New Computer - Win7 or Win10?

Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by OrangeWolf, Apr 13, 2016.

  1. OrangeWolf

    OrangeWolf Gawd

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    Hey HardForum,

    I'm still running my rig from early 2011 (see sig) and had planned on upgrading near the end of 2016. I admit I haven't given much thought to which version of Windows to run, except that I had no intention of running Windows 8.

    But I heard that Kaby Lake motherboards might somehow... not allow Windows 7 to run? Is that accurate?

    And honestly I'm a little concerned with running Windows 10 in terms of it being compatible. I've still got one or two programs that I have to run on Windows XP on my old machine. I see reviews of games on Steam that express excitement at which games run well on Windows 10.

    So, in short... in terms of older software and games, how much of a headache would I get from Windows 10 instead of Windows 7? The software I can run on old laptops, but if I build a new rig which would be used perhaps 50% for gaming, I don't want to suddenly cut down the library of games I can run by half by picking Windows10 instead of Windows7.

    Cheers
     
  2. athenian200

    athenian200 Gawd

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    I haven't heard that it won't actually allow Windows 7 to run. It's just that they're not going to continue pushing microcode updates and supporting new processor features on older versions of Windows. They also won't provide tech support if you can't get it to work, etc. People have blown Microsoft's statement on the matter out of proportion... I mean, it's not like they're still updating MS-DOS or older versions of Windows, but they still work on new computers (albeit in a limited way due to lack of available drivers). There's a possibility that you wouldn't be able to use some newer motherboard features, but that's about it.

    That said, I would actually go with Windows 10 for gaming because it's going to support DirectX12, and you're probably going to start seeing games take advantage of it by December. It won't be backported to older versions of Windows. That's really your biggest limitation right there.

    I've been able to get every game that worked on Windows 7 to work on Windows 10 with enough tweaking and playing with compatibility settings. There are a few that won't run on anything past XP, but that's generally because they don't play nice with the WOW64 subsystem (and even these usually work on 32-bit versions of 7 and 10). I mean, maybe I've been really lucky, but I haven't encountered a lot of games that just won't work at all on Windows 10 that did work on Windows 7. For instance, I have Morrowind working on my Surface Book with Windows 10... and that's a pretty old game. I had trouble getting MGXE to work, but I just had to install DirectX 9, set a compatibility mode, and restart. Now it runs in perfect 3:2 resolution at 1200x800.

    The main reason to keep Windows 7 is because of Windows Media Center and Windows Movie Maker. They've cut out a lot of multimedia stuff without offering a good replacement, so if you need any of those features, they're good reasons to stick with Windows 7.

    I think if you're really concerned, you could probably find a way to dual-boot until you're satisfied that Windows 10 can do everything you need. Or just keep your Windows 7 machine around for a while.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
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  3. OrangeWolf

    OrangeWolf Gawd

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    Thanks much for your fast and detailed response!

    That makes significantly more sense. Not 'allowing' something to run would be... problematic in a way that simply ceasing support for it wouldn't be.

    Yeah. It won't affect me for a while, because I almost never play new games (I'm working on a backlog with games released 10 years ago) and rarely purchase games that aren't at least 80% off...

    But I'll still be building the computer with an eye for getting 4+ years out of it. I'll be pushing 6 years on my current one by the time I build it (I've already passed the 5 year mark). So my first instinct is to nab all the reasonably priced upgrades I can get, of which Win10 is one.

    Okay, this is really what I was concerned about. I've had to tweak games already with Win7, and I don't mind doing that, just so long as the option is still available for Win10.

    I've no plans of getting rid of the Win7 Thinkpad for another 2 years or so, and it can handle everything I need Win7 for until I upgrade it around 2018.

    Thanks! I'd hoped I'd be able to go with Win10 without irritating myself, and it looks like I can. I really didn't want to build a new rig and use an old OS.
     
  4. buhbuhfet

    buhbuhfet Limp Gawd

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    7 , but you will need to block the win10 upgrade and try to avoid installing the spying updates
     
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  5. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    I would personally grab as many W7 licenses as I could before retailers stopped selling them. But for building a new PC I see no reason to not go with W10.
     
  6. Osirus

    Osirus Limp Gawd

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    Definitely Windows 10. I see no reason to still be using 7 now.
     
