle toads for the NES. I remember the bike racing part being impossible when I was a kid.

Recently I was hit with a wave of nostalgia and I pulled out he NES where I proceeded to beat the bike part on my first try. Was I really that uncoordinated when I was a child ? Have all this years of games really improved my hand eye coordination that much ?
 
Until we have the best possible graphics on both platforms, neither will die. ATI and nVidia need the PC's upgradeablility to produce newer/better graphics cards (unless they decide to make the PS4 and XBOX720 upgradeable). Without producing newer/better cards, neither the consoles or PCs will ever evolve. The developers of these games will always want them to look as good as they possibly can, and when the platform that performs the best is again PCs, they will move right back to it.

That being said, I think there will always be a reason to have both. I couldn't imagine playing Ratchet and Clank on a PC, or playing HL2 on a console. They just wouln't play right. Likewise, my wife would never even think about playing the Sims 2 on a console, or Jak and Daxter on a PC. You want the best of both worlds? Get a PC and a console.

Some games will be fine on either PC or console. Morrowind comes to mind. I play it on my computer because I like to play games on my computer (and I got it in a bundle), but I got it for XBOX first. It plays fine on either system. The controller/mouse argument doesn't apply here (to me at least).

It would be like saying that a new car coming out would end the need for trucks. It just isn't true. People will still want to haul. :)


edit: You have to look at prices of the games too. The new console games will be what $60? I just looked up Advent Rising. It is $50 for the XBOX, and will be $25 at the end of the month when released for the PC. The games for the consoles have to pay back the losses for the hardware.
 
FlipperBizkut said:
edit: You have to look at prices of the games too. The new console games will be what $60? I just looked up Advent Rising. It is $50 for the XBOX, and will be $25 at the end of the month when released for the PC. The games for the consoles have to pay back the losses for the hardware.
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True, but you have to look at rentals too. I play so many games, that owning them doesn't make much sense anymore, save for the few very good replayable ones (multiplayer generally). I can get through any game I want at $7 a pop, legally. Blockbuster essentially gives you 14 days to play before the game turns into a sale, which is plenty of time to explore the game to its depths. This'll be quite an asset when games start hitting $60, and you can bet high-profile PC games will be priced the same way (and in some cases already are). When it comes to the games I want to own, I tend to wait until they hit the bargain bin for $20 or less...PC or console.

The game industry may frown upon rentals, but it's really their own fucked-up business model that's causing these prices and driving people away. They NEED alternate sources of revenue and a broader audience. Movies cost a hell of a lot more to produce than games, yet the DVD runs you $10-$20. Why? Because they make their money from so many other areas, and movies have a much wider appeal.
 
Still flaming console fans, hikeskool? Same shit, different day.

hikeskool said:
Good observation.

I said I had played the demo and showed some interest in it. What more do you want?
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...perhaps he wishes that you would admit the innovative framework that the game together.

hikeskool said:
If you characterize my post in any way as "idiotic", I'm afraid you won't like how I'd characterize the typical halo player or madden 20xx player.
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...I'm sure he wouldn't like it any more than you would enjoy us characterizing the typical CS:S or WoW players.

hikeskool said:
The point is, I can use a gamepad for what I need to (including the psychonauts demo) and find a keyboard and mouse more than adequate for everything else.
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...and we can use the keyboard/mouse peripheral if we so choose. Your point?

hikeskool said:
Pedant! You're pulling out all the stops aren't you, trying to make the average console gamer seem learned! Well, I can't blame you for trying. You'll need more than your word-a-day calendar to impress me.
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Ah, there is the social posturing that we have all come to expect from you. Still trying to pretend that you're on a higher intellectual level than everyone else?

You're not the first person from [H] to attend college, though it is obvious that you seem to think otherwise (You constantly make subtle references to it like you did earlier when you stated how you live in the dorms); get off your high-horse and act like an adult. Being condescending all the time doesn't make you look intellectual; it makes you look like an ass.
 
WickedAngel said:
Still flaming console fans, hikeskool? Same shit, different day.



...perhaps he wishes that you would admit the innovative framework that the game together.



...I'm sure he wouldn't like it any more than you would enjoy us characterizing the typical CS:S or WoW players.



...and we can use the keyboard/mouse peripheral if we so choose. Your point?



Ah, there is the social posturing that we have all come to expect from you. Still trying to pretend that you're on a higher intellectual level than everyone else?

You're not the first person from [H] to attend college, though it is obvious that you seem to think otherwise (You constantly make subtle references to it like you did earlier when you stated how you live in the dorms); get off your high-horse and act like an adult. Being condescending all the time doesn't make you look intellectual; it makes you look like an ass.
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Yes! He's back! Where to begin...

