New Computer Config: Questions

A

AndonSage

Gawd
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Jan 19, 2007
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My current computer (in my sig) is calling "Uncle" over Age of Conan. I was hoping to wait until the new video cards came out to buy a new computer, but I don't think I can wait that long. Getting 8 to 13 FPS in AoC is driving me crazy. This is a list of the parts I'm considering, and a few questions. I'll be using the monitor in my sig, a Soyo 24" 1920 x 1200. Please feel free to comment on any parts choices. All choices have been made based on what I've learned at the [H] :)

  • Case: Antec Performance One P182 Black Mid-Tower Case. I like the way it looks, and it has good cooling.
  • Power Supply: Which of the following would be best? I like the Corsair, as it seems to be the quietest, but it doesn't have 6 pin connectors?
    a. Corsair CMPSU-750TX 750W, 80 PLUS: 21dBA at 450W. Single +12V rail at 60A. Four PCI-e 8 pin. What about video cards that require 6 pin?
    b. PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750W Quad: Single +12V rail at 60A. Two 6-pin PCI-E and two 6/8-pin PCI-E
    c. Thermaltake Toughpower 750W, 80 PLUS w/ Modularized Cable Management: Four +12V rails (max load 18A each, combined 60A). Is modularized really that much better? What about the four +12V rails vs. the other two PSUs with one?
  • CPU, mobo, RAM, HS: Intel Quad-core Q9550, Gigabyte GA-EX38-DS4 motherboard, 4GB (2 x 2GB) OCZ Reaper HPC Edition PC2-8500 DDR2 1066MHz CL 5-5-5-18 SDRAM, ThermalRight Ultra-120 Extreme HS w/ Scythe S-Flex fan: Any problems with overclocking? Any problems fitting the TRUE on this motherboard? I'd like to try for a 3.6GHz overclock, which is why I'm not going with 800MHz RAM. I'm getting an X38 chipset for the reason specified next.
  • Temporary video card: I'm planning to CrossFire two HD 4870's when they become available (or perhaps one 4870x2, depending on reviews), but need a temporary video card in the mean time. I'm thinking an 8800GT 512MB, for my 1920 x 1200 monitor, but there are some less expensive alternatives. Needs to run AoC but doesn't have to be maxed. Which would you choose? Which will give me the best return when I sell it? Anyone have experience with any of these running Age of Conan?
    a. eVGA 8800GT 512MB Superclocked
    b. eVGA 9600GT 512MB KO
    c. Diamond Viper Radeon HD 3870 512MB
  • HDDs: one 320GB WD Caviar SE 16 and one 640GB WD Caviar SE 16 (the new ones with 320GB platters). First drive is for Operating System(s), page file, data files. Second drive for games, graphics, music files, video files. Is there a better way to do this?
  • DVD Burner: Samsung Super-WriteMaster SH-S230N 20x DVD+/-R/RW Dual Layer Burner w/LightScribe (SATA). I haven't ever had a need for two optical drives. No need for Blu-ray, as I have a PS3 and 52" Sony TV so Blu-ray movies are played on the PS3.
  • Operating System: Vista 64-bit.
    a. Any reason for dual boot w/ Windows XP Pro? I have some older games that I occasionally play: Titan Quest, Space Empires 5, Dominions 3, Hearts of Iron 2, Crusader Kings, Rails Across America, Europa Universalis 3, Oblivion. Has anyone had a problem with any of these in Vista 64-bit?
  • Keyboard and Mouse: Saitek Cyborg or Logitech G15 keyboard, I haven't decided yet. Logitech MX-518 mouse.
  • Speakers: I'd like to go with a 5.1 speaker system. Does anyone have experience with either of the following speaker systems?
    a. Logitech X-540 5.1
    b. Altec Lansing VS3251 5.1
Thanks in advance for any help :)
 
I almost forgot one thing... I have a bar-code scanner that I use for my book collection in conjunction with Book Collectorz software, and it uses a serial port for interface. What are my options these days in regards to a serial port? Is it better to get a card with the port, or some kind of cable connector to USB?
 
PSU: You may want to look into a really good PSU. The one with 1x12v rail isn't an option especially if you plan on Crossfire in the future. That Thermaltake PSU would be good.

CPU: Since you plan on overclocking, it would be better to save a few bills and get the Q9450 instead. I don't have experience with fitting the TRUE on that motherboard, hopefully another poster can address this issue.

RAM: I'm not sure how much you are budgeted to, but I would imagine you can get the same speed ram in G. Skill brand and get the same performance

GPU: The 9600 from MIS would work perfect, and it's on sale right now for $154.

