New gaming build, any thoughts?

[Shocked]

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc2)

99% gaming. Have a workstation right next to my gaming rig (which is technically being replaced by my current 1366 rig).

Play pretty much everything. MMOs, RTS, FPS... quad boxing in EVE. Yeah.

What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?

Flexible, really. Know that's not really an answer, but...$1200-$1300 total? Can go up or down if it's worth it.

3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.

Metro Atlanta, GA, US

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.

CPU, Motherboard, RAM, SSD, PSU, Case, HSF

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.

2x Sapphire HD6870s, 2x Western Digital Black 1TB 6Gb/s in RAID0, X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, LG Blu-ray burner

Input devices: Logitech G500, Logitech G15, Spyder3 Elite

6) Will you be overclocking?

Yep. Not hardcore oc'ing/benching, just whatever I can get stable at decent temps.

7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? What size is it?

Planar PX2611w - 26" 1920x1200 H-IPS wide gamut monitor. Transferring it to my workstation and replacing it with a Samsung S27A750D (27" 1920x1080) soon-ish, though.

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?

Within the next week.

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video (as a backup or main GPU)? etc.1

Crossfire and SLI support (preferably at least 3 PCI-E slots for future upgrades), Sata 6Gb/s, eSATA. Don't think I have a use for USB 3.0 yet.

Haven't used anything other than ASUS since about 2005, though I'm not opposed to trying another brand.

0) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?

Still have an unused license from the family 3-pack. So, Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit upgrade from one of my many old XP licenses.

---

Here's what I figure:

CPU: Intel Core i5 2500K - $220
Motherboard: ASUS P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3 - $200
RAM: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 Cas 9 x2 - $100
SSD: OCZ Vertex 3 120GB 2.5" - $190
HDD: (2x WD 1TB Black 6Gb/s in RAID0)
Video Card: (2x Sapphire 6870s)
Sound Card: (X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Professional)
PSU: Corsair AX1200 - $280
Case: HAF-X - $200
HSF: Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus - $20

The PSU is serious overkill, but for future GPU upgrades (which may happen sooner or later, I haven't decided). Also tired of buying new PSUs, figure I might as well buy one that will take anything I throw at it for a long time to come.

Not sure about the memory. Liked that it was on the QVL, know that's not a big deal, though I have had some issues in the past. Though it's also tall, which worries me regarding the size of the HSF. Also don't really need 16GB, but for some reason I don't feel like downgrading from 12GB.

Also been doing some research on other HSFs, figure the 212 is the best bang for the buck but not sure if I should spend a bit more money anyway.

Any input or suggestions?

 

[pelo]

You have an unlocked CPU and ram made for overclocking. I'd get a cheaper pair of ddr3 1600.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820249014 5 year warranty based on Marvell. same drive as the crucial m4's but cheaper and better warranty and comes with 2.5>3.5 converter. Almost as fast as the vertex 3 in most benchmarks and pulls ahead in noncompressible data.

I don't quite understand the need for a sound card. I remember spending $200 on one when the onboard sound was notoriously poor on AMD chipsets a few years ago, but unless you're an audiophile and need it for something specific I'd skip it.

The corsair PSU is way overkill. With crossfired 6870s and a heavily OC'd 2500k you won't be pulling half of the PSU's max wattage. Something like this 750 is more than enough. If you're not going to be playing on 3 monitors and a massive resolution where you need 3 highest end videocards, you'll be fine with ~800watts.

If you have a microcenter near you you can probably grab the 2500k+motherboard for cheaper. Otherwise it looks good.

 

[Shocked]

You have an unlocked CPU and ram made for overclocking. I'd get a cheaper pair of ddr3 1600.

Yeah, I was a little worried about compatibility issues with non-QVL RAM that I've had in the past, but that's what I was leaning towards. I didn't care for the tall heatspreader but was going for compatibility.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820249014 5 year warranty based on Marvell. same drive as the crucial m4's but cheaper and better warranty and comes with 2.5>3.5 converter. Almost as fast as the vertex 3 in most benchmarks and pulls ahead in noncompressible data.

Thanks for that.

I don't quite understand the need for a sound card. I remember spending $200 on one when the onboard sound was notoriously poor on AMD chipsets a few years ago, but unless you're an audiophile and need it for something specific I'd skip it.

Already have the soundcard, and sounds better to me. So I figure I might as well use it. Creative drivers are a little annoying, but...

The corsair PSU is way overkill. With crossfired 6870s and a heavily OC'd 2500k you won't be pulling half of the PSU's max wattage. Something like this 750 is more than enough. If you're not going to be playing on 3 monitors and a massive resolution where you need 3 highest end videocards, you'll be fine with ~800watts.

