New Rig Advice

[xRACKx]

So I was planning to buy a new rig to prep for BF3, Diablo 3, Skyrim, etc... but I'm having quite a dilemma on the video card route I wanted to take. Since I wanted this rig to be able to max out any game at 1900x1200 while maintaining 60+ FPS...

My choices now are...

1) EVGA 570 Classified SLI (best bang for buck if I'm going to spend over $500 on video cards)
2) Asus 580 ROG (but I don't this will accomplish the 60+ fps goal in all games)
3) Wait for Keplar or Southern Islands which may be out 2012 Q1 and 2011 Q4 (kind of late for the games I wanted to play but most smart)

Wanted to get more opinions from everyone of recommendations. My gut is telling me to wait for the new stuff and just wait on playing the new games.

For FYI... The rest of the planned rig specs are...

I7 2600k or 2700k @ 5.0 (w/ Corsair H100 cooling)
Corsair 800D Case
Asus P8Z68-vPro
16 Gigs of Corsair Vengeance (1866)
Corsair AX-850 PS
Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
Some form of SSD 120gb (Sandforce bugs are still troubling)
2 TB WD Caviar Black as Secondary
Dell 2410U

Thanks in advance for all the help!

 

[DOOMHAMMA]

Diablo 3 will be fairly simple to max out, not a real concern. For the other two? Not so sure.. I'd say 570 SLI to be safe, or wait for the new cards (and play games later?).

 

[Forceman]

The problem with waiting is that I believe AMD is launching the midrange cards first, like they did last time. Which means the wait for new high-end stuff might drag on for quite a while (even though the new midrange may equal today's high-end - we'll have to wait to see). However, since all the games you mentioned aren't out yet, might be best to hold off and see if any new info drops on the next generation before deciding.

 

[Elf_Boy]

I have a plain gtx 580. I run at 1920*1280.

I have played Morrowind, Oblivion, am playing Rift and City of Heroes. I dont go for shooters often, not as much as I have back in the Doom, Heritic I/II Hexen days. Those are awesome. I miss playing those with the bright shiny new feeling they gave. Back on point.

Other games I have or do play maxed out with no feelable lag are: Bioshock I/II DS 3, (a great disappointment - screw you EA), The Witcher Enhanced Edition, and I started Dragon Age: Origins the mage starting line lost my interest, no doubt I will get back to it at some time. As well as other older titles that cant stress my system.

This gives me some perspective on how the 580 ROG will perform but not the SLI 570's.

Thing to note: My M2N 32 SLI Deluxe does not get the best out of my 580 due to bandwidth limitation in the bus. Even so I do well enough with pretty much all the eye candy and some AA AF turned on in everything I play. The only title I dont have literally everything maxed is City of Heroes and that is close to maxed.

I do not get 60 FPS and in those games 60 FPS is pure and simple ePeen bragging. You dont need it. Based on Morrowind and Oblivion getting 15-20 FPS will still feel smooth and responsive and run the game just fine.

Needing 60FPS is well a FPS issue where twitch reflexes and uber responsiveness makes all the difference in getting the frag or being the frag.

Diablo IiI will also be a game that getting 60 FPS is not relevant. Blizzard is well known for leveling the playing field so that anyone, $50,000 rig or last years super saver extreme atom based (dare I say celeron?) box can be on the same level in terms of combat effectiveness. Of course the better box will show a much prettier and immersive world at a significantly higher resolution.

My only other comment would be that the single 580 would be easily enhanced in a year or eighteen months when the prices have gone down, with another 580, where the two 570's would need to be jointly replaced or does your board support triple sli?

Hmm another thought.... I believe two stock 580's call for a minimum 1k or better power supply, do you have that? I suspect twin 570's have a lower energy requirement.

 

[Sebastianem]

It looks to me that your're putting together quite the rig! Obviously money is not the first issue here. I can say that 2ea 570s in SLI will whip a lone 580. I'm using 2GB 6950s in x-Fire with no issues whatsoever in the newest titles on a Dell U2711 (2560 x 1440), and trust me, I love my eye candy and I'm maxing out the graphical details.

I have to agree with the others, however, and follow your gut. If you can wait, with all these technological and game releases coming up SOON, it may be worth it to 'wait and see'.

 

[xRACKx]

Thanks everyone for all the responses so far!

@ Elf - For the 60 FPS thing... I definitely play alot of shooters which is why I wanted it. It's annoying when you turn... the frames slow down and throw off your twitch reflex. Plus I kind of feel if I'm going to be spending 400+ on a 580 or even better, whatever I get should be able to max out everything for that money. I guess I'm use to the old days where spending that kind of money pretty much guaranteed you that ability but these days, you can plop down that cash for a 580 and it still can't max in some games which is pretty crazy.


As for the "wait and see route"... the only thing that concerns me there is what Forceman said... the higher end stuff usually lags for little while. But my gut is saying... sure you can spend $600+ on 570 SLI's and blow stuff out of the water safely... but if the new die shrinks are as good as everyone is speculating... I'm going to be kicking myself after it comes out.

