New Here @ HF: Please help me finish off my new build...(processor+mobo)

M

mmaguy247

n00b
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
19
Hi everyone - long time lurker, first time poster, and I need your help! :D

I'm looking to upgrade my system again. Although it's not the biggest POS in the world, I think my processor is due for an upgrade, and my mobo/memory along with it.

I will primarily be using this for gaming/entertainment...but 90% gaming (Mainly WoW, with some others mixed in - I want to run WoW PERFECTLY). The rest will be internet browsing and what not, which will be fine with whatever gaming setup I put together.

Here's what I've got so far (with some of the parts coming from my old setup):

- I've linked to newegg what parts I could to make it easier -

Motherboard: nothing yet (currently running a DFI LanParty NF4 Ultra-D)
----------------------------------------------
Processor: nothing yet (currently running an AMD Athlon XP 3500+ @ 2.21GHz)
----------------------------------------------
Processor Cooling: nothing yet...obviously
----------------------------------------------
Memory: 2GB (2x1GB) Corsair XMS2 PC-6400
----------------------------------------------
HDD: 2x 500GB Western Digital SATA Drives (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
Graphics: PNY GeForce 9600GT 512MB DDR3
----------------------------------------------
Power: CoolerMaster Real Power Pro 650W (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
Case: HEC ATX Full Tower (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
CD/DVD Drives: Sony DVD RW (from my old setup)


And that's about it, so as you can see, right now I really need advice on a processor / motherboard combo that will suit me well, and also fit my memory (obviously).

In the past, and for the past 8+ years, I've been an AMD guy. But I will consider Intel again from the praise they seem to be gaining, and from what I can see, their parts aren't quite as expensive as they once were.

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR HELP!!!
 
This

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117165&Tpk=e3110

or this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115042&Tpk=Q9450

for the CPU, depending on what you want to spend, and what you intend to use the machine for.(Quad for heavy multitasking, folding, video encoding, etc., otherwise a higher clocked dual will do you fine for gaming)



This to cool the CPU

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233003



This

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136043

or this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136045

For the board. Depending on your budget basically. The P35 will clock the shit out of the Wolfdales if you intend to go E3110/E8400. I would get something with a heftier PWM (6-8 phase) for OC'ing a quad. The DK X38 fits that bill.
 
TheInternet1980 said:
This

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117165&Tpk=e3110

or this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115042&Tpk=Q9450

for the CPU, depending on what you want to spend, and what you intend to use the machine for.(Quad for heavy multitasking, folding, video encoding, etc., otherwise a higher clocked dual will do you fine for gaming)



This to cool the CPU

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233003



This

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136043

or this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136045

For the board. Depending on your budget basically. The P35 will clock the shit out of the Wolfdales if you intend to go E3110/E8400. I would get something with a heftier PWM (6-8 phase) for OC'ing a quad. The DK X38 fits that bill.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice. That cooler looks awesome, simple, yet awesome.

As far as the boards go, as you may already know, I use a DFI right now. My biggest complaint, is the ridiculous amount of tweaking that needs to be done to create a stable system.

The old me was into overclocking and all that sh1t. Now? I'd rather just have a rock solid gaming rig with stability > anything

How are the new DFI LanParty boards in comparison to my old one? (massive bios tweaks for stability based on memory and other various features)

Thanks again!
 
Whats your budget?

The DFI boards are stable even if you don't tweak the billion BIOS settings made available to you. If you'd like alternatives, Gigabyte, MSI, Abit, and Asus also have nice offerings. I'm guessing you don't need SLI, so stick with an Intel chipset. Since you don't need Crossfire, don't bother with the X38/X48 boards -- too pricey if you don't need dual 16x Crossfire. That leaves you with nice, cool running, easy overclocking P35 boards. In addition to the DFI P35 boards, also check out the following boards: GA-EP35-DS3L, P35 Neo2-FR, GA-EP35-DS3R, P5K-E, and the crowd favorite, IP35 Pro.