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  7. buhbuhfet

    buhbuhfet Limp Gawd

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    there is nothing win10 can do that win7 can't, and win7 doesn't spy on you (if you don't install the new telemetry updates),
    also if you have a collection of old games, you should definitely stick to 7, the Kaby Lake not supporting win7 is just a scare tactic to push everyone into using win10
     
  8. athenian200

    athenian200 Gawd

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    Regardless of how you feel about Microsoft's telemetry and monitoring practices, staying with Windows 7 indefinitely is not a viable solution. DirectX 12 is just going to be the first of many nails in the coffin. Sooner or later, drivers for new hardware won't work with Windows 7, Metro apps (which are coming whether you like it or not) won't work with 7, and it won't be an option anymore. Extended support is ending in 2020, and mainstream support ended last year.

    There were plenty of desperate people that kept using Windows XP, made do with 4GB of RAM until it was ridiculous, and then tried to do the POSReady2009 trick to keep getting updates. Before that, there were people who didn't want to get off Windows 98SE and used stuff like KernelEx for ages. And before that, people that hated the Start Menu in Windows 95 and wanted to stick to Windows 3.11 with Program Manager. There's a fine line between not wanting to test immature software, and just shooting yourself in the foot by stubbornly refusing to upgrade. Windows 8.x has come and gone, and the November update was the equivalent of a service pack for Windows 10. It's the line between pragmatism and stubbornness.

    I mean, face it... if you're that unhappy with Microsoft's direction, it's time to start seriously considering switching to Linux or buying a Mac (and I hate Macs, but if you don't want Windows it's really the only alternative out there). You can only make do with a 5-year old OS for so long. Microsoft is not going to let it live as long as Windows XP did.

    The vast majority of people just hear all this yellow tech journalism (much of it funded by Apple, make no mistake and look at where those journalists are getting their money from) about spying and game incompatibility and stick to the oldest versions as long as they can. Even the "bad" versions of Windows like Vista and 8 were not as bad as people made out... usually, it was more a matter of immature drivers, unfamiliar interface, trying to use older XP hardware, and the growing pains associated with a new release. Microsoft actually did an experiment with Windows Mojave and proved that the media had a huge impact on how Vista was perceived long after the problems were resolved. One of the reasons why Windows 7 wasn't a Vista service pack was simply image issues.
     
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  9. OrangeWolf

    OrangeWolf Gawd

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    I assume most of that was directed at the other responses rather than me? I was pretty much on board with your first post, since you addressed the main point of concern (game compatibility tweaking).

    Regardless it's a good point. Though now I do want to read up on this 'spying' crap... even if the fact that people are referring to it as 'spying' makes me suspect propaganda somewhere. Except there's probably a big dose of uncomfortable truth in there - 'telemetry' then is the technical term?

    As for the media backlash regarding Win8... well, I might not have had a primary computer that I used for it, but I did use it on numerous occasions, and I feel happy in my assessment that I didn't like it. At least when it first came out there wasn't a start menu and it seemed a little too optimized for touch screens to be efficient for me using a mouse. I probably would have gotten used to it, but that is at least partly beside the point.

    Good posts everyone! Great to see different opinions.
     
  10. athenian200

    athenian200 Gawd

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    Yeah, I wasn't really directing that at you.

    I really don't blame you for that at all. Windows 10 does send more information to Microsoft than previous versions of Windows, but you have to take that with a grain of salt. People were paranoid that Windows 10 was going to include a keylogger because of something in the technical preview, and that's when all this started. If you hear someone saying that, that's false and it was never in a release version of Windows. However, there appears to be a new issue related to Microsoft resetting some people's privacy settings with an update, but that was actually in error and they actually pulled the update to correct the issue.

    Here are two articles I found on the subject. They were the most objective ones I could find, because a lot of people with these criticisms aren't specific and don't do tests with certain options disabled. Also, a heads up... the Enterprise edition of Windows 10 has a few more privacy options than ordinary versions.

    Even when told not to, Windows 10 just can’t stop talking to Microsoft
    Windows 10’s privacy policy is the new normal

    It's a rather complicated subject, but if you think about it, you have to give up quite a bit of your privacy just to run the majority of applications out there today, or even to surf the web. The vast majority of the information is fairly impersonal or harmless on its own, but aggregation can result in predictions you wouldn't expect. I mean, sure you could always run a hardened version of Linux, use Tor, and do everything over a VPN, but that pretty much means you won't get any kind of modern functionality that people take for granted.
     