 

[TwistedAegis]

No harm in waiting a bit. BF3 is at least over a month away, D3 even longer (although I doubt you'll have issue maxing it with even a single 570). At 1920x1200 a single top end card - 580 or 6970 - should be able to handle nearly everything you throw at it with ease. I much prefer going that route, then adding a 2nd one at a later date, then immediately going with 2 mid-range cards.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

If you play fast twitchy multiplayer FPS:es I recommend a single fast GPU over any SLI / Crossfire solution, or dual GPU card.

There is an inherent lag with multiple GPU rendering in the most common AFR (Alternate Frame) rendering mode. This is alleviated if you switch to SFR (split frame rendering) on Nvidia or one of AMD's tile rendering modes (which operate sortof like the multithreaded cinebench benchmark) but these don't always work properly with all games.

(For instance, if I turn on AMD's tile mode in Counter-Strike:Source it completely flips out. Luckily enough it's an old enough game that I don't really need the crossfire for it to perform)

To understand why this input lag exists, you can read Tom's 1999 ATI Rage Fury Maxx review here... (I know, I don't like Tom's hardware either, but this is back when he wasn't as bad)

This illustrates the issue:

This should only be an issue at lower frame rates, but at 60fps a single GPU lag due to render time is 1/60s. On average with a dual GPU setup at the same frame rate, it's about 50% higher.

To me, this is probably below the level of perceptibility, and certainly rather small compared to the overall input lag of everything from the mouse to the LCD panel, but judging by how little input lag some people claim to be able to "feel" it may not be for everyone. Besides, less is better, right?

At 1920x1080 a good GTX580 should be enough to run 60+ fps with effects on in most titles (this is not the case at 2560x1600), but if you find its insufficient you could always save up and get another

I don't know if you've done SLI before, but there are always naggign little issues with multi GPU solutions, both from Nvidia and AMD, including compatibility,driver setup etc. one powerful GPU is almost always a better solution, provided it is fast enough.

 

[Lord_Exodia]

OP, I suggest you get 570 SLi, I have a feeling that nvidia will still hold the performance crown even in BF3 just like it did in BC2. They partner with companies better than AMD. I like AMD and I enjoy my crossfire setup quite a bit but when people post that they primarily wanna play that game I suggest nvidia. IF and that's a big IF they are launching Kepler in Q4 or early Q1 of next year and you hear some rumors sell your 2 570s and get those cards. In the meantime you can easily get your money's worth out of whatever you lose by enjoying everything current at max settings. That's my 2c for you OP

The problem with waiting is that I believe AMD is launching the midrange cards first, like they did last time. Which means the wait for new high-end stuff might drag on for quite a while (even though the new midrange may equal today's high-end - we'll have to wait to see). However, since all the games you mentioned aren't out yet, might be best to hold off and see if any new info drops on the next generation before deciding.

This is a rumor that I don't believe. With the 2 fabricaion companies struggling with the 28nm process there is no way either will launch mid range parts first. Mid range parts require quantities in excess of 100,000 cards or working GPU's To me it's much more realistic that they will launch the high end cards first and release 5000 units worldwide which is considered a hard launch for a high end card. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm only saying of all the rumors that have leaked that one to me is the most absurd of all. I'm more inclined to believe the rambus specs rumor.

 

[Forceman]

This is a rumor that I don't believe. With the 2 fabricaion companies struggling with the 28nm process there is no way either will launch mid range parts first. Mid range parts require quantities in excess of 100,000 cards or working GPU's To me it's much more realistic that they will launch the high end cards first and release 5000 units worldwide which is considered a hard launch for a high end card. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm only saying of all the rumors that have leaked that one to me is the most absurd of all. I'm more inclined to believe the rambus specs rumor.

Hmmm. I was under the impression that that was pretty much confirmed. Not sure where I got that impression though.

 

[Lord_Exodia]

Hmmm. I was under the impression that that was pretty much confirmed. Not sure where I got that impression though.

I think because everyone takes the word of those chinese people on that forum Expreview as scripture. The problem is there are many people there spreading lies and purposely leaking bad info than there are people with actual leaks. The 1920 SP 6970 rumor started there, also the rumors that it'll definitely be faster than a GTX 580.

I go by my intuition which is pretty good with this stuff and then look at the reported info and throw a little common sense to it. Best way to tell if something seems like it may happen or not.

They may keep that rumor going until AMD actually announces something or a more credible leak comes out.

It just doesn't make sense when you apply basic common sense. Both TSMC and GLOfo are having more difficulty than ever before transitioning to the 28nm node. Launching a mid range part in the vein of GTX 560 Ti or something equivalent will require TONS of cards unlike a high end GPU launch. It just doesn't add up to me.

 

[Forceman]

I guess the question then is, are the high-end parts ready for production? If they ran their development cycle on the idea of launching mid-range first, then following with high-end, it may not be so easy to switch that around (the high-end might not be ready yet) without delaying everything. I doubt both designs were planned to be ready at the same time, especially if one uses VLIW and the other uses GCN. But I'm no chip engineer.