Yeah, I know. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but it's for future high-end CF/SLI. I'm not at all satisfied with my 6870s even at 1920x1200, so even if whatever I plan is overkill, I just like the flexibility.

 

[pelo]

Crossfired 6870s is enough oomf at 1080/1200, single monitor setups. If you are planning to go for an eyefinity shindig you may want to buy a better single videocard then upgrade to crossfire later rather than settling on a solution that's more suitable to a single monitor setups. Maybe a 6970? 6950 2GB and flashed to 6970? Or even wait for the new 7xxx models coming out in the next month or two.

Either way, that 1200W PSU is still way more than you need.

 

[Shocked]

Crossfired 6870s is enough oomf at 1080/1200, single monitor setups. If you are planning to go for an eyefinity shindig you may want to buy a better single videocard then upgrade to crossfire later rather than settling on a solution that's more suitable to a single monitor setups. Maybe a 6970? 6950 2GB and flashed to 6970? Or even wait for the new 7xxx models coming out in the next month or two.

Either way, that 1200W PSU is still way more than you need.

Upgrading the video cards separately. Maybe acceptable performance is different for me than most people, but like I said, my 6870s in my current 4GHz i7 1366 rig aren't anywhere near enough for me. Also probably has something to do with the fact that 1920x1200 on a 26" monitor you have to apply much more AA for it to look good.

Either way, every time I buy a PSU I end up regretting not going bigger at some point when I look at upgrading my video cards. And eyefinity isn't totally out of the question in the next year or so.

But yeah, I get what you guys are saying. Just think I might be kicking myself down the line. Don't mind spending the extra money now, and it would be nice not to have to think about it pretty much ever again.

 

[pelo]

If multiple monitor/eyefinity is something you'd invest in down the line then you may want to skip the crossfire 6870s and opt for a single beefier card then crossfire/SLi it if you need to.

You seem like you're set on getting that PSU Is there any way you'd drop down to a 1000W? maybe 900? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139034.

It's often the single worst decision people make when building a rig: overestimating the wattage and therefore buying the wrong PSU. It's not that you won't use 1200W, but then we'd be talking 3 590s and 6990s, but you're down there talking dual 6870s. That's about a 600W discrepancy. The $$ saved can go towards a better GPU or even a 2600k.

6990+6970 OC'd still doesn't go anywhere near that, and that's with a platform that uses more power than your 2500k.

 

[Shocked]

I do appreciate the input guys. I think I probably didn't explain some things all that well, but I was afraid of making the OP like twelve pages long.

If multiple monitor/eyefinity is something you'd invest in down the line then you may want to skip the crossfire 6870s and opt for a single beefier card then crossfire/SLi it if you need to.

Already have the 6870s. Probably should have mentioned but all the stuff in parenthesis is stuff I already have, though I did mention them in the questions I answered.

You seem like you're set on getting that PSU Is there any way you'd drop down to a 1000W? maybe 900? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139034.

Not really set on anything. Might wait for Kepler but think the immediate plan is to get a 7970 at launch, and then down the line another one or a 7990 for Tri-Fire if I really wanted to go crazy (which I would probably do if I went eyefinity). Top it off with a PhysX card (though I doubt I'll do that) and I think there's some pretty hefty usage there. With that in mind I'm totally open to suggestions.

It's often the single worst decision people make when building a rig: overestimating the wattage and therefore buying the wrong PSU. It's not that you won't use 1200W, but then we'd be talking 3 590s and 6990s, but you're down there talking dual 6870s. That's about a 600W discrepancy. The $$ saved can go towards a better GPU or even a 2600k.

I could actually afford the 2600k or 2700k right now, which is something I actually wanted to get some input on. Less about having the money for them than it is if they're worth it. Don't actually need HT, so the big things are the extra cache and if they overclock any easier.

 

[pewter77]

You'll regret the full tower, especially if you're air cooling, go with a mid tower imo. Even if you would go water, i would not go that case. For that price you'll get a top mid tower thats really nice. The Corsair Line 650d 650t 500R all are good, lian li is good but imo overrated. Theres also a good amount of nzxt cases that are good Phantom comes to mind if you like the look. Haf 922 or w/e is better than the Haf X as well.

 

[Dangman]

CPU wise, no the 2600K is not worth it for a gaming build. OC's about the same and while the larger cache does provide a slight performance increase, the increase isn't high enough to justify the extra $100 or so.