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  11. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    If Windows 10 wasnt ugly, didnt convolute ease of use with pushing Metro, allowed you to choose which updates to install and when to install them, allowed you to guarantee preventing telemetry, had a decent start menu and didnt generally leave a bad taste in my mouth, I might think it was ok.
    But all the above is true and there will be a few more things I've forgotten, so I'm sticking with 7 for as long as possible.
    It is the better OS, Windows 10 is too many steps backwards.
     
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  12. Monkey God

    Monkey God Mangina Full of Sand

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    Win7 unless you need something only in W10 like DirectX 12. Privacy issues, automatic driver updates without your input, forced updates, auto removing of apps MS doesn't like. No. NO! Its MINE. MS doesn't get to decide what I do with my OS.
     
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  13. Osirus

    Osirus Limp Gawd

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    Driver updates can be turned off and Windows 10 doesnt "remove apps MS doesnt like"

    This is a classic example of the FUD that small people spew to justify their clinging on to an obsolete OS.
     
  14. Monkey God

    Monkey God Mangina Full of Sand

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    Plenty of people on this forum have had these experiences...I am not making this up.

    Also, explain in precise, specific terms why W7 is obsolete please. List out all the things it can't do that W10 can. I'll wait.
     
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  15. ir0nw0lf

    ir0nw0lf [H]ardness Supreme

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    Might these programs be able to run in compatibility mode or inside a VM? If so then I wouldn't worry about that aspect.

    I certainly won't go so far as to call Win 7 obsolete at this point.

    And to answer your request: DirectX 12 :whistle:
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  16. Osirus

    Osirus Limp Gawd

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    In dont care what dolts on a forum are claiming. On this same forum some guy is claiming "viruses" are causing his volume to slowly drop. This was a piss poor attempt at a bandwagon fallacy on your part.

    It is a fact that driver updates can be turned off and Windows 10 does not "remove apps MS doesnt like."

    Windows 7 is obsolete because it has been superceded by new releases and is no longer under mainstream support.

    This is the same crap that went on 5-6 years ago with people coming up with any excuse under the sun to try and keep people on XP.

    Theres not really any legitimate reason not to go with Windows 10 over 7 for a new PC.
     
  17. Monkey God

    Monkey God Mangina Full of Sand

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    As I already said...

     
  18. Monkey God

    Monkey God Mangina Full of Sand

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    I love it when people just ignore facts they dont like.

    There are plenty of reasons not to upgrade for some people who care about different things than you do...and you can piss off.
     
  19. jimh425

    jimh425 Gawd

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    OrangeWolf, check back later in the year, but as is, I'm decently happy with Windows 10 except for Media Center being removed. I haven't tried every game, but for the most part, you should be able to run any game on Windows 10 ... at least in compatibility mode.
     
  20. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    There's actually a number of things that Windows 10 does over 7 though some will think certain features fluff or stupid for a desktop OS bat these are the things I use every single day on my Windows 10 devices that aren't available on 7.

    • Better window management, support for multiple monitors and high DPI and mix DPI monitor setups
    • Better support for tablets and 2 in 1 devices. My primary personal mobile device is a Surface Book. Windows 7 would be pointless as the host OS on such a device
    • Cortana
    • Windows Hello using facial recognition
    • Better integration with my phone such as notifications , events and text messaging
    • Use of Windows Store apps that don't have Win32 or web equivalents.

    Again, this is just me and I'm not saying any of this is must have for anyone. But the sum of all of these things does result in a much different UX.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
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  21. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    This is lashing out, as it's not really answerable and you know it.

    The concept of "obsolete" is dependent on what the user is doing and what they expect. I for example have become familiar with, and like, some of the ModernUI apps that come with Windows 8+. I use the Mail/Calendar app as part of my daily work flow. I use tiles on my Windows 10 Start menu to access frequently-accessed things (and I even occasionally see something in a live tile that prompts me to click it). Windows 10 also automatically detects and handles installation of many devices as well as stuff like printers. In the mixed-environment I work in where we do not have Windows servers, our printers are *all* IP based, and Win10 can actually find them, figure out what model they are, and get the driver and add the printer with virtually zero effort. The notification center is a nice idea, if not a bit "1.0" in implementation. OneDrive integration means my cloud stuff is right there in the left pane, and my MS account means my settings and wallpaper and other accents are duplicated among all of the Win10 machines I use (I use several).