Also, the new P45 boards should be out soon, so you might want to wait for those. Oh yah, and the new vidcards from NVIDIA and ATI are also coming out in a few weeks, so wait for those, too.

For gaming, go with an E8400. If you'd like to keep your CPU longer than 2-3yrs, go for a Q6600 instead.

The Xigmatek HDT-S1283 recommended above is great, and you'll want this to go with it:
$5 - Thermalright LGA775 Bolt-Thru-Kit
 
mmaguy247 said:
Thank you for the advice. That cooler looks awesome, simple, yet awesome.

As far as the boards go, as you may already know, I use a DFI right now. My biggest complaint, is the ridiculous amount of tweaking that needs to be done to create a stable system.

The old me was into overclocking and all that sh1t. Now? I'd rather just have a rock solid gaming rig with stability > anything

How are the new DFI LanParty boards in comparison to my old one? (massive bios tweaks for stability based on memory and other various features)

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

Definitely like the Xigmatek. If you get the DK P35 though, you'll need to either replace the northbridge cooler with something else (Noctua NC-U6), or orient the HSF so it blows up.

Honestly, I had an NF4 Ultra-D with an opty 165, and it was a pain in the ass to pull 2.8 on it. I got to 4.2 on this DK P35 with simple voltage adjustments/memory timings/Jumper on the board set to 1333FSB. Never touched any of the in-depth settings really. MUCH easier than the Ultra-D
 
Ok, so I'm thinking about going with this...

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor

I'm pretty much salivating right now from what I hear out of this processor. I think I've been out of the game too long :eek:

BTW - I made a mistake earlier (not sure if it matters) but I have a AMD Athlon 64 3500+ "Venice" (I think I said Athlon XP :rolleyes: )

Now onto the board choices...and that ABIT IP35 intrigues me...I used to have an ABIT about 2 motherboards ago, and it was the most rock solid stable system I ever owned. Went to the DFI from that...and the DFI hasn't been so friendly :mad:

Someone tell me the IP35 is where it's at :D
 
The Q9300 is not worth it IMO. The average performance increase over the Q6600 is only 7%. The Q6600 can often be found for $200 but the Q9450 costs $275. Is 7% extra performance really worth the extra $75? Even if you go with the OEM Q9450, it's still $60 more for a 7% performance increase.

Anyway, the IP35 Pro is an awesome mobo. It's one of the best Intel mobos out now for overclocking.
 
Danny Bui said:
The Q9300 is not worth it IMO. The average performance increase over the Q6600 is only 7%. The Q6600 can often be found for $200 but the Q9450 costs $275. Is 7% extra performance really worth the extra $75? Even if you go with the OEM Q9450, it's still $60 more for a 7% performance increase.

Anyway, the IP35 Pro is an awesome mobo. It's one of the best Intel mobos out now for overclocking.
Click to expand...


I CANT WAIT!!!

Looks like I might keep Vista up and running afterall :p
 
Oh - another thing I should have noted. I run multiple displays (Two - 1 22.1" and another 21" ...roughly the same, slightly smaller on the 2nd)

Is there anything I should consider to help my graphics side of things, or is my 9600GT OK w/ the setup I'm going with?
 
If you want better gaming performance, go with an 8800GTS 512MB, or wait for the new vidcards, which are due out in a few weeks.
 
mmaguy247 said:
Oh - another thing I should have noted. I run multiple displays (Two - 1 22.1" and another 21" ...roughly the same, slightly smaller on the 2nd)

Is there anything I should consider to help my graphics side of things, or is my 9600GT OK w/ the setup I'm going with?
Click to expand...

Back on the motherboard issue first... Do not spend $140 on an open box motherboard. Usually the open box boards work fine, however sometimes you are just buying someone else's problem.

Grab a good deal on a 9600GT and then see how thing work out for the summer video cards. Its likely going to be a while before the great deals crop up on the new cards anyway. There is always something to be waiting for...Then if the new card are a lot better, you can just sell the 9600GT when you get a good price on one of the newer cards.
 
Ok, so after some homework, it looks like I'm going with the dual core 3.0GHz over the quad core for now.