Personally I trust Crucial more than I trust Plextor. As such, I recommend the Crucial m4 128GB instead:
$200 - Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 2.5" 128GB SSD

RAM wise, the heatsinks on that RAM will cause interference with the HSF you chose. So I recommend this RAM instead
$43 - G.Skill Sniper F3-12800CL9D-8GBSR 2 x 4GB DDR3 1600 RAM

pelo is correct that the PSU is a bit overkill. The 750W PSU that he recommended is more than enough. With that said, if you still want to burn money, go for the larger PSU.

Case wise, personally not a fan of that HAF X case as I think it's overpriced for the features it offers. There are better abng for the buck cases out there:
$50 - NZXT Source 210 Elite White with Black Front Trim ATX Case
$70 - Lian Li Lancool PC-K58 ATX Case
$70 - Lian Li Lancool PC-K56 ATX Case
$80 - Lian Li Lancool PC-K58W ATX Case
$65 - Lian Li Lancool PC-K7B ATX Case
$98 - Cooler Master CM690 II Advance ATX Case
$90 - Cooler Master HAF 922 RC-922M-KKN1-GP ATX Case
$100 - Corsair Carbide Series 400R ATX Case
$100 - Lian Li PC-7B Plus II ATX Case
$120 - Lian Li PC-9F ATX Case
$120 - Fractal Design Define R3 Arctic White ATX Case
$130 - Fractal Design Define R3 Black Pearl ATX Case
$120 - Fractal Design Define R3 Silver Arrow ATX Case
$133 - NZXT Phantom PHAN-001WT White Full Tower ATX Case
$140 - NZXT Phantom PHAN-001BK Black Full Tower ATX Case
$137 - Antec P280 ATX Case
$140 - Antec Performance One Series P183 V3 ATX Case
$143 - Cooler Master HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP ATX Case
$144 - Silverstone RV03B-W ATX case
$150 - Corsair Graphite Series 600TM ATX Case
$160 - Silverstone RV02B-W ATX case
$164 - Corsair Special Edition White Graphite Series 600T ATX Case
$178 - Silverstone RV02B-EW ATX case
$190 - Corsair Obsidian Series 650D ATX Case
$230 - Silverstone FT02B ATX Case
$270 - Corsair Obsidian Series 800D CC800DW Full Tower ATX Case

 

[tiraides]

Head to the Atlanta Micro Center and see if you can obtain the i5-2500K and P8Z68-V PRO/GEN.3 there in a combo deal.

If you stick with the Corsair Vengeance RAM, go with the LP model (which stands for "low profile"). Otherwise, go with a different brand-name RAM kit (DDR3 1333 or DDR3 1600, 1.5V regardless) with low profile heatspreaders.

I recommend either the Crucial M4 or Samsung 830 over the OCZ Vertex 3. OCZ's history of poor performance and customer service as well as potential BIOS issues with SSDs using SandForce controllers (that still exist in some SSDs) make the Vertex 3 a no-go for me.

Are you in love with your PSU and case selections? I ask because you don't really need more than 1000 watts for a dual-GPU CrossFire or SLI setup. And even though the HAF-X isn't a bad choice in a case, there may be something with similar features for a bit less.

 

[Shocked]

You'll regret the full tower, especially if you're air cooling, go with a mid tower imo. Even if you would go water, i would not go that case. For that price you'll get a top mid tower thats really nice. The Corsair Line 650d 650t 500R all are good, lian li is good but imo overrated. Theres also a good amount of nzxt cases that are good Phantom comes to mind if you like the look. Haf 922 or w/e is better than the Haf X as well.

I hadn't considered that. I have a HAF 932 now, which I love, but there's definitely not that much extra room for anything more than 2 GPUs and a sound card the way I have it set up (and it's pretty tight at that). But moving smaller is definitely something I'll consider.

pelo is correct that the PSU is a bit overkill. The 750W PSU that he recommended is more than enough. With that said, if you still want to burn money, go for the larger PSU.

Wow, thank you for the list of cases. That definitely gives me something to look into.

PSU wise, yeah, 750 would be more than enough if I were sticking with my 6870s. Not the plan in the immediate future though.

 

[tiraides]

PSU wise, yeah, 750 would be more than enough if I were sticking with my 6870s. Not the plan in the immediate future though.

Even so, you still don't need to spend that much on a good PSU.

 

[4th3truth]

If you want future GPU compatibility I would go with my very near future build.