    There's stuff in Win10 that I just expect to have, and even in other OS's I have versions of these things. OS X has most of this stuff. Popular linux distros have some form of most of this stuff. Windows 7 doesn't have this stuff. There's no mail client, no cloud, no notification center, and a less advanced update system (side note: Windows Update for Win7 is more or less broken and has been for months). Now I know YOU don't care about any of this stuff, and there is a 98% chance you'll reply saying so and there will probably be a "no true scotsman" fallacy in there somewhere. That's fine. Your version of "obsolete" is different than mine, which is different from theirs. That's all good man.

    What we may want to do is figure out what the OP wants and expects, and try to base our recommendations on that, rather than on what we expect.
     
  22. KingRaptor

    KingRaptor [H]Lite

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    Back to answering OP's question: my recommendation would be to go with Windows 7 if you don't have to have some Windows 10 killer feature. You will have the option to upgrade from 7 to 10 if you want to in the future, but if you started with 10 and found you must use some application which only works on 7, you're going to be re-installing as there's no downgrade path.
     
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  23. As with others giving you good advice.

    Unless you need something only available in Win10 (or your hardware is only Win10 compatible), go with Win7.
     
  24. Monkey God

    Monkey God Mangina Full of Sand

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    You make a fair point about asking what OP wants. As most of us have said...unless there is something in W10 you need, stick with W7.

    Also - you're confusing what is BUILT into the OS versus what can be installed.
    Many people dont need or want built in mail or built in cloud. That means walled garden. Install what you want or what 99% of Windows people do, use Outlook or browser based email.

    - flat out wrong
    - deliberately broken and abused by MS to force people to upgrade - and takes away your ability to hold off on updates that can break something.

    W10 is about less control for the user and more for Microsoft. Some people dont give a shit about that...thats fine.
     
  25. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    If you own an amd gpu or want GCN gpu then go with windows 10 the DX11 drivers have been improved more than on win7/8/8.1
     
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  26. JRUHg

    JRUHg Limp Gawd

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    I have win 10. You Defenely want Windows 7 on new computer. Dont ask :shifty:
     
  27. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    Why he should not use Win10,if he wants to use it to play all kind of games that should include DX12 ones
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
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  28. OrangeWolf

    OrangeWolf Gawd

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    Hm, well, first of all I've never used 'compatibility mode' or a VM (Virtual Machine) very much, so I don't know how useful those would be (to whomever mentioned that).

    As for DX12... I get that it's important for new games, but the vast majority of games I have on my 'to play' list were released in 2007-2013. Half of them are playable on my 12" laptop with integrated graphics. Those are the years when I wasn't gaming, and I have a lot to catch up on. I have almost no interest in playing brand new games that would require DX12. Three years from now? Yeah, I'll probably want DX12 for sure. But that seems to be the primary thing people are talking about as Win10's advantage over Win7, and while it'd be nice to have it's not a game changer.

    I don't like the idea of some kind of built in cloud on Win10, unless I can just uninstall it and turn it off. I use SpiderOak for my backups and I have 100% control over it. I don't know if I care about a mail 'app' or not, but it's not something that I feel I need or want. I might use it instead of Outlook, if it's good at managing my four e-mail addresses, but Outlook does fine all things considered. Add in all this required update crap (which plays merry hell with my horrific internet connection) and pretty much everything anyone has said (Metro is still a thing?) makes me think that Win10 will get on my nerves.

    And yet athenian200 makes excellent points about the folly of digging your heels in and refusing to update. I feel like I'm getting old because I want to keep using an OS that I'm comfortable with instead of taking the plunge into something new that /technically/ has plenty of advantages. Sooner or later we'll all going to be upgrading anyway, if not to Win10 then to whatever comes after (or else switch to Mac/Linux, which I don't plan to do at present).

    It just sounds like all the bells & whistles that have been added for Win10 are things I don't care about. Apart from DX12, which I want but don't need, everything sounds more like an irritation (cloud, updates, apps, metro) than an excitement.

    Thanks again for responses everyone! I'm glad the thread took off and is generating discussion.
     
  29. athenian200

    athenian200 Gawd

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    Well, there are ways to postpone or reschedule updates in Windows 10, and you can disable the SkyDrive integration.

    If you really want to use Windows 7, it will probably work for a few more years. I just don't like the idea of using an old OS on new hardware on principle... partly because it was a limiting factor in the past and seems like a waste of potential on some level. Maybe I just don't like the pervasive attitude of people becoming determined to use old stuff and refusing to change lately. It makes me feel like maybe all the people who say the PC is basically a dead platform that's only used by old-fashioned people who don't want to use tablets and smartphones... might have a point. I liked Windows 8, my touchscreen monitor, and the Microsoft Surface because I felt like it was my opportunity to stick it to those people and tell them they didn't know what they were talking about. That the PC and the users really could adapt to the future while retaining a fair bit of backwards compatibility and functionality.