 

[Lord_Exodia]

I agree, there could be a possibility amd planned it this way, however unless they settle for a paper launch we will probably not see anything until mid-late q1 2012 for a launch.

 

[LigTasm]

570 SLI will not max out all games at 1920x1200 with 60+ fps, so I doubt a single 580 no matter how fast will either. I run my 570's at 900/1800 and they perform worst in Crysis enthusiast averaging 35-40fps. Next worst is Crysis 2 DX11/Highres I average about 45-50fps, but its plenty smooth I don't really notice.

 

[xRACKx]

570 SLI will not max out all games at 1920x1200 with 60+ fps, so I doubt a single 580 no matter how fast will either. I run my 570's at 900/1800 and they perform worst in Crysis enthusiast averaging 35-40fps. Next worst is Crysis 2 DX11/Highres I average about 45-50fps, but its plenty smooth I don't really notice.

Wow really... darn I thought the only game I might have trouble with was Metro at that res with 2 570's. Guess I'll have to add Crysis to that mini list since going 2 580's would be a little overkill for the res I'm aiming for. But I am curious about the microstuttering I've been hearing about... have you noticed any with your setup LigTasm?

 

[Lord_Exodia]

Wow really... darn I thought the only game I might have trouble with was Metro at that res with 2 570's. Guess I'll have to add Crysis to that mini list since going 2 580's would be a little overkill for the res I'm aiming for. But I am curious about the microstuttering I've been hearing about... have you noticed any with your setup LigTasm?

Looks like you may have to go trifire ot tri sli for more than 60 fps. In that case I'd recommend tri fire as it looks from what I've seen that trifire lays the smack down on tri sli. 3 6950s unlocked e.g. 3 toxic 6950s unlocked should beat 3 gtx 570s. Maybe even 3 580s. The good thing is the 28nm process shrink should give a substantial boost in performance and you can sell the 3 cards you get now for a decent value and get only 2 high end kepler or southern island cards and still have more performance than the 3 you'll sell. This isn't guaranteed but my gut feeling tells me that this will be the case.

Here is a list of games you probably wont get 60 fps using only 2 cards with max detail in

Crysis
Crysis Warhead
Crysis 2
Metro 2033
Metro Last Light (coming soon)
The witcher 2

I may have missed one or 2.

 

[LigTasm]

Wow really... darn I thought the only game I might have trouble with was Metro at that res with 2 570's. Guess I'll have to add Crysis to that mini list since going 2 580's would be a little overkill for the res I'm aiming for. But I am curious about the microstuttering I've been hearing about... have you noticed any with your setup LigTasm?

No I haven't. I actually ride on the Vram limit a lot too and it causes no problems whatsoever. I also have a pair of HD 6970 and they perform about 10% faster in those games but still not 60fps constant.

Metro would be the only one I would worry about, and maybe witcher 2. Crysis was designed to run at 30fps and is smooth as butter when I play it.

 

[samuelmorris]

The problem isn't getting big enough GPU architectures I don't think, it's getting 28nm silicon in the first place, so I think the midrange cards could potentially be the ones to suffer. Depends how they run it.

Of a benchmark of 19 games from GameGPU, estimating some GTX570 SLI results, I think about 14 will work fine at 60fps+ with a pair of GTX570s at that res. Alice:Madness Returns will only achieve that with PhysX turned off, Crysis 2 will be a bit behind even in DX9 (average of 65 but minimum of around 50), and obviously much lower still in DX11 mode, Shogun 2 will be a bit behind in DX10 with MLAA (c. 55fps), and further behind in DX10.1/11 with FSAA, Rift will be quite well down (c. 40fps minimum) and The Witcher 2 will only be possible at high detail - using Ultra or Maximum will cut the frame rate down below 25.

 

[LigTasm]

The problem isn't getting big enough GPU architectures I don't think, it's getting 28nm silicon in the first place, so I think the midrange cards could potentially be the ones to suffer. Depends how they run it.

Of a benchmark of 19 games from GameGPU, estimating some GTX570 SLI results, I think about 14 will work fine at 60fps+ with a pair of GTX570s at that res. Alice:Madness Returns will only achieve that with PhysX turned off, Crysis 2 will be a bit behind even in DX9 (average of 65 but minimum of around 50), and obviously much lower still in DX11 mode, Shogun 2 will be a bit behind in DX10 with MLAA (c. 55fps), and further behind in DX10.1/11 with FSAA, Rift will be quite well down (c. 40fps minimum) and The Witcher 2 will only be possible at high detail - using Ultra or Maximum will cut the frame rate down below 25.

This sounds about right. I may buy witcher 2 just to see how it performs because I know it took a crap on my friends M18x with 6970 CF at 1080P on ultra.

 

[samuelmorris]

Easily - According to a benchmark, maxing out The Witcher 2 at just 1920x1080 resolution with a minimum frame rate of just 50fps would require four GTX580s in an 4-way SLI board. 'High' detail is much more forgiving, you can get a minimum of 60fps at 1920x1200 with two GTX570s.