HARD DRIVE: Why do you want to load your OS on a separate same speed 320 GB hard drive then on the 640? You really won't notice a speed difference unless you load your OS on a 10k RPM drive. Would be cheaper to just get a 1 TB SATA 3.0 HDD.

I wouldn't dual boot with XP Pro, just avoid the issues all together. I've had good experience with Logitech speakers, but unless your an audiophile I wouldn't worry too much about your speakers. Get a nice powerful sub and you're GTG.
 
PSU: You may want to look into a really good PSU. The one with 1x12v rail isn't an option especially if you plan on Crossfire in the future. That Thermaltake PSU would be good.
Click to expand...
Wow is that bunk, seriously go read JohnnyGuru or something. When a power supply specifies N 12v rails, it almost always means it just has N-way overcurrent protection. I'm too lazy to read the specs for the Thermaltake, but given the crazy video country you're living in you probably want 2x8pin PCIe connectors. Also modular -> extra contact resistance -> extra voltage drop as current increases. Might not be a grand idea in the 700W bracket, but I see lots of people get by with them.

A 9600 at 1920 does leave something to be desired, an 8800gt wouldn't be uncalled for. Don't buy a piece of crap, you might end up sitting on your 'temporary' parts longer than you think.

Klipsch makes great 5.1 sets. If you just want good directional sound for games, $200 headphones are going to be more precise with a good soundcard unless you have a game with badly broken sound.
 
Slakky said:
Wow is that bunk, seriously go read JohnnyGuru or something. When a power supply specifies N 12v rails, it almost always means it just has N-way overcurrent protection.
Click to expand...

Granted he's going to have several hard drives, and wants to crossfire in the future, don't you think several rails would be good for that current protection. Specifically using 1 rail for the VGA cards, 1 for the hard drives. I may have a misconception of how rails work, I'm not very good as far as electricity and the terminology works.

Since when is hte 9600 GT a piece of crap? He should be able to game just fine on that video card.
 
@Cmustang87: All three of those PSU's are considered good. The Corsair is usually recommended. I figure the Q9550 will require less FSB speed to reach the same overclock, which means less heat. Loading an O/S on a separate drive from a game means two drive heads for when the system wants to access both the O/S and game data.

@Slakky: Thanks for the info re: modular, I hadn't known that. My only concern with the Corsair has to do with the 8 pin vs. 6 pin connectors. The speakers I listed I can get for < $70 w/tax & shipping, but I'll check Klipsch.
 
Cmustang87 said:
Granted he's going to have several hard drives, and wants to crossfire in the future, don't you think several rails would be good for that current protection. Specifically using 1 rail for the VGA cards, 1 for the hard drives. I may have a misconception of how rails work, I'm not very good as far as electricity and the terminology works.

Since when is hte 9600 GT a piece of crap? He should be able to game just fine on that video card.
Click to expand...

Regarding power supplies, it's best to focus on the total amperage produced through all of the 12V rails. All three power supplies the OP is considering are good choices, so he should get one based on his preferences.

The 9600GT is a midrange card that is designed to be the replacement to the 8600 series. Though it is a very good card, it struggles against the 8800GT, which struggles (a bit) on its own with a 1920x1200 solution. The 8800GTS is the OP's best choice for a holdover card with that resolution.
 
Yeah I have a 9600GT, and it's a fine card at 1680x1050. At 1920 not so much, especially when you can do 10~20% better for $10.

Also an 18A short is going to catch something on fire. That number is derived from the maximum safe current for those big thick wires coming out of the power supply to the Molex connectors; it wouldn't protect any individual components.
 
@tiraides: Thanks for responding :) I was hoping to hear from either you, silent-circuit, or Danny Bui. It looks like I'd better go with an 8800GTS for now. Hopefully I'll get a good price on a resale. Is there anything else in my config that you would change?

@Mithent: Ah hah! Thanks for the info on the 8 pin. The Corsair is a very good PSU, so the 8-pins are probably the 6+2pin (or at least two of the four). Also thanks for the link regarding the TRUE and mobo compatibility :)
 
Well a bit late to the party but I can still answer a few questions:
- Yes the 8Pin connectors on the Corsair are actually 6+2Pin connectors. You can remove the extra 2pins if you only need a 6Pin connector.
- The 8800GTS 512MB is your best bet for 1920x1200 gameplay.
- As for whether or not a large number of rails is a good thing, read this FAQ about PSUs:
http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgpower/faqs.html
- Drop the Q9550. Total waste of money compared to the Q9450. The only difference between the two CPUs is that the Q9550 has an extra .5 multiplier. Yet you have to pay an extra $200 for that. Not worth it at all. The Q9450 is your best bet.
- Also no point going with the expensive Reaper RAM. This G.Skill is only 66Mhz slower and $37 cheaper:
G.SKILL F2-8000CL5D-4GBPQ 2 x 2GB DDR2 1000 RAM - $85