Am I making a mistake or am I good for a year or two with the dual? Still open to last minute suggestions...:D
 
mmaguy247 said:
Ok, so after some homework, it looks like I'm going with the dual core 3.0GHz over the quad core for now.

Am I making a mistake or am I good for a year or two with the dual? Still open to last minute suggestions...:D
Click to expand...

This topic has been beaten to death, however I think going with a dual core is bad. You have a lot more overall flexibility and computing power with the Quad, and by no means is a Quad slow. Its very hard to find an advantage with a Core 2 Duo unless you are playing games in really low resolutions with barely anything running in the background. With a Quad you can still runs tons of background shit, so if you like to multitask, or want to get as much CPU as possible, Quad is definitely the way to go.

Since you play WoW, I will let you know what I can do with a Quad. I FRAPSed an entire Black Temple run in full resolution with no performance problems, AND compressed the previously recorded videos on the fly while I was playing and recording (so I could post the videos online). I was getting videos from one boss up online before we pulled the next boss. Meanwhile I had Vent, about 20 browser tabs, virus software, Bittorrent, and Media Player open (so I could watch the vids and make sure the vids were good) and still it kept running strong. You can not seamlessly do this with just two cores.
 
ocellaris said:
This topic has been beaten to death, however I think going with a dual core is bad. You have a lot more overall flexibility and computing power with the Quad, and by no means is a Quad slow. Its very hard to find an advantage with a Core 2 Duo unless you are playing games in really low resolutions with barely anything running in the background. With a Quad you can still runs tons of background shit, so if you like to multitask, or want to get as much CPU as possible, Quad is definitely the way to go.

Since you play WoW, I will let you know what I can do with a Quad. I FRAPSed an entire Black Temple run in full resolution with no performance problems, AND compressed the previously recorded videos on the fly while I was playing and recording (so I could post the videos online). I was getting videos from one boss up online before we pulled the next boss. Meanwhile I had Vent, about 20 browser tabs, virus software, Bittorrent, and Media Player open (so I could watch the vids and make sure the vids were good) and still it kept running strong. You can not seamlessly do this with just two cores.
Click to expand...

DAMN!!!

Ok. I'm going with the Quad core again :D

My MAIN purpose of this, is to get flawless WoW performance. I thought I was going to get that with the 9600GT, but it looks like my CPU (AMD Athlon 64 3500+) is the bottleneck once again....
 
I'd jump up a notch to this DFI board. Better quality all around. The other posts and recommendations in this thread are all good. Make sure you do indeed get the Thermalright bolt-through kit for the Xigmatek cooler.
 
ocellaris said:
This topic has been beaten to death, however I think going with a dual core is bad. You have a lot more overall flexibility and computing power with the Quad, and by no means is a Quad slow. Its very hard to find an advantage with a Core 2 Duo unless you are playing games in really low resolutions with barely anything running in the background. With a Quad you can still runs tons of background shit, so if you like to multitask, or want to get as much CPU as possible, Quad is definitely the way to go.

Since you play WoW, I will let you know what I can do with a Quad. I FRAPSed an entire Black Temple run in full resolution with no performance problems, AND compressed the previously recorded videos on the fly while I was playing and recording (so I could post the videos online). I was getting videos from one boss up online before we pulled the next boss. Meanwhile I had Vent, about 20 browser tabs, virus software, Bittorrent, and Media Player open (so I could watch the vids and make sure the vids were good) and still it kept running strong. You can not seamlessly do this with just two cores.
Click to expand...

+1 go with the q6600. Also IP35 Pro + S1283 are great choices, should be bale to hit 3.6 no trouble.
 
Valnar said:
I'd jump up a notch to this DFI board. Better quality all around. The other posts and recommendations in this thread are all good. Make sure you do indeed get the Thermalright bolt-through kit for the Xigmatek cooler.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm definetly getting the bolt thru kit, but I actually found one that was made by Xigmatek...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233019

I think I'm going to go with that one...does that look ok?