Well, I can't really say I'm being too "subtle" about my academic career by saying things like:

"unless you live on a college campus (like I do)"

"(I'm in a frat at TU, so I am in no way attacking the Greek system on any campus)"

"Natty Light" (I've never heard people who have not attended or graduated college refer to "Natural Light" beer in this fashion)

"So SA (Student Association) here at TU..."

Oh, that and it says "University of Tulsa" under my name. I'm glad you think I'm going to such great lengths to impress everybody. So far, you're the only person who has offered such an excuse as an inabiliity to prove a valid point in this little facade you love persuing.

So, Psychonauts. Not a bad demo. I've certainly played worse, and I do appreciate the developers at least trying to be imaginative. To me that means alot. If you read my post praising Nintendo, you'd probably realize that and would not have posted your rebuttal beneath your first quote of myself. Or maybe you would have. I dunno.

Counter-Strike: Source and World of Warcraft. I really can't imagine two more opposite types of addicts. One is stuck in a rut (a really, really fun and addictive rut) that he loves, the other vegetates and has roots growing into his PC for warmth.

I'd be lying if I said I havn't been playing CS on and off since its inception. It's really really fun if you get good enough. Further, it fosters a really great community, you just have to look hard and not get frustrated. The game has flaws, but I think there are generally enough changes to it that to the people who care about it, it remains interesting (shields in 1.6, anyone).

I love Blizzard, but I will not pay for a game after I've bought it. This just will not happen. Further, I remember how badly alot of friends were addicted to Diablo II, and I just don't see myself doing that, in any capacity. Even if it's the kind of capacity filled with lush, distinct environments, a unique player culture, innnovative PvP and party systems, a currency and exchange system that (finally) seems to make sense, multiple races and charcters...sorry, what were we talking about again?

So characterize all you like. I won't be offended.

As for the mouse and keyboard, well, it's really funny that you guys think that you can control a FPS with the same precision with a pad. I guess it's kind of like a one-armed man trying to box: pretty fruitless and (I'd imagine) kind of funny to watch, in a sick sort of way. I'll just leave it at that.

Another little funny story. I'm playing Vice City (on the PC, naturally), doing the bank robbery mission, when one of my buddies walks in. I beat the mission without much trouble, and he says "How many times did it take you to beat it", to which I replied, "this is my first time; I think it's easier to play these games with a keyboard and mouse than a PS2 pad". He insisted I was lying, and that was that. And if you think I can't drive a car in that game, you'd be sadly mistaken. You should see how I wield the Lambo when I'm feeling ornery. Nothing but power slides, fellas.

While I guess you've mounted your entire post around what's (apparantly) wrong with me, as you have in almost all threads I've been unfortunate enough to find you in, I think I've mounted a couple examples, while disjointed, as they would have to be to form a rebuttal to your post, and I think I can actually say that I've contributed positively, although in a manner you obviously disapprove of, to this thread.

What the fuck have you done?
 
None of the things you said really disproved the fact that you're an elitist who is constantly speaking in a condescending manner towards others. In fact, you only served to solidify my statement.

hikeskool said:
Oh, that and it says "University of Tulsa" under my name. I'm glad you think I'm going to such great lengths to impress everybody. So far, you're the only person who has offered such an excuse as an inabiliity to prove a valid point in this little facade you love persuing.
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It seems that you have our roles reversed. You were being an ass long before I ever made my way into this thread. In fact, you were arguing with a member who I am not even familiar with. The validity of my point stands, as does the judgement of your character.

hikeskool said:
Counter-Strike: Source and World of Warcraft. I really can't imagine two more opposite types of addicts. One is stuck in a rut (a really, really fun and addictive rut) that he loves, the other vegetates and has roots growing into his PC for warmth.
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I picked two opposite types of addicts to demonstrate how childish immaturity has infected all genres and industries. You seem to be living in a fantasy world where younger adults only play consoles; it's time to wake up.

hikeskool said:
I'd be lying if I said I havn't been playing CS on and off since its inception. It's really really fun if you get good enough. Further, it fosters a really great community, you just have to look hard and not get frustrated. The game has flaws, but I think there are generally enough changes to it that to the people who care about it, it remains interesting (shields in 1.6, anyone).
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I'm not out to attack Counter-Strike. It's not my game (I prefer large environments, such as those provided by the Battlefield series). The point is that immaturity is rampant in online gaming. PCs are no better or worse than consoles in this respect...anyone who plays both regularly knows this.

hikeskool said:
As for the mouse and keyboard, well, it's really funny that you guys think that you can control a FPS with the same precision with a pad. I guess it's kind of like a one-armed man trying to box: pretty fruitless and (I'd imagine) kind of funny to watch, in a sick sort of way. I'll just leave it at that.
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Don't associate your lack of skill with a pad as being an inherent flaw to all game controllers. I've heard these types of arguments made countless times. Someone gets accustomed to one type of control and they think that is the only way it can be done.