$50 Rosewill CHALLENGER 3xFans included
$230 x79ma-gd45 (2x PCIe3.0x16)
$120 Corsair TX850W (future crossfire 7950s?)
$26 cooler-master Hyper 412 PWM (RR-H412-20PK-R1) 412
$300 i7-3820 OC to 4.2GHZ
$100 Gskill z series 16GB 4 x 4 1600 MHZ, native FSB of 3820, XMP 1.3
$159 Cosair CSSD-F120GB3-BK Force Series 3 Solid State Drive
$350 for 7950 non-reference cooler

TOTAL ~$1335 before shipping
====================================================================
ACCESSORIES

$30 Raptor Gaming LK1 Black & Red anti ghosting
$449 Samsung SyncMaster S23A950D (hd3d TriHD DDD ATI 2011 showcase Can convert any 2D to 3D by itself, option increase 3D FPS?!
$45 rechargeable batteries lir2025 and charger for 3d glasses
$54 for SH-B123L bluray-ROM combo
$180 razer tiamat 7.1 (10 speaker headset)
$0 most have gaming mice already like me

~$758 before shipping
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~$2093 GRAND TOTAL

more explanation at http://forums.overclockersclub.com/index.php?showtopic=189286
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
YOUR ANSWER IMO FOR A BUDGET RANGE OF LGA1155 SOCKET
========================================================================================================
CPU, Motherboard, RAM, SSD, PSU, Case, HSF

$310 i7-3820 OC to 4.2GHZ on air (physics performance better then 2600k, native pcie3.0 GPU future)

$210 x79ma-gd45 (2x PCIe3.0x16 no need for more then 2 slot as you can get quad setup with 2 x16 slots)

$89 CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) native FSB oc with multiplierx to 3.9Ghz then OC ram)
--------XMP1.2 not 1.3 newest standard as Gskill which is a less reliable manufacture and is not worth going for.

$159 Cosair CSSD-F120GB3-BK Force Series 3 Solid State Drive

$120 Corsair TX850W (future crossfire 7950s can do 6850s easy)

$50 Rosewill CHALLENGER 3xFans included(has enough room for your duel cards)

$26 cooler-master Hyper 412 PWM (RR-H412-20PK-R1) 412 (believe it or not the 212+ does better then some water cooling solutions so the 412 should do quite well getting to 4.2Ghz

$964 for a LGA2011 with 16GB quad channel ram, 120GB for a few games and OS, native pcie3.0 16x 2x slots for maxing future quad gpu setups.

The Xbox 720 (Logo) or whatever its going to be will for sure lead many programmers to again limit the PC's potential for mostly console ports. 8 more years of console ports will be due to bad economy pushing more to console gamers because it is cheaper. This is reality.

The new X-box will probably have the successor to trinity APU. Quad core is the next gen, 2MB L3 Cache. , the rest of the power is from the GPU.

THE 3820 HAS 2.255KB PER CORE WITH HThreading. IF THIS CPU DOESN'T LAST IN GAMING THE "KNIGHTS CORNER" 50CORE looks to be LGA 2011s size but if not IVYBRIDGE-E 8 CORES 30MB CACHE will do any game till 2020.

 

[Tsuyoi]

4th3truth you've pretty much ignored everything the OP and other members have said in this thread, and just copy pasted some build you think is good for the future.

There's a whole plethora of problems with the build you're suggesting. Overall, it looks like you just did some basic research on "whats hot and new" in terms of gaming tech, and slapped it all together.

Let's start at the top of yoru list and work our way down.

Rosewill Challenger: A great entry level case for beginner builds, but by no means a good case for anyone considering to spend more than $1000 on the entire build. It sadly lacks the features/quality of higher end cases, such as front USB 3.0 ports, good cable management, and no fan speed control for the included fans. Not to mention, the interior will be very cramped for a serious gaming build.

Motherboard+CPU: Really? An i7-3820 with a $210 MoBo for gaming? No game out right now can even take full advantage of the 2600k, much less a 3820. Even if an overkill CPU is in order, Ivy Bridge would be a much better choice.

RAM: There is no documented evidence of Corsair being more reliable or better for gaming than G.Skill. Read any THOROUGH RAM tests, you'll see the top brands such as Corsair, Gskill, Kingston, etc are all pretty much equal. In fact, you list G.Skill yourself in your first list of parts to buy.

SSD: The Corsair Force is based on Sandforce controllers, proven to be less stable than SSDs such as the Crucial M4. Not a top pick.

GPU: The 7950 hasn't even been released yet, and probably will be on back order once it is. He's looking to build the computer now, not wait 3-4 months minimum.


Next, time please full read through the OP's requirements and other comments before just popping in to post some random build.

 

[4th3truth]

Jealousy abound. Your offended it seems and why? My answer was legit and had my added build, but thanks anyways on the recommendation on the SSD I will research more.

Again I am sorry that my build offends yours because it is going to out-preform yours,Tsuyoi.