As of now, my final build looks something like this...

Motherboard: ABIT IP35 Pro
----------------------------------------------
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz
----------------------------------------------
Processor Cooling: XIGMATEK HDT-S1283 120mm
----------------------------------------------
Memory: 2GB (2x1GB) Corsair XMS2 PC-6400
----------------------------------------------
HDD: 2x 500GB Western Digital SATA Drives (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
Graphics: PNY GeForce 9600GT 512MB DDR3
----------------------------------------------
Power: CoolerMaster Real Power Pro 650W (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
Case: HEC ATX Full Tower (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
CD/DVD Drives: Sony DVD RW (from my old setup)
 
The Xigmatek bolt thru kit looks very much like the Thermalright one, the backplate looks like it has something top for insulation, plus they look like they give you extra brackets so you don't have to remove the push pins for the brackets included with the heatsink.

You're rig looks pretty good standard setup, you'll find a lot of people here with the same parts so that's good indication that you're fine.
 
mmaguy247 said:
Yeah, I'm definetly getting the bolt thru kit, but I actually found one that was made by Xigmatek...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233019

I think I'm going to go with that one...does that look ok?

As of now, my final build looks something like this...

Motherboard: ABIT IP35 Pro
----------------------------------------------
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz
----------------------------------------------
Processor Cooling: XIGMATEK HDT-S1283 120mm
----------------------------------------------
Memory: 2GB (2x1GB) Corsair XMS2 PC-6400
----------------------------------------------
HDD: 2x 500GB Western Digital SATA Drives (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
Graphics: PNY GeForce 9600GT 512MB DDR3
----------------------------------------------
Power: CoolerMaster Real Power Pro 650W (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
Case: HEC ATX Full Tower (from my old setup)
----------------------------------------------
CD/DVD Drives: Sony DVD RW (from my old setup)
Click to expand...

Get 4GB of RAM and you will be golden!
 
heatlesssun said:
The Xigmatek bolt thru kit looks very much like the Thermalright one, the backplate looks like it has something top for insulation, plus they look like they give you extra brackets so you don't have to remove the push pins for the brackets included with the heatsink.

You're rig looks pretty good standard setup, you'll find a lot of people here with the same parts so that's good indication that you're fine.
Click to expand...

Awesome! I'm freakin gitty excited about this...guess my true nerd qualities shine thru :p
 
ocellaris said:
Get 4GB of RAM and you will be golden!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll probably just buy the same two sticks that I've got now. I actually bought these on accident about 2 months ago for my current setup...idk...I wasn't thinking...

Another pair is only $58 so I'm probably going to double up on em. :cool:
 
heatlesssun said:
The Xigmatek bolt thru kit looks very much like the Thermalright one, the backplate looks like it has something top for insulation, plus they look like they give you extra brackets so you don't have to remove the push pins for the brackets included with the heatsink.

You're rig looks pretty good standard setup, you'll find a lot of people here with the same parts so that's good indication that you're fine.
Click to expand...

My Thermalright bolt through kit came with that same thing. From what I can tell, the extra piece on the cross brace is so screws do not scratch up the brace. Its a piece of plastic, it comes right off. There is really no need for it, the brace does not touch the motherboard (except in the middle).
 
mmaguy247 said:
Yeah, I'll probably just buy the same two sticks that I've got now. I actually bought these on accident about 2 months ago for my current setup...idk...I wasn't thinking...

Another pair is only $58 so I'm probably going to double up on em. :cool:
Click to expand...

What OS are you running? If you are running Vista, definitely get 4GB and never look back.
 
ocellaris said:
What OS are you running? If you are running Vista, definitely get 4GB and never look back.
Click to expand...

Yeah, definitely going to stick with Vista now that I'm upgrading the system. It's the only OS I've ever owned a valid copy of :p I'd like to continue that trend...
 
ocellaris said:
My Thermalright bolt through kit came with that same thing. From what I can tell, the extra piece on the cross brace is so screws do not scratch up the brace. Its a piece of plastic, it comes right off. There is really no need for it, the brace does not touch the motherboard (except in the middle).
Click to expand...