With that RAM, you can still hit 4.0Ghz with the Q9450:
Multi x Actual FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
8 × 333Mhz = 2.6Ghz, DDR2-667 <<== Stock speeds
8 × 400Mhz = 3.2Ghz, DDR2-800 <<== Easy OC
8 × 450Mhz = 3.6Ghz, DDR2-900 <<== Good OC
8 × 500Mhz = 4.0Ghz, DDR2-1000 <<== Excellent OC

- Only reason to dual boot w/ Windows XP Pro is if a certain app or game of yours isn't compatible with Vista 64bit. Unfortunately, I have not tried of the games you mention in Vista 64bit so cannot comment on whether or not they actually work.
- As for the serial item, I recommend just getting a USB to Serial cable. Here's an egghunt:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=Serial+to+USB&x=0&y=0
 
Danny Bui said:
Yes the 8Pin connectors on the Corsair are actually 6+2Pin connectors. You can remove the extra 2pins if you only need a 6Pin connector.
Click to expand...

I found the Corsair CMPSU-750TX product page after I posted the first message, and they have pictures of the connectors, which show 6+2. I should have checked that before asking.

Danny Bui said:
The 8800GTS 512MB is your best bet for 1920x1200 gameplay.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've come to that conclusion, although it's more than I wanted to spend on a "temporary" video card. I've decided to choose an 8800GTS 512MB from a vendor that has a step-up program, in case the HD 4000 series cards don't work out and I end up getting one of the new nVidia cards.

Danny Bui said:
Drop the Q9550. Total waste of money compared to the Q9450. The only difference between the two CPUs is that the Q9550 has an extra .5 multiplier. Yet you have to pay an extra $200 for that. Not worth it at all. The Q9450 is your best bet.
Click to expand...

Well, I figured the lower FSB speed using the Q9550 would produce less heat, and not kill the CPU as fast. Is that not correct? I don't have a problem getting the Q9450 and saving the money if I'm wrong on that.

Danny Bui said:
Also no point going with the expensive Reaper RAM. This G.Skill is only 66Mhz slower and $37 cheaper. With that RAM, you can still hit 4.0Ghz with the Q9450.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm purchasing the computer through AVA Direct, and in the configurator they only had the G.Skill in 800MHz RAM, and no RAM in 1000MHz. The OCZ was the least expensive 2GB 1066GHz RAM sticks. However, I'm asking if they can get the G.Skill 1000MHz. I do remember the lessons I learned from you regarding RAM speed :) I stopped a friend of mine from purchasing high-speed DDR3 RAM using your prior examples :)

Danny Bui said:
Only reason to dual boot w/ Windows XP Pro is if a certain app or game of yours isn't compatible with Vista 64bit.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's why I listed those games. I did get confirmation on my guild forum that most of those will work. I just need to find out about Space Empires V and Dominions 3 now, although even if those don't work, two games isn't worth the money for another O/S. I can always play those on my current computer.

Danny Bui said:
As for the serial item, I recommend just getting a USB to Serial cable. Here's an egghunt
Click to expand...

Alrighty, thanks :) If anyone has one that they've used and recommend, please let me know.

Another issue has cropped up... one of my friends told me about getting 8GB of RAM instead of 4GB, and gave me a link to this article Vista Workshop: More RAM, More Speed on Tom's Hardware. The article says that 8GB is better than 4GB for Vista 64-bit. The problem is that I've been told that overclocking with 4 sticks of RAM is tougher than using only 2 sticks. So is the 8GB performance increase worth a lower overclock? And how much would the overclock be affected?

Thanks for the help!
 
I can't give you an estimate as to how much your overclocking would be affected, but using all four RAM slots stresses the motherboard's memory control hub (or MCH), which may or may not affect stability while overclocking.

Additionally, 8GB is useless for most people because few programs/games actually utilize that much RAM. (I'm ignoring the points that THG makes in its article because I need more time to fully understand them.) Basically, unless you're heavy into Photoshop or Maya, you do a lot of video and/or 3D graphics editing, or you run a lot of Virtual Machines, you're not going to see much benefit (if any) with 8GB of RAM.
 
AndonSage said:
Well, I figured the lower FSB speed using the Q9550 would produce less heat, and not kill the CPU as fast. Is that not correct? I don't have a problem getting the Q9450 and saving the money if I'm wrong on that.
Click to expand...