 

[Tsuyoi]

I have an i7 clocked to 4.5 and a MSI Lightning 580 at 950. I'd love to see you outperform me in any game. This isn't jealousy. I've seen plenty of 3k-4k builds. This is a case of you giving bad and needless advice. You answer wasn't "legit", it had nothing to do with what the OP wanted.

You haven't offended me either. I'm stating a simple fact: you posted your build without any real "recommendations" that have anything to do with what OP wanted/listed.

 

[Dangman]

Guys, keep it civil. Back away, cool down, and then post if you need to. Otherwise, walk away

 

[E4g1e]

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc2)

99% gaming. Have a workstation right next to my gaming rig (which is technically being replaced by my current 1366 rig).

Play pretty much everything. MMOs, RTS, FPS... quad boxing in EVE. Yeah.

What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?

Flexible, really. Know that's not really an answer, but...$1200-$1300 total? Can go up or down if it's worth it.

3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.

Metro Atlanta, GA, US

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.

CPU, Motherboard, RAM, SSD, PSU, Case, HSF

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.

2x Sapphire HD6870s, 2x Western Digital Black 1TB 6Gb/s in RAID0, X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, LG Blu-ray burner

Input devices: Logitech G500, Logitech G15, Spyder3 Elite

6) Will you be overclocking?

Yep. Not hardcore oc'ing/benching, just whatever I can get stable at decent temps.

7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? What size is it?

Planar PX2611w - 26" 1920x1200 H-IPS wide gamut monitor. Transferring it to my workstation and replacing it with a Samsung S27A750D (27" 1920x1080) soon-ish, though.

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?

Within the next week.

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video (as a backup or main GPU)? etc.1

Crossfire and SLI support (preferably at least 3 PCI-E slots for future upgrades), Sata 6Gb/s, eSATA. Don't think I have a use for USB 3.0 yet.

Haven't used anything other than ASUS since about 2005, though I'm not opposed to trying another brand.

0) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?

Still have an unused license from the family 3-pack. So, Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit upgrade from one of my many old XP licenses.

---

Here's what I figure:

CPU: Intel Core i5 2500K - $220
Motherboard: ASUS P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3 - $200
RAM: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 Cas 9 x2 - $100
SSD: OCZ Vertex 3 120GB 2.5" - $190
HDD: (2x WD 1TB Black 6Gb/s in RAID0)
Video Card: (2x Sapphire 6870s)
Sound Card: (X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Professional)
PSU: Corsair AX1200 - $280
Case: HAF-X - $200
HSF: Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus - $20

The PSU is serious overkill, but for future GPU upgrades (which may happen sooner or later, I haven't decided). Also tired of buying new PSUs, figure I might as well buy one that will take anything I throw at it for a long time to come.

Not sure about the memory. Liked that it was on the QVL, know that's not a big deal, though I have had some issues in the past. Though it's also tall, which worries me regarding the size of the HSF. Also don't really need 16GB, but for some reason I don't feel like downgrading from 12GB.

Also been doing some research on other HSFs, figure the 212 is the best bang for the buck but not sure if I should spend a bit more money anyway.

Any input or suggestions?

I am getting back to the topic after so many posts going either off topic or slamming other people's build lists.

My honest opinion on that build is that there are a few problems:

1) That RAM kit's heat spreaders will interfere with the installation of the HSF you selected. It will force the fan to be mounted way off center on the HSF. This can result in either fitment problems inside most cases and/or poorer than expected CPU cooling performance. If you must buy a Corsair Vengeance RAM kit, go for the Vengeance LP (Low-Profile) kit as that kit has much lower-profile heat spreaders that will not interfere with the proper installation of a tower-style HSF (the problem is caused by the DIMM slots on the motherboard that you selected being very close to the CPU socket).

2) The OCZ Verrtex 3 SSDs are all based on Sandforce SF-22xx series controllers, which have proven themselves to be extremely unstable (they all suffer from random BSOD issues, and some people still have random BSOD issues even after firmware updates).

3) That AX 1200 PSU, as you stated, is seriously overkill. You see, both AMD and Nvidia have been working to reduce the power consumption of their high-end GPUs. As such, that AX 1200 is really necessary only if you're going to run three or four high-end GPUs simultaneously - and that would require an equally ridiculously overkill LGA 2011 platform and an X79 chipset plus a grossly expensive CPU (the cheaper of the two LGA 2011 options currently costs $600, and that does not include the motherboard which costs an extra $300 or so). Even with two next-gen high-end GPUs, with your planned i5-2500K you can do perfectly well with a good 850W PSU such as a Corsair AX 850.

4) The only reason to get that HAF X case at its current $200 price is if you need a case in a hurry for more than two high-end GPUs in the same system.