The plastic insulation is in case the board warps, which could ground out the board if the backplate is touching the case and the board at the same time. Its just added protection, no need to remove it.

Yes, the Xigmatek bolt-thru kit is fine, but its not universal -- it will only work with the xigmatek coolers. The universal aspect shouldn't affect 99.9% of the people buying the bolt thru kit anyhow, so don't worry about it.

mmaguy247 said:
Yeah, I'll probably just buy the same two sticks that I've got now. I actually bought these on accident about 2 months ago for my current setup...idk...I wasn't thinking...

Another pair is only $58 so I'm probably going to double up on em. :cool:
Click to expand...

The only issue with running 4 sticks of RAM is it puts more stress on the MCH since it requires more voltage. The added stress has been known to limit OC ability of the CPU.
 
enginurd said:
The plastic insulation is in case the board warps, which could ground out the board if the backplate is touching the case and the board at the same time. Its just added protection, no need to remove it.
Click to expand...

I would think a board would fail long before it warps enough to touch the backplate. I mean seriously...
 
enginurd said:
The only issue with running 4 sticks of RAM is it puts more stress on the MCH since it requires more voltage. The added stress has been known to limit OC ability of the CPU.
Click to expand...

Eh...that's a good point, but really, I can't afford a pair of 2GB sticks right now...

Am I really hurting for the 2 single sticks over the 4 or am I going to be OK for now...?
 
mmaguy247 said:
Eh...that's a good point, but really, I can't afford a pair of 2GB sticks right now...

Am I really hurting for the 2 single sticks over the 4 or am I going to be OK for now...?
Click to expand...


Get 4GB. If you go to 2, then go up to 4 later, you will kick yourself in the ass for not doing it sooner. Vista really shines with 4GB, not so much with 2GB.
 
ocellaris said:
Get 4GB. If you go to 2, then go up to 4 later, you will kick yourself in the ass for not doing it sooner. Vista really shines with 4GB, not so much with 2GB.
Click to expand...

I'll have 4GB either way, what I'm asking is whether or not I'll be ok with 2 pairs of this... or if I should absolutely be looking at a single pair of 2GB sticks.

Am I making sense? :p
 
mmaguy247 said:
I'll have 4GB either way, what I'm asking is whether or not I'll be ok with 2 pairs of this... or if I should absolutely be looking at a single pair of 2GB sticks.

Am I making sense? :p
Click to expand...

Running 4 sticks of RAM puts more stress on the MCH as opposed to 2 sticks. The added stress will slightly limit your OC. Its best to go with a single pair, 2x2GB kit.
 
enginurd said:
Running 4 sticks of RAM puts more stress on the MCH as opposed to 2 sticks. The added stress will slightly limit your OC. Its best to go with a single pair, 2x2GB kit.
Click to expand...

slightly limiting my overclocking ability? I'm not all that concerned with that for the time being...I won't be doing any hard overclocking til I actually get the much better ram...plus I hear these things overclock up to 3.0GHz with hardly any effort at all.

taking away from the extreme enthusiast standpoint, and I going to be OK for now until I can afford another $200 in ram to get the 2GBx2?
 
mmaguy247 said:
slightly limiting my overclocking ability? I'm not all that concerned with that for the time being...I won't be doing any hard overclocking til I actually get the much better ram...plus I hear these things overclock up to 3.0GHz with hardly any effort at all.

taking away from the extreme enthusiast standpoint, and I going to be OK for now until I can afford another $200 in ram to get the 2GBx2?
Click to expand...

You are getting a good motherboard so you do not have to worry about these things too much. Hitting 3.0 should be no problem, and if you can not get to 3, its not going to be because you are running 2 or 4 sticks of RAM, its going to be because you got one of the worst overclocking CPUs to leave an Intel fab in a long time :D
 
I went with the DFI LP DK x48 and a e8400 myself and love it. I would guess the X38 is basically the same board, just a bit different cooling design.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136047

As far as stability and OCing it was simple. My problem was using 4 sticks of 1gb corsair 667 ... it just didnt wanna oc as much as id like it to ... but thats not the boards fault.