You're wrong -- the CPU won't produce less heat, the clock speed determines heat, not FSB. Yes, the northbridge and southbridge will run a bit hotter, but it should be a non-issue. It will not effect the longevity of your components at all.

I wouldn't buy from AVA direct with all the crap I've heard about them over the last couple months. They seem to be in serious trouble over there.
 
tiraides said:
Additionally, 8GB is useless for most people because few programs/games actually utilize that much RAM. (I'm ignoring the points that THG makes in its article because I need more time to fully understand them.) Basically, unless you're heavy into Photoshop or Maya, you do a lot of video and/or 3D graphics editing, or you run a lot of Virtual Machines, you're not going to see much benefit (if any) with 8GB of RAM.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why I originally planned on 4GB. But it's the points made in the article that now have me wondering. It seems that they are basically saying that with a 64-bit O/S and 4GB RAM, that you are actually getting _less_ usable RAM than with a 32-bit O/S and 4GB RAM due to the increase in variable lengths.

I've never seen this information talked about here, and was hoping someone could clue me in. The following is the paragraph that's the crux of the matter:

The upshot is that it doesn't make sense to install a 64 bit version of Vista in order to better utilize 4 GB of memory simply because the 32 bit version would only recognize 3.5 GB. The problem is that while it is true that you would "gain" the missing memory, you would also immediately lose it to the system due to the 64 bit version's larger memory footprint. Thus, using a 64 bit version really only makes sense with larger memory sizes.
 
AndonSage said:
I almost forgot one thing... I have a bar-code scanner that I use for my book collection in conjunction with Book Collectorz software, and it uses a serial port for interface. What are my options these days in regards to a serial port? Is it better to get a card with the port, or some kind of cable connector to USB?
Click to expand...

Actually, if you're going with a Gigabyte board, there's a COM port header on there. So, all you'll need is a DB9 (serial) connector for it. This is the one I used:

http://www.directron.com/cbl-combo.html
Cable Set for Computer Motherboards, IDE, floppy, and LPT/COM ports - $6
 
AndonSage said:
Well, I figured the lower FSB speed using the Q9550 would produce less heat, and not kill the CPU as fast. Is that not correct? I don't have a problem getting the Q9450 and saving the money if I'm wrong on that.
Click to expand...

Not correct. What determines whether or not the CPU is killed faster is the Core voltage you set. Even if I'm wrong about the lower FSB not having an effect, if done properly, a good overclock will not limit the lifespan of a CPU at all. So save your money and go with the Q9450.

And there isn't a definite answer as to how much your OC will be limited with 4 sticks of RAM. There are some limitations that's for sure but how much that limitation is based on a case by case basis.

As for the 8GB RAM item, that THG article is basically saying what many on this forum already know and what tiraides has already said: Get 8GB of RAM if you do ton of multi-tasking with RAM hungry apps. For gaming, 4GB of RAM is all that you need.

Also that THG does not show exactly how 8GB of RAM will improve speeds. Nor does it show how exactly the larger memory footprint affects the RAM usage. One thing to remember about Vista is that it does preload certain frequently used files into RAM.
 
silent-circuit said:
You're wrong -- the CPU won't produce less heat, the clock speed determines heat, not FSB. Yes, the northbridge and southbridge will run a bit hotter, but it should be a non-issue. It will not effect the longevity of your components at all.
Click to expand...

Ah! Ok, thanks, I'll be saving a couple hundred dollars :)

silent-circuit said:
I wouldn't buy from AVA direct with all the crap I've heard about them over the last couple months. They seem to be in serious trouble over there.
Click to expand...

Actually, the "crap" is from two people who have had unsatisfactory experiences with AVA Direct (and also the AVA employee who spammed the forums without the consent of AVA management). Besides the fact that people have had unsatisfactory experiences with other companies like Velocity Micro and Maingear in the past, many people have had a totally satisfactory experience with AVA Direct (and VM and Maingear), including my father and two of my friends. I have no problems ordering from AVA Direct, and I will be posting my experience (whether good or bad) in the Computers & Gadgets section on [H] when I place my order, and following up through receiving and using the computer.

I have been following AVA Direct since Jan 2007 when I first came across the [H] and their review of an AVA computer system. Throughout this time, the good highly outweighs the bad, and AVA's prices are the best I've seen from any reputable boutique vendor (e.g. CyberPower and IBuyPower <> reputable).

I respect your opinion not to do business with AVA Direct, and I really respect your opinions and experience in regards to computer configurations, but I will be ordering from AVA Direct and I am highly confident that I will receive a first rate computer and experience.
 
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