For example, there are people who play Desert Combat and swear on their life that is impossible to fly well with the keyboard. I (And many others) have adapted to this method of control and do quite well with it, despite the "fact" that flight sticks are better. We dominate them and from that point on we are obviously cheating. The same thought applies to racing wheels, arcade sticks, and the keyboard/mouse combo.
 
I don't think anyone's denying a mouse is more "accurate", my complaint is with the keyboard (all-digital, awkward mashing of fingers). Analog movement adds a lot of tactical nuance to games; a keyboard basically gives you walk and run, sometimes one other setting. And you have to press modifiers to get these settings. In fast run-n-gun games this isn't an issue, but it is for slow, methodic games (Thief 3)...it adds an entire dimension of play. Thief 3 also had a unique analog trigger feature that allowed you to de-nock an arrow simply by letting up slowly on the trigger; this was absent in the PC version. Plus there's no other choice in driving games, analog buttons/triggers/sticks give far more precision than one-setting keyboard keys. The keyboard's only great advantage, in my opinion, is the assignment of hot-keys.

A PC snob will immediately dismiss force feedback as a gimmick, but I think it does much to add to immersion when implemented well. Recoil of a gun for instance, or differences in road textures, or the jostle of the girl's arm when dragging her around in ICO. This entire dynamic is lost when using a keyboard and mouse.

So yeah, a mouse is unparalleled for aiming, but I aim just fine with the sticks, and get all the other benefits of an ergonomic controller specifically designed around gaming. You can use a controller with PCs and get many of these benefits obviously, but it's never quite as centric as if it were on a native console (often you still have to use the mouse to interface with the game on some level, and press keys to go to menus and save/load and whatever else, plus there's the whole ordeal of initially setting up the bindings).

And anyone still using the "a mouse will slaughter a controller online" argument these days post-Dreamcast is completely off-target. PC gamers are not going to be playing on Xbox Live; consoles are centered around a thing called "standards". ;) Evident in a standard hardware set, all DVD games, reference controller/headset, broadband-only Live, zeroconf networking which means no fucking with opening ports and exchanging IPs, upcoming standard HD w/AA (without setting the crap manually and testing it), I could go on..

PC (or in my case Mac) games are cool though! I am eager to try the new Out of Hell mod that just released for UT2k4, and am impatiently awaiting Nightblade. I'm currently knee-deep in the fantastic Fallout; I missed out on that way back.
 
Abysmal said:
PC (or in my case Mac) games are cool though! I am eager to try the new Out of Hell mod that just released for UT2k4, and am impatiently awaiting Nightblade. I'm currently knee-deep in the fantastic Fallout; I missed out on that way back.
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Well there is your problem you have never gamed on a PC. Did they ever make a 2 button mouse for Macs? ;)
 
Nah, I was the biggest PC elitist out there since the early 80s, swore by the keyboard/mouse and actually cared about little graphical superficialities, and constantly lied to myself that all this fucking around with PC headaches was truly worth it. Things are different now, different perspective.

(not intending to be condescending, I really was that way)
 
This weekend I caught a fever, and the only perscription was more cowbel.... er clasic gaming. I downloaded Star Control 2 and Dosbox, and I found myself caught up in the game all over again.

This brought up an interesting question .... even after all these years, even with a 2D graphics engine, I still found myself interested in Star Control 2. Yet newer graphic intensive games such as doom3, farcry, Half-life 2 are little more then a chore to play through again.

I really think game makers need to concentrate on story more, and stop circle jerking each other over who has the most realistic ray traced shadow.
 
Halfdead said:
killing of PC gaming + killing entertaming on PC = linux rise to power those are the only things holding me from going linux.

+ not forget about apple posible entering the X86 market now
M$ shooting them self in to foot

i bet they will be releasing some games under microsoft studios ported to PC or else linux will be alll over PCs :cool:


they have to be very careful
on the positite side if this happens we all be gettings windows for cheap now when linux and apple attack. competition rules
M$ will be the next nintendo and after a few year's they go the same way as sega lol

----rip
M$ 2049
--- :D


they attacking them self

they should have keep on going with xbox 1 architecture X86 and bring xbox and PC gaming together make both world happy more games for PC & cheap consoles for kids that play the same games @ 720p & make them pay for xbox live/and charge for right to write games for there PC console
sadly no one knows what will happen now............ :(
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Hah, good points. I didn't even consider the monopoly involved here.
 
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