But it was simple ... no changes to anything except
Set the CPU/RAM at 333/667
Set The FSB to 380
Puts me at 3.4 CPU and 760 RAM .. (sadly this is as fast as the ram wants to run without memtest errors.. the board and chip itself would easily go much higher .. It will boot at 3.6 and 400 FSB w/no changes but RAM fails a memtest after a while :( So I had to drop back down until I get better RAM)


OH .. there was one other change I had to do ... Bump the RAM volts to 2.0

But anyway ... yea .. the board themselve are very stable and easy to work with even without alot of tweaking. I love mine :) Looking forward to picking up some better RAM and see what she'll do :D
 
Should be able to hit 3.0 on stock VID, or at most 1 tick above. And a 4GB set will not set you back $200 - you can easily find it for under $100 actually. And with a q6600, it's pretty pointless to get anything over standard PC6400 anyway - you'll be hitting 3.6GHz @ stock multi on it if you ran the RAM @ rated speed (400FSB) - also most if not all RAM can easily hit 450+ (ie: 3.6 @ 8x multi), something where most quads will top out in that range, even w/ high end cooling.

Ram example: the bog standard pink heatspreadered A-Data PC6400 2x2GB set works just fine w/ my IP35 Pro, and I got my set for like $62 shipped (sans any MIR +silly CA tax tho :() about 2-3 weeks ago. If you can deal w/ the froo-froo sink color, they are a great bang for the buck way to 4GB (and often on sale @ both Newegg and Fry's/Outpost, usually w/ an MIR though).. Otherwise, PC8000 G.Skill's were on sale (the Egg) recently for $75-85.

[edit]
I love my IP35 Pro, but the DFI P35 DK is a damn fine value, retails at what ~$130? Also, with the P45 boards on the imminent horizon, you may want to hold off on that as well to see how retail samples of the DFI/Abit/others turn out, ie: IP45 Pro/IP43 Pro and so on. I'm not so sure there's a major difference between the P35 and P4x chipsets (and ICH10 vs P35s ICH9), but they are on 65nm process (I think) vs P35s 90nm (again), which should help out w/ system/PWM temps hopefully.. The IP35 Pro's PWM temps for example, on a quad friggin' skyrocket... (w/ 2xF@H SMPs) 50-60c tops on dual, 90c+ (topped out @ 104c in recent heatwave) on a quad personally.
 
You don't need $200 to OC the Q6600, and here's why:

/*------------- <cut n paste> -------------*/
Formulas for Intel platform @ 1:1 settings: (base FSB speed is SDR, or single data rate)
c × [Base FSB speed] = CPU Clock speed (c = CPU Multiplier)
2 × [Base FSB speed] = RAM speed (DDR: double data rate)
4 × [Base FSB speed] = Effective FSB speed (QDR: quad data rate)

On Intel platforms, running the RAM higher than a 1:1 ratio with the CPU is, for the most part, useless, so don't bother trying to do so. If the BIOS does it for you, just let it. All you need is a 1:1 config, though. Here's some possible clock speeds (as always with OC'ing, your results will vary):

Q6600: 9 × 266 = 2.4Ghz, DDR2-533 << STOCK speeds
Q6600: 9 × 333 = 3.0Ghz, DDR2-667 << Nice OC
Q6600: 9 × 378 = 3.4Ghz, DDR2-756 << Good OC, near max for B3 stepping w/ good air cooling
Q6600: 9 × 400 = 3.6Ghz, DDR2-800 << Great OC, near max for G0 stepping w/ good air cooling
/*------------- </cut n paste> -------------*/

All you need is $80 2x2 GB DDR2-800, as Kush mentioned.

I know you already have a 2x1GB kit, so just sell that and get a 2x2GB kit. Or if you don't want to sell it, get a 2x2GB kit anyways for 6GB total. Then you can make use of that extra RAM with a RAMdisk program. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top