    It's hard to forget that Windows XP lived way too long, and I'm suspecting Windows 7 will do the same. I just wonder how long companies like Microsoft and Intel can last with people on such slow upgrade cycles and rejecting anything new. Maybe most of us really are just too old to embrace change.

    I just don't like the way the majority of people think. Maybe I should stop arguing and accept that the majority of people are so set in their ways that they'll never appreciate anything they didn't grow up with. Most PC users will look to the smartphone generation the way our parents looked listening to vinyl records and flipping through phone books... I wanted to think we were better than that, but I guess you can't escape the human condition.

    I won't try to defend Windows 10 any further. I think I've made my position clear. LOL.
     
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  30. chaos4u

    chaos4u Limp Gawd

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    I reccomend do both, get win 7 install 7 do the free upgrade to 10 activate win10 , then go back to 7 prevent windows 10 upgrade notices, shut off all windows updates and enjoy a clean peaceful windows experience until your forced to move to 10 for some reason. when that time comes your win 10 upgrade will already be activated and your good to go.
     
  31. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    DX12 isnt the onyl advantage, also the AMD drivers are better on DX11.

    the other apps can be disabled and are not an issue, aswell updates. and start menu isnt metro, Windows 7 also wont support CPU newer than Skylake, so there is no really why keep windows 7 if you will use the latest in GPUs and CPUs
     
  32. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Not true.
    Support hasnt been dropped, newer CPUs will still run everything without issue.

    MS wont be providing updated CPU drivers to use newer features of new CPUs on Windows 7.
    That doesnt mean much when newer features are often not used until many years later, or not at all.
    When software can make use of newer features, it will still run fine without using them otherwise they would have a very restricted market.
    The software that does make use of the features early on is likely to be a niche product.
    The OS has no issues that it needs higher performance from the CPU so it doesnt matter from the OS perspective.

    If Intel and AMD provide updated drivers instead, then it doesnt need any consideration.
    It remains to be seen if they will.
    For now its a none issue anyway because no software will use/need the features for some time and when it does, it will still work.
     
  33. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Though it doesn't mean as much for a desktop as mobile devices, Skylake introduced a lot of power management features that are only supported by Windows 10.
     
  34. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    then the last news I saw were older

    the support is about updates and scerity patches
     
  35. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    I have yet to try a game or software that just won't work on Windows 10.

    Actually I've tried a few that have glitches on Windows 7 like StarCraft, that work well on windows 10.
     
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  36. athenian200

    athenian200 Gawd

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    The thing is, Windows 10 banned SecuROM technology (for secu, so a lot of older CD-ROM based games don't work without a no-CD crack. But if you use something like Steam or GOG anyway, it shouldn't make a big difference.

    There are a lot of people out there who just shove their CD-ROM into their system and expect everything to work, and then accuse the computer/OS of being "broken" before reverting back to their old system and spreading this kind of information. The Internet amplifies the majority opinion, whether it's informed or not. There are some people who wouldn't even try installing appropriate versions of DirectX or Visual C++ redistributables when presented with a DLL error.

    I mean, I really think a lot more games would probably get broken between XP and 7 than between 7 and 10.

    Then again, I actually forced a game to 3:2 resolution on my Surface Book by opening the executable in a hex editor and examining some documentation written by someone who got it running in 21:9 mode. Some of them only require editing registry keys for the same effect. So I probably have a few more tricks up my sleeve for getting games to work on newer versions of Windows than the average user would think of trying.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  37. rezerekted

    rezerekted 2[H]4U

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    Thought you can turn Securom back on with the below command? Or is that only for Win7/8? I can't test it because I don't have Win10.

    To start it;

    sc config secdrv start= demand
    sc start secdrv

    To stop it;

    sc stop secdrv
    sc config secdrv start= disabled
     
  38. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    /thread
     
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  39. Vengance_01

    Vengance_01 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just upgraded to Windows 10 after being a longgg time 7 user. If you have already have a 7 key, use that and get a free 10 key and then do a fresh install after. But my 4+ year old Win 7 install upgraded like a champ. No complaints. Everything just works. I do like the more modern feel. Plus future support, DX 12, Win Games that use the new app foundation that needs 10. I see no reason not too...
     
  40. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Logic with no logic, impressive first post.